X zone recap

[Calbuck]

Well, our x zone hunt was awful. No other way to put it. The company, experience and time spent was well worth it, but from a pure hunting standpoint, IT SUCKED! We hunted our asses off, hiking, glassing, changing areas, repeat. We turned up one shooter buck that we couldn’t get a shot on…22-24” tall buck. Sad to cover so much great looking (and proven in the past) country and not even see small bucks..I’m seriously questioning CA Fish And Wildlife policies, and honestly started wondering if I shot a buck, let alone my dad and son, would we be sealing the fate of the deer in our area? It was bad.
Today was the last day of season, and my son went with his friend out this morning..by George, he found and shot a small 3x3 to fill his tag..extremely happy and grateful that he was able to harvest! But, beyond that, wondering what the future of deer hunting in our “Premium” zones holds??

 

[Snoopdogg]

Yikes! Not good.

 

[brdhuntr]

Lions like deer, soon more lions than deer!!

 

[muleyczy]

I’m fairly certain California doesn’t manage their deer.

 

[Moe]

Not all X zones are created equal.None of em are stellar. Still a few big bucks out there.

 

[Calbuck]

Not all X zones are created equal.None of em are stellar. Still a few big bucks out there.

I agree. It’s getting tougher to turn one up that’s for sure!

 

[larrbo]

I have hunted on a private piece of land up there for the past 13 years. My estimation is that the deer population is only about 15% of what it was 15 years ago. We used to pass 24-25" bucks in the past and now we're lucky to see a 22" buck every season. I'm seeing some bucks this season but nothing worth shooting. I have mountain lions on the game cams every year too.

 

[Rie bread]

But, beyond that, wondering what the future of deer hunting in our “Premium” zones holds??

to me it’s almost never made sense to hold out for a “premium” zone in California except for maybe the late season migration hunts. to wait years for a slightly higher harvest chance, at what would be in any general unit an above average deer just doesn’t make sense.

lions needs to be hunted or California needs to stop issuing 90k A zone and 33k D zone tags how enter many B zones and make X zones an actule limited draw hunting experience. I mean 12k tags for the other D zone is ridiculous.

 

[Rie bread]

Also they need to do away with the second tags. Sure you want another one do archery only. If you put in for an x zone and don’t draw that’s it, no second chances

 

[Wiszard]

Deer numbers will always decline until lions start dying from starvation....

 

[Duckdon83]

I was quite surprised as well. My experience was similar on total number of deer seen. We however did not hunt as many days as others had but hiking multiple miles in different terrain and seeing zero deer was disheartening. I shot a buck back in 2017 in the same area and had seen 4 smaller bucks and 20-30 does in about 5 days of hunting before shooting my buck. This year we hunted about 4 total days and had only seen 3 does and 1 buck that my brother shot. Feels like we just got lucky to find a shooter... Seems like quantity and quality have taken a major hit.

 

[Sparks Shooter]

Had a group of friends hunt an X zone that they have hunted for over 40 years. They are all retired and hunted the entire season. They saw 6 total bucks with 2 bigger than 2 point. None over 20”.

Maybe they are past their prime but it seems strange. They had no problem killing solid bucks 6 years ago when they had the tag last. ?‍—-SS

 

[muleyczy]

Also they need to do away with the second tags. Sure you want another one do archery only. If you put in for an x zone and don’t draw that’s it, no second chances

I don’t see California ever changing the second tag option, mostly due to money, not just the tag sale itself, but Pitman Robertson money. Heck, California won’t even change to allow a second bear tag, even though theres an abundance of bears and I don’t believe they’ve met their harvest quota since eliminating the use of hounds. Long short of it is California could care less about hunting and game management. Why anyone would wait decades to hunt California is beyond me. Gooddale for example is the most overrate disappointing hunt out there but yet there’s people lined up and always will be.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Well, our x zone hunt was awful. No other way to put it. The company, experience and time spent was well worth it, but from a pure hunting standpoint, IT SUCKED! We hunted our asses off, hiking, glassing, changing areas, repeat. We turned up one shooter buck that we couldn’t get a shot on…22-24” tall buck. Sad to cover so much great looking (and proven in the past) country and not even see small bucks..I’m seriously questioning CA Fish And Wildlife policies, and honestly started wondering if I shot a buck, let alone my dad and son, would we be sealing the fate of the deer in our area? It was bad.
Today was the last day of season, and my son went with his friend out this morning..by George, he found and shot a small 3x3 to fill his tag..extremely happy and grateful that he was able to harvest! But, beyond that, wondering what the future of deer hunting in our “Premium” zones holds??

So you couldn't turn up any good bucks but you guys shot a small 3x3? Gotcha.

 

[Rie bread]

I don’t see California ever changing the second tag option, mostly due to money, not just the tag sale itself, but Pitman Robertson money. Heck, California won’t even change to allow a second bear tag, even though theres an abundance of bears and I don’t believe they’ve met their harvest quota since eliminating the use of hounds. Long short of it is California could care less about hunting and game management. Why anyone would wait decades to hunt California is beyond me. Gooddale for example is the most overrate disappointing hunt out there but yet there’s people lined up and always will be.

Seems like the state mistakes making money as game management. There’s a handful of tags I’d love to draw even as a non resident now but damn I could just go hunt any general unit in MT and have a better chance at a similar buck. It’s mainly the terrain and location of the hunts.

Talking to my friends hunting up and down the X zones sounds like it’s slim pickings. Ima throw a wild guess they are up high eating on the green by the snow melt, which can be pretty far from the truck.

 

[heywouldya]

Deer numbers will always decline until lions start dying from starvation....

or lead poisoning

 

[eshunt]

or lead poisoning

In CA its copper poisoning...

 

[Wiszard]

I don’t see California ever changing the second tag option, mostly due to money, not just the tag sale itself, but Pitman Robertson money. Heck, California won’t even change to allow a second bear tag, even though theres an abundance of bears and I don’t believe they’ve met their harvest quota since eliminating the use of hounds. Long short of it is California could care less about hunting and game management. Why anyone would wait decades to hunt California is beyond me. Gooddale for example is the most overrate disappointing hunt out there but yet there’s people lined up and always will be.

Goodale and Round Valley are really the only hunts in Cali where you'll have the best chance at seeing LOTS of deer.....regardless of quality, you'll see bucks with the hopes of one of those giant 150" California deer. I'm hoping to have one quartered and loaded on my Metcalf by December 12th. Fingers crossed.....

My plan was to now build a few points and try to hunt X12 every 5 years but that doesn't sound too promising anymore. California is a weak deer state to say the least.

 

[Calbuck]

So you couldn't turn up any good bucks but you guys shot a small 3x3? Gotcha.

Yes my son did is that a problem? Like I said, it makes you feel bad to even take one when there seems to be so few. My son has only been able to hunt for a few years and he was complete within his right to take a legal deer.

 

[Rie bread]

Goodale and Round Valley are really the only hunts in Cali where you'll have the best chance at seeing LOTS of deer.....regardless of quality, you'll see bucks with the hopes of one of those giant 150" California deer. I'm hoping to have one quartered and loaded on my Metcalf by December 12th. Fingers crossed.....

My plan was to now build a few points and try to hunt X12 every 5 years but that doesn't sound too promising anymore. California is a weak deer state to say the least.

If you draw x12 shoot me a pm, defiantly one of the two x zones I’d hunt in california. Also good luck on the goodale hunt.

 

[elkobsessed55]

i remember hunting 7b a few years back
man it was hard to turn up a buck

 

[Mallardsx2]

Yes my son did is that a problem? Like I said, it makes you feel bad to even take one when there seems to be so few. My son has only been able to hunt for a few years and he was complete within his right to take a legal deer.

I have the legal right to shoot 10 does and 2 bucks in my state. That doesn't mean I need to fill those tags when I recognize there is a problem.

If I did recognize a problem I sure as hell wouldn't shoot a deer, then come on the internet and complain like a freaking hypocrite about things. I mean you literally come online to complain about a certain zone and how the hunting SUCKED. Then blab about shooting a small buck. I just don't get people like you.

You arnt from Utah by chance are you?

 

[Rie bread]

I have the right to shoot 10 does and 2 bucks in my state. That doesn't mean I need to fill those tags when I recognize there is a problem.

If I did recognize a problem I sure as hell wouldn't shoot a deer, then come on the internet and complain like a freaking hypocrite about things.

I gathered it as more of a psa than anything.

My point is that in an x zone you have a slightly better chance at a 3x3 then a general unit of which is why most of them I have zero interest in

 

[Wiszard]

I have the legal right to shoot 10 does and 2 bucks in my state. That doesn't mean I need to fill those tags when I recognize there is a problem.

If I did recognize a problem I sure as hell wouldn't shoot a deer, then come on the internet and complain like a freaking hypocrite about things. I mean you literally come online to complain about a certain zone and how the hunting SUCKED. Then blab about shooting a small buck. I just don't get people like you.

You arnt from Utah by chance are you?

I promote a youth to fill any and every tag they can to ensure a lifetime of WANTING to hunt and be successful. That does more for bringing in funds in EVERY state that youth will eventually hunt in. More money=more management opportunities for those states that are smart enough to see they need a better management plan.
Who the hell needs to shoot 12 deer a year? Obviously, your state has too many deer. I'd kill what you need and only what you'll use.

 

[Calbuck]

I have the legal right to shoot 10 does and 2 bucks in my state. That doesn't mean I need to fill those tags when I recognize there is a problem.

If I did recognize a problem I sure as hell wouldn't shoot a deer, then come on the internet and complain like a freaking hypocrite about things. I mean you literally come online to complain about a certain zone and how the hunting SUCKED. Then blab about shooting a small buck. I just don't get people like you.

You arnt from Utah by chance are you?

Nope not from Utah. We had three tags to fill and would have if we had the chance, however my dad and I were not going to shoot little bucks. And clearly if you can fill so many tags and choose not to then good for you. We literally had ONE deer tag this year..your view seems to be very narrow. You remind me if one of those people who is a 1 upper and know it all. Move along if you don’t understand/like what I had to say.

 

[muleyczy]

Goodale and Round Valley are really the only hunts in Cali where you'll have the best chance at seeing LOTS of deer.....regardless of quality, you'll see bucks with the hopes of one of those giant 150" California deer. I'm hoping to have one quartered and loaded on my Metcalf by December 12th. Fingers crossed.....

My plan was to now build a few points and try to hunt X12 every 5 years but that doesn't sound too promising anymore. California is a weak deer state to say the least.

very true with Goodale, you certainly will see lots of deer. You might have to wait just a bit more than five years though, X12 takes 7-8 points, 9 to guarantee a tag nowadays. Imo hard to swallow waiting that long. There’s other X units out there that take half that, or just a couple less. Good luck on your Goodale hunt, it is fun no doubt!

 

[Calbuck]

Seems like the state mistakes making money as game management. There’s a handful of tags I’d love to draw even as a non resident now but damn I could just go hunt any general unit in MT and have a better chance at a similar buck. It’s mainly the terrain and location of the hunts.

Talking to my friends hunting up and down the X zones sounds like it’s slim pickings. Ima throw a wild guess they are up high eating on the green by the snow melt, which can be pretty far from the truck.

We hit some of the highest (and lowest) country in our unit. Got out and walked thru some of the best looking country, to which there was very little to no sign of deer being in those areas. I’m experienced enough to recognize good bedding and feeding areas..we had a couple big fires in the last few years and that’s where the very small amount of deer we saw were located (predictably). We saw a couple spikes and yearling forked horns but that’s not what we were after. Just based on past experience, the herds seem to be diminished greatly. Sad to see.

 

[Moe]

10 does and 2 bucks. Please shoot those Georgia does! They are eating all the corn we put on the ground for the bucks.

 

[Rie bread]

We hit some of the highest (and lowest) country in our unit. Got out and walked thru some of the best looking country, to which there was very little to no sign of deer being in those areas. I’m experienced enough to recognize good bedding and feeding areas..we had a couple big fires in the last few years and that’s where the very small amount of deer we saw were located (predictably). We saw a couple spikes and yearling forked horns but that’s not what we were after. Just based on past experience, the herds seem to be diminished greatly. Sad to see.

We’re you hunting the more northern X zones?

 

[Skykarp]

Cal sorry for your tough hunt.

after spending the last few years helping in some top end x zones I’ve come to this conclusion.

1. Deer numbers have been ok in them, nothing to write home about but definitely “premium” for California.

2. Hunters need to get their expectations on par with what is available. Our premium zones would be bottom end zones in most of the other western states . The I spent x points so I should be able to shoot y mentality will ruin your hunt before it starts.

3. I am calling no one out with this one. The effort most put out in these zones does not put them in a good place to kill an ok buck. This just doesn’t mean hiking but all aspects of the hunt. We ran into a pair of hunter two years ago that said they hadn’t seen a deer in 3 days after we had seen 15-20 bucks and 100 + deer and pointed out 6 on the hill 1500 yards away. We ran into very few hunters that had a decent idea of the area or had even scouted. They just applied because the zone shoots 4 points and the harvest rate was high.

I disagree with the no 2nd tag. A zone is LITTERED with deer if you spend the time. We have the deer to support the opportunity. If a person doesn’t choose to go and take that opportunity that is up to them.

At the end of the day California only offers a premium hunt in the microscope of California not the western 13. Either hunt the other states save points and hunt a better unit or get to know a unit really good and kill the best available deer. Thinking California is going to come up with a management plan that fits the mold is a pipe dream.

 

[Rie bread]

Statistics

80% of the harvests in most general units are deer less than 3 points so maybe mostly deer 3 years or younger?

10% success rates on average in the general units, higher success on the A and B zones which is up in the 20-30% but none of these numbers jump out at me as good.

X zones have a higher success, fewer hunters(less tags), and a far more even spread of points/ age of deer( I’m generalizing age with point, not a great metric but it’s a spit ball guess)

Take D6, made a draw a few years ago for being better than average numbers and look at it now…

And don’t get me wrong I shot plenty of forkies. But when people say there are a lack of deer populations in the state it’s fairly obvious why

 

[bubba]

Unfortunately, the deer herds in California will continue to decline. The growing population of wolves, cats and other predators they have no chance. Increase in populations and Road kill also take part. I hunt in the B zone wilderness and between my Brother and I we never turned up a deer in 6 days, not even a doe. We scratched our heads try to figure out what was going on. We have hunted this area since 2005. On the 5th day in the distance I watched a cat in the area. Maybe this was the reason, I don't know. I hope for the best.

 

[Rie bread]

Nearly 50% of lion kills are stolen by black bears. So that’s a lot of deer kills

 

[bigmoose]

I spent 10 days in deer camp in X6B with my godson and his two boys, his Dad, and another family friend. They all had tags. I was just along to enjoy the hunt. It was a tough hunt with few deer sightings.

They took 4 bucks. Two forkies, a 3 point, and a small 4 point. The youngest boy got his first buck and the oldest got his second, both forkies. I could not be happier for them. My godson held out, looking for a mature buck like the unit had been known for. We never saw one.

I don't have a problem with anyone shooting a legal buck. If you are happy with it then I'm happy especially after waiting 5 or 6 years to get the tag. If there's a problem with the FG giving out too many tags, take it up with them.

Part of the problem is that the wolves have arrived. One of the boys videoed a pack of 8 trying to take down a calf on a ranch. The mother cow stomped one of the wolves pretty good. A lineman for the local power company took this photo of the injured wolf.

We also saw a bear sow and cub and lots of other bear sign. One group of hunters we talked to had seen 4 bears.

 

[bubba]

I seen on social media the other day that California has 4 to 6 wolf packs now in Northern California. With each year it's going to grow. Burn your points all the X zones are going to crumble year by year.

 

[heywouldya]

Nearly 50% of lion kills are stolen by black bears. So that’s a lot of deer kills

Lead poisoning for bears too

 

[Rie bread]

I mean everyone who wants a second tag should have to buy a bear tag with it….

 

[huckleberryhi]

I seen on social media the other day that California has 4 to 6 wolf packs now in Northern California. With each year it's going to grow. Burn your points all the X zones are going to crumble year by year.

If they are stating 4-6, that means 10x, if not more. Coincidence that they have all these National geographic pics of the Pac's?They are playing us and the general public. These retards are ruining all Western states, and we have no defense. Colorado is next to fall, and so on. We need a revolution against these bastards. I am all about balance, but that comes with management. We are not the problem, and they are the enemy. That is how they view us and until we see it the same, we are screwed.

 

[Snoopdogg]

If Colorado continues to allow itself to be California-ized, it will go to hell. It's on a fast track with Polis.

 

[chrisamx]

If Colorado continues to allow itself to be California-ized, it will go to hell. It's on a fast track with Polis.

All the potheads moved to CO and they are easily moved by heart string politics. The only way we can win is to stop the initiative process, or make it more stringent to get a Proposition on ballot. For example; an initiative that protects an animal species would have to have independent scientific review from 3 or more sources. Ultimately, we are outnumbered. The only way is to take their tool away.

 

[Snoopdogg]

"Let's import wolves! How about it guys?"
"Uh, yeah--sure man! Coooool."

Meat heads...

 

[Rich in Hangtown]

I believe as hunters we should manage the predators if the people in charge are as incompetent as California fish and game.

 

[huckleberryhi]

I believe as hunters we should manage the predators if the people in charge are as incompetent as California fish and game.

I believe as hunters we should manage the predators if the people in charge are as incompetent as California fish and game.

I am going to print up SSS shirts and put the proceeds towards some badass legal firm that will go after these fuckers that are presenting these asinine proposals.

Next, I hear the Grizzly is going to be reintroduced into our state.

Also what is up with the republicans wanting to sell off public lands? Am I missing something?

 

[larrbo]

When all the deer are gone the cats and bears will have to eat each other.

 

[Deerdon]

I believe as hunters we should manage the predators if the people in charge are as incompetent as California fish and game.

Other than problem animals, the Fish and Game has absolutely no say regarding the hunting of mountain lions! Your dissatisfaction should be directed at the voters that made lions a protected animal!

 

[Homer]

I am going to print up SSS shirts and put the proceeds towards some badass legal firm that will go after these fuckers that are presenting these asinine proposals.

Next, I hear the Grizzly is going to be reintroduced into our state.

Also what is up with the republicans wanting to sell off public lands? Am I missing something?

you are a leftist plant.....who's paying you?

 

[Rie bread]

Hunt lions and bears or cut tags : /

 

[larrbo]

We all hope things will change and get better in California but I don't see that happening. If you spend some time reading up on the fish and game commissioner's it won't give you many warm and fuzzy feelings. I would like to see the commission expanded to 7 members and 4 would be nominated from fish and wildlife groups like CWA or CDA. Right now we have no members that I feel represent the hunters and fishermen in our state.

 

[muleyczy]

We all hope things will change and get better in California but I don't see that happening. If you spend some time reading up on the fish and game commissioner's it won't give you many warm and fuzzy feelings. I would like to see the commission expanded to 7 members and 4 would be nominated from fish and wildlife groups like CWA or CDA. Right now we have no members that I feel represent the hunters and fishermen in our state.

…California Department of Fish and Wildlife doesn’t themselves represent hunters and anglers. Never has, never will.

 

[huckleberryhi]

you are a leftist plant.....who's paying you?

Bill Gates

 

[huntindad4]

Other than problem animals, the Fish and Game has absolutely no say regarding the hunting of mountain lions! Your dissatisfaction should be directed at the voters that made lions a protected animal!

Voters don't know chit about fish and game issues. It was and is fish and games responsibility to inform the public. They should have before voters caused this problem and definitely should be screaming about it now.

Do you actually think the voters would have or will listen to hunters on this or any issue?

It is absolutely fish and game's fault we are in this. These are exactly the type of things those departments were created for. It's time to hold their feet to the fire on this issue....

For all the good it would do.

 

[Snoopdogg]

Fish and Game won't, unless given permission by Gov. Should they-yes; are they supposed to inform on F&W issues-hell yeah. But F&W director is an appointee and if Gov says, "We're staying out of this," the director will defer. That's the state political system.

By the way, the late father (and state judge) of Newsom was instrumental in passing Prop 117, which outlawed lion hunting in Cali.

It sucks, but it's Cali.

 

[Rich in Hangtown]

As 4 different wardens told me. "SSS"

 

[silverstatehunter]

Was up in X6b 4 years ago and the wolves were bad then too. We talked to a rancher that was telling us that the government spent almost a million dollars trying to track phone records, issue search warrants and matching ballistics to a gun in hopes of finding someone that killed a wolf up there and left it. It was a collared wolf. They ended up searching multiple houses but never found the gun that matched the bullet. I guess every person that had a phone that pinged the tower near the kill site within a week period was brought in for questioning.
Good hard tax payer dollars at work.

 

[chrisamx]

Was up in X6b 4 years ago and the wolves were bad then too. We talked to a rancher that was telling us that the government spent almost a million dollars trying to track phone records, issue search warrants and matching ballistics to a gun in hopes of finding someone that killed a wolf up there and left it. It was a collared wolf. They ended up searching multiple houses but never found the gun that matched the bullet. I guess every person that had a phone that pinged the tower near the kill site within a week period was brought in for questioning.
Good hard tax payer dollars at work.

You'd think it was a capital crime?

 

[Homer]

You'd think it was a capital crime?

Unfortunatly to some….it was.

 

[bullskin]

Deer need brush and acorns, not pine trees. As both private and public land managers eliminate browse species in order to establish pine plantations of commercial value, there is little left for the deer to eat. Meanwhile, fires have reduced bitterbrush on the east side, which will take decades to regrow. Cheat grass and rabbit brush make lousy deer food. With much of the North State burned, hunters should demand that land managers consider wildlife in their revegetation plans. But we are mostly oblivious to the changes that have transpired so slowly over many decades, and so we invariably fall back to the same old bogeymen--the predators. But the fact remains, one cannot grow "large numbers" of lions where there are few deer, and so predators cannot be the root of the problem. Meanwhile, timber interests push for more and larger even aged stands of pine, and apply herbicides to ensure that these remain clear of brush. And deer. If Fish and Game has any power to restore our herds, it will by reprioritizing wildlife management relative to timber production, but who among them wants to be accused of standing in the way of progress and labeled a "lib" by entire communities and the very hunters they hope to support?

As for X zones, their only redeeming characteristic is larger deer. That said, I could shoot a lot of over-the-counter bucks in the time that it takes to draw an X zone, so if hunting and meat are the only goals, then it hardly makes sense to wait. But for me, deer hunting is ALL about the smell of that sage--and so I'll wait another year for my favorite X tag...

 

[huntindad4]

Deer need brush and acorns, not pine trees. As both private and public land managers eliminate browse species in order to establish pine plantations of commercial value, there is little left for the deer to eat. Meanwhile, fires have reduced bitterbrush on the east side, which will take decades to regrow. Cheat grass and rabbit brush make lousy deer food. With much of the North State burned, hunters should demand that land managers consider wildlife in their revegetation plans. But we are mostly oblivious to the changes that have transpired so slowly over many decades, and so we invariably fall back to the same old bogeymen--the predators. But the fact remains, one cannot grow "large numbers" of lions where there are few deer, and so predators cannot be the root of the problem. Meanwhile, timber interests push for more and larger even aged stands of pine, and apply herbicides to ensure that these remain clear of brush. And deer. If Fish and Game has any power to restore our herds, it will by reprioritizing wildlife management relative to timber production, but who among them wants to be accused of standing in the way of progress and labeled a "lib" by entire communities and the very hunters they hope to support?

As for X zones, their only redeeming characteristic is larger deer. That said, I could shoot a lot of over-the-counter bucks in the time that it takes to draw an X zone, so if hunting and meat are the only goals, then it hardly makes sense to wait. But for me, deer hunting is ALL about the smell of that sage--and so I'll wait another year for my favorite X tag...

No offense, although I agree with some of what you're saying, mostly about feed loss for mule deer in that portion i couldnt agree more. From the loss to fire and poor forest management practices to the need of hunters to demand more of our forest managers. I also disagree with a fair share of yiur post.

In the Northern X zones which is the only area I am qualified to discuss, there is a HUGE predator problem. They have plenty to feed on besides and in aggregate to deer. Elk populations are increasing in my experience and there was a collar study on cats a few years back and one large Tom was eating horses. Which is the only good news from the study.

This year when talking to a very prominent Alturas rancher I was informed that Fish and Wildlife hired a trapper to capture and collar a number of cats in a period of MONTHS and he was able to do so in 2 or 3 weeks. I believe the number was 10 or so cats but I've forgotten. That is in Modoc county.County.

I hunted modoc this year (X1) and saw far less deer than the last time I hunted it about 4 years ago. Anecdotal for sure. I also saw far fewer fawns per doe. A retired Warden from the area offered an explanation that fit and one which has been witnessed to effect deer negatively in the B zones by myself and others I hunt with...Bears. They eat the fawns and they eat what the cats kill forcing another kill by the cats.

I have not seen so much bear sign as I saw in X1 this year anywhere else I've ever hunted besides the B zones which are loaded with bears.

We camp annually in X2 (Blue mountain area) and I haven't seen more deer feed on it in 15 years. Deer numbers have ebbed and flowed in that time and seem to be a bit down the last 2 years. Horse numbers are way down but they pulled them off and ended up putting them back, I think in the Big Sage area. So they will likely be back soon.

The Fish and Game managers are "Libs" and it's been made pretty clear. They do not fear being labeled that. It's who they are. The wardens and Bios have no power to change anything.

On the over the counter thing. Yup. Bigger deer in the X zones but why wait. You can collect points AND kill over the counter deer every year.

 

[Calbuck]

I can attest living in and hunting in X4 that the acorn crop was off the hook this year. Plenty and the deer I did see were eating them. If you were to spend some time in central X4 you'd see huge stands of mountain mahogany, sage brush, bitter brush and other forbs..the feed seems to be there, as well as abundant water this year. I have experienced numerous bears getting into my garbage cans (put them inside now) in the past couple years, whereas when I moved up there in 2005 we seldom if ever even saw a bear track. The bears are a huge problem, and many of my aquaintances in the area used to hunt bears with dogs..not so now obviously. The deer in my area seem to live right next to the highway, in my opinion to attempt to stay away from the predators..hence, they end up dead in the road instead.

 

[Rie bread]

Mountains lions don’t care how many points the bucks has or the mass…

 

[BradA]

They need to change it to one tag per individual and your bear tag is good for the fall and if unsuccessful you could take it and hunt bears in the spring. I think that would be a good step in the right direction for deer in California.

 

[Homer]

I would make the deer tag usable on a bear .....like Idaho. I think a fair amount of additional bears would be taken by opportunist deer hunters

 

[bullskin]

No offense, although I agree with some of what you're saying, mostly about feed loss for mule deer in that portion i couldnt agree more. From the loss to fire and poor forest management practices to the need of hunters to demand more of our forest managers. I also disagree with a fair share of yiur post.

In the Northern X zones which is the only area I am qualified to discuss, there is a HUGE predator problem. They have plenty to feed on besides and in aggregate to deer. Elk populations are increasing in my experience and there was a collar study on cats a few years back and one large Tom was eating horses. Which is the only good news from the study.

This year when talking to a very prominent Alturas rancher I was informed that Fish and Wildlife hired a trapper to capture and collar a number of cats in a period of MONTHS and he was able to do so in 2 or 3 weeks. I believe the number was 10 or so cats but I've forgotten. That is in Modoc county.County.

I hunted modoc this year (X1) and saw far less deer than the last time I hunted it about 4 years ago. Anecdotal for sure. I also saw far fewer fawns per doe. A retired Warden from the area offered an explanation that fit and one which has been witnessed to effect deer negatively in the B zones by myself and others I hunt with...Bears. They eat the fawns and they eat what the cats kill forcing another kill by the cats.

I have not seen so much bear sign as I saw in X1 this year anywhere else I've ever hunted besides the B zones which are loaded with bears.

We camp annually in X2 (Blue mountain area) and I haven't seen more deer feed on it in 15 years. Deer numbers have ebbed and flowed in that time and seem to be a bit down the last 2 years. Horse numbers are way down but they pulled them off and ended up putting them back, I think in the Big Sage area. So they will likely be back soon.

The Fish and Game managers are "Libs" and it's been made pretty clear. They do not fear being labeled that. It's who they are. The wardens and Bios have no power to change anything.

On the over the counter thing. Yup. Bigger deer in the X zones but why wait. You can collect points AND kill over the counter deer every year.

While there is no question that we have a lot of bears, lions, etc. I believe these pressures are secondary to the that of poor habitat. Healthy populations depend on high recruitment. Hunters and predators can kill high numbers of animals so long as females continue to deliver plenty of offspring, and this depends on their health and the condition of their habitat. I am seeing a lot more fawns and forkies following a year of good rain and plant growth--and this despite the lions, coyotes and bears. I would wager that the deer kill in C and D zones will be very high this year compared to years past thanks to the condition of the browse and mast crop.

 

[huntindad4]

While there is no question that we have a lot of bears, lions, etc. I believe these pressures are secondary to the that of poor habitat. Healthy populations depend on high recruitment. Hunters and predators can kill high numbers of animals so long as females continue to deliver plenty of offspring, and this depends on their health and the condition of their habitat. I am seeing a lot more fawns and forkies following a year of good rain and plant growth--and this despite the lions, coyotes and bears. I would wager that this deer kill in C and D zones will be very high this year compared to years past thanks to the condition of the browse and mast crop.

True. But. Numbers of prey and predators ebb and flow and although typically they are closely related, they are not always. In other words. A big decade of prey growth tricks the predators numbers into over production.

Hit the prey with drought or bad winter and it's immediately noticeable in die offs. Predators don't typically die off from hard winters, their food does but that typically feeds an overgrown predator population well. I believe it's the same with drought.

The healthy but overgrown population of predators lives on and hits a shrunken prey herd harder and harder until that overgrown predator population finally starves its way back to normal from lack of food. But not before it decimated the prey. I think this is the condition currently in the Northern Xzones.

One year of good habitat helps but it takes more. Hope we get that.

The scary thing to me is that it reflects a future problem for hunters beyond not being able to hunt predators and eventually game because of population loss. I feel that humans as managers will realize that we have to manage all of it. Game animals and predators. Fire and other aspects of habitat such as restricting human encroachment on winter areas.

Or...what will be more likely is we manage none of it. Let it all fall into Ma Nature's hands to create balance.

To try to straddle in between like this, where we continue to manage game animals with hunting and leave predators to manage themselves. Or to pizz every small fire out to create super fire conditions. Or to manage forests only for select timber species. Seems may be a losing battle.

 

[Rie bread]

Here is some data starting with the wet 2016/17 season. Edit: sorry it’s out of order it the years in in the corners

 

[bullskin]

I can attest living in and hunting in X4 that the acorn crop was off the hook this year. Plenty and the deer I did see were eating them. If you were to spend some time in central X4 you'd see huge stands of mountain mahogany, sage brush, bitter brush and other forbs..the feed seems to be there, as well as abundant water this year. I have experienced numerous bears getting into my garbage cans (put them inside now) in the past couple years, whereas when I moved up there in 2005 we seldom if ever even saw a bear track. The bears are a huge problem, and many of my aquaintances in the area used to hunt bears with dogs..not so now obviously. The deer in my area seem to live right next to the highway, in my opinion to attempt to stay away from the predators..hence, they end up dead in the road instead.

True. But. Numbers of prey and predators ebb and flow and although typically they are closely related, they are not always. In other words. A big decade of prey growth tricks the predators numbers into over production.

Hit the prey with drought or bad winter and it's immediately noticeable in die offs. Predators don't typically die off from hard winters, their food does but that typically feeds an overgrown predator population well. I believe it's the same with drought.

The healthy but overgrown population of predators lives on and hits a shrunken prey herd harder and harder until that overgrown predator population finally starves its way back to normal from lack of food. But not before it decimated the prey. I think this is the condition currently in the Northern Xzones.

One year of good habitat helps but it takes more. Hope we get that.

The scary thing to me is that it reflects a future problem for hunters beyond not being able to hunt predators and eventually game because of population loss. I feel that humans as managers will realize that we have to manage all of it. Game animals and predators. Fire and other aspects of habitat such as restricting human encroachment on winter areas.

Or...what will be more likely is we manage none of it. Let it all fall into Ma Nature's hands to create balance.

To try to straddle in between like this, where we continue to manage game animals with hunting and leave predators to manage themselves. Or to pizz every small fire out to create super fire conditions. Or to manage forests only for select timber species. Seems may be a losing battle.

Also agree. It is interesting to note that many of the early settlers in the region reported having to travel fifty miles or more to find huntable populations of deer during the winter--and this was before any form of management, vehicle kill, etc. Predators must certainly have played a critical role.

 

[Homer]

Also agree. It is interesting to note that many of the early settlers in the region reported having to travel fifty miles or more to find huntable populations of deer during the winter--and this was before any form of management, vehicle kill, etc. Predators must certainly have played a critical role.

certainly predators played a huge role....before humans, predators and prey had 100 year cycles of population explosions and crashes......Humans came along and to better the livestock industry...they poisoned, shot, trapped and decimated the predators....leading to an explosion of game animals. The unnatural population numbers that we all call the good old days of hunting history.....NOW...with predators unchecked for many reasons......we're headed back to 100 year cycles....the predators will eventually starve and the game will rebound.......

Not a great way to manage......

 

[Deerdon]

Voters don't know chit about fish and game issues. It was and is fish and games responsibility to inform the public. They should have before voters caused this problem and definitely should be screaming about it now.

Do you actually think the voters would have or will listen to hunters on this or any issue?

It is absolutely fish and game's fault we are in this. These are exactly the type of things those departments were created for. It's time to hold their feet to the fire on this issue....

For all the good it would do.

If you remember, the F&G was indeed against this. The problem was that the anti’s and environmentalists literally flooded the high population areas with commercials advocating for the mandate. I can remember one in particular that pushed the idea as to how few of the cats were left in the wild… and how the population was in trouble. Now the inference was to get those high population areas to this… gosh, there must really be an issue because I have never even seen one. You gotta admit, although deceiving, it was brilliant marketing. I mean… what do you think the outcome would have been if those same voters ( down town LA, San Francisco, San Diego) had been seeing lions? I guess they didn’t put two and two together and realize that part! In short, F&G did lobby against it…. but those pushing the issue are marketing juggernauts!

 

[BradA]

I would make the deer tag usable on a bear .....like Idaho. I think a fair amount of additional bears would be taken by opportunist deer hunters

Great idea in my book

 

[Rie bread]

If you remember, the F&G was indeed against this. The problem was that the anti’s and environmentalists literally flooded the high population areas with commercials advocating for the mandate. I can remember one in particular that pushed the idea as to how few of the cats were left in the wild… and how the population was in trouble. Now the inference was to get those high population areas to this… gosh, there must really be an issue because I have never even seen one. You gotta admit, although deceiving, it was brilliant marketing. I mean… what do you think the outcome would have been if those same voters ( down town LA, San Francisco, San Diego) had been seeing lions? I guess they didn’t put two and two together and realize that part! In short, F&G did lobby against it…. but those pushing the issue are marketing juggernauts!

I dropped a friend off at the San Jose airport and we stopped to get something to eat. 20 cop car blocked a few streets and I figured it was a gang shooting, nope mountain lion in town….

 

[muleyczy]

They need to change it to one tag per individual and your bear tag is good for the fall and if unsuccessful you could take it and hunt bears in the spring. I think that would be a good step in the right direction for deer in California.

California will never open or approve a spring hunt but agrred they should. What I do think they “could” do if they wanted was change the regulations to allow a second bear tag. Only a few guys really kill bears anyways, so allowing those who do would at least be the scales to a small degree.

 

[BradA]

California will never open or approve a spring hunt but agrred they should. What I do think they “could” do if they wanted was change the regulations to allow a second bear tag. Only a few guys really kill bears anyways, so allowing those who do would at least be the scales to a small degree.

I know your right but we can all hope, wish and pray they would

 

[Homer]

There is still a 1700 bear quota......although it hasn't been close to reached since dogs were outlawed......wasn't always reached then....even when dogs were allowed the population was still growing...