Wyoming Resident Deer Survey

[ICMDEER]

Thanks again to everyone who has posted on the other topic about our Wyoming mule deer. I'm always astounded that we have some serious disagreement about what Wyoming residents really like or want for our deer and seasons. First, it seems to me that the Game and Fish has a fiduciary responsibility to know that stuff. And either G&F does not know, or does not care.

So - how about we take the bull (or buck) by the horns and do our own survey? I'll kick in the first $200 to start the survey. UW has a Survey Research Center and they could do the work, or there are several other outfits that could also do it. Let's not delude ourselves, this is going to cost something like $10,000 to $15,000 as a minumum, even relying on statistical analysis so every resident hunter does not have to be surveyed.

Anybody interested? If you're willing to contribute to the survey or know of a funding source or other resources, please pass that information along as well. Again, this survey is for Wyoming residents only. Sorry nonresidents, not this time. (But you are still welcome to contribute if you are curious about the outcome.)

I will say that if I send money, it's not going to be through a G&F fund and the G&F can't be in charge of the survey, nor can any conservation group that presently exists. Just too much divisiveness by doing it that way and we want to ensure the credibility of the report in an unbiased fashion.

What do you think? Anyone interested?

I did a survey on my own of about 100 SE Wyoming ranchers about 5 years ago to see what they thought of mule deer populations and management and the results were somewhere between amazing and very interesting. We could get better info here.

 

[BuzzH]

I'd have to see the questions before-hand and also see how its decided who gets to take the survey.

Surveys are not a bad idea...but there are tons of bad surveys.

Anyone can set up a survey, to lead the people taking the survey, any way they want.

Example:

You could ask in a survey, "Do you want to kill bigger deer in Wyoming"...I bet 90% would say YES!

That could then by used by people like you, who think the entire state should go LQ, to say, "see, 90% of the people surveyed want bigger deer...lets go LQ".

But, I bet if you asked the same people, "Are you willing to give up general seasons and OTC general tags and take your chances on drawing a LQ tag every 2-10 years, to get bigger deer"...you wouldnt get the same answer.

I'm all about getting the pulse of what the residents want...but I dont like that many times hunters are driven a certain direction by surveys and lead right over the cliff like lemmings.

 

[TOPGUN]

Good comments BuzzH because most surveys seem to be done exactly as you stated in order to get the results that the surveyor wants to come up with. If it's done properly, even as a NR, I would chip in $50 to help out. I think what is proposed would need to be done in at least a 2 or 3 step operation with the first step being for a group to get together and have a close to unanimous decision as to what questions would be asked before proceeding with the actual survey itself.

 

[MULEY204]

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE WHAT THE TOP TEN QUESTIONS ARE GOING TO BE.

I AM A NR AS WELL , BUT WOULD BE WILLING TO DONATE IF WE CAN GET THIS ORGANIZED.

 

[SouthernWyo]

I would much rather see the $10 to 15K hit the ground for actual management.

This is not meant to be a slam ICM, but I don't have much faith in unscientific surveys like this. Fortunately, natural resource management is not a democracy. That's a damn good thing when the majority of users can't seem to base thier opinions on sound, proven science. Again, not a slam, and not to sound too elitist, but the vast majority are uninformed at best, and intentionally biased at worst when it comes to natural resource and especially big game wildlife management.

I appreciate and applaud your passion for wildlife, but don't share your disdain and distrust for the WGFD.

 

[ICMDEER]

I forgot that I was dealing with a bunch of suspicious fault finders. I figured we'd work out those details with the people that are qualified to draw up, circulate, complete and analyze the survey. As I previously wrote, I do surveys through my work and I always use pros to draw up the surveys and make certain that the results are scientifically sound and unbiased.

I now understand that there's no way we can get on the same page. Too much suspicion and nobody would ever agree.

I respectfully withdraw my post and offer.

Sorry to start another fault finding post. That was certainly not my intention.

 

[SSakitas]

Wow somebody actually trust the wyoming game and fish dep. If only you have seen what I have seen and heard what I have heard and been told what I have been told by those you have trust for in the wyoming game and fish dep.

 

[440sixpack]

What is the difference between what a resident wants and what a nonresident wants? maybe other than the resident doesn't want any nonresidents.

If that's not all this is about I'd contribute, I think many NR hunters would.





Stay thirsty my friends

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-12 AT 08:58PM (MST)[p]ICM---Other than one very negative post,I thought everyone was trying to offer fairly positive things for you to think about in order to get something started! I do think after having all day to think about it that since the NRs spend so much money to subsidize the F&G that maybe we should be included in the survey, but I wouldn't back out of my offer if we aren't!

 

[BuzzH]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-12 AT 09:20PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-12 AT 09:18?PM (MST)

I think one thing that is obviously overlooked by people like ssakatis, is that the Wyoming game and fish WARDENS are not responsible for making decisions on G&F Management.

For that matter, biologists can only make recommendations to the commission.

The G&F commissions of every Western state is typically a politically appointed bunch. Within those commissions you find, real-estate agents, retired sheriffs, lots of landowners/ranchers, just to name a few. What you dont find is a commission stacked with qualified people trained in wildlife management/biology.

Any State Game and Fish Department can hire the best biologists in the world, but that doesnt mean jack squat if the commission doesnt listen to them.

Largely they dont listen to biologists...I've seen it for as long as I've hunted. The commissioners typically have the interests in mind of those that appointed them and/or their personal interests. In true to form fashion, whats best for wildlife takes a back seat to the needs of ranchers, the needs of outfitters, the needs of local economies, etc.

This should come as no shock when the backgrounds of the commission members are considered.

If some here believe that a G&F commission is going to listen to a survey of resident deer hunters...when they wont even listen to educated and trained professional biologists...they better think again.

Its sad when hunters cant even connect the simplest of dots and recognize the real problem...

More sad the Biologists and Wardens take the mis-guided brunt of it.

 

[piper]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-12 AT 10:40PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-12 AT 10:38?PM (MST)

Getting the game and fish to cut enough hunting pressure in Wyoming to make a difference will be a long long fight. For one thing there aren't any biologists or wardens in the Pinedale area that were around when the hunting was good in Wyoming, they don't realize whats gone because they never experenced it, and I bet the rest of the state is the same way. In the jan 20th issue of the Pinedale paper there was a guest editorial by Dale Gillespie of Rock Springs, he did a good job of telling it like it is when it comes to deer management. In there he states that in 1988 the WGF had 330 employees of which 72 were biologists, they now the employ over 200 biologists alone. He states that "the WGF has become a huge bureaucracy, a complicated unwieldly system that has come to be efficient at perpetrating itself, expert at defending itself, and not very good at doing the thing it was created to do". I agree, and this, his last paragraph gives some good advice on what to do. "Write a letter to the governer and tell him you want changes to restore our wildlife herds. He is the head of the Wyoming Game and Fish Department and the only one that can make the changes needed. If they don't change the Wyoming Game and Fish Department, it will take decades if ever to bring back the deer"

 

[TOPGUN]

I think those last two posts are indicative of the way it is in a lot more states than just Wyoming and really tell it like it is! Politics rears it's ugly head!!!

 

[SouthernWyo]

ICM, sorry you took my post as "fault-finding". Just stating my opinion, I guess that unless it falls in line with what you want to hear, it will be considered "very negative." I had a feeling that I would probably ruffle some feathers and struggled with wording my post so it wouldn't come off negative, guess I failed.

Anyway, like I said, I appreciate your passion for wildlife.

 

[SSakitas]

BUZZH what i was referring to has nothing to do with wildlife managment just the corruption I have seen with some wyoming game wardens. I realize the wardens are not the ones that manage the deer but I dont like getting lied to my face and belittled by them.

 

[BuzzH]

My experience with the WYG&F wardens and biologists is exactly 180 degrees from yours...

 

[SSakitas]

Start standing up to there Bullshitz and looking for shed antlers and your opinion of them will change in a hurry. I have had things said and done to me by wyoming game wardens that would make your toes curl. I now carry a tape recorder with me and turn it on everytime I talk to a warden. If I would have done this years ago one game warden in paticular would have been fired for what he said and done to me on numerous occasions.

 

[BuzzH]

I look for sheds quite a bit, and have talked to a warden while shed hunting.

No problems.

Maybe you're the common denominator "on numerous occasions".

In particular if you're chewing their a$$ for things they have no control over.

 

[TOPGUN]

+1 BuzzH! Anybody that says he has problems with the Game Wardens, rather than a Game Warden, is definitely the common denominator!!!

 

[SSakitas]

Or maybe its that they all work together and communicate and when one gets a bug up his a$$ about someone because that someone refused to be threatened by him the rest follow. Forther more how can you sit here and say that they have no control over managing our deer. Fralic(biologist) did nothing but argue with me at last years wyoming range deer meetings No matter what I said because the first thing I brought up was miss management by the wyoming game and fish and it pissed him off. He sat at the meetings I was at and refused to admitt to me that there was any problem with the poor deer herds other than poor habitat. You explain to me how its not in there control when you have biologist that refuse to admitt there piss poor management got us to this point with our deer herds.

 

[TOPGUN]

SS---That last post of yours is all I need to know why people would not take kindly to you and your mouth! Read your last post and honestly tell us that if you were the person that got talked to like you just stated you talked to them that you wouldn't have a bug up your azz from that day forward and wouldn't pass it on to your compadres. Geez Louise, I can't believe you made that post and then wonder why you're not on their best on the block list, LOL!

 

[SSakitas]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-12 AT 07:24PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN I dont think you get at all. I was the one threatened by a game warden not me threatening him. I did nothing wrong he was pissed at all the antler hunters in my town because they were compitition for him and he tried to use his power to scare them into stopping and went after them one by one. I was the only one that refused to take the harassment and threats by him, I went public with what he said and did and he did not like it at all.

 

[SSakitas]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-12 AT 07:59PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-12 AT 07:45?PM (MST)

Also At last years meetings all the game wardens told us that the point of the meetings were to brain storm Ideas on how to get the herd up to the 50,000 objective level. It wasn't until the last meeting that we were informed that the point of the meetings were not to increase the number of deer to 50,000 but to try and maintain the current populations we have. They are flat out LIARS and cant be trusted. In my opinion the only reason they ever stated that they wanted to get the herds up to 50,000 was to get more people to show up at the meetings which i can understand but dont lie to the public to do it. And this is why they CAN NOT BE TRUSTED because they are liars.
Also Topgun the miss management that I brought up with Mrs. Fralic was about Region K that had a very bad winter kill in 93 and the season was shortened to something like 5 or 7 days after the winter of 93(which was a good thing). Then the seasons were brought up to 10 days years later all the way to the winter of 08. Which had the worst winter kill since 93 I counted over 200 hundred dead deer in a 5 mile hike in may that year on the winter range(the exact same area they count the winter mortality in). Guess What the game and fish did the next season? They had a 14 day season after the worst winter kill since 1993 if this isnt an example of miss management I dont know what is. When I told Mrs Fralic this it did not sit well with him and he had to agrue with everything I said the rest of the night. I might add I was respectfull to him when I made my point and told him my opinion.

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-12 AT 08:12PM (MST)[p]That may all be true, but you don't get anywhere by telling someone out at a meeting that they don't know what the he** they're doing and not expect a negative reaction from them from then on!!! I guess it's sort of like the old saying that it's easier catching flies with honey rather than vinegar! It appears you have such a negative attitude towards the F&G that apparently you open your mouth when maybe you should put a clamp on it. Trust me on this one because I've put my foot in my mouth enough myself that I know what I'm talking about, LOL!

 

[SSakitas]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-12 AT 08:19PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN I really disagree With you. I pay there wage I have every right to voice my opinion to them If they cant and dont do there jobs its up to me and every other sportsman that buys a tag in wyoming to step up and tell them how they feel. If people do not call the Game and fish out on there mistakes and tell them how they feel then we will never get anywhere in improving our deer herds. You obviously have a problem with me and will disagree with me no matter what I say.

 

[TOPGUN]

Did you ever think that as a NR that I'm paying a lot more into their salaries than you are with all my much higher licenses and fees?! You're not listening to what Buzz and I are saying, so listen to this one last post please. It's not what you say, but how you say it that is pizzing everybody off. Treat people and talk to them like you want to be treated and you would have a lot better chance to get your message across. That's what we're trying to tell you out on this thread and that is all I'm saying! If this statement about the Game Warden deal is on the level, for instance, why didn't you go up the ladder to a Supervisor or the Chief in Cheyenne, rather than doing what you did? It might have resulted in something positive being done, but you won't know if you didn't try.

 

[MULEY204]

WHAT ARE SOME GOOD QUESTIONS FOR THE SURVEY. LET'S STAY POSITIVE

 

[SSakitas]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-12 AT 10:58PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-12 AT 10:19?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-12 AT 10:13?PM (MST)

Topgun we did go to his superviser and it was just not me that This happened to there was other people some of them also complained in the end nothing was done. I dont understand you, how else am I supposed to let a biologest know how I feel about what has been done to MY muledeer herds other than telling him straight up. You were not there you have no Idea how I said it. I was completely nice to him I just stated what I felt was a mistake in the management of muledeer. He just insisted on trying to argue with me about everthing I said. Instead of listening which was the point of the meetings in the 1st place for them to listen to us. TOPGUN You are jumping to conclusions with everything I say. You Just dont get it. It doesnt matter how you tell the Game and fish something if they dont agree with you or it goes against there beliefs they become defiant and offensive and refuse to listen. They are right we are wrong. See it doesnt matter what I say you will not agree with me at all

 

[piper]

I would imagine comparing current OTC deer tags and regional nonresident tags with current pronghorn management in Wyoming would be fair way to ask about limited quota hunting for deer anyway. That could be fairly worded in a survey I believe, and the general public would be completely familiar with each management strategy. I think the amount of nonresident tags given out would be fair game in a survey, I think the price of resident deer tags should be compared to other western states and asked about. Seperate seasons and tags for different weapon types could be asked about also.

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-12 AT 07:14AM (MST)[p]Last comments to SS: Read this one sentence that I C/Pd from your initial post after we started this discussion on your problem:
"Fralic(biologist) did nothing but argue with me at last years wyoming range deer meetings No matter what I said because the first thing I brought up was miss management by the wyoming game and fish and it pissed him off."

If the first thing you said to Fralic, as you mentioned, was accusing the F&G of mismanagement and it is actually the Commissioners that are overruling him and the other biologists no matter what they are doing to try and do good for the herd, maybe you would have reacted the same way! No matter what the biologists come up with, good or bad, it's the Commission that makes the final decisions. Politics nowadays is running most of the decisions made in most of the state F&G Departments and I'm sure it gets old with a lot of the employees who are trying to do a good job and don't get anywhere even though they have a degree in biology, etc. Then they go out and the general public takes it out on them because they are the whipping boys and easiest to get at. I saw a lot of that kind of BS in my 30+ years working for the MI Dept. of Agriculture. We are set up the same way up here where the Governor appoints those top people and then they are beholding to him and the people who got them into their postions. You try to do a great job and because of all the shenanigans going on with the top brass the citizens can't get at we were the first to get attacked since we were the ones out in the field that had direct contact with those folks. The bigger an organization gets the more cumbersome it gets to get worthwhile goals accomplished and it appears that mainly politics is running the F&G the way it is now. Thanks for having a civil discussion on this!

 

[MULEY204]

I believe the decline in the population of Mule deer and the average age of the bucks is the issue.

How can we fix the problems ?

How can we double the population of Mule deer and increase the age of our bucks ?

1) Would an aggressive Predator removal/reduction help the deer herd ?

2) Would eliminating Antlerless hunts on Mule deer increase the population ?

3) Would passing on the little forky's for a few years increase the amount of bucks in the herd and also in time increase the overall age of our bucks ?

4) Is the Antelope model in Wyoming or the Mule deer model in Colorado the answer in conjunction with the above questions ? or could it stand alone without help from the above questions ?

I think this would work in my home state of Idaho.

Just my 2 cents

 

[MULEY204]

Imagine if we could agree on a path forward and then figure out how to make it happen.

I think this is a very basic and simple task, the change is the hard part and the problem and should be the focus.

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID comes to mind , we don't need another study on what to do, we need a STUDY ON HOW TO DO IT !

REMOVE THE PREDATORS
STOP HARVESTING THE ANTLERLESS
LEAVE THOSE YOUNG BUCKS ALONE
UNIT SPECIFIC DRAW WITH CONTROLLED TAGS, However some units you could draw every year just like the Antelope draw. You add in some habitat improvements and fence and underpasses and your well on your way to a large healthy Mule deer herd .

We need to take it up the chain.. The Governor of the state of Wyoming is a good place to start.

 

[TOPGUN]

I believe the decline in the population of Mule deer and the average age of the bucks is the issue.
How can we fix the problems ?
Answer---Increasing the total population is too complex for an easy answer. To insure that the average age of bucks increases in an area there are several ways to go:
1---Stop all hunting in an area for 1 or more years (I doubt that would fly)
2---Place antler restrictions in certain units (that has not worked well in most areas where it's been tried)
3---Try to get people to stop shooting any buck they see (Very hard to do, especially for NRs that pay so much they have the mentality that they have to take some meat home regardless of what it is)

How can we double the population of Mule deer and increase the age of our bucks ?
Answer---I doubt that you will see most areas double in zize without discontinuing hunting for several years and doing a tremendous amount of expensive predator control along with praying for favorable weather druing the stress periods.

1) Would an aggressive Predator removal/reduction help the deer herd ?
Answer---A definite YES
2) Would eliminating Antlerless hunts on Mule deer increase the population ?
Answer---A definite YES
3) Would passing on the little forky's for a few years increase the amount of bucks in the herd and also in time increase the overall age of our bucks ?
Answer---Another definite YES
4) Is the Antelope model in Wyoming or the Mule deer model in Colorado the answer in conjunction with the above questions ? or could it stand alone without help from the above questions ?
Answer---A combination of all four IMO as I don't believe there is any stand alone thing that will help.

 

[piper]

Muley 204- for some reason going to hunt specific limited quota management is a really hard thing for some people. Its the only way to restore quality to the deer hunts no doubt, but I don't see it happening soon. This state is going down just like Idaho, there will alway be a few good bucks taken every year, but so much is lost. If the Arizona strip were in Wyoming they would give OTC tags to the residents and 500 nonresident tags out every year, and in 3 years little would be left for anyone to enjoy, even nonhunters,as the big old bucks would be wiped out, yet thats how it would go in Wyoming and Im afraid about half of the residents wouldn't care.

 

[SSakitas]

You guys are right The lack of mature breeding bucks is one of the main reason our mule deer are declining in my opinion. I think The health and dynamics of our mule deer are so out of wack from this. And most people just dont relize it. I have expressed this concern many times to the biologist and letters to the commissioners and of course i dont know what I am talking about. I always get told the same thing we have a 35 - 40 bucks per 100 does thats plenty of bucks to do they breeding. My responce is always the same how many of those 35 - 40 bucks are over 4 years old, not many.

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-12 AT 12:56PM (MST)[p]

SS---One thing that a lot of people don't realize is that mulies are getting as smart as a mature whitetail and many are not out during daylight hours. The decent 4x4 I shot the last day of my hunt was not seen one time in the four weeks I scouted and hunted the area. All of a sudden as the rut got closer out he popped one morning following four does and trying to get a good sniff of you know what!!! The other thing is that a buck doesn't have to be 4 or 5 years old to successfully breed and pass on his genes because they are the same from the time he's born until he dies. It's when ther is a good cross section of buck age groups where you start seeing fights and skirmishes for the rights of the more mature age class to breed the does.

 

[SSakitas]

TOPGUN So you are saying that there are more mature out there than I think Because I am just not seeing them be cause they are hiding?

 

[TOPGUN]

SS---I can't speak to your particular area, since I don;t even know eher you hunt, but I can tell you this. I was out in Wyoming where I hunt in Region M from the last week of September through the first of November like I am most years and every year this seems to happen like clockwork. I saw two decent bucks in September about the size of the one I shot the last day I hunted and he wasn't one of them. I also saw as many as 12 smaller bucks on one hillside alone through the first part of October. They even started becoming more nocturnal as the days went by until I saw very few of them, other than maybe an occasional one at first or last light. There are only a couple other people that hunt back in where I do because most don't even know it's public land, so it wasn't from human pressure that caused them to hole up. It's just the nature of the animal after they lose their velvet and Fall gets closer. They just quit moving like they have during the summer months when they can be easily spotted in their summer coat. That's why I'm out well before daylight using the wind and sitting hidden to glass the country and I do the same until shooting hours are over or later if there are deer in the area before I stand and leave. There are very few bucks being shot in my area because, thank God, there just aren't many hunters. There are also enough cattle and sheep that there is predator control to keep the coyotes down in numbers, as well as lion hunters during the winter months. I think deer numbers are down from what I saw back in 1994 when I started hunting the area, but not at an alarming rate that causes me much concern. We have also not had any one bad winter in that area since 92-93 that would have created any real winter kill, so where did all those those younger bucks go that I see earlier in September? I think the only answer I can come up with is that they are geting smarter as they get older and Fall comes on. One of these years I'm going to stay out there all the way through the November rut to see what comes out of the woodwork to breed all the does, which incidentally all seem to have at least one fawn with each of them, so something is impregnating them every Fall!

 

[SSakitas]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-12 AT 01:44PM (MST)[p]topgun why is that no matter what I say I feel you seem to disagree with me I have my opinion also. This is what I feel is one of the main reason mule deer herds are declining. The deer with superior genetics grow superior antlers and those deer are the ones that are getting targeted all over the west. You can not target the genetically superior animals for many years and not expect it to have a effect on the overall helth of a muledeer herd. And yes it doesnt matter if a buck is 2 years old or 10 when he breeds a doe he still passes on the same genetics. But when a deer has superior genetics to grow huge antlers he also has superior genetics all the way around, the right genetics to ultimately better survive. But what happens is that bucks with the most superior genetics grows impressive antlers early in his life in many cases being any were from 160 to 200 inches at 3- 4 years old( I have seen it countless times) at 3-4 years old most buck dont have enough knowledge under there belt to survive and are harvested realitivly easy so they are not allowed to pass on there superior genetics for more than a year of breeding. So what you get left with is a deer herd that is mostly getting breed by the geneticly lesser bucks the ones hunters dont want to shoot. And yes I realize that does are also part of the process when passing on superior genetics. but when a doe with superior genetics is breed by a buck with lesser genetics its a 50 50 chance that fawn will come out with great genetics or poor genetics opposed to if that doe was bred by a genetically superior buck. That fawn has A better chance of acquiring the right amount of superior genetics to help it better survive. In my opinion when this happens for so long Like it has in most areas it effects the overall health of the herd. Please dont be so critical of my opinion

 

[SSakitas]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-12 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]I was actually being sarcastic in my post about bucks Hidding better thats why i dont see them. Mature muledeer are a entire differant animal to hunt trust me I know. Because thats all I hunt I will not go after a deer unless I know for a fact he is over 6 years old. I have targeted certian bucks over the years and hunted only those bucks for many years until I finally killed them or they died of old age. Passing on deer that were in the 180 and 190, that I knew were younger deer only to watch them get shot by someone else. I spend every day looking at deer in south western and wester wyoming from july 1st to the day deer no longer have antlers anymore. And I am here to tell you mature deer are very very rare anymore. I only see a hand full of bucks a year that are over 6 and those buck have poor genetics. Mature bucks 6 years old or over with superior genetics are almost non extince I only see maybe one a year if that(havent seen one yet this year)Most bucks I see with impressive antlers are only 4 years old and never return the next year. Its the mature bucks with lesser genetics that I see for consective years. And this in my opinion is one of the reason our deer herds are hurting.

 

[piper]

Over time the selective harvesting of large antlered bucks is going to effect the gene pool, your right no question, you will hear lots of reasons of why that doesn't happen, but those are are just excuses to feel good about what we are doing. I know cattle breeders keep the bulls with the best genetic traits breeding as long as possible, yet hunters do just the opposite. Its not a natural way to harvest the excess, and has little to do with survival of the fittest, except for promoting the more elusive and smaller antlered bucks to do the breeding. Good post SSakitas

 

[TOPGUN]

SS---You seem to have a persecution complex or something because in my last post I told you that what I was mentioning was strictly what I see where I hunt. I don't disagree with most of what you're saying, other than I think possibly there are a few more decent bucks around than you see or think there are. That is just a possibility from my experiences in the field the last few years and what I see up north, not what you are seeing down where you are. I have no doubt that the deer have been hit hard down there from weather, as well as overharvesting of mature, and probably even immature, bucks. I agree that unless a herd has numbers like we have up where I hunt that there should be no does shot in order to build the herd towards carrying capacity, whatever that is deemed to be by people in the know. Cool off a little Bro, as I'm a lot more on your side than you seem to think!!!

 

[buglinbilly]

Although I am no longer a resident of Wyoming, I was born and raised there. I lived in Uinta County and when I was a lad there were deer everywhere. I am talking the 50's-60's.

It's sad to see it go the way it has. There are so many factors involved. Back in the good ole days, there were basically no coyotes, no lions, very few bears, small, lower speed highways, and the oil and gas exploration had yet to happen. And there were many less elk. (Up until the wolves took their toll).

In those days we hunted with recurve bows and open sighted rifles.

But things have changed big time and the mule deer will never again be like they were in those days.

The way I see it, Wyoming needs to limit far more the deer licenses they issue. I am talking both resident and non resident. And I think they need to raise the cost of license fees. Heck it takes over $100.00 to take the wife to a good meal and and show. Certainly a resident deer license should be of equal or more value than a one night out on the town.

And I would just finish saying I hunt Wyoming every chance I get and I have always been treated great by the Game and Fish wardens and I think they do a great job. I think the main problem stems from both the wardens and biologists not being able to do what they know is best. And that is caused from those higher up the ladder and those that generally make more money.

Best wishes to Wyoming in getting the issue resolved.

Have a good one. BB

 

[Wyobowhunt]

If you guys only knew ICMDEER and how much he cares about Mule Deer you would not question any of this.

 

[TOPGUN]

Wyobowhunt---I don't think any of us have said anything about his not caring about mulies and that is exactly why I made post #8 and why we are discussing this at length here. This was my post to ICM and I still think it's valid:

Feb-02-12, 08:57 PM (MST)
8. "RE: Wyoming Resident Deer Survey"
ICM---Other than one very negative post,I thought everyone was trying to offer fairly positive things for you to think about in order to get something started! I do think after having all day to think about it that since the NRs spend so much money to subsidize the F&G that maybe we should be included in the survey, but I wouldn't back out of my offer if we aren't!

 

[ICMDEER]

Sorry guys. I've been busy and have not gotten back to this post. Some good comments here and good questions as well. A couple of points:

1. The comissioners might make the final decisions, but as I said, I have known quite a few commissioners pretty well. They really never get much other than recommendations and a few options from staff. The ones I have spoken to were frustrated by the system and said new options were never endorsed or supported by staff, either administration or biologists.
2. Wardens have significant influence on seasons and structure. Biologists might make the recommendations, but they actively consult with wardens on an almost daily basis.

A couple of other points. I've been told by a biologist that they way they get those good buck to doe ratios is that they are taken in the winter, after the season. They get a doe count, a fawn count and a buck count. But since it is a post season count, the number of fawns is divided by two, then that number (of 1/2 of the fawns - assumee to be buck fawns) is added to the number of bucks and that's how you get the number of bucks for next year. They assume half of the fawns are bucks and will be around next year. For example, they count 100 does, 50 fawns and 10 antlered bucks. You then have 35 bucks (10 antlered plus 25 buck fawns ) per 100 does in the population. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

Not sure how I'd count them, but that's not what I thought it was all along.

Seems to me that we all have the common threads of really caring about mule deer, and wanting to see some positive change. I also think the G&F people are good, caring people, but as piper said, most of them have never seen or been aware of the times when deer populations were good and things were well managed for the resource base and hunting pressure of that time. Things are dramatically differnet now, but the management has not kept pace with the hunter numbers, sophistication and the pressure on the mule deer resource.

Not sure what can be done, but it is really good that so many people care.

I'll keep doing all that I can personally to enhance habitat and kill predators on lands that I own or manage and I'll also stay very conservative in the management of what I can control. I know we "spill over" deer to lots of neighbors and public lands and that is good to me. As I wrote in a previous post, I have not shot a buck in Wyoming with my rifle for over a decade and may never do it again. But I sure LOVE seeing them and know they are there and safe. I look at mule deer every day and I always say "every day when you see a mule deer is a good day" and I hope it will always be that way for me.

Thanks for all of the interest and discussion.

 

[wolfhunter]

ICMDEER,

You are a CLASS ACT! Thanks from all of Wyoming!

I wish Wyoming residents would realize what they are losing. All they have to do is work together and the change would happen. They have so much power for change. w We just need to stop fighting with each other and get the message to the commissioners and do what is best for the deer....

That buck to Doe ratio is very enlightening thanks for sharing. Sounds more like an Obama count.


Think about this: Wyoming does not have one unit that is a stand out trophy unit like the Henries Mountains in Utah.... Why don't we start with one unit or area and really manage it??? Why not Lincoln county! Best genetics in the State!

 

[TOPGUN]

Ditto the "Class Act" statement! I did know that's how and when they do the count because Iv'e discussed it before with the Warden/Biologist I know out in TenSleep.

 

[nontypical]

Jim-I didn't know that's how G&F got their b/d ratios.That's very disheartening.Fawns should not be counted as bucks.Wow.That explains a lot.No wonder the b/d ratios always seem so high.Wolfhunter-On countless occasions G&F has been approached about having some "trophy" units for deer,and on countless occasions that suggestion has been shot down in favor of hunter "opportunity".I think if we could just get the deer numbers back up to respectable numbers,the trophies would naturally follow.But until we do,wouldn't some slight changes in management be prudent?I gotta say,though,that I'm very encouraged by what I am seeing here on MM in regards to Wyoming's mule deer herd.Hunters are beginning to sit up and take notice!

 

[MULEY204]

I appreciate all of you folks, this is a very positive group with one goal in mind.

INCREASE THE MULE DEER POPULATION AND PUT SOME AGE ON THESE BUCKS

Remove more dogs & cats

Stop harvesting the deer that make the babies

and leave those little forky's alone and let them grow up.

These are easy changes , Wave the magic wand and make it happen.

This is a good place to start

 

[ICMDEER]

I know I am hard on Game and Fish sometimes, but I wanted to let folks know that our local biologist emailed me twice yesterday. Looks like the length of the deer seasons in the Laramie Range will be reduced this fall. For about a decade, we've been from October 15-31 for deer season. This fall, the season will be the 15-25. And the season out here farther east was redueced last year. It previously was Oct 1-15th and now is October 1-11.

We have to give those Game and Fish people credit for making positive changes and recognizing the need to do something to help/protect the mule deer. I'd like to do more, but change comes slowly. But it was solid of him to email outfitters and ask our feelings. I supported him even though it makes it tougher to get hunters scheduled. (We'll still take the same 5 hunters, just over a shorter period.) But if it is good for the mule deer, I'm all for it.

Just FYI - the G&F is recognizing the issue and doing a few things to help the muleys.

Let's all keep trying and hope for the best. Keep going to meetings or emailing G&F with your concerns.

 

[TOPGUN]

Sounds like they are starting to listen a little more and that was great for him to contact you on their season length proposal. It is easy for me to go out for an entire season if I want to since I'm retired. However, it's tough for the guy that still has to put in for vacation time when the seasons are established so late and the draws are so late for elk and antelope. That may be another reason that so many people hunt the opening day of seasons. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

 

[mmwb]

A lot of good people with great ideas. I've only had good interactions with game wardens here in Wyoming, but have only interacted with a few so am not qualified judge the rest. I suspect there are a few rotten apples in an otherwise good barrel.

I agree that there are more big bucks than many think, but still far too few overall.

Counting half the fawns as bucks only makes sense in a statistical analysis. The total are broken into doe/buck groups. Statistically, there is fair odds that half the fawns are male, and half female. The male fawns are not really factors in terms of contributing to the gene pool for a couple of years, but are male nonetheless. It might make more sense to have three categories: does, bucks, fawns, and define the parameters of "fawns." A well developed survey, administered and analyzed by a qualified objective party could be very valuable. Most of the surveys I see have little validity in terms of what the statistics are purported to say.

The superior genes for deer are in the younger bucks sired by superior bucks, but the age of the bucks do make a difference. Older bucks breed does earlier leading to earlier births and a crop of fawns that will be more mature and ready for the following winter. Younger bucks breed the does later leading to later births and higher winter moralities.