You missed one Bob, HB229 "Founder's Bill"

I wonder if that will effect Founders little business he is running selling hunting info for money.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-17 AT 01:32AM (MST)[p]
Did the guy who wrote this think about it for more than 20 seconds?

"defined by a universal coordinate system"
 
This was bound to happen...WY outfitters seem to be very protective of their businesses and interests, and WY residents as well. There was chatter all over the popular big game forum sites last year so I'm sure word got around and people fussed over the "hunt consultation" practice.
 
"universe" coordinate system: OK, if the game animal is located anywhere on the 3rd rock from the sun, you need a guide license.

Seriously, when I read that the other day, I was wondering if the "author" is talking about UTM (universal tranverse mercator) coordinates or what. I guess he was trying to use a catch-all term for any coordinate system. I think if they would say GPS or map coordinates, it would catch the intent.

The bill passed the 3rd reading in the House & will head to the Senate.


Another interesting bill is one that limits how many commissioners tags can hunt a given area. (i.e. all comm. tags can't hunt the same late Cody area.) Bill passed the Senate and is in the House.

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2017/Introduced/SF0090.pdf

All licenses issued under this subsection shall be
designated to nonprofit charitable organizations. As a condition of accepting the license, the organization shall agree to either auction or otherwise bid the license to the highest bidder or to raffle the license to members of the public. The number of licenses issued under this subsection to be disbursed by auction or bid shall not exceed ten percent (10%) of the total licenses by license type allocated in that year in any given hunt area for the
applicable species and shall be issued on a first come,
first serve basis.
 
>This is the engrossed version with
>amendments. Includes maps...
>
>http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2017/Engross/HB0229.pdf

So the way that reads you can do the consultation service without a license as long as you don't tell the person where the animal is located within 500 meters, LOL! I wonder who actually came up with that BS, as the way I read it all you would have to do is give a general set of coordinates and then tell the guy to go in any given direction more than 500 meters. I'm surprised they just didn't write the Bill to outlaw it unless you actually go with that person as your guide. I smell MOGA all over this one!
 
I'm curious...

I'm out hunting or hiking and find a wallow, waterhole, mineral lick, etc and watch a huge elk. I return to camp and tell my buddy here are the GPS coordinates. How will they know, and how do I know that at the time I gave or even sold the data a game or trophy animal was within 500 meters? Doesn't the bill say "animal" was within 500 meters???????? I don't see where it says an animal shows up within 2 or 3 days.
 
"A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than by a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact."
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-17 AT 02:52PM (MST)[p]


After looking at the amended version, it's essentially "bounty hunting" legislation. Not something widely done in WY but quite popular in UT and AZ. In fact I know of a popular guy in AZ that pays for locations of Bucks and Bulls on a regular basis.

I don't see this preventing someone from selling a "scouting service" package provided they don't include locations of animals.

The key verbage being "specific previously scouted big or trophy game
animals.."

As Bounty Hunting Legislation I like it. Have a minimum fine plus a multiple of the amount charged for the animals location.
 
That's how I read it, I can't provide location of a specific buck, but just my "Get You Started Package" that helps get a guy into a great spot, great camping spot and other important details about the spot, but no details or information about a specific game animal. Anyone I help would just have to trust that I wouldn't put them in a spot that I didn't have 150% confidence in.

Either that or maybe I can offer consulting on what I think are the "best tasting" deer on any mountain. Did you all know, there's a way to know which bucks and bulls taste the best before even putting a bite in your mouth?

"Founder's Bill".....dang! Soon they'll try to outlaw scouting altogether............

PS - What in the heck is "universal coordinate system"?? Google doesn't even know!!!!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Founder,

A "universal coordinate system" shall likely be described in the legislation itself under definitions. Having written some statutes myself, it may to be defined as including any gps, map, navigational device (just about every specific thing), but not limited to those listed herein. (catch all). They will make it as specific as possible in the definitions. If they don't, they have opened a giant loophole to evade the snare of the legislation.

I didn't approve of what you were attempting to do last season, as I saw some real potential for unintended consequences. That being said, if you don't advertise what you are doing, don't leave a paper or digital trail, collect payment in cash, and are careful with who you advise, I would think that proving a violation would be difficult.

just sayin...mh
 
A definition would be real helpful on that term.

I wouldn't break their law. I'll share what I know about a mountain lawfully.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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>I didn't approve of what you
>were attempting to do last
>season, as I saw some
>real potential for unintended consequences.
>That being said, if you
>don't advertise what you are
>doing, don't leave a paper
>or digital trail, collect payment
>in cash, and are careful
>with who you advise, I
>would think that proving a
>violation would be difficult.
>
>just sayin...mh

Interesting MH. I guess along with your ability to write statute, you also possess the know how on breaking the law and getting away with it!

>just saying...jm
 
This bill cracks my s$@t up! Founder and others that make a living off the public wildlife are a cutthroat bunch. I could see this coming a mile away and I didn't need a scouting service to show it to me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-17 AT 12:52PM (MST)[p]IMHO MH was merely showing how poorly written the Bill is with his comments. As an ex LE Investigator I had the exact same thoughts that it would be impossible to enforce when I read how poorly it was written. If you're going to have a law on the books, it should at least have a decent way of being enforced if someone attempts to violate it, and trust me, there will always be those that will do so! The more I think about it, what is the problem with doing what Founder did last year if a person lives 1500 miles away, can't scout ahead of time, but wants to DIY because it's cheaper than an outfitted hunt or he gets more satisfaction than going guided. Outfitters are essentially doing the exact same thing when they scout before the seasons for good animals to put their paying clients on with their guides come hunting season. The only difference in outfitted hunts is the huge amount of money they charge compared to what just scouting information would cost the way Founder was doing. This is what happens now that hunting is an "industry", rather than a cherished pastime like it was when I was a kid growing up.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-17
>AT 12:52?PM (MST)
>
>IMHO MH was merely showing how
>poorly written the Bill is
>with his comments. As
>an ex LE Investigator I
>had the exact same thoughts
>that it would be impossible
>to enforce when I read
>how poorly it was
>written. If you're going
>to have a law on
>the books, it should at
>least have a decent way
>of being enforced if someone
>attempts to violate it, and
>trust me, there will always
>be those that will do
>so! The more I
>think about it, what is
>the problem with doing what
>Founder did last year if
>a person lives 1500 miles
>away, can't scout ahead of
>time, but wants to DIY
>because it's cheaper than an
>outfitted hunt or he gets
>more satisfaction than going guided.
> Outfitters are essentially doing
>the exact same thing when
>they scout before the seasons
>for good animals to put
>their paying clients on with
>their guides come hunting season.
> The only difference in
>outfitted hunts is the huge
>amount of money they charge
>compared to what just scouting
>information would cost the way
>Founder was doing. This
>is what happens now that
>hunting is an "industry", rather
>than a cherished pastime like
>it was when I was
>a kid growing up.

I differ with your opinion in that MH showed how easy it would be to define "universal coordinate system". Regardless, the law would be difficult to enforce, like many laws are. Does that mean we shouldn't have them? Case in point the scouting with aircraft reg; difficult to enforce, but law abiding people are obeying it. The skies were definitely clearer this past hunting season.

As far as Founder, I think if he takes money for 'pimping' wildlife, he should be regulated and have a license, just like an outfitter. That's my opinion.
 
They don't have an outfitters license, they might not file a business tax return and it's dippin into the livelihood of the outfitters. Not saying it's right or wrong, just sayin.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-17 AT 08:32PM (MST)[p]I differ with your opinion in
>that MH showed how easy
>it would be to define
>"universal coordinate system". Regardless, the
>law would be difficult to
>enforce, like many laws are.
>Does that mean we shouldn't
>have them? Case in point
>the scouting with aircraft reg;
>difficult to enforce, but law
>abiding people are obeying it.
>The skies were definitely clearer
>this past hunting season.
>
>As far as Founder, I think
>if he takes money for
>'pimping' wildlife, he should be
>regulated and have a license,
>just like an outfitter. That's
>my opinion.

Jeff, since you are not and have never been in LE it's probably very easy for you to make the comments you do regarding laws and their enforcement. Yes, most laws are designed with the theory that they will keep 99% of the population honest. What happens when that doesn't occur? Just look at the huge percentage of people that violate the highway speeds in our country and I'm not talking about just a few mph over the limit. It essentially limits the LEO to only stopping the really egregious violator while all the rest get away with violating the law. I'm with you regarding your comment that a person doing such as Founder was last season should be required to be licensed as a business with the resultant forms and paperwork to be filed on any profits made. With all the "write offs" they could probably file I doubt that there would be any taxes paid on that profit though. If the current Bill is properly worded in it's final form to be half way enforceable such that a person would need a license to do what Founder was doing, I would be behind it 100% just as you are since most businesses are regulated in some form or another!
 
When every 170 or better buck in the woods has a name and a price tag attached to him then maybe we will have a rule that says the one who finds him and documents it with the fish and game (OOPS see I'm from Idaho) owns ALL of the rights to hunt him. I think TROPHY hunting has gone way out of control. Maybe a few poorly written laws can slow down the TRISTATE only the rich get to hunt. And us that don't pay to hunt can go to Walmart to get our food,not meat, because we will all be forced to be vegans. Just sayin.

DZ
 
NO ONE needs my help in trying to figure out how to break the law. Dig your own hole. Often the legislature gets an idea for a statute to stop some sort of behavior that they or some of their constituents don't like. In this case, that is likely outfitters. They are greedy bunch for the most part with a few exceptions. The follow through is where the legislators run into trouble. It isn't easy to draft an airtight piece of legislation.

Many years ago, I argued a case to the Idaho Supreme Court concerning a statute that had recently been passed. It was a case of first impression for the court and the case bypassed the usual stop in the Court of Appeals. The statute had failed to clearly define the prohibited act and also failed to set forth the burden of proof that was necessary to prove a violation of the act. The Idaho Supreme Court found in my client's favor and filled in some of the gaps.

Selling scouting information for hunting is problematic. I personally would never even consider it. My philosophy is simple, if you want to know where to hunt get out and do the scouting and hunting yourself. I have pointed a few people in the right direction without specifics. That is usually to nonresidents with LE tags that they will likely never be able to draw again. I have never asked for payment to do so. I know folks that would really like to get ahold of my detailed hunting and scouting diaries and maps that I have been compiling for many years. My reasons for not "selling out" are three fold. One, to me it is ethically wrong to sell the information. Second, why would I want to sell my best hunting spots to someone who hasn't put in the time and effort. Third, as I mentioned months ago in another post, if someone used the received information to poach a trophy animal, I could see the person providing that information sitting in jail with the person who actually did the poaching.

Those that enforce Game and Fish laws in Wyoming almost always rely on tips, confessions and loose lips to gain a conviction. I would never count on anyone to not sell another person out if they get caught doing something they shouldn't.

Finally, a good way to stop the behavior would be to include a penalty in the statute for anyone providing or receiving the information to lose their hunting and fishing privileges for 5-10 years. Even with some holes in the enacted statute, who would want to roll the dice to find out. That might give anyone contemplating this a real pause for reflection.

In thinking about this, I remember how many books and maps I have paid for over the years that describe what variety and size of trout exist in a particular stream or lake. They may also describe which stretches of the river or portions of the lake are the most productive. Would this violate a statute? They are selling the book for financial gain.

There is lots to think about. I would rather scout and hunt myself.

just sayin...mh
 
>Better watch it Founder. The
>Monstermuley police are gonna getcha...
>

Gotta be better than the real police, huh Triple?
 
>The real question is who did
>Topgun work for USFS or
>BLM?


Not that it's any of your business or why it would matter, but the answer is neither! After three years in the Army Veterinary Corp back in 68-71 I came back here to MI and was in LE for the Consumer Protection Division of the MI Dept. of Ag for 30+ years before I retired in 2002.
 
I don't like the idea of guys giving out specific info on what tree a buck spends his life under whether money's is involved or not. The top end bucks already have so much going against them, anything that increases the harvest of these bucks will have a long term effect especially in units with high tag numbers. I could see this type of business gaining momentum with guys who currently provide this type of service and more people in the future providing the same type of service. That being said it seems very hard to regulate, with many loopholes. As far as jumping on "Founders" case, I think that's a little out of line. He saw a easy opportunity to make some extra money doing what he is going to do anyway, can't blame a guy for doing that. Lots of "trophy hunters" out there that want to prove to everyone that they are a hunting bad ass, society, ego's social media all help drive this. Most guys want a giant Muley but few will do it on there own true DIY. Most giants will be paid for in one way or another. This fact drives me, and a lot of the reason I hunt is for the self accomplishment that comes from the success of a DIY hunt from planning, scouting, and hunting. Example from last year one of my friends had pictures and was seeing a monster 220"+ type buck on a regular basis in a easy draw general unit that i had archery, muzzleloader, and rifle tags for. I spent over 20 days scouting last year in that unit, but never stepped foot in the canyon that buck was living in because I didn't locate him myself and wouldn't have checked that area otherwise. Not writing this to pump out my chest, just doesn't turn my gears hunting a buck someone else found. Like I said that's a big part of the whole experience for me. Like many I dream of 200 inchers everyday, and hopefully someday I can achieve that goal, but it's not going to come from the work and knowledge of others, it will be my skills that help me get it done, and hopefully a little luck! All that being said different strokes for different folks, but I'm not in favor of giving out specifics. Areas are one thing, but pinpoint directions are a whole new ball game.
 
>Security guard.

Smart ass, LOL! In fact, my position had more powers that a MI State Trooper and the Investigator classification I held also paid a lot more than they made as well!
 
20 years ago a guy could ask a landowner for permission to hunt and usually was granted that request. 10 years ago you could still hunt there, but a trespass fee was now required to hunt the same place. Now, you can't hunt there unless you book a hunt with the outfitter that leases the property. Does anyone see the progression of things here???

Finder's fees, scouting packages, blah blah blah.

Who pays? The guys that have money pay. Anyone who thinks you save money by hunting for your meat has their proverbial head in the sand( or somewhere else). Hunting is a rich man's sport. If you don't believe that, check this post 10 years from now.

Why does everyone feel the need to profit off our wildlife? I don't know; you'd have to ask them, but the "G" word comes to mind.

Ultimately, we all will end up paying. But not nearly as much as our wildlife...
 
>20 years ago a guy could
>ask a landowner for permission
>to hunt and usually was
>granted that request. 10 years
>ago you could still hunt
>there, but a trespass fee
>was now required to hunt
>the same place. Now, you
>can't hunt there unless you
>book a hunt with the
>outfitter that leases the property.
>Does anyone see the progression
>of things here???
>
>Finder's fees, scouting packages, blah blah
>blah.
>
>Who pays? The guys that have
>money pay. Anyone who thinks
>you save money by hunting
>for your meat has their
>proverbial head in the sand(
>or somewhere else). Hunting is
>a rich man's sport. If
>you don't believe that, check
>this post 10 years from
>now.
>
>Why does everyone feel the need
>to profit off our wildlife?
>I don't know; you'd have
>to ask them, but the
>"G" word comes to mind.
>
>
>Ultimately, we all will end up
>paying. But not nearly as
>much as our wildlife...


You hit the nail on the head with that post pardner, as I have seen what I feel is a very negative progression regarding hunting in my 6 decades and it ain't getting any better any time soon IMHO!
 
There's no doubt a lot of pressure is put on trophy game, but what I think is silly is how a politician puts so much effort into getting a law passed to stop someone from sharing personal knowledge of a fact. If someone wants to pay me to tell them how many squirrels and what kind I saw and where I saw them on the mountain, I should have the right to do so from my chair in my house. I don't do any business outside my home. I scout for myself and gain knowledge as I do so. I should be able to share my knowledge.

With that said, I understand the pressures on trophy game, but there are SO MANY other things that affect trophy game that are far more impactful than me sharing what's in a couple brain cells in my head.

Heck, we've got guns killing stuff at a 1000 yards, optics to spot game at 3 miles, a 40 day season in Wyoming!!!, and this is what political effort is put into? Oh did I mention, 40 day season in Wyoming!!!! Gee, yes, stopping me from sharing some personal knowledge will sure change things.

I truly do understand why some of you have the opinion you do, I just have a different point of view. What I was doing is not "guiding" at all. Not even close to the definition that Wyoming has for a hunting guide.

That's my rant.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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So I guess you will have tie them up so them don't move pass that 500 ft mark. LOL
Did anyone of those super smart guys really think putting in a 500 ft deal would work with animals that move around as to eat and drink water. WOW.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
>So I guess you will have
>tie them up so them
>don't move pass that 500
>ft mark. LOL
>Did anyone of those super smart
>guys really think putting in
>a 500 ft deal would
>work with animals that move
>around as to eat and
> drink water. WOW.


The Bill says 500 meters, not 500 feet, and it won't stop Founder from doing what he's doing if he decides to continue what he was offering last year. It will, however, require that he be licensed if the Bill passes and he wants to give the exact coordinates of a particular buck that he has spotted. Otherwise, if he doesn't want to be licensed he wouldn't be able to pinpoint an animal the way the Bill appears to be written.
 
At some point we need to look in the mirror and ask, just how the hell is camping on an animal 24/7, then selling that info to the highest bidder going to help hunting in general. Or even keep it on an even keel.

Along those lines, an Outfitter with 400 cameras in unit 1 AZ needs to be asked the same question.

And people wonder why "it isn't like it used to be".
 
This is nothing more than government overreach. I wouldn't have thought a conservative state like WY would come up with something like this. Seems more like a California thing.


"Go hunt for meat at Walmart."
 
>At some point we need to
>look in the mirror and
>ask, just how the hell
>is camping on an animal
>24/7, then selling that info
>to the highest bidder going
>to help hunting in general.
>Or even keep it on
>an even keel.
>
>Along those lines, an Outfitter with
>400 cameras in unit 1
>AZ needs to be asked
>the same question.
>
>And people wonder why "it isn't
>like it used to be".
>
+1 Nailed it! We continue to crap on the heritage we love. But hey, scouters got to eat too
 
This is a good debate....my two cents on the issue are that I support the legislation. Agree it would be difficult to enforce, but a step in the right direction.

I don't believe Founder has done anything wrong or unethical, just captured an opportunity to make a little cash to support his hobby. Can't fault a guy for that...and probably have a little bias wishing I had thought of it myself.

That said what is the right thing to do going forward? Commercialization of "trophy" hunting has, in my opinion slowly been taking away opportunity from the average American citizen. Who "owns" the wildlife? For most states, it belongs to the people of that state. Outfitting and guiding services have been around for decades as a controlled way to help sponsor tourism to the state in a way it benefits the citizens of that state and the wildlife. Areas are controlled, permitted, and setup such that there are some protections in place for the consumer and the people of that state.

Bring on technology...we share our photos, share our trips, easily research draw odds, and hunter success. Several have developed a system that centralized public records data and made it an easy one stop research shop. In that scenario, they creatively found a way to make money off hunters by making it easy to get information that all of us have access to if we take the time to go get it on our own, for free.

Technology continues to improve and we have drones, easy access to very accurate positioning, pocket cameras that take 35mm quality photos electronically , and an internet market place. Enter in Founders creative idea. A guy with time, resources and the know how to capitalize on a new concept...find the trophy's and start selling off the locations. (I'm not accusing Founder of taking advantage of people, so let's assume he is made of the highest ethical standard). As time goes on unregulated, more people will take on the concept, no controls in place to protect the consumer, no controls in place to regulate the area to be guided...now taking away opportunities from the people who "own" the wildlife... no large financial impacts to the citizens of that state. Now negative impacts start happening to the general public and infringements take place. As the industry grows, the game animals start to suffer as every "trophy" animal has a wanted posted with a bounty on its head. More negative impact.

All in all...kudos to the sponsors of the bill for protecting the general public and wildlife before this turns into a problem!
 
"Founders Bill" got slaughtered in the senate. Didn't pass. I'm surprised, I thought it was a slam dunk. I was already building my plan around it.
A lot Senators saw something they didn't like.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Looks like MOGA has lost a lot of clout over the last few years since they were backing that Bill and the 60/40 flip flop tag allocation that also went down! I'll bet old Sy is pissed, LOL!
 
I just listened the Senate committee vote on this. One Senator had concerns that it violated my first amendment rights, another had concerns that it's not "fair chase", and another had concerns that he'd be guilty cause he shares with other people where he's seen antelope and they buy lunch or coffee.

The one issue I had was with the fair chase comment and I want to get some letters out to these guys about that.
When I tell someone where a deer is, that's no guarantee they'll kill that buck. I know this all too well, as for the past 4 years in a row I have hunted specific big bucks for 7-19 days each year, and didn't kill any of them. So even when you know where one lives, it ain't easy. It's still really, really hard. One of the Senators stated that these bucks live within 500-1000 meters of where they were seen in the summer. That was another very wrong statement. Sometimes they're found during the hunt close to where one sees them in the summer, and they may have a small home range, but it ain't that small. It's more like 1-1/2 - 2 square miles, with much of it being thick timber.
And above all else, if me share a location isn't fair chase and that's their issue, then they need to be passing a law to stop all guiding. My clients go do it on their own, with backpacks, little tents and freeze dried food, often times backpacking 4-5 miles in or packing with horses in a couple of cases. One client hunted 7 days before killing the big one. Fair chase shouldn't even be mentioned. It's very, very much fair chase. Far more far than most hunting.

I need to write letters explaining these things, cause obviously they don't have a lot of experience hunting high country public land old trophy bucks who know how to play the game pretty well.

It sounds like they want to get some control over it, but I don't think transferring it to the outfitters as a new revenue stream is the way to go. Nothing against outfitters at all, I just don't think what I do is even close to what a guide does. We might both deal with deer, that's it. But carpet installers and tile layers both deal with floors, but what they do and offer is far different.

Brian Latturner
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Something to think about Founder; carpet and tile installers both need a business permit and both have to pay taxes on what they earn.
 
I have a business permit and believe me, I pay my fair share of taxes on my income.

Brian Latturner
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LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-17 AT 01:57PM (MST)[p]>Haters gonna hate founder!
>
>Keep on keepin on!

+1

Hired a carpet installer off Menards board before Christmas to do some carpet work. When it came time to pay the bill, he offered me a discount if I paid him cash instead of a check. Gee, I wonder why...
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-17
>AT 01:57?PM (MST)
>
>>Haters gonna hate founder!
>>
>>Keep on keepin on!
>
>+1
>
>Hired a carpet installer off Menards
>board before Christmas to do
>some carpet work. When
>it came time to pay
>the bill, he offered me
>a discount if I paid
>him cash instead of a
>check. Gee, I wonder
>why...

Well triplebb what did you do?
 

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