whitetailrick
Active Member
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What is the deal with this new program?
They wonder why they can't get the point pools to cycle.....Cheap Resident point riding is a real problem (or opportunity). Do you think anyone at AZGFD even thinks about point riding before increasing the opportunity to 3 years with PointGuard “Plus”?
AZGFD has never seen a revenue idea they didn’t like.
Gonna be a lot of 85 year old grannies pulling that 23N tag 3 consecutive years and never step foot in the unit!Cheap Resident point riding is a real problem (or opportunity). Do you think anyone at AZGFD even thinks about point riding before increasing the opportunity to 3 years with PointGuard “Plus”?
AZGFD has never seen a revenue idea they didn’t like.
I doubt that....I read it differently looks like three consecutive draws not years so it would cover all species for all draws. if you entered for deer and sheep in June it would then cover the draw in October for Javelina and then it would also cover the draw in February for antelope and elk too.
I think you might be correct;I read it differently looks like three consecutive draws not years so it would cover all species for all draws. if you entered for deer and sheep in June it would then cover the draw in October for Javelina and then it would also cover the draw in February for antelope and elk too.
Ok, that makes more sense. Thanks.I read it differently looks like three consecutive draws not years so it would cover all species for all draws. if you entered for deer and sheep in June it would then cover the draw in October for Javelina and then it would also cover the draw in February for antelope and elk too.
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So the regular “next in line” for declined cards is unaffected? This would only apply to tags surrendered after the draw? Am I interpreting that correct?Also - I skimmed over this detail the first two times I read it, there is the second carrot dangling out there for the extra $ well done marketing dept....
- Those who purchase PointGuard Plus will receive priority positioning for the reissuing of hunt permit-tags that are surrendered by PointGuard members and non-members alike.
I interpret it to mean that the fee covers "...three consecutive draw cycles..." for all the species applied for compared to the one species/one cycle for the standard Point Guard fee. I don't believe it has anything to do with the number of returns.I’m guessing/hoping it is still just one return per species.
But one could construe this paragraph to apply to three consecutive reinstatements.
- For $25, an applicant will have the opportunity to surrender a hunt permit-tag and have their bonus points reinstated for all eligible big game species for three consecutive draw cycles from the date of purchase.
This whole PointGuard Plus needs more clarifying from the department. What does ”priority positioning” even mean?Also - I skimmed over this detail the first two times I read it, there is the second carrot dangling out there for the extra $ well done marketing dept....
- Those who purchase PointGuard Plus will receive priority positioning for the reissuing of hunt permit-tags that are surrendered by PointGuard members and non-members alike.
To me, most of it is pretty clear about how it works.Clear as mud comes to mind when I read this. I agree with Horniac, the department needs to issue a better description of what this is and how it works.
I'm almost sorry I quit hunting now."Priority positioning" puts you right after AZ GFD staff and family. But before their friends and neighbors.
Next year, I hear there will be a $50 "plus-plus" option that puts you in front of the in-laws of staff. It will also be offered inside a $500 package that includes a 5-point hunter ed online course and two entries for the ever expanding Dec-Feb bull/buck "limited entry" hunts. Almost forgot - all unit 12/13 buck tags and all Unit 9/10/1/27 Bull tags are moving exclusively to the "limited entry" special opportunity draw. And you are again reminded "not to confuse this limited entry opportunity with the annual draw". You know - the draw you bought points for all these years.
I agree. But its a 3 draw cycle coverage, not 3 year. Its actually only 1 year. Elk/Ant draw, Deer/sheep draw, spring hunts draw.After having to use my point guard last year for elk from a mistake on my app, I tried to change the next day (which by the way AZ doesn't let you change your app once it's done), I'm thank full to have the opportunity to buy a three year version. As of this last draw, you only got to use point guard once per species until you draw and it resets.
It would really suck to wait 20 something years, then break your arm or some such thing and not be able to hunt after a dumb mistake like mine a few years earlier.
Nothing to do with playing the system, just wanting to make it actually work when I do draw. At 60 something, this sort of thing becomes a bit more of an issue when you've vested 15 something in the points game there. Both oldmanitis when applying and the 6 months between the draw and the hunt
Cheers,
Pete
After reading the email about 32 times…lol….I think the credit card reject in the original draw stays the same, meaning the next guy/gal in line gets the tag, regardless of having PG or not.This whole PointGuard Plus needs more clarifying from the department. What does ”priority positioning” even mean?
Does that mean someone with PointGuard Plus would jump over the next alternate in-line for a returned tag who didn’t buy PointGuard Plus?
Does this apply to credit card rejects in the original draw so that PointGuard Plus holders would get the tag over the next applicant in the draw order who otherwise would have got the tag but only had the $10 PointGuard or no PointGuard at all?
Horniac
Gonna be a lot of 85 year old grannies pulling that 23N tag 3 consecutive years and never step foot in the unit!
Makes my head hurt to see what’s happening!
There‘s actually two ways to fix this. As you pointed out, all applicants surrender the tag. Another way is to eliminate party apps. Everyone must apply individually.When point guard was originally proposed it was also part of a club system with airline mile type tiers and benefits that could provide additional access to tags. it was pitched during the rollout of the new portal and there were clearly aspects that were outfitter sponsored. Hunters didn't like the idea of special tiers and were even averse to the myriad of tag pools and descriptions similar to what Utah had like "Limited Entry". Recently Arizona rolled out some tags called "Limited Entry" and I fear the same cast of troublemakers that pushed for a big Arizona hunt expo and hundreds of welfare tags pulled from the public trust are finding increasingly innovative ways to direct tags to their cronies. You only need to compare the authors of the expo proposal from a few years ago to the "non profits" eligible to accept surrendered tags through point guard to see what is going on.
I attended the portal/club/point guard meetings 5 plus years ago at G&F headquarters and did a point by point dissection of the problems with point guard. I beleive Scott Lavin was the technical person doing the presentation for this program. the issue of point sharing abuse due to limitations on tag surrenders but absolutely no limitations for those who bonus up on group applications every year was mentioned. in the end no limitations were implemented on group applications and there are many guys who have hunted very good mid-tier units every year on the backs of their non hunting family members ever since. it is certainly a great thing for outfitters who help play matchmaker for regular clients and kids and 90 year olds with a heartbeat and a hunting license.
While other states have started to put limitations on tag surrenders Arizona has found new ways to expand our out of control cluster flock called Point Guard. if the people that implemented this program were long time Arizona hunters rather than new transplants they would have known that just because there is technology available to implement certain things it isn't in the best interest of the hunting public to do so. The point guard problem could be fixed by requiring everyone on a group app to surrender their tag if one person does or to put limitations on how much a person can bonus up their application on a group app (leverage cannot be more than two points higher than the lowest applicant). Until that happens we have a black market open that allows some well financed and well positioned people to step in front of the line every year. completely unacceptable IMO. and I agree, if this new genius $25 deal has priority I positioning we need to understand EXACTLY what that means and there should be a GRAMA request to see where every surrendered tag has gone since the inception of the point guard program. Allowing a higher fee that provides benefits across draw cycles is just a way for outfitters to lock in the POS point guard system for even longer.
Arizona is a big state with a large population and dry and limited hunting areas. We don't have the capacity to allow these kind of circuses anymore. if I see another side by side with out of state plates rolling through 6a with crossbows in the bed during archery season I am going to lose it. We can thank point guard and the weak crossbow regulations for that both of those things. I thought Arizona was on the right track with the camera ban but clearly there is a whole lot of stupid going on right now. With crap like this it is embarrassing to call myself an Arizonan.
Conserve and Protect.....I will save my rant on that one for another day.
Ryan
Agreed. Not exactly sure what "priority positioning" means.To me, most of it is pretty clear about how it works.
The only murky part that I see is this:
The "priority positioning" part needs some clarification as to what that means compared to anyone else.
- Those who purchase PointGuard Plus will receive priority positioning for the reissuing of hunt permit-tags that are surrendered by PointGuard members and non-members alike.
View attachment 75764
Not sure what you mean. A person still can use PG twice to turn in a tag but gets BPs back only for the first time.Appears they eliminated the option of one person turning in a tag multiple years in a row, which is a good thing. Well, unless you're the person with a non-hunting friend with 25 points!
My understanding of the old system was say my non-hunting spouse has 20 elk BPs and I have none. We could apply together with PG and draw a 10 point tag. I hunt. She turns in her tag and keeps the BPs. The next year, we could do the same thing, and keep doing it over and over. Yea, the cost for me to hunt is two licenses each year, but I'm hunting a 10+ pt tag every year.Not sure what you mean. A person still can use PG twice to turn in a tag but gets BPs back only for the first time.
No, the way the old PG worked is just as you indicated with the "new regs." It was always a case of losing the points after the 2nd time. So in the 3rd try, both you & wifie would start with 0 points (except HE, loyalty) if you had both drawn the first two times.My understanding of the old system was say my non-hunting spouse has 20 elk BPs and I have none. We could apply together with PG and draw a 10 point tag. I hunt. She turns in her tag and keeps the BPs. The next year, we could do the same thing, and keep doing it over and over. Yea, the cost for me to hunt is two licenses each year, but I'm hunting a 10+ pt tag every year.
If I read the new regs correctly, she can only keep her BPs the first time. After that, she loses them and we start over with zero points. Hence eliminating the perpetual ability to draw a 10+ tag every year.
Again, if I'm reading correctly. I have been known to be wrong in the past.
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