Politics and agenda pushers at their finest!

ridgetops

ridgetops

Very Active Member
Messages
2,878
So I started asking around about all this "apple baiting" that's going on in Southern Utah.
What I can tell, there are some big time shed antler collectors and photographers that are spreading the word about how all the top end bucks are being killed on the Pauns, Zion and Pine Valley units. They are pushing to get this "baiting" issue banned.
Just like in that other "baiting" thread, it's not about the "apples" but a push to get any and all attractants banned and this glaring "apple" issue is just the ammo to use to push their agenda though.
This whole thing reminds me of how the anti gun fanatics use evey mass school shooting as ammo for more gun control and to save the children.
Now we have these anti baiters using "apple piles" as ammo for total attractant banning, to save the deer. Then they will move onto trail cameras and then radio use and then modern rifles and scopes and so on.
I know without a doubt I can kill deer even if all these thing were banned but it really bugs me how these agenda pushers try to spin these issues with a lot of hyperbole to gain more support.
 
Let’s just solve this all right now and make any kind of pre season scouting illegal. From June 1 to August 15, NO SCOUTING of any kind. Once the hunt starts, no type of attractant. No trail cams, no spotting scopes, no binos, no apples, no salt, no cover scent, can’t be within 250 yards in a straight line of a naturally occurring water source, no off trail hiking (it has to be a designated trail on a map if you do any kind of hiking), no nothing. Hell let’s make it that you can’t even leave the pavement with the intent to locate animals until it’s hunting season. Oh, and you can’t hang a treestand until legal shooting hours opening morning of your hunt. I’m getting so tired of people saying “that’s not fair!” ? so if these guys wanna single out a certain group(s) who are using a hunting method that is LEGAL, then we need to make it “fair” for everyone and just can scouting and baiting all together.
 
deerkiller said:
Let’s just solve this all right now and make any kind of pre season scouting illegal. From June 1 to August 15, NO SCOUTING of any kind. Once the hunt starts, no type of attractant. No trail cams, no spotting scopes, no binos, no apples, no salt, no cover scent, can’t be within 250 yards in a straight line of a naturally occurring water source, no off trail hiking (it has to be a designated trail on a map if you do any kind of hiking), no nothing. Hell let’s make it that you can’t even leave the pavement with the intent to locate animals until it’s hunting season. Oh, and you can’t hang a treestand until legal shooting hours opening morning of your hunt. I’m getting so tired of people saying “that’s not fair!” ? so if these guys wanna single out a certain group(s) who are using a hunting method that is LEGAL, then we need to make it “fair” for everyone and just can scouting and baiting all together.
Click to expand...
Now that's a hunt ole elkass could support!
 
deerkiller said:
Let’s just solve this all right now and make any kind of pre season scouting illegal. From June 1 to August 15, NO SCOUTING of any kind. Once the hunt starts, no type of attractant. No trail cams, no spotting scopes, no binos, no apples, no salt, no cover scent, can’t be within 250 yards in a straight line of a naturally occurring water source, no off trail hiking (it has to be a designated trail on a map if you do any kind of hiking), no nothing. Hell let’s make it that you can’t even leave the pavement with the intent to locate animals until it’s hunting season. Oh, and you can’t hang a treestand until legal shooting hours opening morning of your hunt. I’m getting so tired of people saying “that’s not fair!” ? so if these guys wanna single out a certain group(s) who are using a hunting method that is LEGAL, then we need to make it “fair” for everyone and just can scouting and baiting all together.
Click to expand...
Now that's a hunt ole elkass could support!
middlefork said:
So how do deer feel about hunting in general?
Click to expand...
I think they like all the attention they're getting.
 
ridgetops said:
Now that's a hunt ole elkass could support!
I think they like all the attention they're getting.
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Can you please point me in the direction of some deer that enjoy human attention? All ones I know of are stuck up snobs that turn and run when they discovered I had intentions of including one in my latest photo shoots for social media
 
I have a hard time understanding why we're so giddy to put more and more regulations on ourselves. I get it, sometimes they are necessary. However, at other times they go way too far. I work in one of the most regulated professions and it continues to get worse. My day to day focus has shifted from job outcome based to trying to keep up with new regs. We had a recent inspection. We did very well; however, some things they knit picked on left me scratching my head.

It's a slippery slope as stated. Today it's this, tomorrow it will be something else. If I've learned anything it's that we like to complain. It's always someone else's fault, no self accountability. It's sad to see the direction hunting is going. Really, it's society as a whole. I expect we as hunters to be better than this.
 
ridgetops said:
but it really bugs me how these agenda pushers try to spin these issues with a lot of hyperbole to gain more support.
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EXHIBIT A:
deerkiller said:
Let’s just solve this all right now and make any kind of pre season scouting illegal. From June 1 to August 15, NO SCOUTING of any kind. Once the hunt starts, no type of attractant. No trail cams, no spotting scopes, no binos, no apples, no salt, no cover scent, can’t be within 250 yards in a straight line of a naturally occurring water source, no off trail hiking (it has to be a designated trail on a map if you do any kind of hiking), no nothing.
Click to expand...
 
Baiting mule deer and elk is lame - especially big piles of apples. There are some tactics that should not be allowed. Baiting is similar to spotlighting - I’m okay with using it to kill coyotes, jack rabbits and skunks but not elk and mule deer. If you want to bait big game then move to Texas.

Ban it!!!!
 
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If you like hunting like a free American move to Texas ?

If you see a picture of a guy with a dead buck and it makes you want to ban things, visit a psychiatrist and don't move to Texas. ?
 
Hawkeye said:
Baiting mule deer and elk is lame - especially big piles of apples. There are some tactics that should not be allowed. Baiting is similar to spotlighting - I’m okay with using it to kill coyotes, jack rabbits and skunks but not elk and mule deer. If you want to bait big game then move to Texas.

Ban it!!!!
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So baiting is compared to spotlighting. I am trying to understand why baiting is so distasteful. So Hawkeye what is it exactly why you think baiting is so terrible. Please explain too me what is wrong with baiting and do not just tell me it is unethical or you do not like big business taking advantage of the system. I would like to here specifics give me the meat and potatoes of what's wrong with baiting.
 
!
Hawkeye said:
Baiting mule deer and elk is lame - especially big piles of apples. There are some tactics that should not be allowed. Baiting is similar to spotlighting - I’m okay with using it to kill coyotes, jack rabbits and skunks but not elk and mule deer. If you want to bait big game then move to Texas.

Ban it!!!!
Click to expand...
That's the exact knee jerk response I'm talking about. I don't like the thought of huge piles of apples or whatever being dumped in areas I hope to hunt and then having those people claim the area as theirs but I surely don't want all or any type of attractants become banned because of these few excessive baiters.
 
Some of you seem offended that I would equate baiting with spotlighting. Why? Don't both tactics give an unfair advantage to the hunter? In this day and age of increased technology and pressure on the animals, especially mature bucks and bulls, we as hunters need to be responsible and self-regulate on issues such as baiting.

In reality, baiting is worse than spotlighting in many ways. Both tactics provide an unfair advantage to the hunter over the game. With baiting, however, there are additional risks and problems, including the following: (1) it congregates animals in an unnatural way, (2) it increases the risk of disease, including CWD, (3) it disrupts normal travel patterns, (4) it can move animals from public land to private land, (5) it allows people to litter and make a mess on public lands, and (6) it can lead to increased hunter conflict. These are just a few problems associated with baiting. I could go on and on.

I know that baiting is common in the Midwest and back East. However, most western states have already banned the baiting of big game. Why hasn't Utah followed suit? Is it because we are smarter than all other western states on this issue similar to Utah's brilliant management approach on rifle elk hunts during the rut and selling hundreds of premium hunting tags each year? No. The reality is that a few of Utah's well known and high priced guides and CWMU's have long used baiting to kill some of their best animals. I believe this is yet another example of where the Utah DWR and Wildlife Board have catered to a few loud and influential voices. So with all due respect to ridgetop, this is not a situation where a few "politckers and agenda pushers" are looking to limit otherwise ethical hunting behavior. Rather, it is a situation where Utah is finally looking to close a loophole that has long been used by some of our most influential guides and outfitters. It will be interesting to see how a certain Wildlife Board Member that operates one of the premier CWMU's in Southern Utah will react to this issue when the Board takes it up.

In some ways, I understand why tristate and his buddies bait in Texas where they are hunting on small tracts of private land and competing with their neighbors to attract and hold the deer on "their property." They need a corn flinger to attract the animals like a magnet. But Utah is not Texas. Out West, however, there are extremely large tracts of public land and there is absolutely no reason why sportsmen cannot ethically pursue and take big game animals without bait. Isn't that the heart of what we call "fair chase?" As long as baiting is legal, feel free to bait big game if you so choose. For me personally, however, I hope Utah bans baiting and I hope it happens sooner rather than later.

I know many of you disagree with my views and that is okay. Good luck with your applications this Spring and upcoming hunts this Fall.

Jason
 
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I've never been on the pauns. Or Zion. Or pine valley. In fact I've never put in for an LE deer tag. Ever.

The baiters made it an issue. Wasn't enough to carry a shopping bag if apples out. Now it's a semi load. Wasn't enough to drop a salt lick, now it's 20lb bags worth all over.

Same with cams. Guy has few cams, no one cares. Outfitters now run 100's.

LR same thing.

We wouldn't need regs if we could control ourselves. But we don't.

It won't stop with apples. Once everyone does apples, the pros will push the envelope again, then be matched,then pushed again.

It's not just "a few LE " problem. It's starting to be everywhere
 
This really isnt about the politics of baiting, but I will share it to show one if my conserns. A few years ago my boys talked me into turkey hunting. There are large numbers of birds near our home. So i said ok. We hunted the area we had seen many turkeys just a couple weeks before and were skunked. Driving out my oldest said holy crap look at that. There were 81 turkeys feeding at 4 feeders, 200yds behind the NO TRESSPASSING sign. It looked like all the birds in the area, were now off limits. We didnt hunt to see if any birds were traveling out if the private or not, there were no reasion for them to leave. That I could see. They had food, a small stream, and numerous cottonwoods for roosting. How many apple piles draw Deer and Elk from public land onto private. This is my only consern. If you have the money and time to draw public ground animals on to private for high dollar hunters, thats the infair advantage. I barley afford my hunting and fishing costs as is. And uf your answere to this is I should make more money and invest more to hunting, then your entiteled a$$ is a big part of the problem. STFU.
 
hossblur said:
I've never been on the pauns. Or Zion. Or pine valley. In fact I've never put in for an LE deer tag. Ever.

The baiters made it an issue. Wasn't enough to carry a shopping bag if apples out. Now it's a semi load. Wasn't enough to drop a salt lick, now it's 20lb bags worth all over.

Same with cams. Guy has few cams, no one cares. Outfitters now run 100's.

LR same thing.

We wouldn't need regs if we could control ourselves. But we don't.

It won't stop with apples. Once everyone does apples, the pros will push the envelope again, then be matched,then pushed again.

It's not just "a few LE " problem. It's starting to be everywhere
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It's definitely going to be a problem now that you guys have told the world how awesome it works but maybe that's been your goal all along.
 
I'm with some on here and think regulations suck! Why do we need seasons, quotas and legal shooting hours? What about licenses, bag limits and restrictions on weapons? It should be legal to use a rifle in archery season! How about hunting from motorized vehicles and spotlighting? Hunting has just gone to heck!!

Wah, wah, boo hoo....
 
Hawkeye said:
Some of you seem offended that I would equate baiting with spotlighting. Why? Don't both tactics give an unfair advantage to the hunter? In this day and age of increased technology and pressure on the animals, especially mature bucks and bulls, we as hunters need to be responsible and self-regulate on issues such as baiting.

In reality, baiting is worse than spotlighting in many ways. Both tactics provide an unfair advantage to the hunter over the game. With baiting, however, there are additional risks and problems, including the following: (1) it congregates animals in an unnatural way, (2) it increases the risk of disease, including CWD, (3) it disrupts normal travel patterns, (4) it allows people to litter and make a mess on public lands, and (5) it can lead to increased hunter conflict.

I know that baiting is common in the Midwest and back East. However, most western states have already banned the baiting of big game. Why hasn't Utah followed suit? Is it because we are smarter than all other western states on this issue similar to Utah's brilliant management approach on rifle elk hunts during the rut and selling hundreds of premium hunting tags each year? No. The reality is that a few of Utah's well known and high priced guides and CWMU's have long used baiting to kill some of their best animals. I believe this is yet another example of where the Utah DWR and Wildlife Board have catered to a few loud and influential voices. So with all due respect to ridgetop, this is not a situation where a few "politckers and agenda pushers" are looking to limit otherwise ethical hunting behavior. Rather, it is a situation where Utah is finally looking to close a loophole that has long been used by some of our most influential guides and outfitters. It will be interesting to see how a certain Wildlife Board Member that operates one of the premier CWMU's in Southern Utah will react to this issue when the Board takes it up.

In some ways, I understand why tristate and his buddies bait in Texas where they are hunting on small tracts of private land and competing with their neighbors to attract and hold the deer on "their property." They need a corn flinger to attract the animals like a magnet. But Utah is not Texas. Out West, however, there are extremely large tracts of public land and there is absolutely no reason why sportsmen cannot ethically pursue and take big game animals without bait. As long as baiting is legal, feel free to bait big game if you so choose. For me personally, however, I hope Utah bans baiting and I hope it happens sooner rather than later.

I know many of you disagree with my views and that is okay. Good luck with your applications this Spring and upcoming hunts this Fall.

Jason
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It appears you've never baited and are basing your decision on what you think you know about it from the info you get from others.

I've been doing off and on at 3 sites for about 15 years. Two sites are on the Panguitch Lake Unit and one site on the Zion Unit. Two sites are on water (a guzzler and a small stream from a spring) and the other is on a well used game trail that goes from some private land where they get water and bed at night to a thick stand of Mountain Mahogany where they feed and bed during the day.

My baiting consists of scattering about 20 apples that have fallen off my tree (or the neighbors' trees) over a 5 x5 yard area next to the water on the water sites and a 4 or 5 lb manufactured wildlife block of feed from CALRanch on the game trail site. I also use a block of mineralized salt made for wildlife from CALRanch on the guzzler.

I'm a bow hunter exclusively and I alternate my hunting on those sites during the archery season to give them (and me) time to get some rest. Plus, I obviously don't use all 3 sites every year because sometimes I don't have a deer tag for that unit and sometimes I'm after elk, not deer, and since the elk don't respond to bait, I don't need it.

During all that time, here's what I have learned:

1) I see the same number of animals whether I bait or not. Deer are creatures of habit and it takes quite a bit to get them to change. A pile or truckload of freshly placed apples every day may get them to do that, but 20 scattered apples sure doesn't!
2) They come and go the same way and time with or without the bait. And guess what they are doing as they come and go? They are feeding on NATURAL forage!
3) If 20 scattered apples is considered too much litter, then I guess I'm guilty and I'll pick them up every night after I'm done hunting. That is, if there are any left since the birds, chipmunks and foxes also eat them. The guzzler is at the end of a "road" and I had a DWR employee come in last year to check the guzzler and I thought he was a CO. So I left my blind to show him my permit (He didn't even see the blind until I came out). He was on the south side of the guzzler and it wasn't until he came around to the north side and stepped on one, that he noticed the apples (mine aren't yellow like the piles you see on this thread) and asked about them and how they work. I told him what I just told you above. We then talked about the guzzler and how it was functioning and he then apologized for interrupting my hunt, wished me good luck and left.
4) I can't speak for LE Unit hunters, but most Utah General Unit hunters are very courteous and respectful of other hunters. I have NEVER had one drive up to the guzzler and make it an issue. Most of them don't even know I'm there until I wave at them from the blind and then they politely nod the heads or tip their flat brimmed hats and turn around and leave. I've even had several of them offer to help me trail an animal I've shot. Additionally, I have a note with my name and phone number in my blind offering to let them use it when I'm not there. I just want to make sure we don't mess each other up with schedules.
5) As for the disease/CWD issues, there may possibly be some slight risk increases but there are ways of dealing with that as well (single bite size pellets, crab apples, banning of bait in units that have problems). And, so far, there are no cases of CWD anywhere near my hunting sites. Per the CWD map, most of the Utah cases are in areas bordering Wyoming and Colorado where there is no baiting, so we know baiting isn't responsible for their increases. Why would it then be responsible for any in Utah?

Nearly all of the problems you site happen on high profile trophy units, not on general hunt units. That ought to tell you something.
 
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JM77,

I recognize your sarcasm ;) and understand what you are saying. Would you feel the same way if the goal of the dwr is to give you a deer tag with the full expectation that you kill a deer? Besides issues of public safety why would the government care the means by which you achieve the goal if the total expectation is a dead deer?
 
Tristate said:
JM77,

I recognize your sarcasm ;) and understand what you are saying. Would you feel the same way if the goal of the dwr is to give you a deer tag with the full expectation that you kill a deer? Besides issues of public safety why would the government care the means by which you achieve the goal if the total expectation is a dead deer?
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Many regulations are born of tradition or terrain. How would you hunt Texas brush country without baiting? Keep in mind that wildlife managers use success rates in issuing licenses. If success was 100%, less people would get the opportunity to hunt. There has to be a balance beyond which some methods of hunting become unethical or unacceptable in hunters minds. Some hunter's minds anyway...
 
JM77,

That's really been the point I have been making and you are backing it up. The rules have to do with success to failure ratios and opportunity. The problem is that system model of harvest hasn't worked for quite awhile now and the herds are suffering because of it.
 
jm77 said:
I'm with some on here and think regulations suck! Why do we need seasons, quotas and legal shooting hours? What about licenses, bag limits and restrictions on weapons? It should be legal to use a rifle in archery season! How about hunting from motorized vehicles and spotlighting? Hunting has just gone to heck!!

Wah, wah, boo hoo....
Click to expand...

Some guides in Utah already make their own rules and shoot
whatever,
whenever,
wherever,
They please.
 
Hawkeye said:
Some of you seem offended that I would equate baiting with spotlighting. Why? Don't both tactics give an unfair advantage to the hunter? In this day and age of increased technology and pressure on the animals, especially mature bucks and bulls, we as hunters need to be responsible and self-regulate on issues such as baiting.

In reality, baiting is worse than spotlighting in many ways. Both tactics provide an unfair advantage to the hunter over the game. With baiting, however, there are additional risks and problems, including the following: (1) it congregates animals in an unnatural way, (2) it increases the risk of disease, including CWD, (3) it disrupts normal travel patterns, (4) it can move animals from public land to private land, (5) it allows people to litter and make a mess on public lands, and (6) it can lead to increased hunter conflict. These are just a few problems associated with baiting. I could go on and on.

I know that baiting is common in the Midwest and back East. However, most western states have already banned the baiting of big game. Why hasn't Utah followed suit? Is it because we are smarter than all other western states on this issue similar to Utah's brilliant management approach on rifle elk hunts during the rut and selling hundreds of premium hunting tags each year? No. The reality is that a few of Utah's well known and high priced guides and CWMU's have long used baiting to kill some of their best animals. I believe this is yet another example of where the Utah DWR and Wildlife Board have catered to a few loud and influential voices. So with all due respect to ridgetop, this is not a situation where a few "politckers and agenda pushers" are looking to limit otherwise ethical hunting behavior. Rather, it is a situation where Utah is finally looking to close a loophole that has long been used by some of our most influential guides and outfitters. It will be interesting to see how a certain Wildlife Board Member that operates one of the premier CWMU's in Southern Utah will react to this issue when the Board takes it up.

In some ways, I understand why tristate and his buddies bait in Texas where they are hunting on small tracts of private land and competing with their neighbors to attract and hold the deer on "their property." They need a corn flinger to attract the animals like a magnet. But Utah is not Texas. Out West, however, there are extremely large tracts of public land and there is absolutely no reason why sportsmen cannot ethically pursue and take big game animals without bait. Isn't that the heart of what we call "fair chase?" As long as baiting is legal, feel free to bait big game if you so choose. For me personally, however, I hope Utah bans baiting and I hope it happens sooner rather than later.

I know many of you disagree with my views and that is okay. Good luck with your applications this Spring and upcoming hunts this Fall.

Jason
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Baiting is an ethics issue, but spotlighting is a safety issue! You don't know what or who is beyond the spotlight! Please don't mix up or overlap the different reasons for different laws and then generate a discussion just to gather support. for your opinion.
 
One of the nicer deer I’ve watched grow over a summer. Only came by in the daylight around a half dozen times. I think he really enjoyed the meal I fed him

A4984F72-84B6-45BD-BC9C-8AEFB3927F19.jpeg
 
EFA-

1. If baiting does not change the patterns/routines of the animals and does not give you an advantage as a hunter, then why are you using bait?

2. Spotlighting is also an ethics issue.

Feel free to continue baiting as long as it is legal but I personally hope that it will soon be banned.

Hawkeye
 
Hawkeye said:
EFA-

1. If baiting does not change the patterns/routines of the animals and does not give you an advantage as a hunter, then why are you using bait?

2. Spotlighting is also an ethics issue.

Feel free to continue baiting as long as it is legal but I personally hope that it will soon be banned.

Hawkeye
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1. I've explained that many times on these baiting threads. It does indeed give me an advantage. It gives me the advantage of a close, clear, level, standing, broadside shot at a calm animal of my choosing. It gives me the advantage of not having to do a long, tedious, difficult (and for me, a dangerous) tracking and retrieval of a wounded animal. It also gives the animal the advantage of a quicker, humane death. and it also gives me the advantage of viewing the other marvelous wildlife that feeds on the bait or comes to the water. That's why I do it.

2. Whether legal or otherwise, spotlighting is dangerous or hazardous to people, property and livestock. Baiting is not!

The problem with these all or nothing proposals is the no matter which way it goes, those of us in the middle become collateral damage.
 
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Spotlighting has been a huge part of finding big bucks on the puans. for decades now and why hasn't that been shut down? Since it's being compared to baiting as being just as unethical . It will be a real shame to see people like EFA being shut down from the way they have hunted for decades because of a few bad apples.
 
ridgetops said:
It will be a real shame to see people like EFA being shut down from the way they have hunted for decades because of a few bad apples.
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Ain't that the truth! As hunters, we are often our own worst enemies. Not all of us but those who are constantly trying to push the limits of the law and ethics - often in the name of success, ego, notoriety and money. As mentioned in prior posts, we as hunters need to self-regulate before other more severe changes are imposed from the outside. I personlly don't see a big issue with a guy dropping off a trophy rock in the woods but then the next guys wants to use apples to bait. And then instead of using 15-20 apples the next guy is dumping truckloads of apples. Once again, we are often our own worst enemies. Unfortunately, this same discussion could be applied to trail cameras, OHV's and e-bikes, longe range rifles, etc.

Thanks for the discussion.

Hawkeye
 
This all or nothing attitude really bothers me. There needs to be compromise. These outfitters and shed hunters would love to see all these restrictions go into effect. Hopefully, get the public hunter success rate down around 10 percent. How awesome would that be?
 
Im sure many of you can relate, but do you remember way back, playing under those Friday Night Lights for the last time? Sure, a few of the elite were able to move on to the next level. Some even to the highest level. Most of us put the pads on for the last time that night. Its the road we are going down boys. The resource we love oh so much is diminishing more and more each year. The elite ($$) will still get to play the game, but if we keep in the direction we are moving, a lot of us and the the future generations after us are going to be putting on the pads for the last time pretty soon. If only the game we chase could have made the technological advancements and strategic advancements that we have made. Maybe then would they have a fighting chance. Remember when that big buck would run out far enough to feel safe and give you that final look back, as if to let you know he got away. Not any more. All he is doing now is giving someone time to adjust their turrets.
 
Great! We've actually got a "discussion" going, not a shouting match. There are indeed ways of solving these issues ethically, biologically, legally, financially and logistically (not necessarily in that order)! BUT, we have to stick to the truth, listen to each other and come up with ideas that will help others as well as ourselves. It may too late for baiting (and me?), but to continue with this shouting match on the internet only on other issues is foolish and divisive and will result in all of us losing. Come to some consensus on the internet then get your butts to the RAC and Board Meetings and speak up. You don't have to all agree with everything nor do you have to organize another SFW to make your voice heard. JUST SHOW UP and SPEAK UP! And INSIST ON ENFORCEMENT!
 
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ridgetops said:
This all or nothing attitude really bothers me. There needs to be compromise. These outfitters and shed hunters would love to see all these restrictions go into effect. Hopefully, get the public hunter success rate down around 10 percent. How awesome would that be?
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Ridge-

What type of compromise do you have in mind that will adequately address the problem and still allow average joes like you and EFA to do your thing? I personally don't think the outfitters and guides are pushing these restrictions as they (and their clients) are often the ones who are pushing the lines on baiting, trail cams, etc. I'll admit that I have dropped a trophy rock near one of my trail cams in the past but I am getting to the point where I would support banning all baiting and trail cams just to end some of the nonsense that is occurring.

Let's talk compromise boys and see what we can come up with.

Hawkeye
 
Hawkeye said:
Ridge-

What type of compromise do you have in mind that will adequately address the problem and still allow average joes like you and EFA to do your thing? I personally don't think the outfitters and guides are pushing these restrictions as they (and their clients) are often the ones who are pushing the lines on baiting, trail cams, etc. I'll admit that I have dropped a trophy rock near one of my trail cams in the past but I am getting to the point where I would support banning all baiting and trail cams just to end some of the nonsense that is occurring.

Let's talk compromise boys and see what we can come up with.

Hawkeye
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Hawk...
What is this problem that you want addressed and is it a real problem or just something you don't like so it should be abolished?

I don't bait and never will but I also see the restrictions coming that truly will change our way of life and it's all because of social media and our in-fighting. Mark my words!

This will affect you longer than me since I've had a pretty good run. Too bad that actions by some sportsmen will eventually lead to restrictions that will negatively impact my grand kids.

We are all so quick to describe something as a problem when it's only because we don't do it and don't like it.

Zeke
 
Hawkeye said:
Ridge-

What type of compromise do you have in mind that will adequately address the problem and still allow average joes like you and EFA to do your thing? I personally don't think the outfitters and guides are pushing these restrictions as they (and their clients) are often the ones who are pushing the lines on baiting, trail cams, etc. I'll admit that I have dropped a trophy rock near one of my trail cams in the past but I am getting to the point where I would support banning all baiting and trail cams just to end some of the nonsense that is occurring.

Let's talk compromise boys and see what we can come up with.

Hawkeye
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1) Limit the number of bait sites per hunter (2 or 3?).
2) Regulate (per LE or General unit, per well used natural habitat, per deer and/or cougar population) and register the sites per GPS with registration fees to cover the costs of registration and enforcement.
3) Limit the amount of bait used (per volume or weight) and the distribution method (no mechanical feeders, piles, buckets or bags) so you don't feed them and there isn't a leftover mess.
4) Regulate the yearly time of use per weapon used (Archery season only).
5) Regulate the daily time of use (Daylight hours only to reduce the chance of predation.)
6) Regulate the type of bait used. (salt, mineralized salt, apples, manufactured wildlife feed blocks or pellets, acorns, pine cones/nuts etc. but definitely no corn. You'd be surprised what they would eat and what might actually be good for them to speed up digestion.)
7) Regulate the size of the bait. (Single bite only to reduce disease transmission, ie: feed pellets, crab apples, berries, etc.)
8) An online school, test and certificate like Extended Archery, cow bison and nanny goat hunts.
9) Open inspections by CO's.

I'm sure there are other ways which I haven't thought of or can't remember, but this would be good for a start to the discussion.

I'm still learning, but I've thought about this for 15 years and I've covered an awful lot of ground with this issue. I've thought about the color of the bait to keep it unsightly and hidden from other hunters, the best placement to keep the water from getting contaminated, the best placement to spread out the deer and to keep them from seeing me draw while offering me the shot I want. I've figured out how and where to set up my blind so that deer and elk (and hunters) don't notice it that much, if at all. I've had deer and elk walk by it at 3 feet and never even knew it was there.

I've told you some things about how I manage my sites, but I haven't told you everything I've considered when baiting. Elevation, terrain, type of foliage, ground color and type, parking and camping spots close to site, position of the sun throughout the day, insects, noisy squirrels, my entry ways, phone and internet access, etc., etc. Much of just makes the time spent more fun and comfortable, but some of it can make all the difference in the world at the moment of truth. I've missed more than one slam dunk when I missed something I should have caught beforehand. Bowhunting is like that! Twigs, leaves, branches, numb fingers, glasses, loose arrows, sleepy eyes, and buck fever even when it not buck, have a way of making bowhunting more "fun" and that's why I love it so much! And will miss it if push comes to shove.
 
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Zeke-

I outlined my concerns with baiting in post #22 above. I also admitted that I’ve used a trophy rock and a trail cam from time to time went scouting for deer and elk. That being said, I would support a complete ban on baiting in order to eliminate some of the problems that we are seeing around the state. I would also support some rules/regulations on the use of trail cam for scouting and hunting. I have a feeling that changes are coming and it’s just a matter of time!

Hawkeye
 
Hawkeye said:
Zeke-

I outlined my concerns with baiting in post #22 above...…. That being said, I would support a complete ban on baiting in order to eliminate some of the problems that we are seeing around the state.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...

Good luck doing that!

You're not attacking the problems, you're only attacking the symptoms and the problems will just rise up with other symptoms you have to attack.

When you change the rules of the game, you change the way people play it, but you don't change their reasons for playing it. Trophy hunters will be trophy hunters no matter what regulations you impose on them.
 
EFA, those rules are an administrative and enforcement nightmare. After seeing your proposed rules, I prefer a complete ban on baiting. I bowhunt too and there is no reason we can’t keep hunting without bait. It looks like we will just have to disagree on this one.

Hawkeye
 
deerkiller said:
“4) I can't speak for LE Unit hunters, but most Utah General Unit hunters are very courteous and respectful of other hunters.”

View attachment 3204
Click to expand...

I guess I don't pose a challenge to them and thus, they treat me well. I guess this discussion is over and you can get back to your shouting match. But if that gets too boring you can always to the Mule Deer sub-forum which contains the following threads: (In order at the time of this post.)
1) Mule Deer Scouting Pic Contest
2) Which big buck to hunt? Pick only one.
3) Was your biggest buck off a limited entry unit, private land or general season public land.
4) Colorado Unit 43 (asking for help, not a trophy, ONLY 150")
5) Once in a lifetime last day hunt.
6) Poacher Busted! Anyone here ever caught a poacher. (Busted for poaching a "trophy"deer.)
7) 10 seconds to decide....taker or not??
8) POLL: What makes you trigger happy?
- Mass
- Width
- Height
- Dee[ forks
- Extras
- Other
"Obviously we're all after a buck with all of the above, but which one do you prefer the most"
9) Big Outdoors Expo deer tags
"no vernon tags, just a San Juan elk tag guided by MossBack and a desert bighorn tag for a ranch in Mexico packaged with a deer hunt from the same area I'm guessing"

Sounds pretty trophyish to me. I know many trophy hunters and I find that most of them are VERY competitive when it comes to hunting. Not only with the animals, but with each other as well and most of them can't figure our why I don't apply for all of the great LE tags down here (except antelope because that's all they have.) When we talk about the hunts, one the first things that comes out of their mouth is "Did you get a big one?" They and you are more than welcome to be in that world, but I don't want to go there and that's where all this crap is headed. Option #2 was just the beginning but it won't be the end.

Have a safe hunt!
 
Hate to break it you guys, but this ship done sailed.

There will be concrete action taken on one side or the other.

When you see who is on what side, it's going to shock a bunch of you.

Personally I was impressed.

I'll just echo Hawkeye, who echoed me, who echoed Slam.

If baiting doesn't work then why do it.

EFA tip toes around it, so he gets partial credit.


If the animals behave no differently, you should publish a study, because millions are spent yearly on deer bait in this country. There must be a lot of stupid guys out dropping time and coin for nothing.
 
Hawkeye said:
EFA, those rules are an administrative and enforcement nightmare. After seeing your proposed rules, I prefer a complete ban on baiting. I bowhunt too and there is no reason we can’t keep hunting without bait. It looks like we will just have to disagree on this one.

Hawkeye
Click to expand...

First off, most of those things we are already doing with bear baiting, cougar hunting, coyote hunting, trapping of 13 species and, to some extent, fishing and we seem to be able to manage those. Besides, even if you ban baiting, we'll have some other onerous problems with enforcing scopes, long distance hunting, antler restrictions, cameras etc. that the folks have on their list of "problems". If we can't enforce rules for a couple of hundred bait sites that have GPS coordinates then what makes you (or them) think we can enforce the banning of thousands of cameras that could be everywhere and anywhere. And even if we could, that means that hunters have to physically scout which puts more of them on the mountain during other hunting seasons. Whoopee!!

Second, maybe you have no reasons to quit, but I certainly do per my age, heart condition, medications, balance issues, sleeping issues, income and expenses, church obligations, family household obligations with my daughter and two little premie kids and a son-in-law with MS plus the heartaches and grieving challenges I'm still dealing with from my dear wife's passing two years ago after losing her battle with breast cancer and diabetes. Yeh, I have issues with dealing with sharp arrows and knives, falling, dragging a 150 lb animal a long way back to the old Rodeo or being in a canyon in the dark with no phone reception 'cause I couldn't make the clear close ,unobstructed, level, standing, broadside shot that baiting affords me. I know that I may never get that shot, but with bait I at least have a chance and can decide. Without it, I'm not even going! Of course, that would eliminate one of your competitors for tags. But, on a bright note, since I still like and admire you and to show you there are no hard feelings, if you are still hunting, I'll even give you the GPS coordinates of the guzzler and the spring which are actually great spots, even without the bait. The spring is where I shot my Pope and Young elk that's hanging in Ace Hardware in Cedar and I did it without bait. Imagine that! However, I'll need a report and some pics of your hunts there. (and maybe a steak or two?) It would be almost like I was responsible for your success and I'd be happy to take credit for it!

Sorry for the rant, but we all need to remember that there are lots of people who hunt differently than we do for whatever reasons they choose and they don't want to be locked into your chosen way of hunting any more than you want to be locked into theirs. Plus, the ironic thing about all of this is that we are talking about killing BUCKS, and no matter what their antlers look like, they contribute very little to the size of the herds which is what we are saying we are ultimately after.

This old man is getting tired. I'll see you in the morning (or not).
 
As long as the board looks at all the angles and pros vs. cons. I'll be ok with whatever decision comes forth concerning attractants or baiting with food sources.
 
All this arguing is because there are more hunters than Deer. That's the problem. I had no idea that baiting was going on in Utah. I think BAITING is a dirty trick and certainly not fair chase. It's hard for me to believe that our ETHICS differ so much, you would think as HUNTERS we would all be on the same page. Ridgetops there is such a thing as taking more than your share now days.
 
I once hunted in Canada in Saskatchewan for Whitetails and was hunting out of a blind. The woods around the blind were so thick you would have some trouble getting a bullet through them to shoot a deer. They clean out some shooting lanes and put up blinds and bait them.

I had never hunted over bait until that day and I realized that if they didn't bait you would never get a shot.

I do understand why they bait there but have never understood why it is done back home. After all we have big wide open spaces to shoot from, isn't that why we tell the guys back east to practice out to 350 yards when they come here, when their shots back home are usually closer.

I saw one family in Fish Lake region bait with water softening pellets. The deer would just stand there and look at you, they would not run when I approached them. I don't call that hunting I call that un-sportsman like conduct.
After all isn't the hunting supposed to be an intimate experience with the animal you hunt.

Just my two cents worth but I hope they ban it forever............
 
How come you all are spending all this time and energy fighting over baiting when you could be curing the coronavirus by fighting over the toilet paper at Walmart!
 
Washington was having truckloads of apples dumped also. It started changing the migration pattern of the deer. I believe the regulation now is up to 5 gallons of bait.
 
"if you don't police yourselves, someone will do it for you"

And that someone is slamdunk and grizzly. They know exactly what's best for all of us.
 
I will summarize my feelings to various posts above as I've skimmed through by saying this:

I have seen many threads on this, and multiple people, including EFA, talk about how baiting doesn't really work. Then he says he's done it consistently for 15 years. Why do it if it doesn't work? I usually agree with almost everything EFA posts, and think he's a level-headed guy that thinks the issues through. I respect his opinion and give him a lot of deference and credibility. I just can't buy this one. He, and anyone else, has the right to advocate for this practice all he wants. I just see it the other way. It's definitely not personal.

I agree that the proposed "compromise" to a ban on baiting would be an enforcement nightmare. We can't even enforce weapon type usage and legal shooting hours for the most part, and now we're going to enforce GPS bait sites with a cap on the total number of apples that can be placed at each? I don't see it. I agree with hawkeye, it's time to just make a policy decision, and I hope the one they come up with is to say baiting is banned.

Of course, there will be details to work out on this one. What is considered baiting? What about minerals and salt licks? What about trail cameras as part of this?

As has been said above, a random hunter running a couple cameras: no big deal. People running dozens (or hundreds) to the point you can't walk anywhere in the forest without showing up on someone's camera? That becomes a different issue. A guy putting out a handful of apples near a blind/tree stand? Meh. People dumping loads of apples and now running other hunters off public land because that is "their bait pile?" Yep, going to be an issue. Not everyone that uses lots of apples or tons of trail cameras are doing bad things to other hunters, but there are certainly some that are.

Irresponsible and inconsiderate actions bring regulation. That is a fact of life, and it doesn't matter what topic we are discussing.
 
I will tell it like it is. Baiting works on some deer. Baiting doesn't work on some deer. Some baits work on some deer at certain times of the year and do not work at other times of the year. Sometimes you can switch baits at different times of the year and keep a deer feeding. Sometimes you can't.

This is the truth.

"Irresponsible and inconsiderate actions bring regulation. That is a fact of life, and it doesn't matter what topic we are discussing."


We are talking about neither here.
 
Here is a novel idea.

How about calm the warden. Tell him it was shot over bait, that you didn't realize baiting was illegal, and that you need to know how to proceed so as to not further any crimes.

Of course that would be AFTER you don't break the law to start with.

Then you make a video, speaking with the warden about how it's the hunters responsibility to know the law. He gets cited, it's in the public it's a stupid mistake, and he gets to claim the moral high ground because it was a mistake, he self reported.

This is what it is. Shady behavior, a minor crime, compounded by a bigger crime, compounded by a search for wiggle room


He might get a sympathetic judge, but his sponsors will bail, because the public sees an attempt to slide on some technicality.

The pressure to be "the man" must be just overwhelming to some folks.

A career destroyed for a picture.

I can't imagine that conversation with my wife
 
hossblur said:
Hate to break it you guys, but this ship done sailed.

There will be concrete action taken on one side or the other.

When you see who is on what side, it's going to shock a bunch of you.

Personally I was impressed.

I'll just echo Hawkeye, who echoed me, who echoed Slam.

If baiting doesn't work then why do it.

EFA tip toes around it, so he gets partial credit.


If the animals behave no differently, you should publish a study, because millions are spent yearly on deer bait in this country. There must be a lot of stupid guys out dropping time and coin for nothing.
Click to expand...

I'd love to publish a study, but are you willing to pay for it and/or do it? I'd help with some of the legwork and I don't even want a salary, but somebody has to go through the red tape and expenses of finding and paying for a credible biologist (or 2) for about 2 years to get reliable data from as many sites and seasons as it takes to be reliable. And someone has to convince the DWR and Wildlife Board to hold off their decision until the study is complete. Otherwise, if they make a decision to ban it and the study is enough to change their minds, those who oppose banning won't allow it to continue regardless.

I guess I could publish a daily-log type paper on my own, but who would believe me then any more than they believe me now?

Take my word for it (or not), the ONLY differences in movement I have seen when baiting are that:
1) Some, not all, adult deer (and occasionally elk) will stop by the apples, salt or bait blocks for a few seconds or minutes to smell them and/or eat them which is long enough to present the shot I want. (The fawns often linger longer than mama wants them to and she will chase them off, bleat at them or just move along until they follow.)
2) Some are actually initially spooked by the strange smell and will avoid them by walking around them to get to the water from another direction. They may get used to them later on and start eating them, but deer are very suspicious of strange new smells, sights or sounds and will often stomp and huff to get a reaction from the "stranger". And bucks are more cautious than does.

Otherwise, they come in feeding like they normally do without bait, take a drink like they normally do without bait and leave feeding like they normally at the times they normally do without bait.

Sometimes they'll alter their movements because of the blind or the human scent I leave coming and going the, but it's not the bait they are worried about. I handle ALL of my bait with gloves, even when I pick up the apples off the ground at home.

Believe me, I've done my homework in the field and in my home office. At last count I have 73 3- ring binders (I love having it on paper.) filled with information about big game and big game hunting (mostly deer) and related issues. Everything from sagebrush and mycorrhizal fungi to all the Expo tag winners. I also have all the proclamations from 1989 to 2020 and even some before that. I have the annual big game reports from 2012 and all of the latest deer unit plans. Of course, you all may have that information to on your Iphones, so that's nothing special, but do you spend 10 or 15 hours per week studying it and looking for more info? Hopefully, some of you do. We need more and more info all the time to manage the changing wildlife issues. It's hard enough managing the animals, let alone managing the hunting. We can learn from each other when we talk, but we can't learn from each other when we shout! Let's talk!

Ya, I know. Another rant from a grouchy old fart. I'll shut up now go have brunch.
 
Vanilla said:
I will summarize my feelings to various posts above as I've skimmed through by saying this:

I have seen many threads on this, and multiple people, including EFA, talk about how baiting doesn't really work. Then he says he's done it consistently for 15 years. Why do it if it doesn't work? I usually agree with almost everything EFA posts, and think he's a level-headed guy that thinks the issues through. I respect his opinion and give him a lot of deference and credibility. I just can't buy this one. He, and anyone else, has the right to advocate for this practice all he wants. I just see it the other way. It's definitely not personal.

I agree that the proposed "compromise" to a ban on baiting would be an enforcement nightmare. We can't even enforce weapon type usage and legal shooting hours for the most part, and now we're going to enforce GPS bait sites with a cap on the total number of apples that can be placed at each? I don't see it. I agree with hawkeye, it's time to just make a policy decision, and I hope the one they come up with is to say baiting is banned.

Of course, there will be details to work out on this one. What is considered baiting? What about minerals and salt licks? What about trail cameras as part of this?

As has been said above, a random hunter running a couple cameras: no big deal. People running dozens (or hundreds) to the point you can't walk anywhere in the forest without showing up on someone's camera? That becomes a different issue. A guy putting out a handful of apples near a blind/tree stand? Meh. People dumping loads of apples and now running other hunters off public land because that is "their bait pile?" Yep, going to be an issue. Not everyone that uses lots of apples or tons of trail cameras are doing bad things to other hunters, but there are certainly some that are.

Irresponsible and inconsiderate actions bring regulation. That is a fact of life, and it doesn't matter what topic we are discussing.
Click to expand...

Great, let's make a decision about baiting BEFORE we define baiting. That's exactly what I've said you've been doing all along.

I've NEVER said my "baiting" doesn't work! I've only said it doesn't work as much as you think it does or need it to work in order to make your point. You NEED those piles of apples showing 4 or 5 bucks "feeding" on them and you NEED to call it "baiting" to get what you want, but since I can't give that to you, you think I must be lying. Good for you! At least you'll get to sleep at night knowing you've won a battle with an enemy of the "right" way to hunt. Congratulations! Go get a beer!

Edit: Bottom line: You don't need to ban "baiting" to get them to stop. All you have to do is call it what it is and enforce the current "feeding" laws.
 
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elkfromabove said:
I'd love to publish a study, but are you willing to pay for it and/or do it? I'd help with some of the legwork and I don't even want a salary, but somebody has to go through the red tape and expenses of finding and paying for a credible biologist (or 2) for about 2 years to get reliable data from as many sites and seasons as it takes to be reliable. And someone has to convince the DWR and Wildlife Board to hold off their decision until the study is complete. Otherwise, if they make a decision to ban it and the study is enough to change their minds, those who oppose banning won't allow it to continue regardless.

I guess I could publish a daily-log type paper on my own, but who would believe me then any more than they believe me now?

Take my word for it (or not), the ONLY differences in movement I have seen when baiting are that:
1) Some, not all, adult deer (and occasionally elk) will stop by the apples, salt or bait blocks for a few seconds or minutes to smell them and/or eat them which is long enough to present the shot I want. (The fawns often linger longer than mama wants them to and she will chase them off, bleat at them or just move along until they follow.)
2) Some are actually initially spooked by the strange smell and will avoid them by walking around them to get to the water from another direction. They may get used to them later on and start eating them, but deer are very suspicious of strange new smells, sights or sounds and will often stomp and huff to get a reaction from the "stranger". And bucks are more cautious than does.

Otherwise, they come in feeding like they normally do without bait, take a drink like they normally do without bait and leave feeding like they normally at the times they normally do without bait.

Sometimes they'll alter their movements because of the blind or the human scent I leave coming and going the, but it's not the bait they are worried about. I handle ALL of my bait with gloves, even when I pick up the apples off the ground at home.

Believe me, I've done my homework in the field and in my home office. At last count I have 73 3- ring binders (I love having it on paper.) filled with information about big game and big game hunting (mostly deer) and related issues. Everything from sagebrush and mycorrhizal fungi to all the Expo tag winners. I also have all the proclamations from 1989 to 2020 and even some before that. I have the annual big game reports from 2012 and all of the latest deer unit plans. Of course, you all may have that information to on your Iphones, so that's nothing special, but do you spend 10 or 15 hours per week studying it and looking for more info? Hopefully, some of you do. We need more and more info all the time to manage the changing wildlife issues. It's hard enough managing the animals, let alone managing the hunting. We can learn from each other when we talk, but we can't learn from each other when we shout! Let's talk!

Ya, I know. Another rant from a grouchy old fart. I'll shut up now go have brunch.
Click to expand...


Why did you start baiting?

I'll assume you didn't start at the beginning of your hunting career.

So why did you decide to put out your first bait.


I'll counter by saying the 2 bait sites I was around(salt only) there is no grass groeth around it by a 6 ft circle, and holes a foot deep where they've dug for even salt run off.

They are covered by 4 cams, 3 stands and a ground blind.

Oh, and cat tracks and bear scratches all over. Seems the baited ain't the only one hunting there
 
elkfromabove said:
Baiting is an ethics issue, but spotlighting is a safety issue! You don't know what or who is beyond the spotlight! Please don't mix up or overlap the different reasons for different laws and then generate a discussion just to gather support. for your opinion.
Click to expand...
Then why can you hunt other animals at night in many states? Those laws were made for the same reason.
 
Tristate said:
I will tell it like it is. Baiting works on some deer. Baiting doesn't work on some deer. Some baits work on some deer at certain times of the year and do not work at other times of the year. Sometimes you can switch baits at different times of the year and keep a deer feeding. Sometimes you can't. This is the truth.
Click to expand...

Tri, did you bait your Utah muzzleloader buck that you took with WLH a few years ago? That buck was a smoker for sure. Were you chumming with truckloads of apples?

Hawkeye
 
elkfromabove said:
I've NEVER said my "baiting" doesn't work! I've only said it doesn't work as much as you think it does or need it to work in order to make your point. You NEED those piles of apples showing 4 or 5 bucks "feeding" on them and you NEED to call it "baiting" to get what you want, but since I can't give that to you, you think I must be lying. Good for you! At least you'll get to sleep at night knowing you've won a battle with an enemy of the "right" way to hunt. Congratulations! Go get a beer!
Click to expand...

To be clear, I don't think you're a liar, nor did I ever call you a liar. I think you and I disagree on a method to pursue game being proper or not. Nothing more, nothing less. I really meant it when I said it is not personal, but for some reason, your response makes it seem like you are way more emotionally invested in this topic than I am.

I won't apologize for disagreeing respectfully with you. If your feelings are hurt over the discussion, that's more about you than anyone else. I don't think you are a bad person for wanting to be allowed to bait deer. You shouldn't think others are a bad person for thinking people should be prohibited from doing that.
 
Tristate said:
"Irresponsible and inconsiderate actions bring regulation. That is a fact of life, and it doesn't matter what topic we are discussing."


We are talking about neither here.
Click to expand...

Really? Nobody is being irresponsible or inconsiderate in how they bait or use trail cameras in Utah? How would you know that? Prove your claim, I'll be waiting.
 
Actually vanilla you made the claim. You have even made that claim on another thread and I asked you to explain it and instead you just called me names.

YOU MADE THE CLAIM. TELL US WHAT IS IRRESPONSIBLE ABOUT BAITING A DEER OR USING A TRAIL CAMERA?

I bet you just come back name calling again.
 
"Tri, did you bait your Utah muzzleloader buck that you took with WLH a few years ago? That buck was a smoker for sure. Were you chumming with truckloads of apples?"

No. I did kill a muley buck off a wheat field once though.
 
Tristate said:
YOU MADE THE CLAIM. TELL US WHAT IS IRRESPONSIBLE ABOUT BAITING A DEER OR USING A TRAIL CAMERA?

I bet you just come back name calling again.
Click to expand...

Having a giant pile of bait, and then running other hunters off public land claiming those are "your deer" and "your bait pile" is irresponsible and inconsiderate. But I've already shared that example, so your requests are found lacking, once again.

But you've now lost two bets to me in about a week. (not to mention the major one we made about a certain poached deer in Utah a few years ago) When are you going to pay up and go away?
 
Tri, you would only need to spend 5 minutes on these forums to find examples of incidents where hunters have acted irresponsibly and inconsiderately while baiting and/or using trail cameras. It happens all the time. Think about the incident involving WLH guides on the Paunsaugunt last year. That incident involved both baiting and trail cameras.

One major problem that I have noticed with SOME (not all) hunters that bait or use trail cameras is they think they have a claim to a certain area or a certain animal that was located as a result of their scouting/baiting efforts. As a result, it often leads to increased friction and conflict with other sportsmen that happen to get in their way. Unfortunately, some of our local guide services are the "best/worst" examples of this type of conduct.

I am still waiting to hear whether you baited your Utah muzzleloader buck that you took with WLH a few years ago? That thing was a toad for sure. How about posting a photo for the group?

Hawkeye
 
EFA gave some very well thought out solutions that would still make his practices work. (Agree that this would be an administrative/enforcement nightmare.) Also the guy that baits a just a little more than EFA does, will want to chip away a bit at those those restrictions. And the guy that baits at a level a little above that guy will want to chip away more. This cycle could go on and on until nothing is banned

Time to keep it simple and end baiting big or small.
 
Vanilla said:
Having a giant pile of bait, and then running other hunters off public land claiming those are "your deer" and "your bait pile" is irresponsible and inconsiderate. But I've already shared that example, so your requests are found lacking, once again.

But you've now lost two bets to me in about a week. (not to mention the major one we made about a certain poached deer in Utah a few years ago) When are you going to pay up and go away?
Click to expand...


The baiting isn't irresponsible. Using the trail camera isn't irresponsible. Blocking a road to confront people is irresponsible.

Yall actually believe that the bait or a camera leads to behavior where people control an area. I've got news for you guys. I have run into people on public land who think they control an area. No bait or cameras were involved. Those are personal problems with people. Taking bait or a camera away from them won't fix it.

So how is baiting or using a camera irresponsible?
 
We already have laws in place for running off other hunters. Shouldn't that fix your problem or are you just coming up with some lame reason to justify another law you want.
 
I've got to say Vanilla and Hawkeye, the idea that people who have cameras or bait and behave irresponsibly are a reason to outlaw them is the exact same logic that says if someone behaves irresponsibly with a gun then no one should have one.
 
Tristate said:
We already have laws in place for running off other hunters. Shouldn't that fix your problem or are you just coming up with some lame reason to justify another law you want.
Click to expand...

It actually is just one step closer to me being king of the world and getting everything I want. You figured me out. Do I have your vote?

Tristate said:
I've got to say Vanilla and Hawkeye, the idea that people who have cameras or bait and behave irresponsibly are a reason to outlaw them is the exact same logic that says if someone behaves irresponsibly with a gun then no one should have one.
Click to expand...

I'll agree with this if you can show me where in the constitution we have the right to keep and bear trail cams or bait piles. As always, I'll wait patiently.
 
So if it isn't covered in the constitution you think that makes it okay to use an illogical argument to get what you want????????


Wait. I just realized you are using an illogical argument to justify that you can use an illogical argument to screw people over. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Its a never ending cycle.:LOL:
 
hossblur said:
Why did you start baiting?

I'll assume you didn't start at the beginning of your hunting career.

So why did you decide to put out your first bait.


I'll counter by saying the 2 bait sites I was around(salt only) there is no grass groeth around it by a 6 ft circle, and holes a foot deep where they've dug for even salt run off.

They are covered by 4 cams, 3 stands and a ground blind.

Oh, and cat tracks and bear scratches all over. Seems the baited ain't the only one hunting there.

This is gonna be a long one! Take a seat!

I've done my homework. More than you could ever imagine.

I started hunting bait in Utah when I realized it was legal, after I moved back here from Oxnard California, in order to get the "perfect" ethical bowshot. Prior to that I thought it was illegal like everyone else. And that's the same reason I'm still using it. And, no, it was not just to draw in a trophy!

I can't speak regarding the 2 salt bait sites you were around because I don't have enough information about them to discuss them, but I can tell you in detail about the only one I have.
It's located at the end of a really rough "road" next to a guzzler at the base of one of Southern Utah's many cinder cones (called knolls). I use about 2 dozen scattered apples as well as the single mineralized salt block. If you've ever been at the base of one of those cones, you'll know that the ground is COVERED with rough, sharp rock solid "ashes" of sizes from marbles to Volkswagons that the cones have blown out over millions of years, and which grass doesn't grow in (There is NO grazing there.) and soft footed animals don't walk on. The largest soft footed animal I ever seen come to the guzzler is a light-footed fox. (I've seen 2 of them and one of them stole one of my apples, darn it!) I've never seen a rabbit, tree squirrel, porcupine, badger, skunk, weasel, coyote, turkey, pine hen, bobcat, ground hog, rock chuck or anything eIse I may not recognize come to the guzzler, let alone a heavy cougar chasing after a deer or a bear coming for the apples And there are no tracks or scat either. But hoofed animals do just fine. I even have a tough time walking there in soft soled boots. And deer and elk recovery is tough, especially if there is no blood trail or they go more than 100 yards or so. You pretty much have to carry them because those ashes can tear up the hide and puncture any cart tires.

As far as the treestands or blinds go, I and my pharmacist are the only ones who I have known about that have ever set them there and that's because, unknown to me at the time, he had a blind there and I left him a note with my phone number asking for permission to use it if he wasn't there. He called me and that's when I knew who the owner was and he said, "Sure", just let me know when". He no longer sets up a blind there, but I do and he knows he's welcome to use it. In fact, I leave a note on the outside letting other hunters know they are welcome to it if I'm not using it. "Just let me know".

The cameras? I don't use them, but over the years I've seen a few and they ALWAYS focus on the guzzler, not the bait. No one else has ever set up a blind or treestand on that guzzler, so maybe they haven't seen what they are looking yet, I don't know.

Deer and elk do indeed paw out holes where the salt is. I just fill them right back up with the rocks/ashes they've pawed out.

The other two sites?
One is in bear and cougar country on a well used game trail that the deer use to go back and forth to bedding and Mountain Mahogany feeding areas. I don't use apples or salt there. But I do use a 4 or 5 lb block of CalRanch vegetation wildlife feed which doesn't attract the bears that much, if at all. Though I've never seen any bears or cougars or any scat, covered carcasses, tracks or scratch marks nearby, I certainly can't claim they aren't there. However, I can't imagine my bait would make any difference in that regard, because, like the other sites, I notice no difference in the numbers, timing, or direction that deer come or go around my bait. My bait sites look absolutely nothing like the Pauns or Texas "baiting" sites we keep seeing on these threads and if some predation is going on there, it would likely be hard to blame it on my bait.

The other site is on the Zion unit and is a puddle of water coming from a spring-fed creek in a small open meadow. I have no blind and only hunt elk there and seldom use bait. But, occasionally, if I happen to have some on hand, I'll use 5 or 6 apples to increase their curiosity in order to get the shot I want. It was here (actually the spring itself) where I got my Pope and Young bull from a treestand. (Thus "elkfromabove" "EFA") and on that occasion I was not using bait. But that was some time ago and I was younger and healthier then (2004).

I think I've covered all of your concerns, but whether or not it changes your view, I guess that's up to you. I can only tell you what I know.
Click to expand...
 
letmgetbig said:
All this arguing is because there are more hunters than Deer. That's the problem. I had no idea that baiting was going on in Utah. I think BAITING is a dirty trick and certainly not fair chase. It's hard for me to believe that our ETHICS differ so much, you would think as HUNTERS we would all be on the same page. Ridgetops there is such a thing as taking more than your share now days.
Click to expand...

One of the reasons our ethics about this issue differ so much is that baiting and it's consequences have NOTHING to do with the number of deer we have! But, because some of you believe it does, you are willing to ban it at the expense of other hunters. How ethical is that?
 
As hunters we are always looking for something to give us an edge. It’s getting to the point where I would like the edge to swing back in the game’s favor. Don’t get me wrong, I love knocking down big critters, but I like to see big critters thrive also. I’ve said it before and will say it again, our gadgets, guns, optics, baits, camera’s, research has gotten to a point that is extremely one sided. If we take all the critters defenses out of the equation with the tools we use, doesn’t that defeat the sportsmanship of our hunting heritage? There are a lot of ego’s to feed in the hunting community, I’m as guilty as the next guy. But at what point and what cost do we pump the brakes?
 
fullthrottle said:
As hunters we are always looking for something to give us an edge. It’s getting to the point where I would like the edge to swing back in the game’s favor. Don’t get me wrong, I love knocking down big critters, but I like to see big critters thrive also. I’ve said it before and will say it again, our gadgets, guns, optics, baits, camera’s, research has gotten to a point that is extremely one sided. If we take all the critters defenses out of the equation with the tools we use, doesn’t that defeat the sportsmanship of our hunting heritage? There are a lot of ego’s to feed in the hunting community, I’m as guilty as the next guy. But at what point and what cost do we pump the brakes?
Click to expand...

I agree with your post, but the issue here is baiting is NOT the most effective place to start pumping the brakes. This is about an agenda being pushed disguised as helping the health of the herd. The others you mentioned would be much more effective in "guns and optics" if we truly want to improve deer numbers. Scoped rifles have and will continue to impact the herd over an apple. That is a hard pill to swallow for this crowd.
 
huntindad4 said:
Then why can you hunt other animals at night in many states? Those laws were made for the same reason.
Click to expand...

Were they?

In the USA, each state is allowed to make it's own laws based on their own reasons. In some states you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon, but in other states you can't . In other states you're allowed to gamble. In Utah, you can't. In some states, a motorcyclist can squeeze between cars at a stoplight. In some states he/she can't.

Just because you are allowed to hunt animals at night in many states, that doesn't mean it's safer. It only means that you are allowed to do something dangerous if you chose to. Personally, I wouldn't chose to.
 
Humans are very proficient at just about everything we decide to do. We make better, more accurate firearms that shoot farther, more powerful spotting scopes, vehicles that go more places, bows that shoot farther, trail cameras, etc. It's human nature to figure out how to do just about everything easier. It's just who we are. If baiting continues, someone will develop an attractant that deer can't resist. You know it's coming.

At some point we need to decide that easier is not always the best way to go. If we lose the thrill and challenge involved in hunting, then what's the point?
 
Your Days of Baitin are Numbered!

It'd Be Interesting to know how many Mastur's will just keep doing as they Please no matter what Rules/Laws are put in place?
 
Personally I would like baiting and trail cams banned. Nothing wrong with some of these animals surviving thru the hunts. That is how they get bigger. I love seeing the big ones that made it thru the hunt. It’s one smart animal to make it with all the technology now days. Or really lucky
 
And yes I use trail cams. I started last year with 12 down to 5 due to thieves. So if they banned them I wouldn’t put them up so at least they wouldn’t get stolen. Nothing in this world worse than a thief. Apparently they’ve not worked hard enough for their money or they wouldn’t steal
 
elkassassin said:
Your Days of Baitin are Numbered!

It'd Be Interesting to know how many Mastur's will just keep doing as they Please no matter what Rules/Laws are put in place?
Click to expand...
I'm sure on private property it will happen. Probably more guys will be hunting those fence lines more than ever.
 
Giddyup said:
And yes I use trail cams. I started last year with 12 down to 5 due to thieves. So if they banned them I wouldn’t put them up so at least they wouldn’t get stolen. Nothing in this world worse than a thief. Apparently they’ve not worked hard enough for their money or they wouldn’t steal
Click to expand...

Or they thought cams were unethical.
 

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