Utah muzzleloader BS

pauns08 said:

So what is our retarded utah DWR thinking in the new muzzy scope rules? After shooting quite a few days this summer and not being near as accurate as I'd like with a 1x scope, open sights, and also the Williams precision globe sight I've decided they all suck past about 150 yards. Before this year I was shooting a half inch group at 100 yards and 400 yards was darn near a chip shot with the 4-12 power scope that I had on it and now I'm pretty happy just hitting a 10 inch paper plate at 150 yards. So does the dwr really think that the select few guys that were shooting their muzzleloaders 500+ yards are going to completely decimate the deer herd? Well I can tell you the guys shooting 500 yards knew what they were doing and were quite accurate, now you're going to have everyone shooting at deer at 200-300 yards where really nobody has any business shooting at a deer at 200-300 yards with the new rules. Now before anyone says "I can accurately shoot 300+ yards with the new rules" no, no you can't. You might be able to luck into a 12 inch group but to me that's not considered accurate enough to ethically take an animal. So why not let us have the most accurate weapon we can have?

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TheButcher said:

Are you an inexperienced hunter? Unable to get close enough to be accurate? Or just lazy? Do you want some lessons on how to shoot open sights? Just because YOU can’t shoot accurately with open sights, doesn’t mean others can’t.

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2lumpy said:

If they are going to allow “long range” muzzleloaders, they should allow the optics to make them accurate. To allow one without the other is an ethical quagmire. Classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Not my fight these days but Colorado has this one set up as Utah’s was intended to be……. at its inception. Open sight, round ball, black power.

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pauns08 said:

No not inexperienced just would like to ethically kill a deer, I've limited my range to 150 yards. Not that I need to explain anything to you

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TheButcher said:

No, you don’t need to explain anything to me… but you did come onto an Internet forum, post a whiny comment and are complaining like a 17yr old whose parents said he couldn’t use the car this weekend. Learn to ride a bike bud.

If you can’t hold 2” groups at 150 yards with open sights, you need some lessons. Happy to teach you… that is, if you can find a ride to the range. If you’re mom can’t drop you off then maybe take a bus.

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pauns08 said:

So what is our retarded utah DWR thinking in the new muzzy scope rules? After shooting quite a few days this summer and not being near as accurate as I'd like with a 1x scope, open sights, and also the Williams precision globe sight I've decided they all suck past about 150 yards. Before this year I was shooting a half inch group at 100 yards and 400 yards was darn near a chip shot with the 4-12 power scope that I had on it and now I'm pretty happy just hitting a 10 inch paper plate at 150 yards. So does the dwr really think that the select few guys that were shooting their muzzleloaders 500+ yards are going to completely decimate the deer herd? Well I can tell you the guys shooting 500 yards knew what they were doing and were quite accurate, now you're going to have everyone shooting at deer at 200-300 yards where really nobody has any business shooting at a deer at 200-300 yards with the new rules. Now before anyone says "I can accurately shoot 300+ yards with the new rules" no, no you can't. You might be able to luck into a 12 inch group but to me that's not considered accurate enough to ethically take an animal. So why not let us have the most accurate weapon we can have?

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Mtngoat690 said:

Just out of curiosity....... why do you choose to muzzle loader hunt? Season it runs, the challenge, better draw odds, or what made you decide to put in to hunt with a muzzle loader?

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LIK2HNT said:

Remember years ago when the Mt. Dutton and other MZ hunts were after the rifle hunt. I enjoyed that hunt. Wish they would bring hunts like that back even if it was for side locks only.

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LIK2HNT said:

Remember years ago when the Mt. Dutton and other MZ hunts were after the rifle hunt. I enjoyed that hunt. Wish they would bring hunts like that back even if it was for side locks only.

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pauns08 said:

So what is our retarded utah DWR thinking in the new muzzy scope rules? After shooting quite a few days this summer and not being near as accurate as I'd like with a 1x scope, open sights, and also the Williams precision globe sight I've decided they all suck past about 150 yards. Before this year I was shooting a half inch group at 100 yards and 400 yards was darn near a chip shot with the 4-12 power scope that I had on it and now I'm pretty happy just hitting a 10 inch paper plate at 150 yards. So does the dwr really think that the select few guys that were shooting their muzzleloaders 500+ yards are going to completely decimate the deer herd? Well I can tell you the guys shooting 500 yards knew what they were doing and were quite accurate, now you're going to have everyone shooting at deer at 200-300 yards where really nobody has any business shooting at a deer at 200-300 yards with the new rules. Now before anyone says "I can accurately shoot 300+ yards with the new rules" no, no you can't. You might be able to luck into a 12 inch group but to me that's not considered accurate enough to ethically take an animal. So why not let us have the most accurate weapon we can have?

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pauns08 said:

I chose muzzy mostly for the season dates and I love being out in September listening to bulls bugle while I hunt deer and also because I hunt spike elk in the same areas I muzzy hunt so I can stay camped in about the same spots for about 20 days straight. And like mallard says where are the 2" groups at 200 yards with open sights at cause you're full of sh*t on that hell the sight covers the entire target. It's one thing to talk sh*t and another thing to do it butcher. My guess is you haven't done it cause you sound like a fool thinking you can consistently do it. Have a good day I'm out, 90% of you are pricks.

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2lumpy said:

If they are going to allow “long range” muzzleloaders, they should allow the optics to make them accurate. To allow one without the other is an ethical quagmire. Classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Not my fight these days but Colorado has this one set up as Utah’s was intended to be……. at its inception. Open sight, round ball, black power.

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pauns08 said:

Have a good day I'm out, 90% of you are pricks.

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Bluehair said:

Ok, I’m confused. In CO, conicals (no sabots) and BP substitutes (loose only) ARE legal. So is 209 ignition.

Not sure what your point was, but about the only difference between CO and UT is no scopes. Which means dudes shooting round balls from a sidelock are still in the game.

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2lumpy said:

Blue, I should have kept my mouth shut, if I could take back my comment, I would. All that is going to come out in of this is a bunch of useless bickering about water that’s long been under the bridge.

You’re right, I said it incorrectly. I apologize.

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TheButcher said:

No, you don’t need to explain anything to me… but you did come onto an Internet forum, post a whiny comment and are complaining like a 17yr old whose parents said he couldn’t use the car this weekend. Learn to ride a bike bud.

If you can’t hold 2” groups at 150 yards with open sights, you need some lessons. Happy to teach you… that is, if you can find a ride to the range. If you’re mom can’t drop you off then maybe take a bus.

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pauns08 said:

. Have a good day I'm out, 90% of you are pricks.

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Cam@strawberry said:

Mr. The Butcher sir, I will gladly bring drinks and snacks for your time. 2” open site group at 150 is pro level shooting and I would like to be exposed to that kind of excellence.

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pauns08 said:

they all suck past about 150 yards

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JPickett said:

that’s the point. Want to take rifle shots hunt rifle sessions. Muzzle loader season was never supposed to be what it turned into.

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elkassassin said:

And Neither Should Long Range Rifles! (Ya,That'll Probably PISS You Off JP,Because We Know You're A Long RANGER!)

And Neither Should The High-Tech Archery Equipment!

But Let's Take The SmokePole Scopes & See If The Deer Herd Fixes Itself!

HINT: It Won't!

But Let's Try One Little PISSCUTTER Piece Of The Pie Of 50+ F'N Reasons Why The Deer Herd Is F'D Up!

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pauns08 said:

Ya I'd watch it as well and take notes to try to learn something. He's been quiet for awhile now though so I imagine he realized he bit off more than he can chew.

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Airborne said:

I think folks should look at this social issue the following way to get a better understanding:

Imagine a scale of difficulty for hunting weapons where the least difficult is level 1 and the most difficult is level 10.

Traditional Archery (recurve/longbow) is level 10

Modern Compound is level 8-9 (still pulling a bow back with arrows, it's hard)

Modern muzzleloaders with scopes are level 2-3 (and getting easier each year)

Modern Scoped Rifle (ALW) is level 1

This left a very wide gap where we had no intermediary or medium level difficulty weapon. Taking the magnified scopes off of a modern muzzleloader kicked its difficulty level back to level 5 where is should be. The DWR made the right call, otherwise there becomes less and less of a reason to even have a separate muzzleloader hunt as it too closely resembles a rifle hunt.

This is not a hard concept to understand and is reasonable. I get that guys are upset they spent a bunch of money on high end muzzleloaders/scopes but nobody forced you to do that and you were not complaining when you forked over the dough but I get it.

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elkassassin said:

And Neither Should Long Range Rifles! (Ya,That'll Probably PISS You Off JP,Because We Know You're A Long RANGER!)

And Neither Should The High-Tech Archery Equipment!

But Let's Take The SmokePole Scopes & See If The Deer Herd Fixes Itself!

HINT: It Won't!

But Let's Try One Little PISSCUTTER Piece Of The Pie Of 50+ F'N Reasons Why The Deer Herd Is F'D Up!

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TheButcher said:

I don’t live on this sight. You suck at shooting. Good for you. Go practice. Complain less and once your mom is done cooking me breakfast, she’ll take you to the range.

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JPickett said:

It’s pretty amazing how blinded you are by bias. The reason primitive season dates are better= the weapons limitations. That’s the whole reason. Start losing those limitations ie 800 yard muzzle loaders the whole point is lost. Just can it all and drop the season, go hunt with your “long ranger” muzzy with the rifle guys.

Yes my rifles reach out there. I hunt in what’s called a “modern weapon” season. That term insinuates current state of weapons. Do t like that, let’s change it. But the “primitive “ weapon seasons insinuate not current state of weapons. Hence better opportunity in season . I know you want to have your cake and eat it too but ya gotta pick

I’ll what here for “ garsh darn stick flipper!!!!” Response

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elkassassin said:

And There You Have It From JP!

He Doesn't Muzzloader Hunt So He Can Say What He's Sayin!

I'm Not Mad They They Made The Change On SmokePole Scopes!

I Was In Disbelief Several Years When They Made The Higher Power Scopes Legal For Muzzle loaders!

I've Said A Million Times:

We Are ALL Guilty Of Weaponry Technology!

You Hear That PICKETT?

And I Don't Care Which Weapon Type You Wanna SQUAK About!

Go Ahead & Take!

But Take Fairly Across The Board Of Weapon Types!

You're Gonna BAWL Like A F'N Baby PICKETT When You Have To Take That F'N 5,000.00 Scope Off Of Your Favorite F'N Deer Rifle!

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OpeningDay said:

First Off, I am for limiting the Muzzy to a more traditional style weapon, hunt, and season. However, my issue is, they didnt take the Race car away from the driver, they simply said dont hit the gas. Ever been on a dike at Farmington bay and seen the Sky busters. They know they cant stretch lead ( or steel ) that far and still they try. Now you let the race cars ( Paramount, Ultimate) type Muzzy's out there with a red dot or open sights and tell me people aren't going to hit the gas. Come on !! They did nothing to limit the weapons capability. Just told the driver not to push the gas. I guarantee lead will still be flying well out past 200 yards with these type weapons.

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OpeningDay said:

First Off, I am for limiting the Muzzy to a more traditional style weapon, hunt, and season. However, my issue is, they didnt take the Race car away from the driver, they simply said dont hit the gas. Ever been on a dike at Farmington bay and seen the Sky busters. They know they cant stretch lead ( or steel ) that far and still they try. Now you let the race cars ( Paramount, Ultimate) type Muzzy's out there with a red dot or open sights and tell me people aren't going to hit the gas. Come on !! They did nothing to limit the weapons capability. Just told the driver not to push the gas. I guarantee lead will still be flying well out past 200 yards with these type weapons.

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yoteduster said:

Yep..there will probably be just as many deer dead and not recovered as there are tagged ones...

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2lumpy said:

If they are going to allow “long range” muzzleloaders, they should allow the optics to make them accurate. To allow one without the other is an ethical quagmire. Classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Not my fight these days but Colorado has this one set up as Utah’s was intended to be……. at its inception. Open sight, round ball, black power.

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OpeningDay said:

First Off, I am for limiting the Muzzy to a more traditional style weapon, hunt, and season. However, my issue is, they didnt take the Race car away from the driver, they simply said dont hit the gas. Ever been on a dike at Farmington bay and seen the Sky busters. They know they cant stretch lead ( or steel ) that far and still they try. Now you let the race cars ( Paramount, Ultimate) type Muzzy's out there with a red dot or open sights and tell me people aren't going to hit the gas. Come on !! They did nothing to limit the weapons capability. Just told the driver not to push the gas. I guarantee lead will still be flying well out past 200 yards with these type weapons.

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elkassassin said:

You're Gonna BAWL Like A F'N Baby PICKETT When You Have To Take That F'N 5,000.00 Scope Off Of Your Favorite F'N Deer Rifle!

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MrShane said:

Idaho going to a bonus point type system for Deer soon is gonna bother him more!!

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OpeningDay said:

First Off, I am for limiting the Muzzy to a more traditional style weapon, hunt, and season. However, my issue is, they didnt take the Race car away from the driver, they simply said dont hit the gas. Ever been on a dike at Farmington bay and seen the Sky busters. They know they cant stretch lead ( or steel ) that far and still they try. Now you let the race cars ( Paramount, Ultimate) type Muzzy's out there with a red dot or open sights and tell me people aren't going to hit the gas. Come on !! They did nothing to limit the weapons capability. Just told the driver not to push the gas. I guarantee lead will still be flying well out past 200 yards with these type weapons.

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OpeningDay said:

First Off, I am for limiting the Muzzy to a more traditional style weapon, hunt, and season. However, my issue is, they didnt take the Race car away from the driver, they simply said dont hit the gas. Ever been on a dike at Farmington bay and seen the Sky

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gundog2 said:

The restriction on scopes is the simplest and most enforceable solution, and it doesn’t force tens of thousands of hunters to buy new muzzleloaders or create unnecessary confusion about what kind of muzzleloaders are legal. It’s not really an ethical quagmire if you are willing to stay within your own limitations, but that will always be difficult for some people regardless of weapon restrictions. The current rules are pretty much in line with most other states.

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middlefork said:

They came up with these hunts called HAMS hunts that meet all the limitations some are advocating. If it means that much to you then apply for them.
The gate keeping with hunting is strong in this crowd.

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Shadow said:

There’s a general season any weapon hunt too. If high power scopes on a muzzy mean that much to you, apply for one of those tags.

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OpeningDay said:

First Off, I am for limiting the Muzzy to a more traditional style weapon, hunt, and season. However, my issue is, they didnt take the Race car away from the driver, they simply said dont hit the gas. Ever been on a dike at Farmington bay and seen the Sky busters. They know they cant stretch lead ( or steel ) that far and still they try. Now you let the race cars ( Paramount, Ultimate) type Muzzy's out there with a red dot or open sights and tell me people aren't going to hit the gas. Come on !! They did nothing to limit the weapons capability. Just told the driver not to push the gas. I guarantee lead will still be flying well out past 200 yards with these type weapons.

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pauns08 said:

No not inexperienced just would like to ethically kill a deer, I've limited my range to 150 yards. Not that I need to explain anything to you

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middlefork said:

They came up with these hunts called HAMS hunts that meet all the limitations some are advocating. If it means that much to you then apply for them.
The gate keeping with hunting is strong in this crowd.

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middlefork said:

The gate keeping with hunting is strong in this crowd.

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slamdunk said:

No, we (the committee) had a lot of discussion about this as the fuse for long range muzzies has already been lit.
We know full well about upcoming peep systems and other alternatives to reaching out, it's simply going to happen and it can't be fully stopped at this point unless we went full percussion and a full ban on inlines were implemented.
What we did do was limit the ability to "magnify", which does without doubt, cripple the inlines to within reason.
Yes, there will be 300 yard pokes, just as there will be 100 yard arrows flipped and 800 yard lead flung regardless of the electronics ban, but it definitely slows and tames the easy technology so readily available.
Future tech will be discussed as it develops.

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slamdunk said:

What we did do was limit the ability to "magnify", which does without doubt, cripple the inlines to within reason.

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MrShane said:

Will the ‘upcoming peep systems and other alternatives to reaching out’ be discussed by the Tech Committee soon?

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GeorgeE said:

I’m just shocked no one can get within a hundred yards of an animal anymore…Crazy how that happened!

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OpeningDay said:

First Off, I am for limiting the Muzzy to a more traditional style weapon, hunt, and season. However, my issue is, they didnt take the Race car away from the driver, they simply said dont hit the gas. Ever been on a dike at Farmington bay and seen the Sky busters. They know they cant stretch lead ( or steel ) that far and still they try. Now you let the race cars ( Paramount, Ultimate) type Muzzy's out there with a red dot or open sights and tell me people aren't going to hit the gas. Come on !! They did nothing to limit the weapons capability. Just told the driver not to push the gas. I guarantee lead will still be flying well out past 200 yards with these type weapons.

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quest said:

This is just a temporary let down. Actually it made it easier to get a muzzleloader tag with just 1 point. It was harder to get that tag when they allowed variable power scopes.

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OpeningDay said:

First Off, I am for limiting the Muzzy to a more traditional style weapon, hunt, and season. However, my issue is, they didnt take the Race car away from the driver, they simply said dont hit the gas. Ever been on a dike at Farmington bay and seen the Sky busters. They know they cant stretch lead ( or steel ) that far and still they try. Now you let the race cars ( Paramount, Ultimate) type Muzzy's out there with a red dot or open sights and tell me people aren't going to hit the gas. Come on !! They did nothing to limit the weapons capability. Just told the driver not to push the gas. I guarantee lead will still be flying well out past 200 yards with these type weapons.

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txhunter58 said:

There is maybe a half inch difference in groups at 150 yards between my T/C Omega, my Knight Long Range stainless steel bolt action inline, and my Thompson Center side-lock shooting a pure lead conical. One is not inherently more accurate than the other.

Some people will stretch the boundary on whatever weapon they use, including bows. That’s on them. Those people were prob trying 600 yrds with their scoped muzzy. Ya can’t fix stupid.

Bottom Line is they reduced the effective range on a muzzleloader, which was their goal.

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Mallardsx2 said:

There were none being wounded at long range before?

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yoteduster said:

Sure there was.. But tere will probably be more now...

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Mallardsx2 said:

I do however want to see these 2" groups at 200 yards with iron sights everyone is talking about. Thats about 20 times I have read that.

I did this at 50 yards yesterday and thought I was really doing something. Hell, the fiber optic covers 4" of the paper at 50 yards. lol

View attachment 153282

Meh, Its "minute of elk".

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MrShane said:

Will the ‘upcoming peep systems and other alternatives to reaching out’ be discussed by the Tech Committee soon?

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deadibob said:

What do you mean by upcoming peep systems. Adjustable (peep) tang sights have been around for over 150 years. Buffalo hunters used them, Sharps rifles have them, my SMLE Mark 5 #4 had them (Lee Enfield .303 British). They are accurate for more than 500 yards easily. The downside is they don't work well in low light unless your peep is large but that reduces accuracy to a point.

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txhunter58 said:

We can talk in circles, but the real question is will this lower harvest % success. That remains to be seen. If they can issue 10-15% more tags in the long run, or in some cases stop reducing them, it will be worth it.

And not me or any of you knows if that will happen. With the advancement of guns and scope set ups for Muzzys over the last 10 years, I suspect that it will.

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LIK2HNT said:

Remember years ago when the Mt. Dutton and other MZ hunts were after the rifle hunt. I enjoyed that hunt. Wish they would bring hunts like that back even if it was for side locks only.

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MrShane said:

I’m not sure what new tech is coming with peep systems.
Slamdunk mentioned in #61 that he and the committee is keeping an eye on peep systems and “other methods for reaching out”.
Please see post #61.

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elkassassin said:

You're Gonna BAWL Like A F'N Baby PICKETT When You Have To Take That F'N 5,000.00 Scope Off Of Your Favorite F'N Deer Rifle!

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deadibob said:

Yeah I read that. What other kind of peep systems are they going to come out with, square holes? Tritium, fiber optics? Most of that stuff is already on the market. They are just looking for an excuse to go to SHOT...and on the states dime

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OpeningDay said:

I think more along the lines of they have reduced the effective range of the person behind the weapon. They did noting to reduce the effective range of the weapon itself. My paramount will still be loaded with 160 grains of powder with a 285 grain ELR. They limited my capabilities to effectively shoot longer ranges, but the gun can still do it. This cannot be said about my TC Pro hunter loaded with 90 grains of powder and a 250 grain conical for Colorado.

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gundog2 said:

I’d like to know if “people appointed to attend the Shot Show annually” really means they are going (to Las Vegas) on the state’s dime? Doesn’t seem right to me, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

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deadibob said:

What do you mean by upcoming peep systems. Adjustable (peep) tang sights have been around for over 150 years. Buffalo hunters used them, Sharps rifles have them, my SMLE Mark 5 #4 had them (Lee Enfield .303 British). They are accurate for more than 500 yards easily. The downside is they don't work well in low light unless your peep is large but that reduces accuracy to a point.

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txhunter58 said:

I hearby officially challenge anyone on here (other than Marley) to hit a 10” circle (kill zone on mule deer) or even a 15” circle (kill zone for an elk) 4 out of 5 times at 300-400 yards. Verified by video of course.

300 yards
312 yards
345 yards
385 yards
400 yards.

Or you decide 5 distinct yardages as long as all different. And not from a bench of course. Must make them somewhat like field conditions.

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txhunter58 said:

I hearby officially challenge anyone on here (other than Marley) to hit a 10” circle (kill zone on mule deer) or even a 15” circle (kill zone for an elk) 4 out of 5 times at 300-400 yards. Verified by video of course.

300 yards
312 yards
345 yards
385 yards
400 yards.

Or you decide 5 distinct yardages as long as all different. And not from a bench of course. Must make them somewhat like field conditions.

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pauns08 said:

So what is our retarded utah DWR thinking in the new muzzy scope rules? After shooting quite a few days this summer and not being near as accurate as I'd like with a 1x scope, open sights, and also the Williams precision globe sight I've decided they all suck past about 150 yards. Before this year I was shooting a half inch group at 100 yards and 400 yards was darn near a chip shot with the 4-12 power scope that I had on it and now I'm pretty happy just hitting a 10 inch paper plate at 150 yards. So does the dwr really think that the select few guys that were shooting their muzzleloaders 500+ yards are going to completely decimate the deer herd? Well I can tell you the guys shooting 500 yards knew what they were doing and were quite accurate, now you're going to have everyone shooting at deer at 200-300 yards where really nobody has any business shooting at a deer at 200-300 yards with the new rules. Now before anyone says "I can accurately shoot 300+ yards with the new rules" no, no you can't. You might be able to luck into a 12 inch group but to me that's not considered accurate enough to ethically take an animal. So why not let us have the most accurate weapon we can have?

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diablo said:

With open sights?

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2lumpy said:

I’ll need to know the “risk vs reward” before I expose myself to potential abuse…….. should a preverbal flyer screw up my 24 “carrot” gold metal time trial.

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txhunter58 said:

With (edit) Open sights of any sort on a (edit) MUZZLELOADER

I hearby officially challenge anyone on here (other than Marley) to hit a 10” circle (kill zone on mule deer) or even a 15” circle (kill zone for an elk) 4 out of 5 times at 300-400 yards. Verified by video of course.

300 yards
312 yards
345 yards
385 yards
400 yards.

Or you decide 5 distinct yardages as long as all different. And not from a bench of course. Must make them somewhat like field conditions.

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2lumpy said:

Whew……. this is getting a bunch of side boards now…….next thing we know, somebody is gonna say it has to be with a muzzleloader.

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diablo said:

My bet is that 99 out of 100 guys couldn’t do it!

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