Corner crossing win

I wonder how much the ranch value will drop now. Lol. I have family in Elk Mountain and Hanna. I remember the challenge of that mountain from when my dad hunted in the area 35 years ago.
 
81C8CE73-DE37-4BD0-8802-E15CC7687718.jpeg
 
BuzzH said:
Read the judgement and the UIA...the judge applied the UIA.

It's unbelievable the nonsense arguments some people come up with in an attempt to justify keeping the public from legal access to public lands.

The good guys won...and won big.
Click to expand...
I beleive you may have read more into what I asked. It was a question not an argument. Dont be so thin skinned, I agree with the judgment just as most sportsman do.
 
Question: as of now, could I or anyone else go to Eshelman's and corner cross? Rockhound, .22 plinking, etc.I'd absolutely love to see Ranch Mgr Grende's tough guy act.....show me his and I'll show him mine.

We're all sure Fred's paid henchmen will file appeal but from this moment forward, can we now corner cross?
 
If they can for sure corner cross now, it would be good to organize a group of people to go to the same spot and politely cross the corners. There will likely be people from his side watching very closely to make sure there’s no screw ups and if it’s planned to separate the the groups by distance, location and time frame, they will be so frustrated and reacting badly that it will be funny to watch and listen to. It would be important to not make any mistakes and be friendly when doing it because that could put the kybosh to crossing in the future if you’re hostile. The confrontation would be fun because it lends itself to an opportunity to explain to the landowner that he is ignorant to the law and I love calling someone ignorant. It amuses me because when done in a nice way, it feels like an insult when it’s not.
 
I would like to propose we at MM start a "Waypoint 6" campaign. Everyone who has OnX should find a spot on Eschelman's ranch and drop a waypoint and title it Waypoint 6. Would be a hoot for defense attorneys to subpoena OnX for the data and show how many Waypoint 6's are on the ranch.
 
Savage110 said:
I would like to propose we at MM start a "Waypoint 6" campaign. Everyone who has OnX should find a spot on Eschelman's ranch and drop a waypoint and title it Waypoint 6. Would be a hoot for defense attorneys to subpoena OnX for the data and show how many Waypoint 6's are on the ranch.
Click to expand...
While at it, draw up some lewd polygons, messages, and anything else you can think
of to drive home the point that waypoint 6 is a joke. Case should be tossed with extreme prejudice.
 
Katoom said:
While at it, draw up some lewd polygons, messages, and anything else you can think
of to drive home the point that waypoint 6 is a joke. Case should be tossed with extreme prejudice.
Click to expand...
Love Onx. But kinda scary that any information about you Onx has, becomes public knowledge.
 
waypoint 6 is meaningless and I think even Freddie's clever shysters know it. Nobody witnessed an actual trespassing and of course we all know that a pin can be dropped anywhere.

I wouldn't doubt that a slip of a thumb on the screen inadvertently created waypoint 6 but regardless, it's pretty much game over for Eshelman. PHUK you, Fred!
 
BuzzH said:
Read the judgement and the UIA...the judge applied the UIA.

It's unbelievable the nonsense arguments some people come up with in an attempt to justify keeping the public from legal access to public lands.

The good guys won...and won big.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all your hard work Buzz so we can all enjoy hunting!!!!
 
I've dropped waypoints in the field that landed in the wrong place on the map when I looked at it at home on my computer. They have never been off by more than about a 100 yards. Map accuracy is very dependent on cell service. Yes, you can download maps offline, but there is still a margin of error in the equation.

More often than not, the landowners fences are off by more than onx. My fence line is off by 50 feet behind my house on one corner from our latest survey and my onx maps. My neighbor like the free grass for his horses.

Should we go by fences or data? Every game warden or conservation officer uses onx, so I prefer using data to cover by bases.

Obviously, this will get appealed. Fingers crossed that this ruling sticks.

Can states consider corner crossing illegal in state wildlife code if federal case law says it is legal? Supremacy?
 
I’ve got a great idea:

Why don’t we all be respectful and polite to bordering land owners. Why don’t we celebrate this ruling by taking advantage of the access while crossing like respectful humans. Why don’t we act like we wish the landowners would have acted to begin with. The ruling is only a good one if we don’t screw it up now.
 
lif said:
I’ve got a great idea:

Why don’t we all be respectful and polite to bordering land owners.
Click to expand...
Are you saying public land users are not being respectful? I sense that you mean in the past and currently with this ruling there are folks behaving badly. I don't agree.

All I see in the bad behavior department is a rich landowner who wants to keep us off public land, his henchmen harassing lawful sportsman and a county attorney in someone's pocket.

Now where is this campfire we are supposed to all sing around?
 
lif said:
I’ve got a great idea:

Why don’t we all be respectful and polite to bordering land owners. Why don’t we celebrate this ruling by taking advantage of the access while crossing like respectful humans. Why don’t we act like we wish the landowners would have acted to begin with. The ruling is only a good one if we don’t screw it up now.
Click to expand...
I think we deserve a victory lap/grave dance for a few days at least. This guy was a bully and was trying to sue 4 average Joes for $7.75M. I'm not too concerned with being respectful to him at the moment. Now other landowners, sure, but remember these guys were not giving us access and Eschelman was not the only landowner calling the sheriff on hunters trying to access public.
 
jm77 said:
Are you saying public land users are not being respectful? I sense that you mean in the past and currently with this ruling there are folks behaving badly. I don't agree.

All I see in the bad behavior department is a rich landowner who wants to keep us off public land, his henchmen harassing lawful sportsman and a county attorney in someone's pocket.

Now where is this campfire we are supposed to all sing around?
Click to expand...
I didn’t mean any of us are have been disrespectful. I was responding to some of the replies on this thread that we get masses out there crossing lines as a big FU. Or any other ways to harass the landowner. I’m by no means defending the landowner, but I’m not a proponent of childish retaliation that we might see from the Libs. Carry on, I’m on your side.
 
lif said:
I didn’t mean any of us are have been disrespectful. I was responding to some of the replies on this thread that we get masses out there crossing lines as a big FU. Or any other ways to harass the landowner. I’m by no means defending the landowner, but I’m not a proponent of childish retaliation that we might see from the Libs. Carry on, I’m on your side.
Click to expand...
All I saw was somebody saying that everyone should create a waypoint on Eshelmanns ranch, no one said to step foot on his ranch
 
lif said:
I’ve got a great idea:

Why don’t we all be respectful and polite to bordering land owners. Why don’t we celebrate this ruling by taking advantage of the access while crossing like respectful humans. Why don’t we act like we wish the landowners would have acted to begin with. The ruling is only a good one if we don’t screw it up now.
Click to expand...
WTF? No, you don't have a great idea. But to please you, should we all kiss Eshelman's ring? You think that entering public land is still at the command of these rich landowners and anything but paying pure homage to the Eshelman types would be to "Screw it Up"? Again, WTF?
 
wy incognito said:
WTF? No, you don't have a great idea. But to please you, should we all kiss Eshelman's ring? You think that entering public land is still at the command of these rich landowners and anything but paying pure homage to the Eshelman types would be to "Screw it Up"? Again, WTF?
Click to expand...
Nope. I didn’t say anything about kissing ass, nor did I defend the dumbass who tried to sue in court. I just see guys talking about having mass gatherings in the mindset of pissing off the guy who pissed us off. No need to be sensitive, I’m just encouraging folks to focus on the victory of access, not the opportunity of revenge. I’m 100% in support of public access, and 100% against land locked public land. I just want to respect the landowners as well. Not all checkerboard landowners are like Eshelman. Many are great people just living their lives.
 
andrew12gauge said:
All I saw was somebody saying that everyone should create a waypoint on Eshelmanns ranch, no one said to step foot on his ranch
Click to expand...
That was my post where I made the suggestion. I did so because Eschelman is still suing the M O. boys for a Waypoint that was on their OnX. SO lets all show the court ANYONE can drop a Waypoint on his ranch from ANYWHERE.
 
lif said:
Nope. I didn’t say anything about kissing ass, nor did I defend the dumbass who tried to sue in court. I just see guys talking about having mass gatherings in the mindset of pissing off the guy who pissed us off. No need to be sensitive, I’m just encouraging folks to focus on the victory of access, not the opportunity of revenge. I’m 100% in support of public access, and 100% against land locked public land. I just want to respect the landowners as well. Not all checkerboard landowners are like Eshelman. Many are great people just living their lives.
Click to expand...
You could also be taking about my post. If you look closely at it, I used words like friendly, polite, and non hostile. The complete opposite of FU to the landowner but delivery of an important message. I did sound like a bit of a troll when predicting their response and the humor I would find in the situation, but I still deserve points for the other words I used to keep it from escalating.
 
Captain_coues said:
You could also be taking about my post. If you look closely at it, I used words like friendly, polite, and non hostile. The complete opposite of FU to the landowner but delivery of an important message. I did sound like a bit of a troll when predicting their response and the humor I would find in the situation, but I still deserve points for the other words I used to keep it from escalating.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.
 
lif said:
Nope. I didn’t say anything about kissing ass, nor did I defend the dumbass who tried to sue in court. I just see guys talking about having mass gatherings in the mindset of pissing off the guy who pissed us off. No need to be sensitive, I’m just encouraging folks to focus on the victory of access, not the opportunity of revenge. I’m 100% in support of public access, and 100% against land locked public land. I just want to respect the landowners as well. Not all checkerboard landowners are like Eshelman. Many are great people just living their lives.
Click to expand...
totally agree. I - we - need to stay off of private, but should be allowed to corner cross. Be nice for the state to put a pin on those corners to make it easier to corner cross legally.

When I go to hunt, I try VERY hard to not trespass and do everything legally. It can be difficult to ascertain boundaries when fences are off by hundreds of feet or corner is not marked.

Love the direction public access is going. Sure wish Utah would get on board with stream access.
 
Might be a great eagle scout project? Build and install access ladders? Take access yes money?
My thought is if the F&G are involved then it leaves out the guess work? Obviously all access could not be laddered but the most controversial could.

FWIW, I hunted 125 for elk a few years back and a landowner gave me access to corner cross and hunt BLM. Shot a nice 6point. His only asks... it was a 1 time deal and the bull had to be less than 350 because he had hunters that week. Sent him a gift basket for Christmas as thanks. Have not asked again.....and the bull was 315 type.
20161202_155443.jpg
 
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treedagain said:
Might be a great eagle scout project? Build and install access ladders? Take access yes money?
My thought is if the F&G are involved then it leaves out the guess work? Obviously all access could not be laddered but the most controversial could.

FWIW, I hunted 125 for elk a few years back and a landowner gave me access to corner cross and hunt BLM. Shot a nice 6point. His only asks... it was a 1 time deal and the bull had to be less than 350 because he had hunters that week. Sent him a gift basket for Christmas as thanks. Have not asked again.....and the bull was 315 type.
View attachment 111636
Click to expand...
Many of those corners have no fences, just a survey marker and many aren’t even marked. This is Not something just any Boy Scout should be involved with but those competent with OnX could certainly find the corner but if they screw up it might result in unfavorable outcome. This is best left to competent surveyors. Damn nice bull.
 
lif said:
Nope. I didn’t say anything about kissing ass, nor did I defend the dumbass who tried to sue in court. I just see guys talking about having mass gatherings in the mindset of pissing off the guy who pissed us off. No need to be sensitive, I’m just encouraging folks to focus on the victory of access, not the opportunity of revenge. I’m 100% in support of public access, and 100% against land locked public land. I just want to respect the landowners as well. Not all checkerboard landowners are like Eshelman. Many are great people just living their lives.
Click to expand...
lif said:
Fair enough.
Click to expand...

You are right. Most landowners don’t deserve that. Something about this guy making it a 7 million dollar big deal seems worthy of this kind of show. I would agree that we don’t need to stick this in the craw of others.
 
People float down the rivers in innertubes and air boats and the ground is private. This is the same concept. Fishing a private dock or rip rap put in by a land owner on public water. Hell people access land locked public land by water all time. If this case went the other way it would of opened up millions of law suits for similar situations. Is google trespassing with there drones mapping out land? Is elon musk in my air space with star link? If the land owner thinks he was buying the public check board, surface water in rivers and air space. He is not that bright. This is a win and the way it should be. Hopefully they spell it out black and white. If they do I'm burning my points in Wyoming.
 
Nice présidence!
goforbroke said:
This is huge for other states as this is a federal law, not state. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong? I was comfortable corner crossing in Wyoming before this, but does this open up Colorado, Montana and other states? This decision does not constitute a law. It's a court decision that sets precedence. A good one for sure!
Click to expand...
 
You can pretty much guarantee almost every land owner in Wyoming has heard about this.
Gonna be interesting to see if anyone tries to
Press trespass issues with hunters this year.
 
Judge Skavdahl is a judge in the 10th Circuit. States in the 10th Circuit are Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Oklahoma, Kansas, and New Mexico. Just because this might be binding (pending appeal) in the 10th Circuit doesn't necessarily mean it will be binding in the 9th Circuit for states like Montana, California, Arizona, Nevada, etc.

You still may get sued even in Wyoming for civil trespass. That would be the case if the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals finds error in the judge's decision and doesn't affirm. Point being, unless you have unlimited financial resources you may want to let this play out.

It would really help if Iron Bar Holdings loses its appeal, appeals to SCOTUS, and the court decides not to hear the case. That would be a good sign for hunters in other states out of the 10th Circuit to start jumping corners.
 
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This is a battle that's been won, but the war is not over.

Full disclosure - I've never hunted Elk Mountain, all my buddies in Laramie always talked about using a helicopter to access it though.
And while Eshelman seems like a real tool, I used to work for his attorney and he's a good dude (and a hunter).

Though I wouldn't dare try to do any corner hopping yet, the ruling will definitely embolden some in Wyoming to try it this fall. I'll be curious to see if any new fights over it come to light after this season.
 
I think even more interesting will be whether sheriff's will be writing any tickets this fall/winter in Wyo?
 
I'm watching this very close. My guess is that an appeal will take at least another year. The court system is backlogged at all levels. I do hope this ruling stands. But, I don't have that much faith in the court system. As for what Sheriff's will do, my guess would be the bare minimum unless there is clear evidence against the hunter and/or the hunter did something criminal in nature. Hunters need to tread lightly this fall in Wyo.
 
Bookhead said:
They would be violating the law. They can't obstruct access
Click to expand...
Not true. If there's no easement, they're allowed to use whatever fence they want. The state would need to sue for legal access. The judge said you can cross if you don't come in contact with the property. The fence is their property.

Of course, that would open up a whole new legal problem if someone were to get hurt crossing a tall of razor wire fence.
 
DBLung said:
Not true. If there's no easement, they're allowed to use whatever fence they want. The state would need to sue for legal access. The judge said you can cross if you don't come in contact with the property. The fence is their property.

Of course, that would open up a whole new legal problem if someone were to get hurt crossing a tall of razor wire fence.
Click to expand...

They ain't going to do tall fence. Keeps the deer/elk out as well
 
DBLung said:
Not true. If there's no easement, they're allowed to use whatever fence they want. The state would need to sue for legal access. The judge said you can cross if you don't come in contact with the property. The fence is their property.

Of course, that would open up a whole new legal problem if someone were to get hurt crossing a tall of razor wire fence.
Click to expand...
What if the fence was BLM? And how would you know. Most ranchers expect the BLM to pay for the fencing.
 
treedagain said:
What if the fence was BLM? And how would you know. Most ranchers expect the BLM to pay for the fencing.
Click to expand...
I can't answer for all landowners or what happens in but can tell you that we own 1000 acres of land that borders a highway and some public state land. The fence along the highway is maintained by the state. The fence that borders the state land owned and maintained by us. We have no corners that would constitute a corner crossing issue.
 
Most hunters can hardly hit their a$$ cheeks with both hands, let alone find a monument in the dark and step across it diagonally…… Lol
 
Mallardsx2 said:
Most hunters can hardly hit their a$$ cheeks with both hands, let alone find a monument in the dark and step across it diagonally…… Lol
Click to expand...
Well, the good thing is you don’t have to prove your innocence. They have to prove your guilt.
Most farmers and ranchers wouldn’t be able to find the damn monument either they’re probably going off where their grandpa who was drunk on peppermint schnapps set the corner fence post.
 
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DBLung said:
Not true. If there's no easement, they're allowed to use whatever fence they want. The state would need to sue for legal access. The judge said you can cross if you don't come in contact with the property. The fence is their property.

Of course, that would open up a whole new legal problem if someone were to get hurt crossing a tall of razor wire fence.
Click to expand...
Nope, unlawful inclosures act is part of this case.
wyofile.com

Case history makes it clear: Locking out the public is illegal - WyoFile

The law provides humans, animals and wildlife access to federal public lands, Parsons opines. Court challenges have clarified this.
wyofile.com wyofile.com
 
DBLung said:
Not true. If there's no easement, they're allowed to use whatever fence they want. The state would need to sue for legal access. The judge said you can cross if you don't come in contact with the property. The fence is their property.

Of course, that would open up a whole new legal problem if someone were to get hurt crossing a tall of razor wire fence.
Click to expand...
Not true is right.

The fence is not private property at a corner. It's a shared fence just like it's a shared corner.
 
I'm heading to the Shirley Mountains in a few days to archery elk hunt. I keep reading conflicting reports on whether it's currently OK to corner cross there or not. If it's OK, do you really need a ladder to play it safe or not?
 
fallguy said:
I'm heading to the Shirley Mountains in a few days to archery elk hunt. I keep reading conflicting reports on whether it's currently OK to corner cross there or not. If it's OK, do you really need a ladder to play it safe or not?
Click to expand...

I read the other day that you only need a pole-vaulting stick.

OIP.jpg
 
fallguy said:
I'm heading to the Shirley Mountains in a few days to archery elk hunt. I keep reading conflicting reports on whether it's currently OK to corner cross there or not. If it's OK, do you really need a ladder to play it safe or not?
Click to expand...
Most of those corners won’t have fences on the Shirley’s. The ruling by the Federal Judge said the Unlawful Enclosure act does not allow blocking at corners so if there’s a fence be polite and don’t damage it but you’re clear to cross any corner whether fenced or not.
 
jims said:
I would certainly make sure you are confident with your gps in 16. The Q watch their boundaries pretty close. I remember a couple archery guys in 16 that got in big do-do a few years ago!
Click to expand...
Yea I heard they have security out there 24/7 with drones and thermal imaging. Area 16 sucks anyway lol
 
If they do most likely using them to "move cows"
at night.
Might be a COI to fly them when they have hunters on the ranch?
 
I guess I'm wrong. The Q and other ranches hardly have any acres in 16. You might as well leave your gps and OnX at home....won't need them because there is so much public land. The Q and other landowners really don't care if you cross their property where there aren't fences and no trespassing signs.

By the way, I also just made it up that 2 archery guys got trespassing fines several years ago!
 
jims said:
I guess I'm wrong. The Q and other ranches hardly have any acres in 16. You might as well leave your gps and OnX at home....won't need them because there is so much public land. The Q and other landowners really don't care if you cross their property where there aren't fences and no trespassing signs.

By the way, I also just made it up that 2 archery guys got trespassing fines several years ago!
Click to expand...
How much was your trespassing fine?
 
Which ranch has not? Do they all? I have seen more than a few in Wyoming. Saw a mountain of fence posts and wire. Unit 30 elk. Replacing fence between ranch and public land. Not saying it's wrong, but when a rancher claims it is his fence how would you know?
 
I hunted Unit 108 WY in ‘24. The added concern over this rule/ruling took the fun out of it. Glad to be hunting a unit that is 95% public and accessible.

There were a lot of elk to watch last year. The hat private sure holds them. I do look forward to good news on this ruling.
 

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