Trail Cams Gone

slamdunk

slamdunk

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Baiting gone, cams gone.....what's next?
My guess is variable power scopes on muzzies ?‍♂️
 
I saw a 4 point with does by my house tonight.

I venture to guess he’s alive because of no baiting and no cams.

I am positive that the deer are going to continue their exploding numbers now. It started just last year with the baiting ban. They’ve already bounced back.

Yes this post is tongue in cheek. I think both bans are ridiculous.
 
Yeah, I can't wait for the EXPLOSION of the Deer Herd now!!! I was coming through Price and saw 15 Deer in a field and 5 of them were Bucks so I guess that means that 1 in every 3 deer are Bucks!!! Just the thought of Banning Trail Cams is Working!!! WAFJ!!!
 
How about the DWR and wildlife board spend some time and energy on things that will actually move the needle, like getting accurate herd counts and real data on harvest #s through mandatory harvest reporting instead of putting in place unenforceable garbage laws that won’t do a thing?
 
Because They Always Do STUPID SHHHITT That Don't Work or Help!



elkhunterUT said:
How about the DWR and wildlife board spend some time and energy on things that will actually move the needle, like getting accurate herd counts and real data on harvest #s through mandatory harvest reporting instead of putting in place unenforceable garbage laws that won’t do a thing?
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Dog valley, find a better insult than that.

Do you know how I hunt? Do you know what I kill? Do you know what my season was?

Chances are, no you don’t. And you also don’t know whether or not any of my kills for this year were even on a trail camera. Or if any were over bait either.
 
Dconcrete said:
Dog valley, find a better insult than that.

Do you know how I hunt? Do you know what I kill? Do you know what my season was?

Chances are, no you don’t. And you also don’t know whether or not any of my kills for this year were even on a trail camera. Or if any were over bait either.
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For your information I have hunted for over 60 years, my family ran cattle on the Beaver and MT Dutton, we didn't shoot does or small bucks, I started hunting with a 30-30, we hunted the right way giving the deer a fair chance, we had to hunt hard to find the buck we wanted, not to put out camera to find then, you couldn't stay in my foot steps hunting.
I want to thank the Big Game Board for what they did.
 
This isn’t the end all be all but it’s a step in the right direction. I’ve always had a few cameras out during the season and enjoy the pictures, but I gotta be honest I love seeing all the Hushin, flat brimmer fan boys losing their minds about not being able to run 10+ cameras during the season. Hopefully next we’ll get rid of scopes on muzzleloaders.
 
I agree it is a step even though I still think it is to late for several units where deer herds are almost non existent. However any step is a plus and I agree let’s get rid of high powered scopes on muzzy and try shortening days of hunts so we are not chasing these animals for so long. You saw the dates that cameras are banned from aug 1st to jan 1st because of hunts still going on. They even admitted some hunts go through January. When do these animals catch a break?
 
Elkslayer1125 said:
This isn’t the end all be all but it’s a step in the right direction. I’ve always had a few cameras out during the season and enjoy the pictures, but I gotta be honest I love seeing all the Hushin, flat brimmer fan boys losing their minds about not being able to run 10+ cameras during the season. Hopefully next we’ll get rid of scopes on muzzleloaders.
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The scope thing is coming.....
 
dogvalleymule said:
For your information I have hunted for over 60 years, my family ran cattle on the Beaver and MT Dutton, we didn't shoot does or small bucks, I started hunting with a 30-30, we hunted the right way giving the deer a fair chance, we had to hunt hard to find the buck we wanted, not to put out camera to find then, you couldn't stay in my foot steps hunting.
I want to thank the Big Game Board for what they did.
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Did You Throw that Football over the Mountain Too Uncle Rico...
 
Hunted for 60 years huh? That’s great. I am happy that you’ve had the passion longer than most people do.

With how long you’ve hunted, that puts you hunting mule deer in the glory days of the species. I sincerely doubt you hunted that hard to kill the buck you wanted. Even with a 30-30. Unless you’re just a shitty shot and a shitty hunter.

Slam, we won’t agree on the baiting or not. Or the trail cams or not.

However, I like to hunt them both ways that you’ve posted. Oddly enough, as much baiting as I’ve done, I’ve never killed an ungulate over bait. Not even my Whitetail’s. And I still have the passion for baiting. Always will.

The internet has done far more damage to the herds and to hunting than any other factor.

Trail cams and bait piles aren’t killing the does. We both know does and fawn survival rate is the biggest problem facing the deer. Trail cams and bait are nowhere nearly as detrimental to the herds as: the ridiculous amount of antlerless tags, the ridiculous season dates, vehicles, weather, general pressure, predators, an unadmitted wound rate, poaching, loss of habitat, the increase in elk, weapons across the board that are capable of a lot more these days. Bows, muzzy, and rifles.

The problems are many. No I don’t agree that trail cams and baiting was a step in the right direction. These aren’t what’s killing the does and fawns.

Are people killing more bucks? Probably. But I’d wager long range shooting from all weapons has had a 50 times more negative impact on the buck and bull population than bait or cams.
 
southernutahhunter said:
Hunted for 60 years huh? That’s great. I am happy that you’ve had the passion longer than most people do.
Dconcrete said:
With how long you’ve hunted, that puts you hunting mule deer in the glory days of the species. I sincerely doubt you hunted that hard to kill the buck you wanted. Even with a 30-30. Unless you’re just a shitty shot and a shitty hunter.

Slam, we won’t agree on the baiting or not. Or the trail cams or not.

However, I like to hunt them both ways that you’ve posted. Oddly enough, as much baiting as I’ve done, I’ve never killed an ungulate over bait. Not even my Whitetail’s. And I still have the passion for baiting. Always will.

The internet has done far more damage to the herds and to hunting than any other factor.

Trail cams and bait piles aren’t killing the does. We both know does and fawn survival rate is the biggest problem facing the deer. Trail cams and bait are nowhere nearly as detrimental to the herds as: the ridiculous amount of antlerless tags, the ridiculous season dates, vehicles, weather, general pressure, predators, an unadmitted wound rate, poaching, loss of habitat, the increase in elk, weapons across the board that are capable of a lot more these days. Bows, muzzy, and rifles.

The problems are many. No I don’t agree that trail cams and baiting was a step in the right direction. These aren’t what’s killing the does and fawns.

Are people killing more bucks? Probably. But I’d wager long range shooting from all weapons has had a 50 times more negative impact on the buck and bull population than bait or cams.
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Are killing does really the issue in utah? Because in 2021 only 935 antlerless deer permits were issued, whereas nearly 75,000 general season buck deer, and over 1,000 limited entry deer tags were issued. The issue is not killing off all the does, we need more accurate counts and less permits. It wouldn’t hurt to implement 3 point or better units also. Plus with the trail cam ban every guide won’t be able to run 100+ cams on LE units. If you don’t think that’ll held the herds you’re naive.
 
935 less doe is a big deal when you do not have deer to start with. Your point of getting an accurate count is exactly the problem. So when you kill 50 doe on a unit that does not sound like much,but it really is because there just are not the number of deer these formulas kick out.
 
Dconcrete said:
Hunted for 60 years huh? That’s great. I am happy that you’ve had the passion longer than most people do.

With how long you’ve hunted, that puts you hunting mule deer in the glory days of the species. I sincerely doubt you hunted that hard to kill the buck you wanted. Even with a 30-30. Unless you’re just a shitty shot and a shitty hunter.

Slam, we won’t agree on the baiting or not. Or the trail cams or not.

However, I like to hunt them both ways that you’ve posted. Oddly enough, as much baiting as I’ve done, I’ve never killed an ungulate over bait. Not even my Whitetail’s. And I still have the passion for baiting. Always will.

The internet has done far more damage to the herds and to hunting than any other factor.

Trail cams and bait piles aren’t killing the does. We both know does and fawn survival rate is the biggest problem facing the deer. Trail cams and bait are nowhere nearly as detrimental to the herds as: the ridiculous amount of antlerless tags, the ridiculous season dates, vehicles, weather, general pressure, predators, an unadmitted wound rate, poaching, loss of habitat, the increase in elk, weapons across the board that are capable of a lot more these days. Bows, muzzy, and rifles.

The problems are many. No I don’t agree that trail cams and baiting was a step in the right direction. These aren’t what’s killing the does and fawns.

Are people killing more bucks? Probably. But I’d wager long range shooting from all weapons has had a 50 times more negative impact on the buck and bull population than bait or cams.
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You are exactly right and I have been preaching this for a very very long and tiresome time now.
The baiting and cams are an entirely separate issue to declining "herds", we need to saves does!!?
 
southernutahhunter said:
935 less doe is a big deal when you do not have deer to start with. Your point of getting an accurate count is exactly the problem. So when you kill 50 doe on a unit that does not sound like much,but it really is because there just are not the number of deer these formulas kick out.
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Right so why would we not do everything to limit the amount of harvest for mature bucks, young bucks, and does? Let’s cut tags, or Implement point restrictions, ban cameras and baiting? If you don’t have bucks, does can’t be bred. Like I said banning cameras isn’t the end all be all but it’s a step in the right direction.
 
Elkslayer1125 said:
Right so why would we not do everything to limit the amount of harvest for mature bucks, young bucks, and does? Let’s cut tags, or Implement point restrictions, ban cameras and baiting? If you don’t have bucks, does can’t be bred. Like I said banning cameras isn’t the end all be all but it’s a step in the right direction.
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Deer aren't monaganous
 
Now That It's Too Late We're gonna Try Something that Won't Help!

JUDAS!

Scopes Banned On SmokePoles Might Be Coming!

But So Are Re-Curves!

And Short Range Rifles!
 
935 doe tags, compounded by the fact that depending on the season, they’re pregnant, compounded by the fact that they may or may not have a fawn with them, turns into a lot of deer being killed. Bucks don’t have fawns there little buddy. And slam may correct me on this buuuuut does are getting bred even with the buck numbers being down. There aren’t 100000000000 does with zero bucks to breed them.

Why are there less bucks? Simple. Bucks start out as fawns. Fawns are given life by a doe. Neither has a great survival rate right now.

The issue of too many tags comes AFTER the doe and fawns have been hit hard.

Antler restrictions, yes I believe they work for quality measures. Go ahead, cut the tags. But until the doe and fawn issue gets fixed and addressed, your buck cutting tags won’t do ****.

Naive? Perhaps. Seen a lot of units and states? Yep I have. I spend about 8 months a year in the field, I have seen quite the changes take place.

And for the record, before anyone chimes in about the 2 points doing all the breeding, remember, If he has the genetics to become a big buck, he has those genetics as a 2 point too. And the does carry genetics too. You just can’t tell what they are.
 
Careful there BS!

You Just Uped The Buck To Doe Ratio!

Price Will Have thousands of Tags Offered To Get The Last Few!



Broadside_Shot said:
Yeah, I can't wait for the EXPLOSION of the Deer Herd now!!! I was coming through Price and saw 15 Deer in a field and 5 of them were Bucks so I guess that means that 1 in every 3 deer are Bucks!!! Just the thought of Banning Trail Cams is Working!!! WAFJ!!!
Click to expand...
 
It's funny to read posts like this. As usual several thoughts run through them.

The first being that "cams don't help kill". This is perhaps the dumbest of all takes. Of course they do. There are ENTIRE guide buisness created around them. That's how guides live in Spanish Fork, yet "dominate" on the Boulder. It's how you guide from Elk Ridge, in multiple states. Professionals don't invest in tools, that don't increase efficiency and production. Guides run thousands of them in Utah. And yeah, that trickles down to the non professionals. We all see the pics, we all know why dudes run them. No one is bamboozled with the "doesn't help kill" line. Do you think Heaton was against the ban because he cares about Hoss getting fun pics? Or because it takes a valuable tool from the corporate class? Bet your azz, DC, Mossback, and WLH, are FUMING over that one.

As for enforcing it, that would be real simple. Cams found during closed period should be considered LITTER, same as a beer can, and as such should be removed from public land, by the finder.


The second thought about "not enough bucks to breed", is made apparently by dudes who have never taken a biology class, or watched deer during the rut. It's MORE LIKELY a buck will kill himself breeding non stop, than not breed hot does. The problem ain't the availability of Weiner. The problem is HOT DOES. More importantly IF there are hot does, and WHEN they are hot. Both of which lead to fawns mortality.
 
hossblur said:
It's funny to read posts like this. As usual several thoughts run through them.

The first being that "cams don't help kill". This is perhaps the dumbest of all takes. Of course they do. Their are ENTIRE guide buisness created around them. That's how guides live in Spanish Fork, yet "dominate" on the Boulder. It's how you guide from Elk Ridge, in multiple states. Professionals don't invest in tools, that don't increase efficiency and production. And yeah, that trickles down to the non professionals. Do you think Heaton was against the ban because he cares about Hoss getting fun pics? Or because it takes a valuable tool from the corporate class? Bet your azz, DC, Mossback, and WLH, are FUMING over that one.

As for enforcing it, that would be real simple. Cams found during closed period should be considered LITTER, same as a beer can, and as such should be removed from public land, by the finder.


The second thought about "not enough bucks to breed", is made apparently by dudes who have never taken a biology class, or watched deer during the rut. It's MORE LIKELY a buck will kill himself, than not breed hot does. The problem ain't the availability of Weiner. The problem is HOT DOES. More importantly IF there are hot does, and WHEN they are hot. Both of which lead to fawns mortality.
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Only Partially Right There Hossy!

When The Fawn Buck is Breeding it's Mother You've Got a Problem There!

As Stated Above!

The PISSCUTTER 2 Point Doing the Breeding Ain't a Big Issue IF,And I F'N Repeat IF,The Buck is Packing Some Good Genetics!

But These ImBred Dinks,that came From Several Generations of Their Dad,GrendDad,Great-GrandDad being a Spike & So On Ain't Cutting It!

What Do You End Up With?

The PISS POOR Quality Herd We Have Today!

Along With 49+ Other Issues & Reasons Why!

I'm Not Sayin What Few Are Left Ain't Getting Bred But GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY Get out of The House & Go See What's Left Come Rut Time!
 
Managing our wildlife is so much easier when you significantly reduce hunters success. :) Why do the work to better our herds when we are all eating tag soup? Hunters just want their cake and eat it too. You can’t have any cake! Does anyone have the details to Tim McGraws rifle setup in 1883? Asking for a friend The cameras are just the beginning.
 
Tiny said:
It looks like they made another hunting season to me August 1st will be a big day to see if we can fill the bed of a truck with trash accidentally left hanging around lol 1 little step in the right direction thank you to half of the wildlife board
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If you can find my unlocked and unsecured cameras, you earned them.
 
So banning bait and trail cams really only impacts archery guys. When are they going to quit catering to the rifle guys that have the biggest impact on the herd? Let me know when thermal imagery is addressed, long range rifle setups, apps that tell you where to aim, rifle elk hunt moved out of the rut, defecated hunter program etc. etc. etc. Until then, these bans will do nothing to help the overall herd health. Save a few bucks? Maybe, but nothing to improve overall deer numbers.
 
It is absolutely mind blowing to me how many people STILL want to correlate baiting, cams and technology with rebuilding "herds" ?
 
Bigwiffy said:
So banning bait and trail cams really only impacts archery guys. When are they going to quit catering to the rifle guys that have the biggest impact on the herd? Let me know when thermal imagery is addressed, long range rifle setups, apps that tell you where to aim, rifle elk hunt moved out of the rut, defecated hunter program etc. etc. etc. Until then, these bans will do nothing to help the overall herd health. Save a few bucks? Maybe, but nothing to improve overall deer numbers.
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I'm starting to think you've never stepped foot on the Paunsaugunt during rifle season......
 
This new law did Hurt a really Fun and Good opportunity for me and my family to enjoy hunting together.

I have found more enjoyment lately being in the outdoors and checking the trail cameras I setup vs actually harvesting an animal.

My brother has shot 1 deer in his life at the age 14 and he didn't enjoy that moment and so his sons and daughters have never killed an animal, but they love coming out on the hunt with us and checking the cameras and feeling like they are part of the Family Tradition. I have a lot of friends that enjoy this activity with me for the same reasons.

This isn't a situation where there are 25 tags in camp and you go an decimate every living animal. Tags aren't that abundant anymore and if we just waited until we had a tag to enjoy the mountains, well then my family tradition would be gone.

Yes, I use them for hunting and trying to harvest a respectable animal in my eyes. I had a Book Cliffs Archery Elk tag in 2019 and it took me 17 days to get my elk, even with trail cameras. During that season I only had 1 opportunity at a 4 point rag horn that came into a pond to drink, I passed on him. It was so hot and dry that animals were not very active during daylight hours and there were no bugles. The trail cams at least kept me interested to keep going. Luckily I had the time others did not and only 8 of us out of 42 got an elk. I guess I'm not a good hunter though because I didn't do it in a loin cloth. This was the best odds over the last 5 years for archery but the rifle hunt hoovers around 90% to 100% year in and out.

This issue has come up because you have Grown Ass adults who act like children on the mountain and they can't get along and therefore the few bad apples (no pun) ruin it for the majority of good guys. Jealously is never a good way to rule...

I have never sold this info or do I use Cellular cameras. I believe in fair chase too. I have lots of story's just like everyone else but this is a jealously issue because of DipShits out there. Everyone has there opinion and this is mine.
 
I'm glad they finally banned them. I don't agree that it will boost deer/ elk numbers. It will however eliminate someone showing pics of my big, huge, gigantic, long, distinguished... belly. while hunting next to a water hole.
 
slamdunk said:
I'm starting to think you've never stepped foot on the Paunsaugunt during rifle season......
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I'm starting to think you blow a lot of smoke. Claim to be an advocate for deer health, but won't push the issues that will help the herd.....hence giving up your long range Lapua. Talk to me when your ready to make a change that will help.
 
So, when are they going to ban guiding and/or paid spotters without hunters present? Until that is done, your trophy animals will still very much be targeted, followed and watched every day by people paid to do so, which will ultimately result in these animals still killed. Only thing that will change now, is the working class family man who doesn’t have the free time these guys have, will no longer have any chance and out scouting or targeting trophy animals on their OIL draw tags. Just the paid outfitters will benefit from this rule. Well done WB. Another step in the direction of pay to play hunting and boning the little man once again.
 
I can see this restriction helping to curb hunters abilities to kill a particular Buck or Bull, but i can't see how it will help reduce overall harvest. IMO, it will go the other way. Hunters will be less likely to hold out for that particular Buck/Bull, and will be more likely to shoot the first "good one" that comes by.
 
Bigwiffy said:
So banning bait and trail cams really only impacts archery guys. When are they going to quit catering to the rifle guys that have the biggest impact on the herd? Let me know when thermal imagery is addressed, long range rifle setups, apps that tell you where to aim, rifle elk hunt moved out of the rut, defecated hunter program etc. etc. etc. Until then, these bans will do nothing to help the overall herd health. Save a few bucks? Maybe, but nothing to improve overall deer numbers.
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You'd complain if you were hung with a new rope.
 
What about Google Earth. I'm sure it has aided in killing animals... Lets give a Trespassing ticket to everyone who uses google earth between Aug 1st and Dec 31st who looks at an area of private ground, plus we get to steal or ruin there computer if it is found during these dates. And if they browse Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops looking for a Trail Cam, BOOM Destroy it.
 
elkassassin said:
Only Partially Right There Hossy!

When The Fawn Buck is Breeding it's Mother You've Got a Problem There!

As Stated Above!

The PISSCUTTER 2 Point Doing the Breeding Ain't a Big Issue IF,And I F'N Repeat IF,The Buck is Packing Some Good Genetics!

But These ImBred Dinks,that came From Several Generations of Their Dad,GrendDad,Great-GrandDad being a Spike & So On Ain't Cutting It!

What Do You End Up With?

The PISS POOR Quality Herd We Have Today!

Along With 49+ Other Issues & Reasons Why!

I'm Not Sayin What Few Are Left Ain't Getting Bred But GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY Get out of The House & Go See What's Left Come Rut Time!
Click to expand...


The only "genetics" that matter is disease resistance. Older bucks prove they lived to be old and not die of disease.
The rest of the "genetics" talk is about inches.

The DATA is showing we have a NUTRITION issue. The entire breeding/birthing cycle is dependent on nutrition. More specifically. WHEN that nutrition is availabile.

Like it or not, climate change IS changing "the green wave". Snow recedes too fast, best nutrition doesn't hang around long enough.

Or simply put, FAT DOES CREATE HERDS.

Too many 2nd rut, or 2nd cycle does, because they aren't recovered and refueled, means too many late fawns that die that winter. Too many fawns born spread out, giving bears and yotes plenty of time to get them.

Combine that with loss of winter range, beetle killed wastelands, and old sage.

I keep saying it.

AI has the highest concentration of mature bucks per acre in Utah. If available weiners made herds, AI would explode.

It doesn't. Because AI can't feed a big herd.

AI doesn't have bears, or cats. Has only 2permits. Doesn't have elk competing.

Is it an ego thing for dudes to hear males aren't that necessary?
 
Broadside_Shot said:
What about Google Earth. I'm sure it has aided in killing animals... Lets give a Trespassing ticket to everyone who uses google earth between Aug 1st and Dec 31st who looks at an area of private ground, plus we get to steal or ruin there computer if it is found during these dates. And if they browse Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops looking for a Trail Cam, BOOM Destroy it.
Click to expand...

If you leave your computer on public ground, it should be.

What's the difference in a cam left in the forest, or a beer can, old car, etc?

But I'm not sure you quite understand how Google Earth works
 
Well actually slam, Troy justensen told me on the phone last year that banning baiting and trail cams was going to be a major game changer for the herds.

He told me that every year we are killing the cream of the crop and that’s because of trail cams.

So you see, the organizations that have pushed for these changes either aren’t communicating the messages amongst themselves, or they’re confused on what they’re hoping to accomplish.

He informed me that baiting and cameras are hurting the populations the most and that’s why they need to go.

So naturally, I asked him if we were planning to move the elk hunt out of the rut with a rifle?
I also naturally asked if we were going after finders fees and multiple guides sitting on animals all year too.

And I naturally asked if we were going to collect good, reliable data on wound rates.

What about other technology? You see, I ask these basic questions because, slam, many many many other people are equating the bans to growing the deer and elk herds. And these are people have a big microphone.

People have been screaming, DO SOMETHING, DO SOMETHING. Well, it’s like gun control. We need to DO SOMETHING. Well, how often is that “DO SOMETHING” really anything to do with the problem? Never.

I get it. Your vendetta is against baiting and against cameras. I get it, believe me, I do.

I am against long range shooting on live animals.

But Rather than pass do nothing laws, I’d much prefer a real approach that solves the actual problems.

So even though your mind is blown on how many people still believe the bans are about “helping the herd”, just remember, it’s being sold as a bag of goods that will. Just remember, there are those people, like mr elk slayer, that believe to way to more bucks is to stop killing bucks. When in reality, that’s a small piece of a large puzzle.

You and I will forever agree on most things. I do not agree with your vendetta here. You
Believe baiting and cameras are the lazy way. To a degree, you could say you’re right. And I equally as much could say, so is getting the gunwerks out, the software, hiring the big name guides,
Fly in, shoot your animal, 600-1000 yards with a fancy gunwerks gun, is far lazier than baiting or a camera.

But, the main difference between us two men is, I’d never, never push to ban that from you or anyone.

I don’t believe mule deer foundation, or sfw or anyone else that’s “pro” hunting should be doing the dirty work of the anti hunters. And that’s precisely what the baiting ban was. You didn’t even make them spend a dime to defeat hunters. You paid for it yourself.

You gave them a freebie and now they can just move on to whatever their next fight will be. With them having a cash savings in their pocket.
 
Bux n Dux said:
So, when are they going to ban guiding and/or paid spotters without hunters present? Until that is done, your trophy animals will still very much be targeted, followed and watched every day by people paid to do so, which will ultimately result in these animals still killed. Only thing that will change now, is the working class family man who doesn’t have the free time these guys have, will no longer have any chance and out scouting or targeting trophy animals on their OIL draw tags. Just the paid outfitters will benefit from this rule. Well done WB. Another step in the direction of pay to play hunting and boning the little man once again.
Click to expand...
So, you mean in America folks who want something more, work hard to achieve it, and sacrifice for it, get rewarded?

I'll be damned
 
Dconcrete said:
Well actually slam, Troy justensen told me on the phone last year that banning baiting and trail cams was going to be a major game changer for the herds.

He told me that every year we are killing the cream of the crop and that’s because of trail cams.

So you see, the organizations that have pushed for these changes either aren’t communicating the messages amongst themselves, or they’re confused on what they’re hoping to accomplish.

He informed me that baiting and cameras are hurting the populations the most and that’s why they need to go.

So naturally, I asked him if we were planning to move the elk hunt out of the rut with a rifle?
I also naturally asked if we were going after finders fees and multiple guides sitting on animals all year too.

And I naturally asked if we were going to collect good, reliable data on wound rates.

What about other technology? You see, I ask these basic questions because, slam, many many many other people are equating the bans to growing the deer and elk herds. And these are people have a big microphone.

People have been screaming, DO SOMETHING, DO SOMETHING. Well, it’s like gun control. We need to DO SOMETHING. Well, how often is that “DO SOMETHING” really anything to do with the problem? Never.

I get it. Your vendetta is against baiting and against cameras. I get it, believe me, I do.

I am against long range shooting on live animals.

But Rather than pass do nothing laws, I’d much prefer a real approach that solves the actual problems.

So even though your mind is blown on how many people still believe the bans are about “helping the herd”, just remember, it’s being sold as a bag of goods that will. Just remember, there are those people, like mr elk slayer, that believe to way to more bucks is to stop killing bucks. When in reality, that’s a small piece of a large puzzle.

You and I will forever agree on most things. I do not agree with your vendetta here. You
Believe baiting and cameras are the lazy way. To a degree, you could say you’re right. And I equally as much could say, so is getting the gunwerks out, the software, hiring the big name guides,
Fly in, shoot your animal, 600-1000 yards with a fancy gunwerks gun, is far lazier than baiting or a camera.

But, the main difference between us two men is, I’d never, never push to ban that from you or anyone.

I don’t believe mule deer foundation, or sfw or anyone else that’s “pro” hunting should be doing the dirty work of the anti hunters. And that’s precisely what the baiting ban was. You didn’t even make them spend a dime to defeat hunters. You paid for it yourself.

You gave them a freebie and now they can just move on to whatever their next fight will be. With them having a cash savings in their pocket.
Click to expand...


Simple question.

Do you use a hand mixer for concrete? Or trucks and pumps?

Why do you use trucks and pumps? Efficiency and productivity?

Same reason for bait and cams.

It not ONLY about "cream of the crop".

It's about harassing animals 24/7 365. With bait it included changing migration patterns as well

But I'm with you. Let's go after the guides and spotters as well. I'm all for banning guides on public land. Where do I sign up?
 
Bigwiffy said:
I'm starting to think you blow a lot of smoke. Claim to be an advocate for deer health, but won't push the issues that will help the herd.....hence giving up your long range Lapua. Talk to me when your ready to make a change that will help.
Click to expand...
Lol....you're killin me smalls!!

If you've ever read or really followed my posts, you'd have read i have killed 3 animals with my Lapua, all 3 were less than 150 yards max.
Bessy was witness to the very first one.

I love your blind and deaf comment about what I am personally doing to help improve overall deer numbers ?

If we had one year left with cams, I'd love to show you a dozen guzzlers on the Pauns next year during the rifle hunt that would have at least 6 cameras on any and all of them 24/7.
 
Dconcrete.....cams and baiting aren't used to hunt female species, not in the masses that males are.

I'm sure his comments was blended with both issues.
 
slamdunk said:
Lol....you're killin me smalls!!

If you've ever read or really followed my posts, you'd have read i have killed 3 animals with my Lapua, all 3 were less than 150 yards max.
Bessy was witness to the very first one.

I love your blind and deaf comment about what I am personally doing to help improve overall deer numbers ?

If we had one year left with cams, I'd love to show you a dozen guzzlers on the Pauns next year during the rifle hunt that would have at least 6 cameras on any and all of them 24/7.
Click to expand...
What's your point? Your Lapua killed the animals, not the cameras on the water....
 
slamdunk said:
Lol....you're killin me smalls!!

If you've ever read or really followed my posts, you'd have read i have killed 3 animals with my Lapua, all 3 were less than 150 yards max.
Bessy was witness to the very first one.

I love your blind and deaf comment about what I am personally doing to help improve overall deer numbers ?

If we had one year left with cams, I'd love to show you a dozen guzzlers on the Pauns next year during the rifle hunt that would have at least 6 cameras on any and all of them 24/7.
Click to expand...


I'll show you random elk wallows on the n slope with that many.

And show you dudes wandering into them to "check their cams(bust out bulls) during end of archery, and youth season
 
Only Partially Right There Hossy!
elkassassin said:
When The Fawn Buck is Breeding it's Mother You've Got a Problem There!

As Stated Above!

The PISSCUTTER 2 Point Doing the Breeding Ain't a Big Issue IF,And I F'N Repeat IF,The Buck is Packing Some Good Genetics!

But These ImBred Dinks,that came From Several Generations of Their Dad,GrendDad,Great-GrandDad being a Spike & So On Ain't Cutting It!

What Do You End Up With?

The PISS POOR Quality Herd We Have Today!

Along With 49+ Other Issues & Reasons Why!

I'm Not Sayin What Few Are Left Ain't Getting Bred But GOOD GAWD A MIGHTY Get out of The House & Go See What's Left Come Rut Time!
Click to expand...
This is spot on. Let’s look at the numbers, take this with a grain of salt because it is Utah. Utah estimates we have 315,000 deer in the state so let’s call that an even 300,000. With a roughly 20:80 buck to doe ratio that means we have about 240,000 does in the state of utah. Now if we fill every doe tag issued which was 935 that equals 0.39 percent of the total population. It’s not even putting a dent in the population, yeah we also need to take into account predators and what not also. I’m not advocating for shooting more does, I’m on board with lowering tag numbers or getting rid of antlerless hunts altogether, but it’s not the main problem with our herds.
 
It would be awesome to ban guided hunts and spotters in the lower 48.What ever happened to the do it on your own mentality.I would be ok with Outfitters being used to get hunters into remote areas as in a drop camp situation and helping packing out,And only that in an outfitting business.There are a few ethical hunters that do not have the resources to raise and care for there own stock.Close down most of the dirt roads and walk in or ride! That would help the wildlife.
 
Elkslayer1125 said:
Only Partially Right There Hossy!

This is spot on. Let’s look at the numbers, take this with a grain of salt because it is Utah. Utah estimates we have 315,000 deer in the state so let’s call that an even 300,000. With a roughly 20:80 buck to doe ratio that means we have about 240,000 does in the state of utah. Now if we fill every doe tag issued which was 935 that equals 0.39 percent of the total population. It’s not even putting a dent in the population, yeah we also need to take into account predators and what not also. I’m not advocating for shooting more does, I’m on board with lowering tag numbers or getting rid of antlerless hunts altogether, but it’s not the main problem with our herds.
Click to expand...


Each doe you kill is producing fawns conceivably for 5-6 years, some will be twins.
A percentage of those fawns will be does, which would do the same.

Killing 935 bucks means you killed 935 bucks.

Each doe is responsible for dozens of deer in her lifetime. The number compounding each year with new fawns
 
hossblur said:
Each doe you kill is producing fawns conceivably for 5-6 years, some will be twins.
A percentage of those fawns will be does, which would do the same.

Killing 935 bucks means you killed 935 bucks.

Each doe is responsible for dozens of deer in her lifetime. The number compounding each year with new fawns
Click to expand...
Good to see a few who understand!
 
Will someone please start a thread on how to bring DOES back that doesn't involve talking about advanced technology, trail cams, baiting, flir or long range weapons for gawd sake??
 
Being part of nature is a big part of hunting for me, but I always felt like things were less natural in the field when I know there are so many trail cameras out there, including many that I don’t see. I use my share of equipment and technology, but I did not feel the need to deploy cameras all over the place. It’s a positive change from my point of view, but it was not a huge issue for me either way and I hope it doesn’t take out too much of the enjoyment of hunting for others.
 
How did it go from satellite trail cams (which is the ban than was put out to the public initially) to an all out trail cam ban? The vote wasn't even on the agenda for the meeting.....putting these changes in the hands of legislature/politicians will continue and has already bit us in the butt.
 
I watched 5 different groups of doe for 5 weeks from the week before thanksgiving up to the week of Christmas. Not one buck in with those five groups during that time. Buck did not make it when they were hot. 5 groups of doe with no fawns. Not enough bucks to make it to all these groups.
 
southernutahhunter said:
I watched 5 different groups of doe for 5 weeks from the week before thanksgiving up to the week of Christmas. Not one buck in with those five groups during that time. Buck did not make it when they were hot. 5 groups of doe with no fawns. Not enough bucks to make it to all these
Click to expand...
Wow none of them were bred? How do you know?
 
Did the passionate pro trail cam folks on this thread attend their RAC meeting and argue for their cams? Did ya'll write letters to the wildlife board and attend this meeting? If I was a super camera guy that loved them so, man I would be front and center takin time off work to get my voice heard. Arguing on Monster Muleys isn't gonna help your cause fella's
 
Airborne said:
Did the passionate pro trail cam folks on this thread attend their RAC meeting and argue for their cams? Did ya'll write letters to the wildlife board and attend this meeting? If I was a super camera guy that loved them so, man I would be front and center takin time off work to get my voice heard. Arguing on Monster Muleys isn't gonna help your cause fella's
Click to expand...
You've obviously never been to a RAC meeting
 
I have no idea if this will actually "help" but of one thing I'm sure: I hate added regulations and government over-reach, especially when it's NOT science-based.

The camera ban is an emotional fix, not a scientific fix IMHO.

Oh, did I say I hate hunter-limiting regulation? Yes, I did.

I've never used a trail cam, ever, but this seems just like big gov to me.

Zeke
 
southernutahhunter said:
I watched 5 different groups of doe for 5 weeks from the week before thanksgiving up to the week of Christmas. Not one buck in with those five groups during that time. Buck did not make it when they were hot. 5 groups of doe with no fawns. Not enough bucks to make it to all these groups.
Click to expand...

24/7 for 5 weeks?

And you gps the does?
 
Airborne said:
Did the passionate pro trail cam folks on this thread attend their RAC meeting and argue for their cams? Did ya'll write letters to the wildlife board and attend this meeting? If I was a super camera guy that loved them so, man I would be front and center takin time off work to get my voice heard. Arguing on Monster Muleys isn't gonna help your cause fella's
Click to expand...


Kinda like bait. In the end, going public about how badly you need either, is still not a proud moment.
 
Well good for them in having the courage to make the call. I know not everyone will be a fan and will complain that this will lead to more regulations. It probably will and I'm not a fan in any way of government overreach. However, I don't think that's what's going on in this case. I think they're trying to limit success and they are listening to public input. We need to give the animals more of an advantage unless we want to cut tags more and more and more. Yes we need to grow the herd as well. Limiting take on bucks won't do that, but we also need to give the bucks a break, and one way to do that is limiting technology.
 
Last edited:
went up 2 times each week. The only buck I found in the remote area stayed with the same group he had for the five weeks. Maybe he snuck out when the mamas went to bed?
 
Dconcrete said:
Hunted for 60 years huh? That’s great. I am happy that you’ve had the passion longer than most people do.

With how long you’ve hunted, that puts you hunting mule deer in the glory days of the species. I sincerely doubt you hunted that hard to kill the buck you wanted. Even with a 30-30. Unless you’re just a shitty shot and a shitty hunter.

Slam, we won’t agree on the baiting or not. Or the trail cams or not.

However, I like to hunt them both ways that you’ve posted. Oddly enough, as much baiting as I’ve done, I’ve never killed an ungulate over bait. Not even my Whitetail’s. And I still have the passion for baiting. Always will.

The internet has done far more damage to the herds and to hunting than any other factor.

Trail cams and bait piles aren’t killing the does. We both know does and fawn survival rate is the biggest problem facing the deer. Trail cams and bait are nowhere nearly as detrimental to the herds as: the ridiculous amount of antlerless tags, the ridiculous season dates, vehicles, weather, general pressure, predators, an unadmitted wound rate, poaching, loss of habitat, the increase in elk, weapons across the board that are capable of a lot more these days. Bows, muzzy, and rifles.

The problems are many. No I don’t agree that trail cams and baiting was a step in the right direction. These aren’t what’s killing the does and fawns.

Are people killing more bucks? Probably. But I’d wager long range shooting from all weapons has had a 50 times more negative impact on the buck and bull population than bait or cams.
Click to expand...
Well then let's ban and limit technology so we can't shoot such long ranges with all weapons.
 
southernutahhunter said:
I watched 5 different groups of doe for 5 weeks from the week before thanksgiving up to the week of Christmas. Not one buck in with those five groups during that time. Buck did not make it when they were hot. 5 groups of doe with no fawns. Not enough bucks to make it to all these groups.
Click to expand...
Just because you didn't see a buck with the groups of doe, doesn't mean one didn't wander through.
 
Bigwiffy said:
You've obviously never been to a RAC meeting
Click to expand...
I have gone to RAC's, I have spoke publicly at RACs, I have called RAC members about issues, I have written emails to RAC members and WB members. Hell, I'm the guy that called my Utah state representative and convinced him to vote in favor of allowing regular beer in Utah grocery stores and that dude is a super mormon! so yeah---I do walk the walk and I think that being vocal does help. And if my opinion is ignored, welp I can honestly look in the mirror and say I tried instead of only whining on Monster Muleys.
 
Having had a hunt messed up by people "just out checking their trail cams" This does not bother me.

A few years ago on my LE Elk hunt it was opening morning early still and we were calling in a Bull that was one we had been looking at. All of a sudden a bunch of machines came in close enough that he got quiet and bailed out of there. We heard the machines stop as we are hiking back to ours we saw their machines parked in the same area. They came back a bit later saying how they were just checking their cams as the had a muzzleloader tag. This is at almost 8am opening morning of the rifle hunt. They weren't checking cams they were out screwing up others hunts and using that as an excuse. We share the mountains with many others. especially those that are out riding their UTV's etc. on the weekends. I expect those but rarely are they out not long after first light.
 
I come from the old days, when we put cattle on the range we put extra bulls with the cows, to make sure they they got with calf, that what you got to with deer, put more bucks with the does to make sure they get with a fawn the first time around, I like to see DWR go to a 10 day hunt for archery, 5 day for muzzle, get rid of these high powered muzzleloader, make sure the bullet and powder loads down the barrel, go back to open sight and 1 power scopes, 5 day hunt for Rifle, no Doe hunts and go to 3 point or better for a few years till our buck herd gets back, BUT NO DOE HUNTS, STOP ALL ELK AND DEER ON Jan 1st. And no horn hunting till April 15
 
dogvalleymule said:
I come from the old days, when we put cattle on the range we put extra bulls with the cows, to make sure they they got with calf, that what you got to with deer, put more bucks with the does to make sure they get with a fawn the first time around, I like to see DWR go to a 10 day hunt for archery, 5 day for muzzle, get rid of these high powered muzzleloader, make sure the bullet and powder loads down the barrel, go back to open sight and 1 power scopes, 5 day hunt for Rifle, no Doe hunts and go to 3 point or better for a few years till our buck herd gets back, BUT NO DOE HUNTS, STOP ALL ELK AND DEER ON Jan 1st. And no horn hunting till April 15
Click to expand...


Put 12 bucks with every doe. If she isn't hot, it don't matter.


You guys, you FUND all this research with YOUR licenses, fees, etc.

DO NONE OF YOU READ?

WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH DOES. WE LOSE TOO MANY FAWNS.

Ain't got a thing to do with bucks, pisscutters or 200".

It's NUTRITION, and killing coyotes AS FAWNS ARE HITTING THE GROUND.


Further. The collar studies are showing how migratory deer are. Pretty unlikely the does in an area sat still for 5weeks, and for sure bucks didn't.
 
On the Beaver, dog valley, Hawkins, cottonwood, little dog, bender pond, big dog Valley, lot of feed ( bitter brush, grass, sage brush, and etc ) but no deer to eat it, not enough bucks to breed what does are their, the does need to get with fawn the first time around, to have stronger fawn.
 
bucks said:
Hopefully they get the long range rifles outlawed also, get back to the basics of hunting!
Click to expand...
Define "long range rifles"
I've personally taken deer at 700+ yards "back in the day" with a Remington 700 BDL in 25-06 with a Tasco World Class scope on it.

You can't be effective banning turret scoped rifles that 20% (if that) use and still allow people to take pot shots with 30-06's at over 500 yards.
Are we going to make a 400 yard maximum rule regardless of set up??

Wiffy is already blaming me for herd declines because I've killed 2 deer under 150 yards with my Lapua!
 
The only time you should ever shoot does in a declining population is if you can prove deer will die of malnutrition. That is to say over carrying capacity.

If you're trying to build up a salmon run, it makes no sense to kill egg laden females in the spawning river. It's the same principle.

I'll be looking for "Trail Cams For Sale" in the Classified Forum. :ROFLMAO:
 
slamdunk said:
Define "long range rifles"
I've personally taken deer at 700+ yards "back in the day" with a Remington 700 BDL in 25-06 with a Tasco World Class scope on it.

You can't be effective banning turret scoped rifles that 20% (if that) use and still allow people to take pot shots with 30-06's at over 500 yards.
Are we going to make a 400 yard maximum rule regardless of set up??

Wiffy is already blaming me for herd declines because I've killed 2 deer under 150 yards with my Lapua!
Click to expand...
Haha don't get so defensive Slam. Your not the whole problem only part of it. Ban everything but keep your weaponry that does the most killing. All your whining about baiting, cameras, archery hunters, muzzy hunters will eventually bite you in the butt. Now that we have allowed politics to get involved it's only downhill from here. Personal agendas pushed in the name of conservation. You better stretch that Lapua out and see what it's got, it will be banned soon.
 
slamdunk said:
Define "long range rifles"
I've personally taken deer at 700+ yards "back in the day" with a Remington 700 BDL in 25-06 with a Tasco World Class scope on it.

You can't be effective banning turret scoped rifles that 20% (if that) use and still allow people to take pot shots with 30-06's at over 500 yards.
Are we going to make a 400 yard maximum rule regardless of set up??

Wiffy is already blaming me for herd declines because I've killed 2 deer under 150 yards with my Lapua!
Click to expand...
Their plan is to eliminate the use of range finders. So in reality the long range rifles won’t do any good if you don’t know how far the animal is.
 
Bigwiffy said:
Haha don't get so defensive Slam. Your not the whole problem only part of it. Ban everything but keep your weaponry that does the most killing. All your whining about baiting, cameras, archery hunters, muzzy hunters will eventually bite you in the butt. Now that we have allowed politics to get involved it's only downhill from here. Personal agendas pushed in the name of conservation. You better stretch that Lapua out and see what it's got, it will be banned soon.
Click to expand...
Lol wiff, you're seriously killin me.
I am "part of the problem" because I own a Lapua that has killed two short range deer in 6 years?
How many hours have YOU logged planting habitat for mule deer and how many hours of your personal life have you donated to conservation efforts?

I'll wait....
 
slamdunk said:
Lol wiff, you're seriously killin me.
I am "part of the problem" because I own a Lapua that has killed two short range deer in 6 years?
How many hours have YOU logged planting habitat for mule deer and how many hours of your personal life have you donated to conservation efforts?

I'll wait....
Click to expand...
I've planted 3.6 million shrub oak in the ground with my boots, killed 27k coyotes, nearly beat Charlton Heston for NRA president, picked cheat grass off of 6 million acres of Mt. Dutton. Built 56 guzzlers on the Paunsaugunt, got ran over by a semi to save a does life on HWY 89, killed 19 lions with my atalatal.....that was all just last week.
 
Bigwiffy said:
I've planted 3.6 million shrub oak in the ground with my boots, killed 27k coyotes, nearly beat Charlton Heston for NRA president, picked cheat grass off of 6 million acres of Mt. Dutton. Built 56 guzzlers on the Paunsaugunt, got ran over by a semi to save a does life on HWY 89, killed 19 lions with my atalatal.....that was all just last week.
Click to expand...
Well I'll eat humble pie and pray you get some good rest my friend!?
 

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