Big time baiting... should it be legal? And do you consider it hunting?

Letshunt

Letshunt

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Hunting has changed... should baiting be legal?
-guns shoot 1,000 yards
-rifle scopes that have rangefinders in them that do all the calculations for you
-spotting scopes and binos are better than ever
-5-6 spotters per hunter (typically). Sometimes more if it’s a big time guide service
-Satellite trail cameras that send pics during hunts
I am sure there are a lot more that I could list, but with all the advances in the hunting world I don’t think we as hunters should be allowed to shoot a buck coming to a pile of apples or other types of bait piles. I love using trail cams and it’s a big part of scouting but I believe it should be left at that. I’d love to hear all of your thoughts. No finger pointing. Just how you personally feel.
 
The OP touched on a lot of subjects in the initial post, not just baiting.
We want larger deer herds with a more mature age structure but refuse to give up any of our new toys. If we think being able to shoot a buck off a pile of apples 4 feet high at 1000 yards is hunting, then we have truly lost our way.
Ban baiting, including hunting over salt.
 
Ban baiting!

The fact that even the pro-baiters don't openly brag about their baiting shows even they are embarrassed by their actions. The Pauns guides are infamous for it, but I've yet to see an apple on their Instagram pages.

There is a massive deer on the cover of a recent magazine that was baited for years using apples and hormones before being killed. The entire story in the magazine talks about them chasing this buck for years, and never once mentions the bushels of apples they got him hooked on like cocaine before they shot him!

Also, ban trail cameras 7 days prior to the first day of any season opening on that unit. That allows pre-season scouting but after that, you have to HUNT!
 
Grizzly, I like that proposal. I believe there should be a regulations on this... dumping 2 palates of apples every couple weeks and then sitting and waiting is hardly hunting in my opinion.
Mbogo, I agree with everything you said. I think game cameras and the size of groups per one hunter on a guided hunt should be better regulated but those are just a couple of things. Increasing hunter opportunity but decreasing kill rate would be a good thing.
 
I've hunted over bait, hunted natural food sources, hunted travel routes, still hunted, spot-stalk, and about every other way that's legal. It's all fun and the Lord's job to judge.

What I find funny is someone hunting agricultural fields thinking they're superior to a "bait" hunter.

What about dogs? All of us try to preserve the hounds for bear, cats, and coons, but frown upon those folks running deer in Arkansas and Louisiana.
 
A small portion of sportsmen want opportunity and quality, but a much larger portion of sportsmen want success as easy as it can come.
I utilize many tools that give me an incredible advantage over the game and greatly increase my odds of success, but I’d be happy to give it up for opportunity at higher quality game.....I’m a trophy hunter. But, many sportsmen love their tools and toys, paid lots of money and want to arch bullets, or check trail cam pics from home, or whatever to make it a bit easier to have success. And that’s all good. To each their own. If the majority decides to change rules, then so be it and I’ll live with it.

Bottomline, I definitely think the advantages we have are way too much. Too many roads, we can see too far, shoot too far, trick animals with food to come in close for a shot, etc, etc, etc. It never seems to end and opportunity will continue to decrease. Something has to give and sportsmen have opted to give up opportunity in exchange for technology and advantages.
 
BigChiefJ said:
I've hunted over bait, hunted natural food sources, hunted travel routes, still hunted, spot-stalk, and about every other way that's legal. It's all fun and the Lord's job to judge.

What I find funny is someone hunting agricultural fields thinking they're superior to a "bait" hunter.
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Need me some of those magic apple trees. Mine must be broken.

While I agree with the point you make about ag, I see a difference between agricultural crops and garbage that is hauled into the woods. Having both apple trees and alfalfa fields at my doorstep, I'll take the alfalfa field hands down. But the apple trees do bring em in for a couple of weeks. :)

No bait on public lands.
 
Founder said:
A small portion of sportsmen want opportunity and quality, but a much larger portion of sportsmen want success as easy as it can come.
I utilize many tools that give me an incredible advantage over the game and greatly increase my odds of success, but I’d be happy to give it up for opportunity at higher quality game.....I’m a trophy hunter. But, many sportsmen love their tools and toys, paid lots of money and want to arch bullets, or check trail cam pics from home, or whatever to make it a bit easier to have success. And that’s all good. To each their own. If the majority decides to change rules, then so be it and I’ll live with it.

Bottomline, I definitely think the advantages we have are way too much. Too many roads, we can see too far, shoot too far, trick animals with food to come in close for a shot, etc, etc, etc. It never seems to end and opportunity will continue to decrease. Something has to give and sportsmen have opted to give up opportunity in exchange for technology and advantages.
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I remember as a kid hunting with my dad in the early 80s and through the 90s when mule deer hunting was at an incredible high. So many big bucks ended up living because we didn’t have range finders and we were always trying to be within that 300 yard mark. How many more deer would be alive if that was still the standard? I know a lot of people have beef with how the DWR manages things and I for one have a couple of “beefs” myself, but as a group we haven’t really done anything to police ourselves. We push the limits on everything we do and our big game animals are suffering for sure. This entire shift towards killing for “show” (social media status) versus family hunting and putting meat in the freezer has taken its toll on these animals and now we are reaping what we’ve sowed and now we don’t like it but there is no hunting movement to change things on our end. Sometimes it’s no fun to look inward at things that we need to change, but man I feel like it would be a great thing for hunting.
 
I Think in order for quality of hunting life to increase 2 changes need to be made. Flat out ban Trail Cameras and Ban Baiting. Too many people know almost every animals every move / pattern from june - december. And to make matters worse now people are coercing their pattern by baiting them to a certain spot / camera. As for the guns, Its similar to the golf ball. If you don't govern the bullet or something the skys the limit. These animals are flat running outa real estate. It's going to take some brainstorming from a big party to figure out how to give the advantages back to the animals because right now the hunters / guides are in the driver seat and the road doesn't look too good.
 
i too would be willing to give up some opportunity for better quality/more animals (not that i'm complaining about what i've gotten in last few years), but i love the advantages my inline mz gives. i would go back to a more traditional mz if i had to.
I need the animals to be preserved for years to come. I would go crazy if i didn' feel like there was a big un around the corner on the hunt i chose to go on.
this is the only social media i participate in so it's hard for me to recognize the grip and grin impact.... i have personally seen idiots flinging lead at forkhorns on the first day of a rifle season at over 500 yards - result was a leg shot deer running by me.
 
I agree with strongly regulating baiting on public land because a lot of folks tend to think it becomes "their" spot after they start baiting an area.

Plus baited areas can get real trashy like another fellow mentioned.
 
A week can not go by on here without some one talking about Utah's deer population is down and no more big bucks on the general unit like the good old days, but very seldom do we say its probably the hunters that are effecting Utah deer more than most would admit. YES I do think that predator and habitat are the biggest factors but think about this;

1. Archery season is a month long.

2. You can bait for deer in Utah but it is against the regs to bait for turkeys; seems kinda backwards.

3. Modern day muzzleloaders with optics that hunters are using out to 500 yards; doesn't sound to primitive.

4. Long range rifles that hunters are using out to 1000 yards.

5. LE rut hunts on our general units.

6. Extended archery and HAMS hunts.

7. No trail camera regulations.

A lot of the stuff I just mentioned is out of our control but for a deer to get mature on a general Utah deer unit is almost a miracle. Utah needs to put it in the regs to stop baiting deer; just like turkey. Ban trail cameras during open seasons. And, not allow optics on muzzleloarders. This might just be a drop in the bucket to help, but it is a step in the right direction.
 
I'd like to see baiting banned for several reasons (off the top of my head).

1) The game is easier to pattern DURING shooting hours without bait piles. This was incredibly obvious when I started whitetail hunting. As soon as the baitpiles hit the ground, patterned activity switched over to nocturnal (and to centralized non-natural locations obviously).

Moving out west for spot and stalk adventures was a refreshing change and helped keep the passion alive for me. Over the last few years, the baiting practice has become exponentially more common. Apparently, everybody needs a documented "hit list" before the season starts.

2) It creates a sense of entitlement and ownership of public property and the animals themselves.

3) It greatly contributes to extreme visibility to large bucks. With our digital age and the social media platforms, no critter is safe from being broadcasted across the globe. Also, careless monetized InstaFaceTubers eager for a like, view, share and subscribers frequently publicize and out good hunting areas by distributing images.

4) They contribute to disease transmission.
 
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Deerlove said:
Weve got 1000 yard guns on every ridge, and were worried about some apples?? Talk about missing the point. And no I dont bait.
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Very true! Sportsmen do like to try and restrict advantages that they don't take advantage of. I think that's just human nature. I don't know. But you've made a great point, even though your avatar, the big D, is boring. ha ha
 
So let's make it illegal to hunt ANY agriculture fields. Guys plant a field of alfalfa and special "blends" of grass ect to attract deer and then pound them coming and going. The benefits out way the perceived issues.

Try some deer cocaine.....I did on some property I leased and it was funny to watch a real good buck chasing sage grouse away from where I spread it out. He was hooked.
 
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Lets cover all the bases. Some places baiting is about the only choice you have. Look at this picture. This pic was taken late morning on a crystal clear day. You see that black area in the background? That's the yaupon thicket. There is no spot and stalk in there. Visibility is usually under 20 feet and walking into it is a major undertaking. The best you can do is bait and hope you can draw animals out of it AND THAT AIN'T NO GUARANTEE. No grass grows in it because as you can see sun light has never touched the bottom. Millions and millions of acres is covered with that thicket. 1000 yard no stalk weapon systems don't help you. A swarovski spotter is useless. Use bait and play the wind and maybe you get lucky. I don't care if you don't call it hunting. I like to eat meat though so we do it.
 
Deerlove said:
Weve got 1000 yard guns on every ridge, and were worried about some apples?? Talk about missing the point. And no I dont bait.
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It's hard to codify a rifle's effective range, it's easy to codify baiting.

And to be clear to those posted above, nothing in Utah's, or surrounding states, anti-baiting laws prohibit hunting over crops used in a typical agriculture fashion. Normal crop fields are not part of this discussion.

Virtually every Pauns guide runs bait, how many of them give their clients a 1,000 yd gun when they pull into camp? We all know which one they'd defend as the most important factor in killing big deer for their clients... and it ain't the gun.
 
So, let me see if I have this right! Because certain people use excessive (big time) baiting and because you don't like the way they are doing it, you are willing (even anxious) to ban ALL of it no matter who does it or how it's done. AND you get to define what it is! Did I miss anything?
 
Tristate said:
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Lets cover all the bases. Some places baiting is about the only choice you have. Look at this picture. This pic was taken late morning on a crystal clear day. You see that black area in the background? That's the yaupon thicket. There is no spot and stalk in there. Visibility is usually under 20 feet and walking into it is a major undertaking. The best you can do is bait and hope you can draw animals out of it AND THAT AIN'T NO GUARANTEE. No grass grows in it because as you can see sun light has never touched the bottom. Millions and millions of acres is covered with that thicket. 1000 yard no stalk weapon systems don't help you. A swarovski spotter is useless. Use bait and play the wind and maybe you get lucky. I don't care if you don't call it hunting. I like to eat meat though so we do it.
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Feral hogs should have different rules.
 
Certain people shot deer at night with spotlights because it was highly effective, but hunters decided it wasn't Fair Chase or sporting and banned it. They then decided we'd base those rules around official daylight hours for clarity. Some animals are exempted from that protection like some varmints.

Baiting is the same way, Utah hunters should get to decide (like in virtually every state surrounding Utah that already bans baiting) whether it is sporting and Fair Chase. We could also decide if certain animals will be exempted, like bears.

The group of people, mainly in southern Utah, that depend on bait to shoot deer doesn't mean they're right. In fact, they'd be in the very small minority among hunters in the Rocky Mountain West.

Those who bait, but coincidentally always forget to put it in their pictures or the stories of the hunt, attempt to frame it as an overreach and offer false arguments; but really it is quite simple that Utah is the outlier and that hunters in surrounding states long-ago figured out how to hunt without the necessity of antler hormones, apples, and salt licks. They did this because they felt it was in the best interest of the sport and the wildlife. This is about the animals and ethics of hunting, not the guys that currently use bait. It's not personal.
 
I guarantee that 100x more deer/elk are killed over water than a pile of apples. How about banning all hunting within 600 feet of any water source.
FTR, I've never hunted or killed anything over a pile of apples or any other bait.
 
ridgetops said:
I guarantee that 100x more deer/elk are killed over water than a pile of apples. How about banning all hunting within 600 feet of any water source.
FTR, I've never hunted or killed anything over a pile of apples or any other bait.
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That's a prime example of hunters setting their own rules. I wouldn't support that provision though it could be discussed. It would also not be representative of other hunting regulations in the area, unlike a ban on baiting which would be typical for the area.

For example, Arizona considered a law banning cameras within 1/4 mile of a water source but eventually decided against it. Baiting is a reasonable conversation to have without people casting false dichotomies such as long range rifles and hunting over water.

It's okay to have a discussion as to whether baiting in Utah is really something we want to support statewide, knowing all the while there is a small number of people that depend on it.

Those who are so strong to support hunting big game over bait need to ask themselves why it's never bragged about or photographed, in fact it's avoided in the discussion of hunts. There are hundreds of stories of big game posted online every year and there are very few that show the apple piles in their Instagram stories. They also need to ask why all our surrounding states decided it was unethical. This isn't an attack on anybody, it's a discussion on who we are as hunters.
 
I dont agree with baiting. Plenty of literature will tell you that disease has a better opportunity to spread with baiting, which includes salt licks.
 
I guarantee that 100x more deer/elk are killed over water than a pile of apples. How about banning all hunting within 600 feet of any water source.
FTR, I've never hunted or killed anything over a pile of apples or any other bait.
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True.....but water is a natural necessity found everywhere, apples are not.
 
To be honest... once upon a time in my early bow hunting days at 20 years old, I used to pile up apples and poured peanut butter on logs to attract whitetail deer. At that time in my hunting “career” I placed a lot of value on bragging rights with my hunting buddies and friends for the animals that I had killed.
Today I’m approaching 50 years old, I’ve taken more than my fair share of game & to be completely honest, I could care less if I spend a week in the woods hunting & end up eating that tag. That being said, I don’t agree with baiting. I was wrong for doing it in the past & I don’t consider it fair chase.
I think most of us all “grow” as hunters / outdoorsman. It’s our responsibility to teach the next generation to hunt ethically, respect the animals we hunt & focus on what is truly important... memories, time spent with family & friends etc...
 
Does peanut butter actually work? I'm gonna have to try that one.

I'll tell yall a funny one. Probably 25 years ago I went to the feed store. They had a pallet of apple scented corn. We bought some sacks and put it out. Days later nothing had touched it. Then it dawned on us none of these animals down here even know what an apple is.??? money well spent.???
 
Tristate said:
Does peanut butter actually work? I'm gonna have to try that one.

I'll tell yall a funny one. Probably 25 years ago I went to the feed store. They had a pallet of apple scented corn. We bought some sacks and put it out. Days later nothing had touched it. Then it dawned on us none of these animals down here even know what an apple is.??? money well spent.???
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I’m not even going to respond to that question.
 
grizzly said:
It's hard to codify a rifle's effective range, it's easy to codify baiting.

And to be clear to those posted above, nothing in Utah's, or surrounding states, anti-baiting laws prohibit hunting over crops used in a typical agriculture fashion. Normal crop fields are not part of this discussion.

Virtually every Pauns guide runs bait, how many of them give their clients a 1,000 yd gun when they pull into camp? We all know which one they'd defend as the most important factor in killing big deer for their clients... and it ain't the gun.
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Grizz nailed it!?
 
So guides on the Pauns kill bigger deer than us and we all get jealous. Let's ban baiting that will show'm! Good call.....Nothing changes around here it makes my head hurt........
 
I was told by a reputable outfitter that the majority of the monster deer taken in Utah were baited.
 
Bocephus said:
Great point Sierra. If they were small deer being killed this wouldn't even be an issue.
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Really??? The post has nothing to do with small deer, monster bucks or anything in between.
Lets hunts question was basically do you support baiting or not?
My assumption is that you do support baiting based off of your response?
It’s fine if you do, just elaborate as to why you have that opinion.
 
Big or small deer being killed over baiting is not what is not what this conversation is about. It’s about “why is utah so far behind other states when it comes to fair chase mule deer hunting?” I’ve loved a lot of the points brought up on this topic. Grizzly has brought up some great points about this not being about hunters putting regulations upon themselves. But it’s a regulation that other states have done trying to make it fair chase and give the animals more of an opportunity to survive. Baiting is not hunting. Those who take offense to this idea or proposal need to understand that Its not a personal attack at how you have hunted and it doesn’t make you less of a person or a hunter if you have killed mule deer baiting. It’s just something that needs to be regulated. It’s gotten out of hand. Hunters who kill over bait are never proud of it. I know people who have killed 200 inch deer and when asked about it they usually “cough or slur” their words when they say how they killed it. But that never makes it in the stories because well even they know it wasn’t done with fair chase or really that ethical.
 
So are you referring to just about Utah or everywhere? Not all states have public land the way others do so forms of hunting are different. I personally don't like baiting but can't see nothing wrong with it. If that's what you have to do because you can't do a spot and stalk or any other method of hunting then good for you. Different states have different methods and I can't say baiting is not hunting just because I do not like it. I don't like trail cameras but I'm not going to tell someone that's not hunting because they use them. You could say we all bait in some way. We find a food, water or shelter and search around there. Calling can possibly be considered baiting as well. So I think you would have to be a lot more specific on what type of baiting should be illegal it's a very slippery slop to just say baiting should be banned.
 
Solid18 said:
I think you would have to be a lot more specific on what type of baiting should be illegal it's a very slippery slop to just say baiting should be banned.
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No reason to muddy it up, just do what they already do for turkeys. Basically, you can hunt normal agricultural land, but not somewhere that an attractant was placed to artificially lure animals.

The big guides and landowners can still hunt their alfalfa fields if they'd like to.

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Pissing on the bait pile probably wouldn't work. I've pissed on a whitetail scrape once and killed a mature buck off it the next day. Now the stealing someone else's property might work. But..that's for thieves. I'm not one.
 
Smokingfire I would go with that since the majority of the guys whining about bait feel like lobbing bullets from another area code is somehow more ethical and sporting.....
 
I think cameras are fun but should be restricted to off season use only. I use cameras but pull them the first week of the archery hunt while hunting. I dont know how you would enforce off season use only. I get more excited seeing bears, Bobcats, and lions on the camera than the deer and elk I am actually pursuing.
 
Keep it up boys and you'll see the whole damn thing get banned. At the very least you'll soon see even more unintended consequences!

We really are our own worst enemy because of the divisive nature we cultivate around here ("social" media).

Far too many are tainted by their paradigm and can only see one side of the coin. At least most, in this thread, have not resorted to name-calling.....yet.

Zeke
 
How many tons of bait are placed on Paunsaugant alone, what are you afraid to get back to real hunting. Baiting, trail cameras, flying, 20 spotters and you call that hunting. It sounds like a mess, or you could ask one of the guys hunting down there this year!
 
If you guys outlaw this, it sounds like you could cause the apple industry to collapse. It can't possibly be that bad can it?
 
Wow if its as prevalent as you think it sounds like you wouldn't be able to pattern an animal. Sounds like he would go to this bait site then that one then another one, on and on and on.
 
Tristate said:
Wow if its as prevalent as you think it sounds like you wouldn't be able to pattern an animal. Sounds like he would go to this bait site then that one then another one, on and on and on.
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Yep, then you get to fight the guides who placed it all out on public land.
 
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Yall see this deer? In this pic he is 5 years old. He was shot at and missed about 20 days after this pic was taken. He's still alive I am pretty sure. Saw him with my eyes this last Christmas 2019. He comes to this one feeder once in awhile. He has become highly nocturnal. He will be 7 next year. There's heavy hunting pressure all around us. Somehow this dude has a plan. Baiting deer with food ain't as cut and dry as many people think.

I understand it may not be YOUR preferred method of hunting. No problem there. But I am not sure you should be trying to legislate against people who do use bait.
 
Tristate said:
I don't see why you fight? Just go hunt. Deer could be anywhere on any bait. Just go hunt.
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Or just ban baiting and trail cameras all together. Makes the playing field more even and gives the animal more of a fair chance. Same can be said about long range rifle scopes.
 
Ban this ban that. Hogwash. Let’s keep it simple. Let’s ban any hunting related idea from Utah.
 
"Makes the playing field more even and gives the animal more of a fair chance. "

Why does it make it more even when you can do the exact same thing? Sounds pretty even to me. As for more of a fair chance I think thats debatable.

Maybe it would be a better choice to make some units bait units and some units spot and stalk only. How's that idea?
 
Tristate said:
"Makes the playing field more even and gives the animal more of a fair chance. "

Why does it make it more even when you can do the exact same thing? Sounds pretty even to me. As for more of a fair chance I think thats debatable.

Maybe it would be a better choice to make some units bait units and some units spot and stalk only. How's that idea?
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I think no matter what I say, you won’t agree. My personal preference would be no baiting, no trail cams and no long range rifle scopes. Not saying it’s the only answer or even the right answer. Just my personal preference.
 
It may have already been mentioned & if it has I apologize. Chronic wasting disease is spreading all across the US and has severely hurt deer densities in certain portions in many of the states.
By baiting to a specific area, that means that the local herd will congregate to that area. It just takes one affected animal to visit that site before it spreads through the herd like the Coronavirus in China.
I recently talked to a buddy in Urbandle Iowa that said that both blue tongue & CWD has decimated roughly 80% of their deer herd.
If you care at all about the future of the animals you hunt why would you potentially subject them to that? Would you take your family to China to vacation right now?
 
CWD isn't spreading like corona virus. Blue tongue does spread very quickly and can decimate a herd. However blue tongue deaths have nothing to do with baiting or congregating deer.

CWD is a real concern for all deer hunters and there is some evidence that baiting can increase the infection rate in an area but there is also evidence that it can slow down the geographic spread of the disease. So right now it is a little give and take.

Smokingfire,

I am not trying to argue but what do you think about some units being bate units and some being no bait?
 
“CWD isn't spreading like corona virus. Blue tongue does spread very quickly and can decimate a herd. However blue tongue deaths have nothing to do with baiting or congregating deer”

I disagree... Just 2 years ago the first confirmed case of CWD was confirmed in Fayette & Hardeman Counties in TN. Since that time CWD has spread into the northern counties of MS. That is a large area for just 2 short years.
Blue tongue is an insect born virus. So you don’t think that congregating deer around another deer with the virus has any potential for those animals being affected? The blue tongue virus isn’t contagious like CWD, but I would argue that the potential for other deer to be infected by the contagious midges goes up.
 
The number of deer killed by CWD and the number of deer killed by blue tongue are vastly different. If you want to talk about how wide an area CWD is infected you should be looking at the deer and elk breeding industry.

As for the transmission of blue tongue the gnats that transmit carry it miles. I know that seems crazy that a stupid gnat will go a couple of miles but they do. Also because gnats are involved water is way more critical to the spread of blue tongue than food resources.

As for deer being near other deer there ain't no stopping that. They are social creatures. They eat together and even groom each other.
 
Tri you've made some good points imo. These guys will cry that baiting will hurt the herd, baiting is not fair or ethical, but none of them will admit the underlining real issue. Guys are jealous that big deer are being killed over bait. You say "who cares just go hunt" I agree! Why worry what a guide on the Pauns is doing or anybody else as long as it is legal. Anybody could go bait, or shoot long range etc. why ban something because you dont agree with it It's high school drama. You kill bigger deer than me, but you used bait so it's not "cool". Give me a break, anybody that has ever done it realizes it isnt as simple as throwing a pile of apples out and a 200" deer walks in.

3toe why you so concerned about baiting in Utah? As a resident in Nevada I would be worrying more about never being able to draw a tag in the state you live in.
 
“3toe why you so concerned about baiting in Utah? As a resident in Nevada I would be worrying more about never being able to draw a tag in the state you live in.”

Bocephus- To me it’s a question of ethics regardless of what state you live in. True I live in NV, but I will typically hunt in 3 or 4 different states every year. I even hunt UT every few years and plan to turkey hunt there this year. I simply don’t agree with with the act of baiting, that’s all.
 
Bocephus said:
Tri you've made some good points imo. These guys will cry that baiting will hurt the herd, baiting is not fair or ethical, but none of them will admit the underlining real issue. Guys are jealous that big deer are being killed over bait. You say "who cares just go hunt" I agree! Why worry what a guide on the Pauns is doing or anybody else as long as it is legal. Anybody could go bait, or shoot long range etc. why ban something because you dont agree with it It's high school drama. You kill bigger deer than me, but you used bait so it's not "cool". Give me a break, anybody that has ever done it realizes it isnt as simple as throwing a pile of apples out and a 200" deer walks in.

3toe why you so concerned about baiting in Utah? As a resident in Nevada I would be worrying more about never being able to draw a tag in the state you live in.
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I don't think jealousy matters in reference to baiting. I think it isn't fair hunting. Go put salt blocks all over for everyone -jeesh
 
Money can’t buy luck and hard work. It takes a lot of both to kill a big buck. Money can buy bait but not glory I really don’t care what you do or use to hunt as long as it’s legal.
 
"Jealousy" has absolutely nothing to do with baiting, anyone can chum.

For years and years on here we listen to complaints about all the guides and dozens of spotters hoarding up all the best spots on public lands. There's not a single guzzler or natural waterhole on our top LE units that doesn't have an outfitters camera on it, and most have camera's from multiple outfitters whom all try to stake claim against one another, let alone the general public.

Now we have discovered (actually apple baiting has been a secret with the outfitters for decades) deer are suckers for apples, especially the deer in the desert country where apples are completely a foreign substance.
Apples are Heroin for deer and they cannot resist them (ask any whitetail hunter).
So the new trick is to lure deer away from the well known water sources and into secret little honey holes where the shooters are waiting in their ground blinds over multiple bait stations.

As public hunters fight their way (some literally fighting) through hoards of spotters and scratch their heads as to how all these top Outfitters can harvest a dozen 200" bucks off one unit like it's so simple?
Well, it IS simple....

And while the guy who waits 17-20 years to draw his Paunsaugunt tag actually"hunts" his tail off to kill a 160" buck and gets home to see 4, 220" on Instagram from the same unit from one Outfitter, well....that's just how it's done in Utah.
 
^^^Correct. Apples are heroin to deer. This is in town in northern Utah during archery season going to the apples in somebody's yard. It's a wonder a "hunter" wasn't hiding in the recycling bin waiting to fling an arrow and be a hero

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And here's another deer that was hooked on apples before being shot

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Oh boy.....here we go with the heroin apples again. <rolleyes>

Don't get the wrong idea, it should still be illegal as it is on much of our public land. You are right to want it outlawed on public lands.
 
grizzly said:
^^^Correct. Apples are heroin to deer. This is in town in northern Utah during archery season going to the apples in somebody's yard. It's a wonder a "hunter" wasn't hiding in the recycling bin waiting to fling an arrow and be a hero

View attachment 2104
View attachment 2106

And here's another deer that was hooked on apples before being shot

View attachment 2107
Click to expand...
Wasn’t he killed up “high?” That’s how the story sounded?
 
Apparently my deer don't know what heroin is.



One time I was hunting deer out of state. I saw a big pile of apples on the ground. Never saw a deer there. Saw very little sign of deer. It was right near a campground. I'm not sure deer around there thought it was heroin. Lots of chipmunks chewing on them.
 
I got one question
If all these big deer that these outfitters guide hunters too are all killed by the outfitters using bait (apples) and we never see pictures of the bait site (apple pile). How do you all know that them bucks are killed on bait sites (apples)?
 
notdonhunting said:
I got one question
If all these big deer that these outfitters guide hunters too are all killed by the outfitters using bait (apples) and we never see pictures of the bait site (apple pile). How do you all know that them bucks are killed on bait sites (apples)?
Click to expand...
Easy answer:
Move the buck.
As a guide myself of 20+ years, we get pretty good at creative photography, mostly to get recognizable background out of the pictures.

Trust me on this.....I have pictures of very good bucks feeding on apples in the Paunsaugunt, full velvet middle of the day.
 
Slam are you bitter because your Paunsagunt hunt didnt end up in a 220" buck? Did you have a bad experience on your hunt? I'm just curious because most of your venom is being thrown that way. I spend a lot of time on that unit almost every year and I have never had a bad experience like you say happens all the time. If a guy struggles to find a buck better than 160 on that unit I dont think a guides bait pile is the problem.
 
As a kid we hunted around a town with orchards just below some big mtn ranges... there were always deer hanging around the outside of the orchard because of the apples that would drop outside the high fence. So we’d hunt the low foothills a few hundred yards that was public off of the orchard and catch these bucks coming and going. It was successful, until one year we went down and the orchard was not an orchard anymore. No more apples...no more deer In that area. The reason people know that other people bait, especially guiding services is because people talk and guides come and go in some companies and share their experiences. I’ve had family members go on hunts with guides and guess what they did... sat over a pile of apples. When they killed their buck, they had bumped the buck off of the apple pile walking in to the blind and low and behold guess what the buck did?? he came back a couple hours later during shooting light and they smoked him. Just shy of that magical 200 inch mark... their guiding fee was 8500 dollars plus a tip to sit over apples. The buck was dragged to the bottom of a little swell with juniper and sage around it. Not an apple in the picture.... weird!! Ban baiting for mule deer in western states. Especially Utah.
 
Letshunt,

Nice story. Thanks for sharing. I just want to get this straight. You know somebody who shot a deer off a pile of apples. It was a big deer. So we should ban baiting???????

So should we ban everything that results in the death of a big deer?????? Is the whole point of getting a deer tag to not kill a deer or to only kill a small deer by the means which you approve?
 
Tristate said:
Letshunt,

Nice story. Thanks for sharing. I just want to get this straight. You know somebody who shot a deer off a pile of apples. It was a big deer. So we should ban baiting???????

So should we ban everything that results in the death of a big deer?????? Is the whole point of getting a deer tag to not kill a deer or to only kill a small deer by the means which you approve?
Click to expand...
I don’t think he’s against killing big deer...I think the better question is: Does baiting give the animal a fair chance? Is introducing food from outside their normal eating habits ethical? It clearly makes it easier to bring deer in or people wouldn’t do it.
 
Bocephus said:
Slam are you bitter because your Paunsagunt hunt didnt end up in a 220" buck? Did you have a bad experience on your hunt? I'm just curious because most of your venom is being thrown that way. I spend a lot of time on that unit almost every year and I have never had a bad experience like you say happens all the time. If a guy struggles to find a buck better than 160 on that unit I dont think a guides bait pile is the problem.
Click to expand...
Slamdunk doesn't have to be bitter. Maybe he sees it like many do- an unfair practice. That doesn't mean I know how he feels. I don't like baiting. Idaho doesn't allow it so that is how I was raised. I try to understand Utah but can't. In Idaho we aren't allowed Modern Muzzleloaders either. Utah has become a state where almost anything goes to get game. To top that off there are too many hunters. I can't understand it. It sounds like they need to cut some Outfitter licenses too.
 

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