You want economic stimulus? Open up ANWR.

202typical

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The Other Stimulus
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INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Posted 1/22/2008

Economy: Credit the Fed for slashing interest rates to keep the economy above water. Better late than never. Further stimulus may come in the form of lower taxes. Now, if we can only break the back of sky-high oil.

Related Topics: Economy | Budget & Tax Policy

Global markets have plunged this week, fearful that the U.S. economy is tumbling into recession and dragging the rest of the world with it. Losses on Monday alone in London, Paris and Frankfurt equaled the combined GDPs of New Zealand, Hungary and Singapore. In the wake of such damage, U.S. futures were pointing to a 500-point drop in the Dow at Tuesday's open in New York ? a 5% haircut.

Seeing all this, the Fed responded, holding its first emergency meeting since the one right after 9/11 and slashing rates three-quarters of a point to 3.5%. It was the biggest cut since October 1984. Well done, though a bit late.

We've been warning for some time that the economy faced growing future dangers from soaring oil prices, the subprime mortgage mess and a credit crunch. Well, if markets are any guide ? and they usually are ? the trouble is here and Fed action is in order. More than interest rate cuts will be needed, however.

Congress, spooked by a faltering economy and its own abysmal approval ratings, has joined with the Fed and President Bush to seek ways to stimulate growth. Both House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid met with the president Tuesday and emerged vowing a "bipartisan" stimulus plan.

But it's plain that Pelosi and Reid are interested mainly in cutting checks for potential voters ? not in the long-term health of the economy. Why else would they propose only short-term aid ? including rebates, extended jobless benefits and increased food stamp aid ? that will just take money from one pocket and put it into the other, but do little to boost actual economic growth?

By contrast, Bush's $150 billion stimulus plan, amounting to 1% of GDP, looks pretty good. Yes, it includes up to $800 in rebates for each taxpayer ? a sop to the Dems. But it would cut taxes on small businesses. And hopefully, it would make Bush's 2003 tax cuts permanent.

Instead of the "timely, targeted and temporary" stimulus Pelosi says her party wants, Congress should sign on to Bush's broader approach. Bush's stimulus will actually provide incentives for people to save, invest and start new businesses. These, in turn, will create jobs, produce new goods and services, and ease inflation pressures.

But, again not surprisingly, Congress is neglecting perhaps the most important stimulus of all: lower oil prices. We have billions of barrels of oil locked underground in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and on the Outer Continental Shelf. We have two trillion barrels of crude in oil sands here and in Canada.

All this supply is enough to keep our economy humming until adequate oil replacements can be found. With prices today nudging $90 a barrel, we're paying roughly $1 billion a day more for crude than we did just two years ago.

This amounts to a tax that the Democrat-led Congress has irresponsibly refused to remove by letting us develop more oil. And the tax falls heaviest on the lower-income Americans that the Democrats profess to represent.

Remember: Our economy, like the rest of the world's, runs on carbon-based energy. Any long-term stimulus must respect that fact. Congress, however, has kept oil supplies tight to wage a phony fight against global warming. This is the height of irresponsibility.

Those in Congress who continue to undermine our economy by blocking every effort to increase energy supplies should be voted out of office. They're as much to blame as the foreign petrotyrants who hold us hostage to high prices knowing that America will not take matters into its own hands.

?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-08 AT 04:37PM (MST)[p]Gee, what happened to the sky is falling..the sky is falling?

5 Trillion dollars gone from the world market in a day, the fed making an unprecedented appearance with 7.5 basis point cut, and George pitching a stimulus package. But my buddy 202 can only resort to quoting nursery books, I mean his novels. I also stated that this is culmination of multiple factors coming together at once....and so

Where are these trillions in oil sands crude in the U.S.? Canada already is our leading oil provider, providing us with 40% of our imported crude at the current market ppb as the middle east. In turn we sell Canada the huge amounts of natural gas it needs to extract crude from the oil sands. Who wrote this article?

The middle east only provides us with 15% of our imported crude. ANWAR is in no means a cure for our longterm petroleum needs.

Whatever happened to the stories of high gas prices coming from a lack of refineries? Oil is global market, as such any destabilizing factor in the region or cutback in production leads speculators to trade oil at higher prices. If the Saudis increased production prices would drop instantly, except for the fact we our at a 100% refinery capacity.

As for the stimulus package, forget the money it's not going to work this time. The last stimulus came at the top of the realty market while people were still sitting on their re-fi cash. That's all gone now! The old theory of "Get'em spending and they will keep spending will not work."

As for tax-cuts for small business, an end to the marriage penalty, and perhaps the destruction or alteration of the AMT. Then hit the oil companies with a profit windfall tax and raise the cap on Social Security to 20 million dollars. I'm all for it.

The Dems will go for the Mortgage/Credit Card Company guised corporate welfare. I'll make you a bet, on the day before the stimulus package is approved take a look at Citicorp Stock Price.

Here's a secret: REBUILD OUR NATION'S SCHOOLS AND INFRASTUCTURE
 
Interesting that an investors site would talk about the short-sightedness of Reid and Pelosi (two people I have no love for) yet in the same piece, write about the short-sighted idea of artificially lowering oil prices.

If anyone thinks opening ANWR will reduce oil prices, they need to pull their head out where the air is fresh. The amount of oil we will get, as a percentage of our daily or annual consumption will be very small.

Much of our oil price is determined by production supply (refineries) more than it is raw product supply. So long as production supply stays as tight as it is, raw product supply will only have a limited affect on prices at the pump.

Since when does making something cheaper for the short-term, via direct or indirect subsidy (the oil and gas industries are some of the most subsidized industries in the Internal Revenue Code) make long-term economic sense?

Subsidy and tax incentive provides artificially low prices, therefore increasing demand beyond what it otherwise would have been, given no interference in the market supply-demand price model.

Subsidy and tax incentive also interfere with alternatives being viable in the market. These alternatives do not have the level of subsidy, therefore, they are less attractive, giving subsidized oil and gas a further competitive advantage.

If no subsidies were provided to either industry, alternative energy supply and consumption would grow, as the efficiency of the market would lead that direction. A true long-term solution.

By reducing prices via subsidies, we increase demand beyond what it should be, creating more pressure to continue to keep prices lower. Eventually, this becomes a bomb we hand off to the next generation.

My concern is not at all related to the environmental affects of drilling in ANWR. Never been there, and probably never will get there.

Why do we feel our economic policies should be so short-sighted as to subsidize an industry that we know has a terminal life, whether measured in years, decades, or a century, due to a finite supply of the resource.

Sooner or later, we will have to foot this bill. Later means our kids foot the bill. Sooner means we get to foot it. Pretty simple.

The same folks who constantly talk about subsidy and tax incentives for oil and gas industry to keep prices lower, are the same ones who have no problem with deficit spending. They would rather our kids and grandkids pay the bill.

This article is the biggest bunch of BS I have read in a long time. Sounds good on the surface. But with an additional two seconds of thought as to what these kind of economic and political policies are doing to our country and our economy in the long-term, this is just another short-term fix, the likes of which the author is whining about.

If he is serious about long-term solutions, he would advocate taking subsidies away from the oil and gas industries.

Would it be painful for a while? Yup.

Would it allows for alternatives to quickly emerge? Yup.

Would it eventually remove us from our dependency on the foreign "petrotyrants?" Yup.

Will deferring these realities helps us or our kids in the long run? Nope.

JMHO.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-08 AT 05:03PM (MST)[p]Come on 202 I'm calling you out, after school, at the baseball diamond.:) Where in our country are we sitting on trillion of barrels of oil sands crude?

Oddly enough I just wrote about this subject too!

I've warned you time and again about cut n pasting without researching what is stated.
 
Well done Bigfin and refreshing please chime in more often!

Overton, I forgot about our 51st state eh. Like maybe we should go get some biers or somethin eh.

C'mon 202 we are still waiting...Google Nope! Yahoo Nope! Faux Newsgroups Nope! Keep searching buddy, maybe it's in our 52nd state the Korean Islands.

Wait, wait, hold on I take the Korean Islands comment back I promised PRO I wasn't going to bring that up anymore...so just disregard that whole Korean Islands thing.

Must be some of that cut-paste-then run like hell technology 202 likes to play with!

It's O.K. I got time.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-08
>AT 05:03 PM (MST)

>
>Come on 202 I'm calling you
>out, after school, at the
>baseball diamond.:) Where in our
>country are we sitting on
>trillion of barrels of oil
>sands crude?
>
>Oddly enough I just wrote about
>this subject too!
>
>I've warned you time and again
>about cut n pasting without
>researching what is stated.

Gull Island.
 
A year or so ago I typed Korean Island instead of Koean pennesula(sp), most likely so I wouldn't butcher the spelling after a long day working in below zero temps like today!;-) ONe of those things where FTW went back on his word. j/k FTW! Like I care. I woould rather err that way than to be obsessed on Bush and blaming all the ills of the world on conservatives. There, I feel much better about my lot in life after having recieved popssible frost bitten fingers today!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
OK Foreskin calm down I merely took a page out of the T final handbook on stiring the pot. LMAO.......Got your panties in a wad right quick now did'nt it.

All's I'm sayin is we need to get off foriegn oil. I like high oil prices cause it makes drilling here in our own country feasable. And yes tree huggers it can be done in an enviromentaly friendly way so shut the hell up. I also beleive we should tap the hell out of the oil shale in Colo. WY. and UT. You lefties would not even be happy if we went back to horse and buggy. You know why? cause you'd complain about too much horse flatulence is killing the Ozone. What yoyu nuts really want is for man not to exist..................well except for yourself of course, right?

Thats what I thought.




?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-08 AT 06:59AM (MST)[p]PRO and FTW

Okay thanks, thought I was going nuts which isn't out of the question.


Ransom
 
202

I agree about drilling here in this country. Mine the tar sands too. Build new nuclear power plants and ship the waste overseas. The lefties love France, send the waste to the same place they do.


Ransom
 
202 you like the high price of crude because it make for more drilling here in the US? you out did yourself on that one. low oil prices are better for everyone except the ragheads and the oil barrons.
 
Hey numbmut if we are drilling here then the rag heads are cut out of the deal. I like American Barons of any kind. I wish I could work hard enough and smart enough to be one...........oh yea I forgot you lefties believe all Barons just won lifes lottery right..........



?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
Ok dumby you said you like the high price of oil, if you mean you like drilling here BECAUSE the price is high that's a different statement. I understand you don't know what you're saying but go back and read what you said.

I have no problem with anyone making money, but the amount of money oil companies are making today isn't going to get me cheering for them.
 
Dude

You can easily become an owner in oil companies. The companies are owned by people, rich people, poorer people, old people, young people, retired people and people not yet retired.
Buy shares in your favorite oil company. Recieve your dividend and then pay your share of tax on the profit (dividend). So what if the corporations don't pay, they aren't people just legal documents. The true owners are the people who own shares and they pay the tax. Join in with them and reap the profits.
A person who owns shares can attend the annual meetings. Share holders can and do drive the direction of the companies. What better way to get your message accross is there? Not buying fuel would be difficult.
Just some thoughts.


Ransom

4798e26c3bcf8f52.jpg
 
202 why do you always apply homo-erotic references to either Dude or myself. Whether it's wanting to watch the 2 of us make out at your house in front of everyone on MM, or your concern with the status of my panties?

Just admit that the article was devoid of any smattering of intelligence and that you wrecklessly posted it without researching it first.

Now that you have made a failed attempt of deflection why don't you simply admit how ignorant "the sky is falling" statement was.

If you read my post about Oil Shale you would know that we are years away from being able to streamline an extraction process.

A simple "O.K." will do just fine :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-08 AT 06:44AM (MST)[p]202,

How do you tap Oil shale? I'm sitting right on top of it and would love to 'tap' it. Sorry bud right now the only feasible technology is to strip mine it, crush it and use the portion of the Colorado river water allocated to California on it. And that costs too much in a number of ways. There are a few companies researching plans to 'microwave' it to loosen the oil up but as has been posted before it would require just about all the electricity being produced in Colorado by coal at the moment. In other words it just isn't feasible.

I'm sure you remember all the money and incentives Reagan dumped on oil companies for oil shale in the early 80's? Right? That's panning out big time for us now isn't it?

It actually worked out well for me though. I bought one of the many houses vacated during the collapse of that debacle in western Colorado for pennies on the dollar.

Cha Ching!

beanman
 
Ransom last yeas Exxon had gross sales of 370 billion and a net profit of 167 billion, that's unreal. now I understand how you're saying buying stock is the way to get in on it and that's true to a point, but most Americans are doing the best they can just to buy fuel let alone buy a few thousand shares to help make up the difference. we are capitolist and what Exxon and the other countries are doing is legal, it's also screwing up our economy. even one of your hero's Bill O'Reilly says what the oil companies are doing is hurting America, he says they should feel obligated to back profits down to an obsene but acceptable figure. this can't go on forever, we're taking oil company profits and adding them to the national debt by way of tax rebates. I don't have the answer to this but it's easy to see if we don't either cut the cost of energy or find ways to get by with less of it our standard of living will drop in this country.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-08 AT 11:45AM (MST)[p]
HD said-

"Ransom last yeas Exxon had gross sales of 370 billion and a net profit of 167 billion, that's unreal."

It is unreal because it is untrue.


Can you post where you got your number of Exxon having a net profit of $167 billion dollars?

Revenue and profits
In 2005, ExxonMobil surpassed Wal-Mart as the world's largest publicly held corporation when measured by revenue, although Wal-Mart remained the largest by number of employees.[38]ExxonMobil's $340 billion revenues in 2005 were a 25.5 percent increase over their 2004 revenues.

In 2006, Wal-Mart recaptured the lead with revenues of $348.7 billion against ExxonMobil's $335.1. ExxonMobil continues to lead the world in both profits ($39.5 billion in 2006), and market value ($410.7 billion).[39]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Mobil

-For the first nine months of 2007, Exxon Mobil reported net income of $28.95 billion, or $5.15 a share, compared with income of $29.25 billion, or $4.86 a share, in the year-ago period. Revenue was up slightly to $287.9 billion from $287.6 billion.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2007-11-01-2791678431_x.htm


If you are going to make your case using statistics at least make sure and make them somewhat plausible. The only company in the world that has ever approached a 50% GROSS profit margin is Microsoft but their NET profit was not as large.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-08 AT 11:48AM (MST)[p]Ya'll guys - hate "Big Oil" - "Big Corporations" - anything that has to do with anyone making money. Spread the wealth until it is Socialism huh?

As was posted last year "Big Banks" made more that oil companies. Yet now there in trouble becasue of shady practices we want to bail them out. Did we bail out Enron??? Talk about a double standard.

Who sets the price for the price for a barrel of oil?????
Who sets the price for a MCF of gas??????
Who sets the price for a gallon of gasoline??????

Hint it is not the evil oil companies - ROFL.

ANWAR is just part of the overall picture - everywhere that currently has no production on it already - some "Enviromental Group" is fighting to keep new drilling - new production out. Pacific Coast, ANWAR, Otero Mesa, HDs, VV, ect, ect. With current technology petro is our energy supply and until someone comes up with a better solution is needs to continue to be. Oil Shale will become part of it - technology will come up with something or someway of extraction. Seen the other day about a new bacteria injeciton that causes more gas to be extracted out of NG wells.

Breakthroughs in Solar, Bio, thermal are going on everyday.

Another misconception some of you have is that drilling decreases the habitat and thus reduces hunting opportunities. Again - I see it - every day - I know hard to believe for some but done correctly it actually enhances habitat which increases numbers of animals. Yet some of you are so brainwashed that I know my words are wasted on you guys. But how many of you want to hunt NW NM for Deer?
 
30Inch,

Good post, you and I are pretty close on opinions. Sometime in the future we will be able to utilize oil shale. Right now it's not economical.

Bail out banks? Hell no.

Drill the energy that we have now that is economical. Go for it.

Invest in new technologies for the future? The future is pretty important so yup.

I am an advocate of building modern nuclear plants to provide our clean electricity.

Beanman
 
I almost forgot, American Agriculture has the potential to be a huge part of our energy future.

Want to stop Terrorism? Quit giving them money. Give it to an American instead who will spend it and invest it in Amercia.

Beanman
 
Dude

I understand your concern is really not for yourself but is for those less fortunate. That said a government solution really won't bring the price down only the free market can do that correctly. The federal governments solution would be a windfall tax on "big oil" profit. Windfall tax would not drop the price but might increase it. It would seem like the government ends up with more tax dollars but do they? Does it really matter which end they tax, corporate or investor? The corporate part is still the investor before the distribution of profit.
Be careful of what you wish for in one business sector because each sector could fall victim at some point including commodities.
I think investor driven pressure is the way to go for those so inclined not the feds.
There is a saying I'd like to quote a portion of.

"When they came for the Jews
I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew;

And when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out".


Ransom
 
Ransom what makes you think I'm losing any sleep over the little guy? while I'd like to pretend I'm that noble my main concern is for myself and high energy prices are hurting our economy no doubt about it.

Nemont, I don't know how to paste stuff so look up Investmentu.com for the article written by Alex Green on March 23rd of last year. he says Exxon had a gross of 369.5 billion for the previous 12 months and a pre tax profit of 164 billion. I may have been off a few quarters on when they reported it but the bottom line is the same. yes that's unreal, and it's real.
 
I don't know where he gets the pre tax profit amount from but he goes on to state that not only is Exxon's profit margin, 10.7% reasonable, it isn't even close to what others are making.

So if you do the math they are not raping and pillaging the American economy. Profits are good and there is no such thing as windfall profits, that is a political expediant used by all politicians to punish those filling an urgent need. We all continue to consume hydrocarbons at an unabated rate therefore we are willing to fork over our money to enjoy our SUV's and boats.


January 26, 2008

Oil Company Profits

The Investment U e-Letter: Issue # 653
March 23, 2007

Oil Company Profits: Just Who Is Gouging Whom?
by Alexander Green, Investment Director, The Oxford Club


The new speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, calls oil company profits "obscene."

And at first blush, many would agree. Over the past 12 months, for example, ExxonMobil has made pre-tax profits of $164 billion on sales of $369.5 billion. That's a lot.

But are big oil company profits bad?

Hardly. Companies exist to maximize profits. Profits are what keep workers employed. They keep companies innovating, creating new products and services. They keep the economy humming and the country strong. And they allow you and I to invest and secure our financial future.

Even the school teacher who plunks some of her retirement account in an S&P 500 Index fund benefits from Exxon's rising share price - which is a direct result of Exxon's rising profits.

Many will argue that there is nothing wrong with an oil company's profits, per se. It's just that Exxon is gouging us at the pump. They're making too much.

But are they? After all, Exxon can't dictate gasoline prices. Markets determine the price of oil. It's supply and demand that sets the price at the pump.

Oil Companies, Profits, and the Courts

Some Americans are skeptical on this point, I know. So I direct them to last year's Supreme Court decision. The court ruled unanimously that oil companies have not been colluding to set prices.

Oil prices are high today because the economies of huge nations like China and India are developing rapidly. More oil is being demanded in the world market and there are few new sources of supply.

Hurricane Katrina destroyed a lot of oil processing capacity around the Gulf of Mexico too, so there has been less oil being processed. When less oil is supplied, gasoline prices rise.

What does the average oil company make today on the sale of a gallon of gas? Ten cents.

The federal tax on gasoline, on the other hand, is nearly twice that. Then there's state gasoline taxes. (If you live in New York, for example, you're paying 68 cents a gallon in taxes.)

If Exxon is gouging us at ten cents a gallon, what exactly is the federal government doing to us at 18.4 cents a gallon?

Who Is Gouging Whom?

After all, Exxon has to compete with other oil companies both here and abroad. It has to spend billions on exploration, billions more on development, and further billions on refining and transportation.

As a result, it's hardly making money hand over fist. Earnings at Exxon rose 9% last year but fell 4% in the fourth quarter, underscoring the challenges of rising costs and lower commodity prices.

And Exxon's profit margins are only 10.7%. Profit margins at Microsoft, on the other hand, are 26%. Perhaps we should pass a windfall profits tax on software companies.

Because that's what Big Oil's opponents really want: a bigger federal gasoline tax. Why? To fund the search for alternative sources of energy, such as ethanol and nanotechnology.

That's a fine sentiment. But will throwing around tens of billions of dollars in federal research grants really create alternative energy sources? If that were the case, shouldn't Uncle Sam give grants to:

Dell? to create more powerful computers?
Boeing? to build faster aircraft?
McDonalds? to make low-fat French fries that taste good?
The federal government doesn't need to do this, of course. These oil companies will continue to make higher quality products at better prices on their own. Why? Because they exist to maximize profits. (Profits, incidentally, that provide much of the tax base for the U.S. government.)

Trust me, we will have alternative energy sources eventually. Many scientists believe that near incredible advances in nanotechnology will allow us to solve all our energy needs with solar power within 20 years.

But it won't be the federal government that solves the problem. It will be the private sector - and its relentless drive for profits.

Good Investing,

Alex
 
I never said I was against energy companies making a profit, if they didn't we wouldn't have any. the problem is why is energy, mainly oil a free market commodity when many food items and even natural gas and electricity are regulated? oil is expensive and it's going to stay expensive but don't tell me we're not getting hosed, record profits every quarter aren't a sign of anything else. here we are defending the oil companies and at the same time adding to national debt in an attempt curb a recession that energy prices are a big part of, if we can't bring the price of oil down or find a replacement for it then it will bring us down.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-08 AT 12:40PM (MST)[p]That article leaves me with more questions than answers Nemont. I'm not quite sure what "expediant" means given the context it's used in.

In the late 80's the oil companies started a systematic program to force independent gas stations out of the market. The lack of real competition and consolidation in the oil industry leaves the consumer with very few choices at the pump.

It is very difficult to prove collusion given the large numbers that are involved with a lack of real competition. Collusion must be proven, as if all the CEO's had written agreements to set market prices. As if! All it takes is a golf outing or a meeting at some opulent getaway and with a wink and nod the game is afoot.

This, compiled with the fact that when the CEO's were gathered 2 years ago at a senate sub-commitee hearing to testify about collusion in the marketplace. The Chairman Sen. Ted Stevens (R) of Alaska in an unprecedented move, refused to swear-in the CEO's in. Sen. Stevens is currently under federal investigation for receiving kickbacks from a well-known energy company in Alaska. I digress

If you track the price of gasoline and Big Oil's responses to the price at the pump the math simply does not add up.

When gas first hit the $3.00 mark the ppb was only $65.00. Given that math gas should be somewhere around the $4.50 a gallon if the ppb is at $90-95.00.

The ppb on imported oil really has little to do with the price at the pump if we are to believe what the oil companies have previously stated.

We do have our own domestic supply of oil and the last I checked there are no market forces to change the oil producer's costs of extraction, refinement, or delivery of that oil. It would be different if the large oil companies were developing and discovering new fields, but this is not the case.

One only needs to look at what happened to California during the supposed energy shortage. Mass manipulation of the market, collusion, and a pro-energy/pro oil Fed screwed California over big time. So, who was at Cheney's energy meeting???????????

I predict that the price of gasoline will drop below $2.00 a gallon within the next 2 years should a democrat administration be voted in.

There, I said it and I'll stand by it!

I forgot one last thing. If you wondered why the gov. has been so slow raise CAFE standards, the answer is simple...they will lose gasoline tax revenues if cars get better gas mileage.
 
I predict a return to the days of Jimmy Carter gas shortages if a democrat gets voted in and raises taxes on the oil companies.

I also predict the average price of a car will rise $6000 to meet the new CAFE standards.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-08 AT 06:03PM (MST)[p]FTW,
First off I only posted the article that hdude referenced. I didn't say anything other then companies that make profits are a good thing.

Also give me one policy that a democrat will pass that will reduce the price of gasoline. How one earth does any president of any party control the price of gas?

I will take that bet with you. The only way for gas to go down to that level again is either a huge and disrupt economic crash where demand goes down everywhere world wide or a building boom in refining capacity through out the world and a similar boom in delivery capacity.

More then likely the price of gas will level off.

So what do you want to bet?

Also didn't the massive fraud, manipulation of the market and electricity shortages happen in California while a Democrat was President?

Chronology[1][2][3]
1996 California begins to loosen controls on its energy market and takes measures to increase competition.
April 1998 Spot market for energy begins operation.
May 2000 Significant energy price rises.
June 14, 2000 Blackouts affect 97,000 customers in San Francisco Bay area during a heat wave.
August 2000 San Diego Gas & Electric Company files a complaint alleging manipulation of the markets.
January 17-18, 2001 Blackouts affect several hundred thousand customers.
January 17, 2001 Governor Davis declares a state of emergency.
March 19-20, 2001 Blackouts affect 1.5 million customers.
April 2001 Pacific Gas & Electric Co. files for bankruptcy.
May 7-8, 2001 Blackouts affect upwards of 167,000 customers.
September 2001 Energy prices normalize.
December 2001 Following the bankruptcy of Enron, it is alleged that energy prices were manipulated by Enron.
February 2002 Federal Energy Regulatory Commission begins investigation of Enron's involvement.
Winter 2002 The Enron Tapes scandal begins to surface

In May of 2000 I believe a democrat was in office and he let Enron manipulate the market for electricity in California.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-08 AT 10:02PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-08 AT 07:54?PM (MST)

I was referencing the 2nd paragraph in thread 27 which I believed to be yours.

Let's see, you start a pre-emptive war in the heart of the middle east, stir up some rhetoric with Iran, and park a couple of carrier strike forces in the Straights of Hormuz.

PASSED AND IMPLEMENTED UNDER A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR! But nice try!

As for SB 1890 it was written by the energy industry in 1996. It was implemented under (R) Gov. Pete Wilson in 1998. A known flawed bill which Gray Davis inherited from the previous administration.

It is not alleged that Enron manipulated energy prices, it is a fact.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/02/BUG79HGQ4R12.DTL

Gosh I wonder what party those lying, defrauding Texans like Kennyboy, Skillings, and Beldon belonged too? Hmmmm

So Beldon admits to lying and manipulation, but it's Gray Davis' fault. A brilliant non-partisan observation. Davis was the target of a political hit-job orchestrated by Deckface, Kennyboy, and the GOP.

All in hopes of bringing Star Power into the GOP with Gov. Arnold, followed by all the ensuing hype of changing the pre-requistes of presidential candidates being born in the U.S. There was only one problem, Arnold won't bend over and be a good little Bushie. I digress...I digress too much

So let me get this straight, Gray Davis called Kenny-Boy and said, "Hey Kennyboy how would you and your buddies that attended Deckface's Energy Taskforce Meeting like to defraud California's deregulated energy markets to the tune of 9 Billion dollars so I can be re-called."

Gray Davis pleaded with FERC to step in 2000 UNDER A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT, oddly enough the FERC along with George and Deckface dragged their feet on the entire issue. I can still remember Deckface grinning in an interview when asked about the outages. Deckface's penguinesque response was that, "Californians should learn to conserve."

Nemont, even my kids teachers won't allow them to use Wikipedia as a reference. Go to your favorite search site and type the following 3 words "Cheney FERC California", then pick your poison.

As for the bet, before I go there I need to make a correction which I believe you will find acceptable. I did state within 2 years, I should have stated within 2 years of entering office. Given your opposing view I think you will find that acceptable.

Now for the wager, it can't be too big or too insignificant. It must be something we could both use, how about a $25.00 Cabela's Gift Certificate or 202's single-wide. Deal?
 
Gray Davis pleaded with FERC to step in 2000 UNDER A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT,

Can you tell me exactly how there was a Republican President in the year 2000?

Wiki or no wiki there is the Fact that GWB was sworn into office on Jan. 20th, 2001.


Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-08 AT 12:34PM (MST)[p]You are correct I should have written 2001.

I have made a horrendous error. This type of error should invalidate my entire statement and knowledge on this entire subject.

2001 UNDER A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT...better now?

http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/06/21/energy/
http://www.thestreet.com/markets/aarontaskfree/1410771.html
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0817-07.htm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/reports/power/20010531-9999_1n31ferc.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/blackout/california/timeline.html

The wiki timeline for San Diego Power filing a lawsuit in August of 2000 over market manipulation is incorrect. The lawsuit was filed against the CPUC, regarding selling power for less than it was being purhcased for.

When San Diego Power filed it's first lawsuit along with Gray Davis regarding possible market manipulaton 12/26/00 there was outgoing Pres. Clinton, and President Elect Bush. However, the fraud and massive manipulation didn't hit the state until after Bush was in office.

Your own wiki timeline shows clearly that the massive fraud, that left California with state wide outages took place after George took office.

That is just such a wierd coincedence to think Ken Lay, CEO of Enron, a giant Bush supporter, a guy who let George use the Enron jet for his campaign would later be charged for defrauding California. What are the chances?
 
As for the bet, before I go there I need to make a correction which I believe you will find acceptable. I did state within 2 years, I should have stated within 2 years of entering office. Given your opposing view I think you will find that acceptable.

Now for the wager, it can't be too big or too insignificant. It must be something we could both use, how about a $25.00 Cabela's Gift Certificate. Well?

Deal or No Deal?
 
So the bet is that if a democrat is elected President that gas will be under $2 a gallon within two years?

I will take that bet.

I am curious why you let off the hook Clinton, who also took massive amounts of money from Ken Lay, yet blame Bush who took office in January of 01?

There is not a dime's worth of difference between the two parties. The oil companies are giving money to Democrats at an almost equal pace as then are giving to the Republicans.

In addition if the President could change the price of gas explain why GWB has not moved to lower it? What is the upside political for the Republican party to have record or near record gas prices?

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-08 AT 08:05PM (MST)[p]Done Deal!

Enron couldn't touch California while the markets were regulated. Court documents are fully available on the net in pdf. format which notes when the "proven in a court of law" corporate malfeasance took place starting after Super Tuesday with the majority taking place well after January 2001 thru mid-2001. Various links are listed for timelines, pbs' being the most informative.

Clinton was weeks away from leaving office before questions ever arose that it appeared the energy market were being manipulated. The matter was handed over to the incoming Administration by the time the FERC even responded.

So why would I blame Clinton? Did Kennyboy give Clinton as much as Bush? Did Clinton use the Enron Corporate Jet for his election campaign? Sending one of 500 checks every 4 years isn't much of a relationship.

If you want Clinton bashing let's talk China and guidance systems or NAFTA or Afghanistan?

I agree, there's is some difference in the amounts but they split the aisles. No doubt about it.

As for why GWB or what GOP upsides? I would only have colorful speculation, follow the money scenarios, compounded with rhetoric, conspiracy theory, indirect associations, and a splash of personal pizzazz.
 
I don't ascribe to conspiracy theories. A vast conspiracy will always unravel because people cannot keep their mouth shut.

So the bet is on. I wonder how the U.S. President will reign in global demand? Like China and India. Unless of course the U.S. Economy enters into a depression. If that is so the price of gas won't make a bit of differene anyway.

Nemont
 
A vast conspiracy will always unravel because people cannot keep their mouth shut....after they get caught. Enron, case in point.

Yes the bet is on. I'd say it's pretty much a slam dunk that you are going to win this bet. :)
 

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