Wyo Task Force - Nonres Comments!

J

jims

Long Time Member
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If you are a concerned nonres and have years of applications and $ invested into the Wyo pref pt system....especially for the Big 5 species you can submit comments directly to the Task Force for the July 8th meeting. You must do this by 5:00 pm on July 6th!

90:10 would cut nonres limited tags in 1/2 and require twice as long for ALL nonres to draw tags. For the Big 5 this would likely mean that those that don't have max pts or close to max pts may never draw tags. Nonres that have invested years and $ into a draw system will suddenly have the light switch flipped off with these changes!

The more nonres willing to comment, the more attention will be given to nonres at this and other meetings!. There are no nonres members on the Task Force even though nonres stand to loose so much with decisions made! Sending comments is the only voice you have unless you attend one of their meetings.

Here's a link to submit your comments: https://sites.google.com/wyo.gov/wyomingwildlifetaskforce/home/public-input
 
jims said:
If you are a concerned nonres and have years of applications and $ invested into the Wyo pref pt system....especially for the Big 5 species you can submit comments directly to the Task Force for the July 8th meeting. You must do this by 5:00 pm on July 6th!

90:10 would cut nonres limited tags in 1/2 and require twice as long for ALL nonres to draw tags. For the Big 5 this would likely mean that those that don't have max pts or close to max pts may never draw tags. Nonres that have invested years and $ into a draw system will suddenly have the light switch flipped off with these changes!

The more nonres willing to comment, the more attention will be given to nonres at this and other meetings!. There are no nonres members on the Task Force even though nonres stand to loose so much with decisions made! Sending comments is the only voice you have unless you attend one of their meetings.

Here's a link to submit your comments: https://sites.google.com/wyo.gov/wyomingwildlifetaskforce/home/public-input
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A guy who lives in Colorado creates a post about Wyoming going to 90/10, but syas nothing about his state considering going 90/10. What a joke.

Remember folks this is the same guy who promised a handicapped hunter if he shared his Wyo points he would help him kill a big buck, but from emails and texts to me, he was out hunting from himself. Did I say what a joke....
 
Gh, you know nothing! I’m an advocate for DIY hunters and am not supporting Colo cutting nonres tags!

I actually met the good friend you are referring to in Wyo on 2 or 3 scouting trips and 2 hunting trips last year. He got a great muley and actually got a high scoring B&C antelope hunting with me a few years before that!

It’s obvious you are upset I’m bringing this to the attention of nonres hunters that have invested years and a pile of $ into applying for Wyo big game tags.

If you are a nonres be sure to email your comments to the address in my first post before the July 6 deadline! If there is an overwhelming response our voice will be heard!
 
Thank you.
I have commented. As has been posted in other posts, I probably will just stop applying like I have in New Mexico. I don’t expect residents to care what I think but consider how you want to be treated as non residents in other states.
 
Looks like the TF is supposed to look for more opportunities for Residents. Absent increasing tags the only way to increase opportunities is too grab tags for the NR pool sad to say.
 
Paradox said:
Thank you.
I have commented. As has been posted in other posts, I probably will just stop applying like I have in New Mexico. I don’t expect residents to care what I think but consider how you want to be treated as non residents in other states.
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That's exactly what I'm thinking about.

I apply in most all the Western States, where, as a NR, I'm allocated from 0-10% of the available tags.

I'm fine with that and I'm just happy that those States allow me to even apply for tags that some of their resident hunters very likely will never draw.

It's totally appropriate that Residents of Wyoming keep 90% of the allocation for the Residents that live here...its the same standard as every other State, including Colorado enjoys.
 
Colo offers unlimited elk tags to nonres in OTC units plus 35% of limited tags for deer elk and antelope. Neighboring Wyo offers a chunk less than that for those species at their current 2021 tag quotas!

Wyo nonres also support 77% of the total license and preference point revenue! It's amazing that nonres support the WG&F so well and res want to cut their opportunity for limited licenses in 1/2!
Res_Vs_Non.jpg
 
jims said:
Colo offers unlimited elk tags to nonres in OTC units plus 35% of limited tags for deer elk and antelope. Neighboring Wyo offers a chunk less than that for those species at their current 2021 tag quotas!

Wyo nonres also support 77% of the total license and preference point revenue! It's amazing that nonres support the WG&F so well and res want to cut their opportunity for limited licenses in 1/2!
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Sebastian,

Answer the question, what percentage of moose, sheep, and goat licenses do NR's receive in Colorado?

Is it even 10%?

How about in low quota deer and elk areas? Is it 10%?

What percentage of RFW elk, deer, and pronghorn tags are allocated to NR's in the draw in Colorado?

Answer the questions.
 
Curious......does 90/10 apply to all draws acrossed the board or just limited quota? Will this mean only 10% of tags to NR for say general deer or antelope units that require 1 point or less?
 
Lhedrick1 said:
Curious......does 90/10 apply to all draws acrossed the board or just limited quota? Will this mean only 10% of tags to NR for say general deer or antelope units that require 1 point or less?
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Right now all that's being discussed is moose, sheep, goat, bison, and grizzly bear.

There are no general pronghorn tags.

Deer are a bit different with region wide NR tags for a majority of the areas, with some LQ deer in others.

There is no talk of reducing NR region wide deer tags, outside of the GF recommendations for annual season setting based on biology.
 
Just got back from the lake. For Colo limited quota elk and deer it’s 35% tags for all but a few premium units that are 20% to nonres. Around 80% of Colos elk units are otc where nonres can hunt each and every year. That’s a pile of tags that Colo offers to nonres!

You are right that sheep moose and goat are more restricted in colo but it’s been that way for 30+ years since the pref pt system was started. Wyo nonres sheep and moose hunters have been charged high pref pt fees in wyo for years and years and suddenly Wyo res want to cut those that have been applying for year’s throats . I’m sure this doesn’t matter to you Buzz but how about the nonres that have been 1 pt away from drawing a sheep or moose tag and paying high fees for 24+ years!

Wyo res don't even have deer, elk, or antelope pref pts and it's the nonres that have been flipping the bill for high pref pt fees that support the WG&F for those species as well!
 
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jims said:
Just got back from the lake. For Colo limited quota elk and deer it’s 35% tags for all but a few premium units that are 20% to nonres. Around 80% of Colos elk units are otc where nonres can hunt each and every year. That’s a pile of tags that Colo offers to nonres!

You are right that sheep moose and goat are more restricted in colo but it’s been that way for 30+ years since the pref pt system was started. Wyo nonres sheep and moose hunters have been charged high pref pt fees in wyo for years and years and suddenly Wyo res want to cut those that have been applying for year’s throats . I’m sure this doesn’t matter to you Buzz but how about the nonres that have been 1 pt away from drawing a sheep or moose tag and paying high fees for 24+ years!

Wyo res don't even have deer, elk, or antelope pref pts and it's the nonres that have been flipping the bill for high pref pt fees that support the WG&F for those species as well!
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You didn't answer the questions.

But I'll answer yours, no I don't care about NR's that are a point from drawing, mainly because they're chasing the very best areas in the State, like a whole bunch of others. That's a choice, they could have drawn both moose and sheep tags for the last 10 years or more.

Where did it ever say things would never be changed? Answer: It didn't. Never a promise of a tag, ever.

Did you care when CO jerked the rug out from under thousands of NR's when they took away the ability for them to apply for RFW tags?

Can you post the letters you wrote opposing that?

Did you care when CO totally screwed NR's that had fronted money for sheep, moose, and goat for decades and stopped that requirement 4 years ago?

Can you post the letters you wrote opposing that, an action that crushed NR odds for those that had faithfully applied for decades having to front thousands of dollars a year?

I'm sure none of that mattered(s) to you Sebastian.

You're as hypocritical as you are ridiculous. You don't care about NR's in Colorado anymore than you care about how Residents are treated in Wyoming.

You're the very definition of selfish...in every way, shape and form.

Got news, its going to change in Wyoming and its well past time it did.
 
I guess Sebastian doesn't want to talk about the way NR's have been abused by the changes NR's have endured over the years in Colorado.

Thanks for doing nothing for NR's!
 
SS! said:
90/10 will be here before you get Jims to answer a question.
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Maybe he's busy finding those emails, letters, and recordings of himself testifying on behalf of NR's in Colorado when they bent us over...
 
Wrote. I sure enjoy hunting in Wyoming. I would love to see the guide requirement in wilderness to go away. I hope they see the value in having so many traveling non residents bringing in big tag money and triple that to the local economies.
 
Buzz
Please enlighten me on what unit I could of been hunting the last 21 years. Without having to spend money I do not have to hire an expensive guide due to the wilderness ruling.
Thanks
 
Buzz please tell me the unit I could of hunted but <type excuse here > ?

WY didn’t promise you a tag and it’s no one’s fault but your own that you can’t afford a guide. If it’s that much of a priority make it happen.

@nfh how is your scouting going for your 90/10 tag? It’s a little foggy in my spot this year. On an unrelated note BuzzH capitalized years ago on hunting this area. It’s a draw now. Get while the getting is good…

42F1F13B-BC1F-46DD-B0BD-9D90696BD2FE.jpeg
 
LIK2HNT said:
Buzz
Please enlighten me on what unit I could of been hunting the last 21 years. Without having to spend money I do not have to hire an expensive guide due to the wilderness ruling.
Thanks
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Anyone of them...you don't need to spend money on a guide...over 450K people in Wyoming, lots of them Resident hunters that have the ability to get a free guide license.

Maybe instead of arguing with them all the time and being an ass...you should try a different approach.

It worked well for a friend of mine:

2005WyomingDeer4.jpg
 
SS! said:
Buzz please tell me the unit I could of hunted but <type excuse here > ?

WY didn’t promise you a tag and it’s no one’s fault but your own that you can’t afford a guide. If it’s that much of a priority make it happen.

@nfh how is your scouting going for your 90/10 tag? It’s a little foggy in my spot this year. On an unrelated note BuzzH capitalized years ago on hunting this area. It’s a draw now. Get while the getting is good…

View attachment 45346
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I only regret not scraping the money together to go a couple more times...but, I feel good about not missing the boat entirely.

There's 3 types of people in this world... those that make things happen, those that watch things happen, and those that wonder what the $#@K happened...

Seems we have a bunch in the latter 2 categories around here.
 
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Buzz there are simple answers to every one of your questions but I'm not going to waste my time. What I will say is that I'm not supporting Colo going to 90/10! Nonres are super important to the CPW and small town revenue and have invested similar years as Wyo nonres into pref pt systems. I also don't believe that slightly increasing resident draw odds by dramatically cutting nonres tags in 1/2 is worth it! I hold true to this statement in both Colorado and Wyoming!

Another thing I will say with confidence is that if Wyoming goes through with 90/10 for antelope, deer, and elk you can be assured this same thing will happen in Colorado. Colo may also go to the extreme of limiting nonres in current OTC elk units. I would hate to see this happen to nonres that enjoy hunting Colo on a regular basis. It's really a sad day for nonres in both Wyoming and Colorado if this craziness passes in Wyo! It will only strengthen motives to follow suite in Colorado....which is a real bum deal!

If you are a concerned nonres in regard to loosing 1/2 of the limited tags with 90/10 be sure to voice your opinions by the July 6 deadline. Here's a link to submit your comments: https://sites.google.com/wyo.gov/wyomingwildlifetaskforce/home/public-input
 
The only one talking about 90/10 for elk deer and antelope is you Jims. Why? Because it’s scare tactics on your end to trick people to be on your side.

The 90/10 is for the 5 other species. Why not compare apples to apples? CO to WY on moose sheep and goat? We will forgive the other two because your state mismanaged them out of existence. But don’t worry, Wyoming is generous and let’s you hunt Buffalo here.
 
jims said:
Buzz there are simple answers to every one of your questions but I'm not going to waste my time. What I will say is that I'm not supporting Colo going to 90/10! Nonres are super important to the CPW and small town revenue and have invested similar years as Wyo nonres into pref pt systems. I also don't believe that slightly increasing resident draw odds by dramatically cutting nonres tags in 1/2 is worth it! I hold true to this statement in both Colorado and Wyoming!

Another thing I will say with confidence is that if Wyoming goes through with 90/10 for antelope, deer, and elk you can be assured this same thing will happen in Colorado. Colo may also go to the extreme of limiting nonres in current OTC elk units. I would hate to see this happen to nonres that enjoy hunting Colo on a regular basis. It's really a sad day for nonres in both Wyoming and Colorado if this craziness passes in Wyo! It will only strengthen motives to follow suite in Colorado....which is a real bum deal!

If you are a concerned nonres in regard to loosing 1/2 of the limited tags with 90/10 be sure to voice your opinions by the July 6 deadline. Here's a link to submit your comments: https://sites.google.com/wyo.gov/wyomingwildlifetaskforce/home/public-input
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If the answers are so simple...then why don't you answer them? For the record, CO is 100-0 for RFW tags and 90-10 for moose, sheep, and goat.

Lets see the letters you've written the CDOW to increase NR opportunity for those issues...I won't hold my breath waiting for the proof.

I hope CO does limit NR's to 10%...way past time CO residents get some quality hunting and get treated the same as Residents in MT, OR, WA, UT, AZ, NM, etc.

Just think, the hunting will be so good in CO, you won't even have to bother with applying in Wyoming and paying our ridiculously high NR fees...

Win-win for you Sebastian.
 
BuzzH said:
If the answers are so simple...then why don't you answer them? For the record, CO is 100-0 for RFW tags and 90-10 for moose, sheep, and goat.

Lets see the letters you've written the CDOW to increase NR opportunity for those issues...I won't hold my breath waiting for the proof.

I hope CO does limit NR's to 10%...way past time CO residents get some quality hunting and get treated the same as Residents in MT, OR, WA, UT, AZ, NM, etc.

Just think, the hunting will be so good in CO, you won't even have to bother with applying in Wyoming and paying our ridiculously high NR fees...

Win-win for you Sebastian.
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You’re wrong BuzzH. If I learned anything reading Jims posts it’s that he values supporting the local economy more than the tag itself. Oh and he cares about the WYGFD’s budget. The tags are just a bonus. It’s not about the hunt, it’s about supporting local economies by buying two bags of ice for the ride home!
 
I never thought of the poor ice manufacturers...they'll go broke without Sebastian's contribution of his 2 bags of ice...

I buy more than that icing cocktails during Wyoming's brief summer...which reminds me, about time to go pour another gin and tonic to celebrate the 4th and the upcoming 90-10 bill.
 
If only Sebastian would have been around to buy those couple bags of ice...it would be a booming metropolis.
 
How many scouting and hunting trips did I make to Wyo last year? How many will I take this year? How much did I contribute to local small town economies? You Wyo guys have no idea!

How many RFW tags are issued in Wyo? It’s another moot point!

Colo offers 20 to 35% of limited deer, elk, and antelope tags to nonres. Colo offers unlimited elk tags to nonres in 80% of the elk units in Colorado! We are talking about a gob of nonres tags! That’s what matters!
 
jims said:
How many scouting and hunting trips did I make to Wyo last year? How many will I take this year? How much did I contribute to local small town economies? You Wyo guys have no idea!

How many RFW tags are issued in Wyo? It’s another moot point!

Colo offers 20 to 35% of limited deer, elk, and antelope tags to nonres. Colo offers unlimited elk tags to nonres in 80% of the elk units in Colorado! We are talking about a gob of nonres tags! That’s what matters!
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I bet you don’t even answer your own questions….
 
Can't wait to hear how the meeting goes! Keep the great comments coming concerned nonres! Remember, the only voice nonres have is comments presented at these meetings since nonres have 0 task force members.
 
Thanks jims. Will be writing a letter today. you guys can act like kids on this subject and argue back and forth, My time will be spent writing to the task force against 90/10.
 
I really don’t have a dog in this ‘discussion’, but I do know it’s difficult for states to manage wildlife properly while ensuring residents and limited non-residents can enjoy a relatively small resource.

I know when AZ went to ‘no more than 10% (not a guaranteed 10%)’ years ago, it was difficult for me as a non-resident (at the time) to draw good tags every few years. So, I chose to move there when I retired to increase my odds. In three years, I’ve drawn two bull elk tags, an antelope tag, and a Kaibab tag.

I could have moved to my wife’s home state (WY), but chose AZ instead. So what’s all this babble mean? I think a 90/10 split is fair and consistent with other states. If I want to change my draw odds in any particular state, I can always move there and become a resident to increase my odds. JMHO.
 
I would like to remain optimistic and believe the reduction in NR tags for moose and sheep would be made up one day by an increase in tag quota if the populations rebound. But the pessimistic side of me believes that has about the same chance as Jims being honest and transparent. :unsure:
 
SS! said:
I would like to remain optimistic and believe the reduction in NR tags for moose and sheep would be made up one day by an increase in tag quota if the populations rebound. But the pessimistic side of me believes that has about the same chance as Jims being honest and transparent. :unsure:
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This is my biggest issue with the whole change. Herd numbers (sheep and moose) used to support twice as many tags. I wish the task force was focusing on increasing populations rather that reorganizing the tags that are left. I am extremely pessimistic about about populations ever getting back to those levels.
 
LivingTheDream said:
This is my biggest issue with the whole change. Herd numbers (sheep and moose) used to support twice as many tags. I wish the task force was focusing on increasing populations rather that reorganizing the tags that are left. I am extremely pessimistic about about populations ever getting back to those levels.
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Its not the purpose of this TF to address those issues. But I get what you're saying. I do believe a lot of money and time has been spent researching these declines. If you want me to I can email you the papers I've read etc. Lots of interesting data out there.

When numbers get low there's always a reaction. Up here in AK people started complaining about the sheep hunting after a massive winterkill. Working groups were made with different user groups and the data was complied. I sat in on one working group where I knew almost everyone else. Many of us have hunted together and were friends. Rarely did we all agree on a talking point or the answer to a question. One thing that almost everyone agreed on was hunting rams 8 years or older wasn't the reason for the population decline. So what came of this working group/task force? Non resident's were limited to 1 ram every 4 years. Did that do anything to help the resource? Nope. Our numbers are still going down, the real problem is one that probably can't be fixed. You can't control mother nature and stop people from reproducing.....

90/10 is fair for WY residents and NR. If any of you think this is going to kill your chance of getting a moose I'll help you plan a DIY moose hunt in AK. Give up your WY moose points. Hell the tag is 1980 vs 800 for AK. That 1,180 difference will pay for your flight and then some to AK. But you must let your points lapse. Serious offer. Send me a PM. If you have less than 20 points you were never serious about moose hunting in the first place ;)

Have a great week all,
 
I'm a NR who has applied for many years in WY and think that 90/10 is reasonable and fair. Sure, I wish there were unlimited animals to go around but that just isn't reality. I am grateful for the great hunts I've had in Wyoming and other states across the west and I'll continue to play the game as long as I have the opportunity to do so.

Why any 'task force' in Wyoming would care about what a bunch of non-constituents wants is a mystery to me.
 
Sparks Shooter, Nonres revenue is 77% of the total revenue generated by pref pt and license fees. Nonres have been supporting the WG&F the past 25+ years paying high pref pt fees (currently $150/year/nonres hunter for sheep and moose vs $7/res hunter). That's a piddly $7 for Wyo residents!

Wyo residents have generated $0.00 from pref pt revenue for the past 15+ years for deer, elk, and antelope that supports wildlife management for the WG&F.

To top it off Wyo res currently can hunt general deer and elk units every single year. Wyo nonres must draw these same tags.

To say there is lack of hunting opportunity for Wyo residents is a farce! Buzz, how many big game tags do you and your wife have available to hunt this year as residents?

Nonres limited deer, elk, and antelope tags will be cut in 1/2 with 90/10. It will take twice as long for nonres to draw these tags. Premium units will have nearly impossible draw odds. How many nonres young hunters won't even start applying in Wyo in the next 10 to 20 years because draw odds are so poor and pref pts fees are so high? The younger generation of nonres are the real losers with 90/10!

Wyo residents don't understand that stripping 1/2 of the tags from nonres doesn't mean their draw odds will suddenly double. In most instances res draw odds will increase 0 to 2% at most. I've enclosed a couple spread sheets I put together that reflects this. I'm sure Buzz and SS will tear my tables apart but I really don't care. Just want to show that Wyo res draw odds aren't hardly going to be impacted when nonres tags are cut in 1/2!
IMG_4375.jpg
IMG_4376.jpg
 
I understand that NR have historically carried the financial load for WGFD in the past and may continue to do so. I have hunted and fished in Wyoming as a NR for many years. Even if they went to 99/1 and raised the prices to apply by 50% do you think there would ever be tags left over due to lack of interest? I don't think that will ever happen. The other option would be for residents to start carrying the load in exchange for the increased opportunity? Maybe they will enact a state income tax to cover the cost? Whatever they decide to do, it's entirely their choice as it should be. After all, we are ultimately their guests when visiting their state, catching their fish and hunting their animals. The 90 year-old lady at the Kum-and-Go in Kemmerer reminded me of that last time I bought a fishing license.
 
Wyo resident opportunity is pretty amazing as it sits. Opening up 90/10 is just opening the box for outfitter and landowner tags! If you've noticed who is on the task force that have ties to outfitters and landowners everyone that enjoys DIY hunting in Wyo has a reason to be concerned...both res and nonres!
 
BOHNTR said:
I really don’t have a dog in this ‘discussion’, but I do know it’s difficult for states to manage wildlife properly while ensuring residents and limited non-residents can enjoy a relatively small resource.

I know when AZ went to ‘no more than 10% (not a guaranteed 10%)’ years ago, it was difficult for me as a non-resident (at the time) to draw good tags every few years. So, I chose to move there when I retired to increase my odds. In three years, I’ve drawn two bull elk tags, an antelope tag, and a Kaibab tag.

I could have moved to my wife’s home state (WY), but chose AZ instead. So what’s all this babble mean? I think a 90/10 split is fair and consistent with other states. If I want to change my draw odds in any particular state, I can always move there and become a resident to increase my odds. JMHO.
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This....I did the same thing and moved to Wyoming years ago.
 
Obviously I'm concerned about what's going on in Wyo! I grew up in Wyo and have a long history of great times scouting and hunting. I could just sit back and watch but decided to become pro-active and try to get the word out about the task force.

The spookiest part about it is that outfitters and landowners will likely turn around and bite DIY type Wyo res hunters in the butt with the current Task Force members! I don't think Wyo res have a clue what could potentially happen.

If 90/10 passes for the Big 5 it's just the beginning of challenging times for those that enjoy hunting DIY on public land in Wyo...both res and nonres! Mark my word.... if 90/10 passes for the Big 5 it is just the beginning of what's likely to come!
 
Glad you can see that the charts show that it doesn't improve draw odds for residents at the cost of cutting nonres opportunity in 1/2! These cuts affect thousands of nonres and dramatically decreases WG&F pref pt/license revenues while barely improving res opportunity!

The long term impacts of 90/10 are staggering to nonres and revenue.
 
It improved the odds to 100% for 1,400 Resident elk hunters that wouldnt get to hunt quality elk areas in the 6 areas in your example over the next decade.

Same with 100% odds for another 580 Resident deer hunters getting to hunt a quality deer tag in that same decade.

Your example is the classic case for 90-10...and that's exactly how its going to be presented to the task force.

And no, its not going to decrease NR preference points a penny...it will keep them buying points even longer to draw the tags they want.

Also cut down on point pimping...win-win-win.
 
BuzzH said:
It improved the odds to 100% for 1,400 Resident elk hunters that wouldnt get to hunt quality elk areas in the 6 areas in your example over the next decade.

Same with 100% odds for another 580 Resident deer hunters getting to hunt a quality deer tag in that same decade.

Your example is the classic case for 90-10...and that's exactly how its going to be presented to the task force.

And no, its not going to decrease NR preference points a penny...it will keep them buying points even longer to draw the tags they want.

Also cut down on point pimping...win-win-win.
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Everything you say is likely true, except that Moose/Sheep preference point money will be reduced in time (currently brings in a couple of mil per year). The question is, is it worth it?

Facts:

1. There will be less non-resident hunters spending money in Wyoming which equals a reduction in tourism dollars brought into the state.
2. There will be less non-resident hunters $ in license fees coming into Wyoming Game and Fish (options are to raise non-resident fees, raise resident fees or lay people off to off-set those loses or cut something else from the G&F spending).
3. Wyoming resident draw odds increase slightly (on a 10% draw, you go from drawing once every 10 years to drawing once every 9 years or so)
4. Non-resident draw odds decrease in half for LQ areas.
5. Non-residents with points for all species have been baited and the system may be switched on them (those with decades of points are the ones who really get screwed).

Those are the facts we should all be able to agree on. The question is, is it worth it?

Is it fair to the group that funds the majority of the G&F budget and has for a long-time and likely will into the future? The answer is no, but there is no voice for that group and the wildlife is managed by the state.

Everyone understands why residents would want more tags (why wouldn't they?). Yes, it is good for those residents that will get those non-resident tags. I can't think of another example like this out there, but maybe something similar does exist in some industry/group...typically the group paying the bills has a big say in how things operate.

I ask again, Buzz, why not just go 100/0? You have yet to answer that.
 
BuzzH said:
That's exactly what I'm thinking about.

I apply in most all the Western States, where, as a NR, I'm allocated from 0-10% of the available tags.

I'm fine with that and I'm just happy that those States allow me to even apply for tags that some of their resident hunters very likely will never draw.

It's totally appropriate that Residents of Wyoming keep 90% of the allocation for the Residents that live here...its the same standard as every other State, including Colorado enjoys.
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If you say it, it doesn't actually make it true, does it?

You know Colorado is not 10%, not even close for deer, antelope and elk (well over 30% for all of those tags). And New Mexico is over 20% because of transferable landowner tags. You may have a point in a few other bordering states (Utah, Idaho and Montana), but definitely not the case in South Dakota or Nebraska either for deer...It is 3/7 of the surrounding states to Wyoming that are 90/10 and Wyoming has the smallest population of all of those states!

I know everyone can change their minds, completely understand that, but geez, you have gone 180 in a couple of years time.
 
nripepi said:
Everything you say is likely true, except that Moose/Sheep preference point money will be reduced in time (currently brings in a couple of mil per year). The question is, is it worth it?

Facts:

1. There will be less non-resident hunters spending money in Wyoming which equals a reduction in tourism dollars brought into the state.
2. There will be less non-resident hunters $ in license fees coming into Wyoming Game and Fish (options are to raise non-resident fees, raise resident fees or lay people off to off-set those loses or cut something else from the G&F spending).
3. Wyoming resident draw odds increase slightly (on a 10% draw, you go from drawing once every 10 years to drawing once every 9 years or so)
4. Non-resident draw odds decrease in half for LQ areas.
5. Non-residents with points for all species have been baited and the system may be switched on them (those with decades of points are the ones who really get screwed).

Those are the facts we should all be able to agree on. The question is, is it worth it?

Is it fair to the group that funds the majority of the G&F budget and has for a long-time and likely will into the future? The answer is no, but there is no voice for that group and the wildlife is managed by the state.

Everyone understands why residents would want more tags (why wouldn't they?). Yes, it is good for those residents that will get those non-resident tags. I can't think of another example like this out there, but maybe something similar does exist in some industry/group...typically the group paying the bills has a big say in how things operate.

I ask again, Buzz, why not just go 100/0? You have yet to answer that.
Click to expand...
^^^ Your opinions are facts huh? Please share where WYGFD is going to lay people off if they don't raise NR tag prices? We will wait. Do you seriously believe those are the only two options for your "facts"

How much less NR money will be spent due to MSG going to 90/10? How much does the average NR MSG spend in WY? If you are going to claim it will be less please provide some numbers.

How did your "facts" come up with the NR draw odds decrease in half? How do you know that? Think how many people are going to drop out once they hear its 90/10. Guys with less than max who are not sissy la la's will have better odds in the long run.

How is it a bait and switch when there was no promise the point system would stay the same? Show me one points system that hasn't been adjusted since it started? The only fact is point systems change. And you shouldn't go into it thinking its not going to change.
 
nripepi said:
If you say it, it doesn't actually make it true, does it?

You know Colorado is not 10%, not even close for deer, antelope and elk (well over 30% for all of those tags). And New Mexico is over 20% because of transferable landowner tags. You may have a point in a few other bordering states (Utah, Idaho and Montana), but definitely not the case in South Dakota or Nebraska either for deer...It is 3/7 of the surrounding states to Wyoming that are 90/10 and Wyoming has the smallest population of all of those states!

I know everyone can change their minds, completely understand that, but geez, you have gone 180 in a couple of years time.
Click to expand...
Again the 90/10 is not talking about deer elk or pronghorn. Please stay on the subject at hand. Compare MSG from CO to WY and then get back to us :D
 
nripepi said:
Everything you say is likely true, except that Moose/Sheep preference point money will be reduced in time (currently brings in a couple of mil per year). The question is, is it worth it?

Facts:

1. There will be less non-resident hunters spending money in Wyoming which equals a reduction in tourism dollars brought into the state.
2. There will be less non-resident hunters $ in license fees coming into Wyoming Game and Fish (options are to raise non-resident fees, raise resident fees or lay people off to off-set those loses or cut something else from the G&F spending).
3. Wyoming resident draw odds increase slightly (on a 10% draw, you go from drawing once every 10 years to drawing once every 9 years or so)
4. Non-resident draw odds decrease in half for LQ areas.
5. Non-residents with points for all species have been baited and the system may be switched on them (those with decades of points are the ones who really get screwed).

Those are the facts we should all be able to agree on. The question is, is it worth it?

Is it fair to the group that funds the majority of the G&F budget and has for a long-time and likely will into the future? The answer is no, but there is no voice for that group and the wildlife is managed by the state.

Everyone understands why residents would want more tags (why wouldn't they?). Yes, it is good for those residents that will get those non-resident tags. I can't think of another example like this out there, but maybe something similar does exist in some industry/group...typically the group paying the bills has a big say in how things operate.

I ask again, Buzz, why not just go 100/0? You have yet to answer that.
Click to expand...
Your numbers 1, 2, 5 are not facts at all.

Its also not true that NR's fund a majority of the budget.

Meaning, you need to do some more research and get your "facts" straight.
 
BuzzH said:
And no, its not going to decrease NR preference points a penny...it will keep them buying points even longer to draw the tags they want
Click to expand...

I honestly believe this won't be the case. I believe the recent surge in point creep is people getting out. As an example, once I draw the tags I want I am done, so is my dad and I won't be buying any points for my kids...I know, good riddance and I just improved someone else's odds but I refuse to believe I am the only one.
 
LivingTheDream said:
I honestly believe this won't be the case. I believe the recent surge in point creep is people getting out. As an example, once I draw the tags I want I am done, so is my dad and I won't be buying any points for my kids...I know, good riddance and I just improved someone else's odds but I refuse to believe I am the only one.
Click to expand...
Good, that will leave more tags to the serious hunters...you won't be missed.

You were "done" before you ever started and never had any intentions of hunting more than once here with or without 90-10.

Nothing wrong with that, just be honest about it.
 
BuzzH said:
Good, that will leave more tags to the serious hunters...you won't be missed.
Click to expand...

It is a bit sad that I figure this would be your response.

There is way too much to hunt and places to hunt to get all caught up in one state, I'm sure you can agree with that.
 
BuzzH said:
Good, that will leave more tags to the serious hunters...you won't be missed.

You were "done" before you ever started and never had any intentions of hunting more than once here with or without 90-10.

Nothing wrong with that, just be honest about it.
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn't see your updates, my plan was to try to make it part of a rotation. I have hunted Wyoming before I truly enjoyed it. One of my best hunting buddies lives in Wyoming. I like the state and debate about retiring there. I did plan on buying my kids points when the time is right.

Obviously, if I was lucky enough to draw a sheep tag, I would be done with sheep just because I dont think it would be right to draw it twice given the limited opportunities.

That is an honest answer. I have more places to hunt now, than time to hunt. I will hunt it one time for those species and have that experience, say thank you for the opportunity and move on. There is no hard feelings on my side, Wyoming needs to do what is best for Wyoming.

Just as a reference this is kind of my strategy for a lot of western states. I did stop applying to New Mexico all together when they made their change but might go hunt Turkeys or birds there someday.
 
LivingTheDream said:
Sorry I didn't see your updates, my plan was to try to make it part of a rotation. I have hunted Wyoming before I truly enjoyed it. One of my best hunting buddies lives in Wyoming. I like the state and debate about retiring there. I did plan on buying my kids points when the time is right.

Obviously, if I was lucky enough to draw a sheep tag, I would be done with sheep just because I dont think it would be right to draw it twice given the limited opportunities.

That is an honest answer. I have more places to hunt now, than time to hunt. I will hunt it one time for those species and have that experience, say thank you for the opportunity and move on. There is no hard feelings on my side, Wyoming needs to do what is best for Wyoming.

Just as a reference this is kind of my strategy for a lot of western states. I did stop applying to New Mexico all together when they made their change but might go hunt Turkeys or birds there someday.
Click to expand...
I did the same with NM, and no hard feelings from me there either. I didn't throw a hissy fit when Residents looked out for themselves, just made a decision to not apply there. I did draw 2 pretty good tags there before the changes.

I don't blame the residents of NM for wanting more of the tags...they live there, they put up with the place, they may as well have the tags too.

Just strange that NR's of Wyoming come absolutely unglued when we expect the same for our residents.

Wyoming made a massive mistake a long time ago being wayyyyy too generous for wayyyyy too long.

Created NR entitlement...should have been 90-10 a long time ago.
 
SS! said:
Buzz please tell me the unit I could of hunted but <type excuse here > ?

WY didn’t promise you a tag and it’s no one’s fault but your own that you can’t afford a guide. If it’s that much of a priority make it happen.

@nfh how is your scouting going for your 90/10 tag? It’s a little foggy in my spot this year. On an unrelated note BuzzH capitalized years ago on hunting this area. It’s a draw now. Get while the getting is good…

View attachment 45346
Click to expand...

Going good. Actually got off the mountain couple hours ago from scouting for a few days. Found a ton of ewes and lambs. Rams are timbered up. 5 rams came out and all but one were shooters. One ram wasnt broomed yet and was super massive. The other 3 were big heavy rams. I couldnt get good pictures with the heat waves. Couldnt locate the rams on day 2 or 3. It was either 8 billion degrees or non-stop rain. Got some good pictures/videos of some wolves that came into camp
 
nfh said:
Going good. Actually got off the mountain couple hours ago from scouting for a few days. Found a ton of ewes and lambs. Rams are timbered up. 5 rams came out and all but one were shooters. One ram wasnt broomed yet and was super massive. The other 3 were big heavy rams. I couldnt get good pictures with the heat waves. Couldnt locate the rams on day 2 or 3. It was either 8 billion degrees or non-stop rain. Got some good pictures/videos of some wolves that came into camp
Click to expand...
Hell yeah! Sounds like you’re getting the full experience!
 
LivingTheDream said:
This is my biggest issue with the whole change. Herd numbers (sheep and moose) used to support twice as many tags. I wish the task force was focusing on increasing populations rather that reorganizing the tags that are left. I am extremely pessimistic about about populations ever getting back to those levels.
Click to expand...

Very good point. Something else I actually agree with you on.
 
I don't have an opposition to 90/10 split for resident/nonresidents but feel it is a scam to change the rules after many nonresidents have invested years as well as hundreds, if not thousands of dollars building points in Wyoming. Our points would be significantly devalued if the percentage of allocation is changed. I know there are some states that give very few tags to nonresidents but there are also other generous to nonresident states like Colorado.

This isn't about increasing resident opportunities to hunt, it is about increasing residents opportunity for premium tags. Many nonresidents such as myself that mostly apply for non premium tags will have their opportunities to hunt Wyoming cut by more than 50% with a 90/10 split.
 
BuzzH said:
I did the same with NM, and no hard feelings from me there either. I didn't throw a hissy fit when Residents looked out for themselves, just made a decision to not apply there. I did draw 2 pretty good tags there before the changes.

I don't blame the residents of NM for wanting more of the tags...they live there, they put up with the place, they may as well have the tags too.

Just strange that NR's of Wyoming come absolutely unglued when we expect the same for our residents.

Wyoming made a massive mistake a long time ago being wayyyyy too generous for wayyyyy too long.

Created NR entitlement...should have been 90-10 a long time ago.
Click to expand...


The biggest problem in NM is the 10% outfitter welfare tags. Wyoming has their own outfitter welfare in the form of the Wilderness law that we all know was created by politicians as a favor to their friends.
 
BrianID said:
This isn't about increasing resident opportunities to hunt, it is about increasing residents opportunity for premium tags.
Click to expand...
71 posts to figure that out?

Nobody said otherwise...and that's pretty obvious since the big 5 are the ones being changed first.
 
BrianID said:
Wyoming has their own outfitter welfare in the form of the Wilderness law that we all know was created by politicians as a favor to their friends.
Click to expand...
Its on the list of issues...see my thread first post. Get your comments in.
 
NR fund 77% of LICENSE REVENUE, which equates to just a smidge over 50% of the total budget.

Nr will still be able to draw 2 buck and 4 doe Antelope and Deer licenses, as well as 3 Elk licenses. Yes, it's getting more difficult but I haven't found a western state where drawing is getting easier regardless of the quotas.
 
SS! said:
Hell yeah! Sounds like you’re getting the full experience!


I told the wolves if they come back tommrrow i shall name one 2 socks!!!! Lol. Every time i see a wolf i think of that damn movie.. was 6 wolves and 2 pups. She came in about 70 yards sniffing us out then booked it out.





20210704_211235.jpg

20210704_211658.jpg
Click to expand...
 
I think we need to start another conversation with point sharing at the TF meeting too. People like jims have taken advantage of others and jumped to the front of the line, when others have been buying points/apply only to have guys like jims draw tags that they haven't earned. How about it jims?
 
Last edited:
I was just sent a message from a nonres buddy that has 23 nonres sheep points. I am so bummed for him and other nonres that have devoted so many years to applying for tags and paying high pref pt fees!

I sure wish there were several nonres with close to max sheep and moose pts that showed up at the next Task Force meeting. It may be worth an airline ticket? It would be a reality check.....face to face with the task force for those nonres that have waiting more than 1/4 of their lives for a tag and will likely have that opportunity taken from them if 90/10 passes!

What a bummer!
 
jims said:
I was just sent a message from a nonres buddy that has 23 nonres sheep points. I am so bummed for him and other nonres that have devoted so many years to applying for tags and paying high pref pt fees!

I sure wish there were several nonres with close to max sheep and moose pts that showed up at the next Task Force meeting. It may be worth an airline ticket? It would be a reality check.....face to face with the task force for those nonres that have waiting more than 1/4 of their lives for a tag and will likely have that opportunity taken from them if 90/10 passes!

What a bummer!
Click to expand...
Why be so bummed? He should share his points with you. Must not be a very good friend.
 
jims said:
I was just sent a message from a nonres buddy that has 23 nonres sheep points. I am so bummed for him and other nonres that have devoted so many years to applying for tags and paying high pref pt fees!
Click to expand...
He could have already had a tag in a good area, sounds like it's his own fault.
 
jm77 said:
He could have already had a tag in a good area, sounds like it's his own fault.
Click to expand...
Exactly, one of my best friends, that has drawn sheep tags in Montana and the Idaho Governors sheep tag as well as killing 7-8 rams in Alaska, is in the same boat, I think he has 23 or maybe 24 points.

He's known about the possibility of the changes and is luckily in a position to make sure he absolutely hunts sheep in Wyoming...90-10 or not.

May not be his top pick of areas, but he'll kill a ram in Wyoming.
 
grosventrehunter said:
I think we need to start another conversation with point sharing at the TF meeting too. People like jims have taken advantage of others and jumped to the front of the line, when others have been buying points/apply only to have guys like jims draw tags that they haven't earned. How about it jims?
Click to expand...
Sebastian doesn't want to talk about that...
 
SS! said:
Its not the purpose of this TF to address those issues. But I get what you're saying. I do believe a lot of money and time has been spent researching these declines. If you want me to I can email you the papers I've read etc. Lots of interesting data out there.

When numbers get low there's always a reaction. Up here in AK people started complaining about the sheep hunting after a massive winterkill. Working groups were made with different user groups and the data was complied. I sat in on one working group where I knew almost everyone else. Many of us have hunted together and were friends. Rarely did we all agree on a talking point or the answer to a question. One thing that almost everyone agreed on was hunting rams 8 years or older wasn't the reason for the population decline. So what came of this working group/task force? Non resident's were limited to 1 ram every 4 years. Did that do anything to help the resource? Nope. Our numbers are still going down, the real problem is one that probably can't be fixed. You can't control mother nature and stop people from reproducing.....

90/10 is fair for WY residents and NR. If any of you think this is going to kill your chance of getting a moose I'll help you plan a DIY moose hunt in AK. Give up your WY moose points. Hell the tag is 1980 vs 800 for AK. That 1,180 difference will pay for your flight and then some to AK. But you must let your points lapse. Serious offer. Send me a PM. If you have less than 20 points you were never serious about moose hunting in the first place ;)

Have a great week all,
Click to expand...
PM sent
 
We all just want to hunt. Nonresidents want it to stay 80/20 including me. Let's be honest though. If I was a resident I would want 90/10 and so would JIMS. I would gladly have UTAH go to 80/20 if Wyoming would stay and Nevada would go to 80/20. That is most likely wishful thinking. Thanks for all the fun memories Wyoming! I hope you stay 80/20, but if you don't, I get it.
 
Today by 5 is the last chance to submit comments for the next meeting. Nonres Be sure to submit your comments!
 
BuzzH said:
Exactly, one of my best friends, that has drawn sheep tags in Montana and the Idaho Governors sheep tag as well as killing 7-8 rams in Alaska, is in the same boat, I think he has 23 or maybe 24 points.

He's known about the possibility of the changes and is luckily in a position to make sure he absolutely hunts sheep in Wyoming...90-10 or not.

May not be his top pick of areas, but he'll kill a ram in Wyoming.
Click to expand...
I call BS....
 
jims said:
I was just sent a message from a nonres buddy that has 23 nonres sheep points. I am so bummed for him and other nonres that have devoted so many years to applying for tags and paying high pref pt fees!

I sure wish there were several nonres with close to max sheep and moose pts that showed up at the next Task Force meeting. It may be worth an airline ticket? It would be a reality check.....face to face with the task force for those nonres that have waiting more than 1/4 of their lives for a tag and will likely have that opportunity taken from them if 90/10 passes!

What a bummer!
Click to expand...
His own fault he is not hunting sheep. And again thanks for posting the link as I will send another comment on PP sharing.
 
treedagain said:
All of it.
Click to expand...
Yeah...sure.

Here's my buddies BS MT Ram he drew as NR.

What a great hunt being able to watch my buddy shoot that ram, 10.5 years old, over 40 on the long horn in just an awesome area.

tomsram3.jpg


Me holding my buddies ram...

tomsram2.jpg


More BS here, my buddies ID Hells Canyon Ram from the raffle tag he drew...neat story with this ram too, JM77 knows the story. Mid-180's type ram. Just a great ram. They used this photo in the Idaho hunting regulations the next year:

tomsram2_1.jpg


I won't bother with posting anymore BS...well, I take that back, I'll post the BS ram he's going to kill in WY next fall.
 
Treedagain I can photoshop some growth rings on that baby you shot. Get rid of the milk on its lips and put a smile on your face. Hit me up with a DM. We will turn that low class III ram into a class IV with 21 clicks of the mouse.
 
Here's something for Wyo residents to consider before the Task Force meeting. It may even be something you may want to submit?

The first table is number of Wyo res tags issued and applicants followed by the number of applicants after 1, 2, 3, and up to 5 years of waiting (after an applicant draws a tag). This would reflect 1 to 5 year waiting periods after drawing tags.

The 2nd table shows draw % in each category. The 2 shaded columns on the right side of the 2nd table are 2021 Wyo res draw odds and Wyo draw odds taken from 2021 stats with 90/10 additional nonres tags are added to res tags.

Obviously the toughest draw units will be difficult to draw with any system. However, with waiting periods there is a guarantee of drawing some very good elk tags with a waiting period. With 90/10 these same unit draw odds will barely increase draw odds and are way worse than what would be available with a waiting period!

If Wyo res want to draw limited tags on a more regular basis a waiting period would be a lot better option than 90/10! Take a look at how quickly draw odds improve compared to only a few nonres tags being handed over to residents with 90/10!

If Wyo res want to draw limited tags on a more regular basis here you go! Those that draw tags obviously have to wait a few years before they can apply again but those that don't draw will have MUCH better draw odds without impacting so many nonres with 90/10!

Here are the 2 tables
IMG_5193.jpg
IMG_5194.jpg
 
I don't want waiting periods...

We're looking for MORE opportunity, not less.

What would be awesome though is once in a lifetime for NR's for the hard to draw deer, elk and pronghorn tags.

I could get behind that.
 
SS! said:
Treedagain I can photoshop some growth rings on that baby you shot. Get rid of the milk on its lips and put a smile on your face. Hit me up with a DM. We will turn that low class III ram into a class IV with 21 clicks of the mouse.
Click to expand...
Don't use the slimming tool on the ram...it will be a ewe...
 
It sounds like Wyo res are flustered about not being able to draw tags? Waiting periods would allow that! I know several Wyo res that mentioned that their neighbor drew several limited tags while they drew 0! A waiting period would allow those that haven't drawn to draw tags. 90/10 will barely improve draw odds for residents!

If I was a Wyo resident it would be a no brainer for me! Apply for 10 years with 10% draw odds with 90/10.....or pretty much be guaranteed drawing quality tags with a waiting period! They could set it up so residents could still hunt general elk and deer units the years they are waiting!

A lot of Wyo res have the false idea that all of a sudden with 90/10 they will have improved draw odds for units like 100 elk and 128 deer.....which is totally false!

Here you go Wyo residents! Waiting periods will dramatically improve your odds of drawing limited tags! 90/10 will not!
 

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