That's exactly our problem as a community we cant even stick together. So much jealousy and BS from within we will never be able to keep up with the fight from the outside.
No scopes on muzzleloaders
- Thread starter 5yearcoueshunter
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roadrunner
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That ridiculous thread about banning members of this forum is a prime example. A lot of Crusader Karens out there thinking it's their duty to "call people out"...
BeDawg
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Just get rid of the muzzleloader season so we don’t have to strip you of your rights. I would be alright with that.
lovehunting
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Careful what you wish for! we as hunters are divided on so many topics such as this. The anti-hunting organizations are gaining major ground!
roadrunner
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But only in states like NM with no law protecting hunting rights. The other states, like UT, can bicker all they want...
tallpine13
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Push all gun hunts to November in top tier units and do away with rifle and make it any legal weapon. Be the best way to drop some success rates in rifle hunts and get some age back on some of the animals in the woods. Keep a youth hunt in September, maybe have 1 very limited tag any legal weapon gun 3rd week of October and the rest leave them in November to December and spread them out. Go back to 3 archery hunts like the Gila use to be as well.
Mudbull
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Sounds good. You must prefer chasing bulls with a bow like me!
Bigfoot 1
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I rifle hunt elk in late October and deer in late November. I’m pretty sure what the fellows do with their muzzleloaders and bows don’t affect my success rate much. I sure don’t want anybody trying to change up the way I am currently hunting either. There are so many other factors involved with the decline of our big game we should be worried more about.
NMPaul
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Just one thought on it, as I am pretty indifferent on them changing it to a more primitive style ML. Low power scopes will help us old guys that need to use reading glasses. With my CO ML with open sights I am really limited on sites I can use. They are blurry up close like that without readers, and if I wear glasses then you cant see the animal.
BUGLEnmIN
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In the SW it’s the wolves not the muzzy guys! My favorite unit is literally dying because the mangy mutts are killing everything
If you follow the Elk/wolf study they are doing in the Gila the leading killer of elk is hunting, then wolves. Lions and bears are right there with the wolves
Drought and extra predation( wolfs) with increasing wolf populations is only going to make it worse. I think we are going to see big changes in the next couples of year since we haven’t had good calf crops, it’s gonna show up in the lack of bulls.
We control the hunting so we have the biggest influence on the populations. It’s up to us to decide if want LR muzzleloaders and hunt 3-4 year old bulls because that’s what’s happening in the muzzleloader only units. Nothing wrong with that if that’s what folks want. If you want to have a chance at 7-8 yr old bulls gonna have to change something. Tag #s or how you hunt them. Either way harvest has to decrease to get older bulls.
Drought and extra predation( wolfs) with increasing wolf populations is only going to make it worse. I think we are going to see big changes in the next couples of year since we haven’t had good calf crops, it’s gonna show up in the lack of bulls.
We control the hunting so we have the biggest influence on the populations. It’s up to us to decide if want LR muzzleloaders and hunt 3-4 year old bulls because that’s what’s happening in the muzzleloader only units. Nothing wrong with that if that’s what folks want. If you want to have a chance at 7-8 yr old bulls gonna have to change something. Tag #s or how you hunt them. Either way harvest has to decrease to get older bulls.
mossback50cal
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Exactly, either less tags, or more restrictions on muzzys. I'd be fine with leaving scopes, but limiting them to 4x.
roadrunner
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I would prefer a wolf season and take out a couple dozen a year instead of limiting and restricting ourselves...
Primitive season should mean use of primitive weapon. I've hunted with black powder since the eighties and have never taken a shot over 100 yds.. I did use a 1x scope on a deer hunt in Utah once and found that I was a better shoot using it than without it. I'd rather kill an animal dead with one shot than wound it and take a chance of losing it. I'd rather see them limit the firearm, powder, bullet than sights. I'm old and it has become hard to look through iron or open sights. I recently had to put magnified glass in the peep on my bow string.
Bigfoot 1
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Sometimes we have to step up. That’s all I’m going to say…
Bigfoot 1
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Hmmm. Hunters hunt what 3, 4 months out of the year. Lions, Bears, Wolves, Coyotes and Bob cat hunt everyday. My last elk hunt during day light hours I saw, Bear, Bob Cat and Coyotes. Time to start hunting the predator in my opinion.
Mudbull
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Agreed! I’m over these things. This one came to 20 ft before we had words. Collared. Her friends were shortly behind her. Year before I watched the wife chase a satellite over a ridge. Minutes later crazy squealing and screaming. Left the area to come back days later and find the kill. My wife now carry’s during archery.
BUGLEnmIN
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Loud and clear!
TerynItUp
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I can see both sides of this whole issue. G&F has a damn tough job of balancing the need to give opportunities to hunt and actually having animals to hunt. To me, the most effective way to do this is to manage success rates. It was only a week or two ago when we were all talking about how it’s been a decade since we hunted elk in NM and today we are advocating for a “rifle” during the rut. You can’t have both, bottom line. Maybe, maybe, antler restrictions could help? Nobody is saying what you can and cannot use, just when you can use it. Remember, there are plenty of hunts listed as “any legal weapon” not rifle.
Now, at the same time I am saying all that, I can acknowledge the slippery slope it creates. As an archer primarily, I dang sure would hate to be told to use a recurve, so I feel for you guys who dove headfirst into the ML game. However, the opportunity for me to hunt and have a good time far outweigh my need to punch a tag so I am good with G&F finding sensible solutions to strike a balance and create more opportunity.
Last thing, I think it is extreme and unproductive to compare this to losing 2nd Amendment rights. That’s like saying a ban of the designated hitter would prevent you from owning a baseball bat. Quite the stretch if you ask me.
Now, at the same time I am saying all that, I can acknowledge the slippery slope it creates. As an archer primarily, I dang sure would hate to be told to use a recurve, so I feel for you guys who dove headfirst into the ML game. However, the opportunity for me to hunt and have a good time far outweigh my need to punch a tag so I am good with G&F finding sensible solutions to strike a balance and create more opportunity.
Last thing, I think it is extreme and unproductive to compare this to losing 2nd Amendment rights. That’s like saying a ban of the designated hitter would prevent you from owning a baseball bat. Quite the stretch if you ask me.
roadrunner
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It's a different need for everyone. I hunt to punch a tag, otherwise, getting in close with a camera is the same thing if that's the need I would try to satisfy.
When people talk about taking away a 'right' it's not in the same context as a Constitutional Right. It's more of the ability for choice. By making this restriction, you're taking away the ability for someone to choose whether or not to use a scope on a muzzleloader.
If someone is truly a black powder enthusiast, they wouldn't necessarily mind a scoped muzzleloader hunt scheduled out of a rut timeframe. Muzzleloader deer is in late Sept, not in mid to late Nov and most all muzzleloader deer hunters will use a scope for obvious reasons. Move the muzzleloader bull hunt with scopes to mid Nov and entirely out of Oct.
lovehunting
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SSS
tallpine13
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Most accurate post right here. To touch on this a little. If you cut tags then you have more Hunters complaining about not drawing tags. I think everybody needs to start realizing draw odds are going to continue to get worse and worse. I do think that if we manage a few units better for quality a simple date shift could aid in that. But it also is on us hunters being ethical. I’m personally a archery guy. I’d be lying if I said I’ve never taken a shot I wasn’t 100% sure in. You get in the moment. You don’t have minutes or hours to make a decision and sometimes bad decisions are made. This goes for your everyday hunter as well as guides allowing hunters to take some questionable shots. I had a post a few years ago where a guy smoked 3 bulls on 1 tank in 3 days. 2 over 350. 1 was definitely fatal and we got cams of the other with the arrow stuck only about 3-6” in high on the shoulder about 5 days later. Last bull he finally gave a dirt nap to after swapping broad heads. I lost my sh** knowing we were in a prime unit and this guy killed 2 bulls and wounded another that I’m 99% sure he made it. A lot of people talk about the good ol days of big bulls but let’s look back then and see what the differences were….. equipment across the board was no where near it is today. There wasn’t cameras on every water source in the unit, people weren’t slinging arrows 100 yards, rifle shots were rarely over 400 yards, muzzy’s with scopes were pushing 200 yards….. and in some units there wasn’t wolves, trapping was more prominent as well, and social media wasn’t a factor. There’s definitely multiple factors on game numbers and game quality but with all the technology we have these days I think everybody has to admit. Most of the cards dealt are not in the animals favor anymore so what can we do differently? I’m personally not a fan of these 1000-1500 yard shots with rifles and 500-800with muzzies at animals. Can we do anything to change that these days? Definitely not because how can you affectively enforce power limited scopes? Will half the guys follow the rules? Possibly…. The other half???? Doubtful…. Just my .99 cents on the matter.
tallpine13
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Amen
tallpine13
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Exactly…. 5 point restrictions and push the dates and then the rifle guys that went all in on ML and the archery guys that couldn’t make the cut that also went all in would re-think hunting with a ML because now we’re not chasing bugling bulls and trying to get into 400-500 yards…. We have to become better hunters and find them…. And then try and get an opportunity. I feel like bulls are more vocal during ML than the 1st archery which is my preferred hunt and if I had the capabilities of 400-500 yards the first 5-7 days in September I personally don’t think it would be far. Again….. just my opinion.
roadrunner
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It definitely adds an advantage for sure being able to chase bugles instead of relying on woods sense.
G&F wants to increase license sales and decrease the harvest success. How about manage wildlife? How about reduce the number of coyotes by trapping or coyote calling contests? How about getting rid of wolves? How about getting rid of the drought? Those are the things that are reducing wildlife in NM.
Plus how does the Department even know that the animals were harvested with scoped muzzle loaders? That is not one of the questions when doing harvest reports? Seems to me there is going to be a bunch of law suits over this.
Plus how does the Department even know that the animals were harvested with scoped muzzle loaders? That is not one of the questions when doing harvest reports? Seems to me there is going to be a bunch of law suits over this.
Bigfoot 1
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How do we get rid of the drought?
OutdoorWriter
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Call AL Gore he might know. If we knew it would be done already. I was just making a point. But OutdoorWriter might be onto something.
Game and Fish manage our game animals. It has been said that the muzzleloaders are killing too many Ibex so we need to decrease the tags. Game and Fish were the ones that opened up out an all out slaughter on the Ibex several years ago. I don't believe its the muzzleloader problem that killed all the Ibex. So if they remove scopes and are planning on increasing tags in the ML Units it may or may not increase harvest in those Units.
BUGLEnmIN
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I don’t like the 5 point restriction part. They tried a 3 point restriction on deer years ago and there dead forks shot and left all over the woods.
G&F all of a sudden claim that muzzleloader success rates are way too high but when asked to produce the data to support this claim “they simply don’t have the data to support their position”. Using existing harvest reports, there is no way for anybody to know how many muzzleloader elk are killed with a scope vs no scope.
Also at g&f meeting in Roswell last night the elk biologists said that the muzzleloader hunts at the end of the rut simply aren’t fair to the elk as they are very vulnerable and too many big bulls get killed. Yet in the next breath of air this gentleman with g&f casually states that they want to make all of unit 34 a secondary zone and allow unlimited elk tags on private and the ability to start hunting elk with a scoped rifle Oct 1. Yet on public land, god forbid we allow a draw hunter to use a scoped muzzleloader on their hunt in mid-October. But on private land in the primary zone, hunting with a scoped rifle October 1st is acceptable? As a wildlife biologist, the level of bullshit has reached an all time high with nm g&f. And rifle and archery hunters take note that slider pins and turret scopes will be next. Straight from the mouths of the g&f last night in Roswell. They stated if success rate on archery and rifle hunts become to high they will be looking at limiting technology for these hunts as well.
Also at g&f meeting in Roswell last night the elk biologists said that the muzzleloader hunts at the end of the rut simply aren’t fair to the elk as they are very vulnerable and too many big bulls get killed. Yet in the next breath of air this gentleman with g&f casually states that they want to make all of unit 34 a secondary zone and allow unlimited elk tags on private and the ability to start hunting elk with a scoped rifle Oct 1. Yet on public land, god forbid we allow a draw hunter to use a scoped muzzleloader on their hunt in mid-October. But on private land in the primary zone, hunting with a scoped rifle October 1st is acceptable? As a wildlife biologist, the level of bullshit has reached an all time high with nm g&f. And rifle and archery hunters take note that slider pins and turret scopes will be next. Straight from the mouths of the g&f last night in Roswell. They stated if success rate on archery and rifle hunts become to high they will be looking at limiting technology for these hunts as well.
roadrunner
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Limiting technology will not stop people from taking shots they used to take.
I've said before, all anyone needs to do is sight in their rifle (or bow) at whatever distance to have the high and low spread from zero to be a few inches high close and a few inches low at distance and still have very high success rates...
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Leave it to New Mexico to take a move backwards ! Its all about $$$. Basically some in the Game Department want hunters to be happy to go camping with a elk license in their pocket. Sell more tags but leave the elk in the woods. Take our open sight muzzle loaders with a wrist rocket for backup.
5yearcoueshunter
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I think you're right to a certain extent. However, if you can't see the animal with your naked eye, I don't see how you can adjust to make the shot. You'll still have plenty of people blasting if they can at least see the animal because they know their muzzleloader is capable of the distance, which I think will result in more crippled animals. But these extreme long rage shots will be eliminated because again, you can't see the animal without magnification. Not saying that justifies this proposal, just making the point.
I've listened to the last 2 G&F meetings, and the people that have turned out have all been opposed that I recall. However, a lot of them are suggesting utilizing the "primitive muzzleloader" hunts on some of the hunts they want to reduce the success rate. G&F mostly have been citing Gila bull hunts and Ibex to justify the scope removal. To me, the primitive muzzleloader hunts have been under utilized anyway with only 3 deer hunts in the state so I think it's definitely an option.
TwoTracks
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While the Ban Hammer is out, let’s keep swinging.
No more wheels or cams on bows
No more sights on bows
No more carbon fiber or aluminum arrows
No more steels broadheads, obsidian only
No more scopes on rifles
No more bottleneck based cartridges, like areas in the midwest
No more smokeless powder, black powder loads only
No more Japanese or European glass, old bushnell 7x35 only
No tripod use when glassing
No rangefinders
The harvest rate WILL go down, with way less tags punched. But I bet ya there will be almost as many dead and lost deer and elk out there in the hunting units. The coyotes, wolves, bears and ravens will be eating good.
No more wheels or cams on bows
No more sights on bows
No more carbon fiber or aluminum arrows
No more steels broadheads, obsidian only
No more scopes on rifles
No more bottleneck based cartridges, like areas in the midwest
No more smokeless powder, black powder loads only
No more Japanese or European glass, old bushnell 7x35 only
No tripod use when glassing
No rangefinders
The harvest rate WILL go down, with way less tags punched. But I bet ya there will be almost as many dead and lost deer and elk out there in the hunting units. The coyotes, wolves, bears and ravens will be eating good.
TwoTracks
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$$$$$. They won’t ban tags. Priorities man. No one is going to cut their own budget or layoff their coworkers willingly.
You guys need to research where the money comes from. Cutting a few hundred Bull elk tags isn’t a concern for a gov agency that operates on 40 million dollar budget. Fishing license sales carry most of the budget.
I watch one of there public meetings and they couldn’t really justify why to get rid of scopes. 34 and 36 have same muzzzleloader hunts and the elk are doing great. Drought is driving this and wouldn’t be an issue if we were getting good calf crops in the Gila like the sacs.
I get something need to change and I think tag reductions are the right answer or getting the hunts away from the rut. One guy had a good idea of 1st hunts primitive muzzleloaders and later hunts allow any muzzle loader. I thought I was a good suggestion and might help. If you kill 10 bulls less a hunt over 5 years that 50 more bull out in the unit, that will give them a chance to grow
I watch one of there public meetings and they couldn’t really justify why to get rid of scopes. 34 and 36 have same muzzzleloader hunts and the elk are doing great. Drought is driving this and wouldn’t be an issue if we were getting good calf crops in the Gila like the sacs.
I get something need to change and I think tag reductions are the right answer or getting the hunts away from the rut. One guy had a good idea of 1st hunts primitive muzzleloaders and later hunts allow any muzzle loader. I thought I was a good suggestion and might help. If you kill 10 bulls less a hunt over 5 years that 50 more bull out in the unit, that will give them a chance to grow
roadrunner
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I think they should ban anyone not from San Juan County from salmon snagging at Navajo in Oct and Nov ?
my ass...why do you think most people hunt with high power...talk to an outfitter and ask him what he thinks about muzzle/archery compared to rifles regarding lost wounded...most of them wont tell you cuz they need the revenue...imo archery wounds as many as they kill...i hunted archery muzz and rifle for 55 years....killed with all 3....hunters would not be using muzz if it werent for the earlier seasons...technology helps and hurts
BeDawg
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You have me convinced. People who shoot long range are perfect 100% of the time.
delmag1942
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NMG&F could not manage a lemonade stand is as simple as I can put it.
Bigfoot 1
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Why is that?
delmag1942
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IMO, to name a few, the continuation of the landowner tags, the outfitter set aside draw as well as seening to never reduce tag numbers. Seems simple enough to simply cut tags rather than remove scopes. But that would reduce revenue that i assume is still down since the reduction in NR by 6%.
Bigfoot 1
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Thanks.
Bigfoot 1
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Where I hunt deer in NM there are noticeably less deer now than in the past.
BUGLEnmIN
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A lotta lions in that country these days too!
Bigfoot 1
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Bingo!
joevegas
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Can we shoot them with scoped Muzzleloaders, or do we have to use pocket rockets for them as well??
tallpine13
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Again….. I think an easy change in the dates would significantly reduce success. Your talking limit archery from 0-80 yards to 40 yards….. and not muzzy’s that shoot out to 600??? Us as a hunting group I think, as I’ve already stated, have to come to realization that times are not what they were 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago….. we have 100% stacked the odds against animals 100%. That multiplied with drought and increased hunting pressures from shed hunting to actual hunting these animals live in more harsh conditions and get pushed harder than ever…. I come from a farming family….. guess how we manage the drought? Wells don’t pump 600-1000 GPM anymore…. So what do we do? We adjust… We farm less land pipe more wells together to be able to get a crop…. Now this will be the one that really makes people made…. If we don’t want to limit tags but want less animals taken….. then do we offer less tags???? Every hunter would cry about “I haven’t drawn in 20 years” and we’d be in another toilet paper shortage due to all the tears…. We claim we go out and hunt for meat and that’s why we still hunt but in my experiences I’d imagine it’s 50/50 now with the social media crazy and the chase for likes and YouTube views. I look at Ibex…… let’s be honest who hunts those creatures to through it on their plate for Christmas dinner???? Seems just like the rest of the world and the way things are going even us as hunters are hypocritical. We want better numbers, we want better quality hunts, we want better opportunities. But we’re not wanting to make any changes but complain about the G and F and the way they handle it….. they don’t have an easy job and there is going to be trial and error…. Predator hunts would be a great start. But with cost of fuel and things these days not everybody is willing to go out. I personally think drought the G and F or us as hunters could help restore old silted in tanks but that takes time and money…. Rain catches…..time and money…. Then tags would cost more and we’d complain even more…. I see a never ending cycle of complaining….
Bigfoot 1
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All I want to do is hunt.
OCHO
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To me this may make sense on the surface. But its like a cavity and putting Oragel on it. Temp fix but you need to get to the root of the problem. And here is why. Nothing the G&F does is for anything but the success of the G&F and coincidently does not match vast majority of hunters.
If this really was about the number of animals why do we have double side talk in so many units?
Mount Taylor Unit 9 Privative Weapon Unit: But opens a cow hunt with high power and basically massacre's the elk herds that really have never recovered? G&F working on recovering that bull sheet deal? No, its a terrible unit now and over ran with LO claiming half the state/forest land is there's and they know that... Nothing being done to fix it.
Unit 32: 175 muzzle deer tags and 1250 riffle deer tags. Yes the scopes are the issue on muzzle loaders here
Unit 34: 340 muzzle deer tags and 1470 riffle tags? Yes the scopes are the issue on muzzle loaders here
Elk units and I will specify unit 13 for elk is all primitive aka Muzzle or lessor for elk but deer is high power and once again on the tags: 200 muzzle and 300 high power. This unit was 1000 high power for years and finally adjusted to 150 tags per hunt. You are telling me that that unit over night had a turn in animal count so you eliminated 350 tags per hunt and 700 total tags because of what? There isn't even 700 deer in unit 13.
There is no management in that plain and simple and now with this lets save the animals. Really, why no use biology and put numbers out in units that make sense based on population and sustainability!
You and I have no idea how many barbary sheep and ibex get killed out of a chopper every year for being somewhere near BHS or out of the core area just so the great all mighty BHS can’t survive with out that help. Additionally trains kill & lions kill more BHS than any of us residents and NR will ever dream of. And do they do anything with them? No leave them lay.... Now they want to add 600 tags and combine all units for barbs. Make 34 complete otc.
We do more management to keep the BHS alive than to sustain the longevity of animals common folk can hunt so someone who can drop $200k on a tag for conservancy.
You pull the scopes off you are only going to cause work arounds and ways to circumvent the issue at hand. There are several non magnified aiming solutions like Gunwerks provides. And for the people that can't afford these solutions they will shoot and figure it out. Its the same across all weapons and categories of hunts. If we are to change this we need to revamp all things fairly. Meaning if your limiting one weapon maybe they all need limitations. But than your giving things up and life has revealed in most of these cases when you give things up like that you will likely never get them back.
If this really was about the number of animals why do we have double side talk in so many units?
Mount Taylor Unit 9 Privative Weapon Unit: But opens a cow hunt with high power and basically massacre's the elk herds that really have never recovered? G&F working on recovering that bull sheet deal? No, its a terrible unit now and over ran with LO claiming half the state/forest land is there's and they know that... Nothing being done to fix it.
Unit 32: 175 muzzle deer tags and 1250 riffle deer tags. Yes the scopes are the issue on muzzle loaders here
Unit 34: 340 muzzle deer tags and 1470 riffle tags? Yes the scopes are the issue on muzzle loaders here
Elk units and I will specify unit 13 for elk is all primitive aka Muzzle or lessor for elk but deer is high power and once again on the tags: 200 muzzle and 300 high power. This unit was 1000 high power for years and finally adjusted to 150 tags per hunt. You are telling me that that unit over night had a turn in animal count so you eliminated 350 tags per hunt and 700 total tags because of what? There isn't even 700 deer in unit 13.
There is no management in that plain and simple and now with this lets save the animals. Really, why no use biology and put numbers out in units that make sense based on population and sustainability!
You and I have no idea how many barbary sheep and ibex get killed out of a chopper every year for being somewhere near BHS or out of the core area just so the great all mighty BHS can’t survive with out that help. Additionally trains kill & lions kill more BHS than any of us residents and NR will ever dream of. And do they do anything with them? No leave them lay.... Now they want to add 600 tags and combine all units for barbs. Make 34 complete otc.
We do more management to keep the BHS alive than to sustain the longevity of animals common folk can hunt so someone who can drop $200k on a tag for conservancy.
You pull the scopes off you are only going to cause work arounds and ways to circumvent the issue at hand. There are several non magnified aiming solutions like Gunwerks provides. And for the people that can't afford these solutions they will shoot and figure it out. Its the same across all weapons and categories of hunts. If we are to change this we need to revamp all things fairly. Meaning if your limiting one weapon maybe they all need limitations. But than your giving things up and life has revealed in most of these cases when you give things up like that you will likely never get them back.
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OCHO
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That isn't practicality anymore whether you like it or not. So you either don't hunt, get luck as hell or try to change things. How lucky are you? I am not lucky. Nobody wants to get into the mix but we are all going to have to try other wise we will watch NM turn to CA. And if we could all agree we could do so much meaningful damage it would be crazy great!
TwoTracks
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I completely agree with you. Really. My point was that we as hunters need to stop pointing fingers at each other. The whole concept of banning is akin to censorship. It’s fine as long as it‘s happening to someone else. The tides change quickly and then your preferred method of take, speech, thoughts, etc are next. I’d prefer we don’t go down the ban road at all. The 50 other issues need attention before we start banning the few dozen 700 yard Muzzle Loaders in the state.
NMDGF has a very difficult job, I don’t envy them.
Bigfoot 1
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It is practicality, my draw rate is extremely high, my success rate is as high as my draw rate. What do you want us all to agree on sir?
roadrunner
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^^^ just watch for it. I'd be surprised if it applied to this year.
5yearcoueshunter
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G&F actually updated the proposal document today that includes some success rate trending info for Elk. Glad they included that, however I am wondering why 2001 thru 2016 isn't included? Would also like to see deer, antelope and Ibex success rate trends since the proposal is to remove scopes for all species.
Bigfoot 1
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When was mandatory harvest reporting implemented? Maybe that’s it.
5yearcoueshunter
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That's a good point. Pretty sure it was implemented around 2015. There was no mandatory reporting in the 80s to 2000 either though as far as I know, so don't know why those years would be included as a comparison.
Bigfoot 1
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I noticed that also after I posted. Makes you wonder how they know what the success rate was back then. We sure never reported anything to anybody until it was mandated.
5yearcoueshunter
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My only guess is they are trying to compare timeframes when there was predominantly no scopes vs predominantly scopes, and that 2001 thru 2016 was a mix.
Bigfoot 1
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It’s incomplete data anyway they slice it. Of course the government bean counters will always make the numbers match what they want them to be.
TwoTracks
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Yep, it’s not really telling the entire story. The ML dates are usually way more favorable. I tend to think the guys that apply for and use a ML are more serious than the common hunter (not the dedicated hunters on MM) but the typical road hunter types. So I’d guess many of the ML hunters are more persistent and more skilled, which elevates the success rates too.
roadrunner
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Where is NM at on this push? Thought I saw a post elsewhere that said it's pretty much a done deal for next year, just hasn't been publicized too much.
5yearcoueshunter
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I think public comment thus far has been pretty split, although pretty much everyone that has shown up to meetings have been against it. Proposals are still up for comment. They will probably make the final decision by October. They have already adopted pronghorn and Ibex hunts with the direction that scopes will NOT be legal on Muzzleloaders. So I'd say it's a done deal, but never know until they formally pass it.
swampokie
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The removal of all the hell razing side by sides would make the success rate go back up to at least 25% even with a sidelock pole.
roadrunner
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Couldn't agree more. Those knuckleheads messed up opening day two years ago on a 70 - 75 inch buck. Would've had a 125 yd shot...
BioHazrdMan
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Walk in 2+ miles from any roads.... goats all over the place and nobody close by.
mossback50cal
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While that may be true in some areas, it isnt in some. A couple years ago I had a unit 21 rifle deer hunt. Found a secluded water hole in the southern part of the unit, about a two and a half mile hike in. Got set up early afternoon to wait. About an hour later, here comes multiple side by sides up the wash, which was definitely not a road, and they start doing donuts in the water, raising all kinds of hell. Reported it, and guess what was done, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Not even a game warden visit. Thought I found a honey hole, a week before the season had seen a large group of deer, with multiple nice bucks watering there. Tracks showed they watered there often. Needless to say, they didn't return during my hunt.
NMPaul
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My scope less CO muzzle loader tonight. These were pure luck because I cant even see the red plate at 200 yards because my front site completely covers it.
I wish NM never went down the road of anything goes Muzzle loaders, but, they did. I spent the money for an ultimate.
Its at least a 10 lb gun.
I'm fine with scope less. Maybe better odds and less weight to carry. For an older guy that finds hitting the mountains harder every year its a decent trade off.
I do fault NMGF for going down that road and then yanking the rug out from those that dropped big bucks.
I wish NM never went down the road of anything goes Muzzle loaders, but, they did. I spent the money for an ultimate.
Its at least a 10 lb gun.
I'm fine with scope less. Maybe better odds and less weight to carry. For an older guy that finds hitting the mountains harder every year its a decent trade off.
I do fault NMGF for going down that road and then yanking the rug out from those that dropped big bucks.
roadrunner
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Thinking about pulling the scope off mine and going with a Williams western precision sight for when NM makes it to third base on this restriction.
That way I'll be ready for when I pull the Valles Caldera muzzy tag next year.
NMPaul
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I kept planning on buying after market sites for my ML. There seems to be some really good ones out there. Never did. Those are the stock ones that came on my Knight Ultralight.
Even if they change it, doubt odds are much better, and if so, not for very long
sbeard4
Active Member
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Killing is the only factor they are measuring. In this study. The pressure/stress from 24/7 predators supercedes the effect of killing. It actually pushes animals out. Whitetail deer hunters know this. If I sit in the same woods (not even the same stand) 3 nights in one week I will see fewer deer each time. Even with perfect wind and no kills.
Yellowstone 15 years ago blamed global warming for their diminishing elk population after the introduction of wolves. Just south of there at the Grand Tetons the biologist attributed their increasing elk population to the pressure from the wolves pushing them down.
We see the same thing with urban sprawl. As more predatory populations move in others - even those armed move out. Its not because that many people are killed. Its the pressure and threat
passthrough
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Paul, totally not a jab on your ability, but your pictures show us what we can expect under these new muzzleloader rules. If we are hoping for "paper plate" accuracy @ 100 yards, only one of those shots qualifies as a shot in the kill zone, and that was under optimal shooting conditions. Under field conditions and shooting at an animal, the outcome might be different. Your groups are good, obviosly the gun shoots good and you do your part. The issue is, you cant control the location of those groups like you can with a scoped firearm. Is that group in the lungs or in no mans land between the back of the lungs and the guts? Who knows? Taking the scope off your muzzleloader that you are acustomed to shooting as 200,250,300 yards makes that same gun a 75-150 yard gun. Will hunters make that adjustment? Or will they shoot and hope for the best because that gun always shoots that far. I expect to see lots of animals suffering from misplaced muzzy bullets, especially in the first few years, there will be a learning curve at the animals expense.
roadrunner
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You don't need a reg change to do that...
The population summaries for elk are stable or above their goals in about 90% of all elk units.
The bows that shoot 100 yards and rifles and scopes that shoot 100.8 miles are ok.
If they are going to ban scopes, go all in. Make all muzzle hunts side locks only. At least draw odds would increase.
The bows that shoot 100 yards and rifles and scopes that shoot 100.8 miles are ok.
If they are going to ban scopes, go all in. Make all muzzle hunts side locks only. At least draw odds would increase.
NMPaul
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Wes, I totally get what your saying. At best for me an open sighted ML is a 150 yard gun. I also practice at 100 yards with my bow so I feel comfortable at 60 yards.
Like any sighting in, its a bout getting a group and knowing where your gun is shooting. I know its about 5" high at 100 yards and dead on about 150.
We all know what other people do. They do the craziest sh!t in the field whether its with rifles, bows or MLs.
Its not the weapon. As a ethical hunter all you can do is know your equipment and your limitations and sometimes bad stuff still happens.
I bought a long range ML that I would use at 400 yards with the right scenario. They make the rules I stay with in them and do the best I can.
My point is that maybe NM should have never gone down that road, and if they did they should have stuck with it.
Since they didnt I will make my adjustments and hopefully use my scopeless gun with some success in the future.
There are people with 1000 yard rifles that have no business using them even at 200. As always, its the person not the weapon.
BUGLEnmIN
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I haven’t had time to keep up with this thread . I think it’s ass backwards. Now there just giving rifle hunters a huge advantage IMO BY DECREASING the amount of harvest for muzzy guys and the rifle guys get a hay day!
Just another ass backwards rule made by some real geniuses!
Just another ass backwards rule made by some real geniuses!
BeDawg
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And your odds of drawing a tag better due to lower success right!
swampokie
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I was exactly 2 miles in near chino peak when I had the first z71 come across the flats stopping and glassing each big white rock. The about 1030 I sat down to have a bite and a yellow side by side cruised up rock glassing roll within 75 yds. Blaze orange and never noticed me until I said it’s just a rock I promise. Instead of leaving they started to set up camp and talked loudly about roasting green Chili’s Soon they were joined by a black Chevy avalanche with most of the residents of rio arriba county on board. They really know how to camp in style up there. Damn the fun.
roadrunner
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They're the same ones that plague Navajo in Oct/Nov when the salmon are running.
BUGLEnmIN
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? Doubtful
BeDawg
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Okay Debbie downer. Then your odds of shooting a larger buck on the rifle just increased!
roadrunner
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BUGLEnmIN
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I dont rifle hunt to often so they’re safe! ?
BUGLEnmIN
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Yessir!
Looserowel505
Active Member
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What a cool pic .What smoke pole is that?Primitive season should mean use of primitive weapon. I've hunted with black powder since the eighties and have never taken a shot over 100 yds.. I did use a 1x scope on a deer hunt in Utah once and found that I was a better shoot using it than without it. I'd rather kill an animal dead with one shot than wound it and take a chance of losing it. I'd rather see them limit the firearm, powder, bullet than sights. I'm old and it has become hard to look through iron or open sights. I recently had to put magnified glass in the peep on my bow string.
View attachment 75599
5yearcoueshunter
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October 14th
Looserowel505
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THIS RIGHT HERE NAILED!!!
Looserowel505
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Literally EVERY UNIT IN NM...
OCHO
Active Member
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Paul the portion regarding practice, understanding and effort to learn to hunt and use your weapon is the root of the situation.
As hunters the vast majority of people hunting and drawing tags do NOT do any of what is required to have a good hunt, be an ethical Hunter by any standards and honestly shouldn’t have a tag.
I help at both archery shops so I can give you some very sad examples I heard weekend before the 1st of sept.
I have a bow with 4 arrow quiver and no arrows… how much for 4 arrows and 4 broad heads? I need to tune my bow and rest broad heads today. I leave in 2 days.
If all my vanes and arrow lengths are different will that affect my shooting?
I borrowed my friends kids bow that’s 36# can we move it down to like 28 so I can draw this back? I have second hunt in 15. Hopefully I’m still sighted in after that. Have you been shooting that as is at 36? No cause I can’t pull it back.
What bow sight comes sighted in? How much for you guys to sight my bow in.
A lot of women and kids are the people in this situation. Which is sad that as men or a hunting community some of us have let our kids/friends and family lose their way with hunting and what the tradition is about. Failure to go out in show them.
The facts are no matter what weapon people use if your NOT proficient it can be useless. No matter what weapon you use if your ARE proficient you can use anything. To many think you can buy the best of everything and it guarantees success not true!! It’s just unfortunate the way of the majority world has zero desire to put in work to earn things now.
I agree that giving up rights is just the start of continuing to take even more. Look at California lots of how they and other states are currently at started with small things like trapping ban, coyote hunts etc.
See it’s just like the politics of the world instead of trying to change our minds they try to make use fight each other and implode and cause division. They know if we all had once voice one word we couldn’t be held down or back but unfortunately it works. Reading this thread and lots of threads here and talking to people at the shops it’s very evident its becoming more successful! We don’t have to agree but we can have common ground with out testing each other down!
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