Wyoming drone/aircraft ban

BuzzH

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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A couple press releases out this week on the use of aircraft for scouting.

The proposed regulation changes will include adding drones to the definition of aircraft in regulation. It will also impose a complete closure for the use of any aircraft for scouting/locating/hunting big-game between August 1 and January 31 at all.

http://trib.com/lifestyles/recreati...cle_a027a4ef-e87a-588d-94e4-09d2e85079bf.html

This will clear up the conflict between regulation and statute by removing the "24-hour" rule currently in regulation.

However, the current rule doesn't address unmanned aerial vehicles, or drones.

"The statute we have in Wyoming was written before drones were even visualized, and it doesn't distinguish between manned and unmanned aircraft," Gilbert said. "We've got some folks who think we should address that."

The issue comes down to ethics and fair chase, Gilbert said.

The proposed rule change would "do away with the 24-hour prohibition on flying and make it from like Aug. 1 through the end of January so you can't fly, scout and spot game through the entire hunting season," Gilbert said.

Commercial flights would be exempt under the rule.

The Wyoming Game and Fish Commission has extended the comment period for the proposed rule change.

Another press release here:

http://www.backcountryhunters.org/i...ming-effort-to-ban-drones-aircraft-in-hunting
 
That would be a win!
I agree, other States need this proactive approach.
Thanks Buzz.
Zeke
 
Agreed, I hope this goes through. More so I hope they actually can and will enforce it!

I spotted a guy poaching antlers today on the local feedground and I called game and fish...they said they'd check it out tomorrow.

Rules are useless without enforcement and prosecution!
 
At the G&F spring meeting the other day, sounded like everyone was in favor of the proposal. A few folks said they'll never get a conviction. I noted I was talking with someone who has a helicopter as me and a friend are looking at flying into landlocked public ground this fall. I asked down the road, how they'd word it so we wouldn't be affected. They said hadn't figured that out yet. Afterwards one of the wardens acknowledged unless someone admits guilt it will almost be impossible to get a conviction. Imagine drones will be easier to pursue...
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-15 AT 06:27PM (MST)[p]Pretty sure the only public land agency that allows flying into landlocked public land is the BLM.

USFS doesn't for sure, don't know what the regulations are regarding State lands, but in Chapter 13 section(5) there is mention of motorized use only on established roads.

It would appear that flying to access State lands may be legal if you landed on an established road that was open by the decision of the stand land commission to motorized use.

Could be wrong though.
 
Agree 100% with wyobackcountry we need prosecution to the fullest extent. Breaking the law weather it be antler gathering before the season and or flying if passed should be same as poaching and we need stiffer penalties for poachers. Laws were put in place for a reason!!!!!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-15
>AT 06:27?PM (MST)
>
>Pretty sure the only public land
>agency that allows flying into
>landlocked public land is the
>BLM.
>
>USFS doesn't for sure, don't know
>what the regulations are regarding
>State lands, but in Chapter
>13 section(5) there is mention
>of motorized use only on
>established roads.
>
>It would appear that flying to
>access State lands may be
>legal if you landed on
>an established road that was
>open by the decision of
>the stand land commission to
>motorized use.
>
>Could be wrong though.


Didn't that very thing happen in wyo a few yrs back?
 
Why do you think that there are laws to keep people from hiring helos to go into landlocked public land?
 
>Why do you think that there
>are laws to keep people
>from hiring helos to go
>into landlocked public land?


In Wyoming there aren't...
 
What's the latest news? Will a ban go into effect in 2016?
[font face="verdana" color="green"] Ni' Baolach don olcas mise...
 
>What's the latest news? Will a
>ban go into effect in
>2016?
>[font face="verdana" color="green"] Ni' Baolach don
>olcas mise...


Most likely yes. The new regulation was presented to the G&F Commission in April on an informational basis. The new definition of aircraft was passed, which includes UAVs, but the G&F wants to give the public adequate time to review the new ban on scouting from aircraft, with plans to put into regulation for 2016.
 
This proposal as worded is a VERY BAD IDEA for public sportsmen. Big private ranches have for years tied up public lands which are landlocked. This law will effectively make it illegal to access any public landlocked lands by air. The current law has a 24 hour prohibition. Remember Wyoming state lands do NOT authorize 24 hour access or camping so the current law effectively locks you out as a private pilot now. BLM lands are accessible if you land on a road but you must wait 24 hours before hunting. This new law will effectively BAN all non-commercial aircraft for Scouting or Hunting from Aug. 1 to Jan. 30th every year. There are thousands of acres of land locked lands and keep in mind Corner-Hopping is considered a trespass offense in Wyoming and will be prosecuted by the county sheriff and county prosecutor. Any sportsmen who values having a chance at accessing these lands should write or attend a G&F meeting and display your disagreement with the current wording. I personally would like to see only an 8 hour ban instead of the current 24 hour ban as this would allow us to fly in on state lands in the morning, wait 8 hours and then hunt the evening until just before dark and fly out again. If the intent of this law is to simply stop drones then a law could be added with language banning drone scouting but what they are trying to do here is stop all public access from these lands. Please attend a meeting or write the G&F commission and protest.
 
Get your facts straight "newbie", the proposed regulation does not stop flying into public land. That's totally false.

The fact is, as written, State Statutes forbid using an aircraft to spot or locate game for the purpose of hunting PERIOD! Get your ethics in line, we don't need people 'hunting' from planes here in Wyoming.
 
Absolutely correct, there is nothing to stop anyone from using an aircraft for transportation to and from hunting areas. Just using them for scouting, which is a big problem in many areas of Wyoming for just about every species.

The new regulation makes total sense, which is prohibiting aircraft from being used to scout.
 
No need to scout with a drone. My neighbor is always flying his above my house and its driving me nuts. Has a crazy amount of bright lights and is super loud
 
>No need to scout with a
>drone. My neighbor is always
>flying his above my house
>and its driving me nuts.
>Has a crazy amount of
>bright lights and is super
>loud


If that drone goes over your house in your air space be ready with your shotgun or rifle and take it out! Then tell the neighbor when he complains that you thought it was an ISIS drone, LOL!
 
By the way, but nothing to do with this thread, Highfast is wrong about corner crossing in Wy. There is no law that specifically makes it illegal. It is solely left up to County DA's whether to prosecute and the only case I know of, the hunter was found not guilty. That was Albany County 2008, I believe.

In my county, the sheriff doesn't write it. I am a strong believer in access to public land. Always have been and will always be.
 
>>No need to scout with a
>>drone. My neighbor is always
>>flying his above my house
>>and its driving me nuts.
>>Has a crazy amount of
>>bright lights and is super
>>loud
>
>
>If that drone goes over your
>house in your air space
>be ready with your shotgun
>or rifle and take it
>out! Then tell the
>neighbor when he complains that
>you thought it was an
>ISIS drone, LOL!


That thought weighs heavy on my mind but city limits keep me from doing so. But the pellet gun just might have to do. The lights light up the whole area and it wakes the kids up at night.
 
The Game Wardens are enforcing a total ban on Non-commercial flying within 24 hours. The current law is written as follows: No person shall use any aircraft to aid in
the taking of any Wyoming wildlife, except predatory animals, whether by spotting or
locating the wildlife, communicating with any person attempting to take the wildlife, or by
providing other aid to any person taking the wildlife within twenty?]four (24) hours of being
airborne.
The Game Wardens prosecute any non-commercial flying as "PROVIDING AID TO ANY PERSON WITHIN 24 HOURS"

The current law will be changed from a 24 hour ban to a ban from Aug. 1st until Jan. 31st EXCEPT COMMERCIAL FLYING. The language of this new proposal must be watched very closely to ensure private pilot flying is allowed.

Regarding Corner Hopping there have been cases prosecuted in Sweetwater, Carbon and Natrona counties for such offense. Current G&F policy is to not get involved but most county sheriffs view the practice as trespassing and will prosecute. Large Ranches have tied up these public lands since the early history days of Wyoming. Legislators on both sides of the issue have tried to pass legislation both for and against the practice and it those efforts have never made it past the committee level.
 
>The Game Wardens are enforcing a
>total ban on Non-commercial flying
>within 24 hours.

Currently there is no "ban" on flying at all.

The
>current law is written as
>follows: No person shall use
>any aircraft to aid in
>the taking of any Wyoming wildlife,
>except predatory animals, whether by
>spotting or
>locating the wildlife, communicating with any
>person attempting to take the
>wildlife, or by
>providing other aid to any person
>taking the wildlife within twenty?]four
>(24) hours of being
>airborne.

Yes, this is the current regulation.


>The Game Wardens prosecute any non-commercial
>flying as "PROVIDING AID TO
>ANY PERSON WITHIN 24 HOURS"

This is a completely false statement also.

>The current law will be changed
>from a 24 hour ban
>to a ban from Aug.
>1st until Jan. 31st EXCEPT
>COMMERCIAL FLYING. The language
>of this new proposal must
>be watched very closely to
>ensure private pilot flying is
>allowed.

Flying to and from areas DOES NOT fall under proposed regulation. As long as aircraft 'straight lines' to destination with no scouting, there is no offense.


>Regarding Corner Hopping there have been
>cases prosecuted in Sweetwater, Carbon
> and Natrona counties for
>such offense.

I do know there have been NO cases prosecuted in Natrona County.


Current G&F
>policy is to not get
>involved

True, per Attorney General opinion.

but most county sheriffs
>view the practice as trespassing
>and will prosecute.

Don't know where you got this information, but IMO is false


Large
>Ranches have tied up these
>public lands since the early
>history days of Wyoming.
>Legislators on both sides of
>the issue have tried to
>pass legislation both for and
>against the practice and it
>those efforts have never made
>it past the committee level.
>

This is a true statement, but corner crossing is not specifically illegal in Wyo

Highflyr- great way to start your reputation here on MM!
 
JM 77 get your facts straight. I personally was cited by G&F Game Warden Aaron Kerr in 2011 for flying and hunting the same day. As I stated earlier the law is no Non-Commercial aircraft may fly within 24 hours of hunting as it is considered "PROVIDING AID" which is illegal under the current statute.

Two hunters were charged in 2012 on Elk Mountain for Corner Hopping as it was considered Trespassing. The hunters used GPS but unfortunately were riding horses when they crossed the corner so the County sheriff of Carbon County issued citations. In Natrona County a hunter illegally corner hopped on the Pine Ridge and was issued a citation. In Sweetwater County near Rawlins there have been several cases in the Checkerboard lands of Corner hopping being prosecuted. The G&F will not intervene but the County Sheriffs consider it trespassing. Go ahead and try it during hunting season and see what happens. Unless you want to spend lots of time and money on attorney fees then don't do it.
 
This is what you said Highflyer "The Game Wardens are enforcing a total ban on Non-commercial flying within 24 hours"

I guess the important part you failed to mention was that you spotted from a plane and then went hunting the same day. I hope you lost hunting privileges over that citation. If you didn't, you should have.

This new regulation targets people like you, to prevent the unethical use of aircraft to find and harass game animals. You might try using your legs and binoculars, that has worked just fine for real hunters who don't need aircraft to make a successful hunt.

And please don't tell me what's going on in Natrona County about corner crossing. You don't know what you're talking about.

And I can understand trying to corner cross on a horse might be considered something a little different than being on foot. As far as other counties go, if deputies are writing tickets than the hunters should be fighting it in court. It's their loss if they don't.
 
Just to give everyone an idea of the mindset of Buzz and JM 77, next year they will be pedaling a new law to make scouting all together illegal. Because there is no way on God's green earth wardens are going to be able to enforce this proposed law, especially a month before the season. It will just be easier to make ALL scouting illegal. This is slippery slope of passing laws to combat jealousy and it appears people are ready to give up all their freedoms over jealousy. Between the shed hunting law and now possible scouting laws, the game and fish is going to be so busy chasing their tail the real criminals are going to get away with poaching... Good job fellas!!!

The game and fish will certainly need to spend some of their budget on aircraft to patrol the sky now as well. Money taken away from the things that really matter...what a joke!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-15 AT 11:20PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-08-15 AT 11:19?PM (MST)

Yep, if anyone knows about jokes, it's you Sam. I think the ethics of those who will fight to keep scouting from aircraft will be very obvious.

By the way, I don't agree with the shed hunting regulation. If we have a problem with game harassment on the winter range, that's what should be dealt with, not singling out one group of land users.
 
>This is what you said Highflyer
>"The Game Wardens are enforcing
>a total ban on Non-commercial
>flying within 24 hours"
>
>I guess the important part you
>failed to mention was that
>you spotted from a plane
>and then went hunting the
>same day. I hope you
>lost hunting privileges over that
>citation. If you didn't, you
>should have.
>
>This new regulation targets people like
>you, to prevent the unethical
>use of aircraft to find
>and harass game animals. You
>might try using your legs
>and binoculars, that has worked
>just fine for real hunters
>who don't need aircraft to
>make a successful hunt.
>
>And please don't tell me what's
>going on in Natrona County
>about corner crossing. You don't
>know what you're talking about.
>
>
> As far as other
>counties go, if deputies are
>writing tickets than the hunters
>should be fighting it in
>court. It's their loss if
>they don't.

I did NOT scout and was never accused of flying/scouting as there were witnesses. I was cited for "PRIVIDING AID" within 24 hours while flying and hunting. The aid was simply the use of an aircraft for transportation. No I did not lose my hunting priviliges and YES I hunt and fly every year but do so after waiting 24 hours. What my worry is the new law as proposed will stop all Non-Commercial flying from August 1st to Jan. 31st. You obviously are not a pilot and no nothing about using an aircraft for transportaion. It is a common practice in Idaho and Alaska to fly in and hunt. I would like to see the law changed to have all drone flying banned from scouting but allow private flying within 8 hours of hunting. The problem now is all STATE lands do not allow 24 hour camping or access so in effect with the law currently worded you cannot use your aircraft to fly within 24 hours so the law restricts the legal access of state lands. The Forest service does not allow flying into US Forest service lands. The only legal lands you can access with an aircraft are BLM lands.

Here are two more articles regarding corner hopping in Wyoming. The BLM specifically prohibits it.

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_0848ffe6-200c-11e1-8b59-001871e3ce6c.html

http://www.blm.gov/co/st/en/fo/lsfo/programs/recreation/hunting/faqs.html

As far as my case I did not agree with the law but did not fight it as the Citation was $200 and the attorney fees would have far exceed this so I just paid the citation. The other cases of corner hopping in Carbon, Sweetwater and Natrona counties were prosecuted by the County Sheriff. The Natrona county case was a case on BLM lands on the Pine Ridge in 2010.
 
Thats how your kind works. Your always pedaling a new laws to make up for your inadequacy as a man. Your kind is always worried about what everyone else is doing with the toy that is shinier than yours. Your Jealousy knows no bounds... Your certainly not pedaling MORE FREEDOM.
 
Wolf and Fast, I think you guys might be getting worked up over nothing on this deal. I had a chance to catch up with a warden friend of mine from the other side of the state. I brought up this issue and my concerns. He was doubtful they'll ever see a conviction without an outright confession. He said if he were to get a call, and the caller couldn't provide a possible pilot's name or numbering off the aircraft, he's not pursuing it. He then went on to say if ends up talking to a pilot and they have a reasonable explanation, it won't go anywhere as a judge would throw it out. He noted he has to take into consideration the probability of getting a conviction as he's not going to waste the Court's time as well as his. He also noted a lot of ranchers have planes and if any of them say they're checking gates, looking for cattle or trespassers, his investigation is over. About all this regulation might do is get rid of those who advertise scouting services.
 
>By the way, but nothing to
>do with this thread, Highfast
>is wrong about corner crossing
>in Wy. There is no
>law that specifically makes it
>illegal. It is solely left
>up to County DA's whether
>to prosecute and the only
>case I know of, the
>hunter was found not guilty.
>That was Albany County 2008,
>I believe.
>
>In my county, the sheriff doesn't
>write it. I am a
>strong believer in access to
>public land. Always have been
>and will always be.

That's 100% correct and after that case you mentioned the G&F Wardens were told not to get involved in writing trespass tickets if it involved corner jumping. It is up to the individual County Prosecutors as to whether they will prosecute a case involving a ticket a County Sheriff Deputy might write if a persons enters a not guilty plea. Thus, a ticket will not be written if the Sheriff knows he will get no backing from the Prosecutor. Very little that highfastflyer stated in his post is accurate on either flying or corner jumping.
 
>The truth is the G&F overstepped
>their authority on this by
>adding the "24 hour rule"
>in regulation. Scouting game animals
>for the purpose of hunting
>hasn't been legal in Wyoming
>since this statute was passed
>into law.
>
>
>23-3-306. Use of aircraft, automobiles, motorized
>and snow vehicles and artificial
>light for hunting or fishing
>prohibited; exceptions; penalties.
>
>
>
>(a) No person shall harass, pursue,
>hunt, shoot, or kill any
>Wyoming wildlife except predatory animals
>with, from, or by use
>of any aircraft, automotive vehicle,
>trailer, motor-propelled wheeled vehicle, or
>vehicle designed for travel over
>snow. No person shall use
>any aircraft, to aid in
>the taking of any Wyoming
>wildlife, except predatory animals, whether
>by spotting or locating the
>wildlife, communicating with any person
>attempting to take the wildlife,
>or by providing other aid
>to any person taking the
>wildlife. Nothing in this subsection
>shall apply to the use
>of any aircraft by governmental
>agencies, their employees, contractors or
>designees performing any lawful duties.
>The commission may exempt handicapped
>hunters from any provision of
>this subsection.

JM the G&F have changed the wording in the Hunting Regulations several times but for at least 20 years have had the 24 hour ban on flying maybe longer. The Oufitters association demanded a change in the regulation at one time as it showed as does the Statute which you quote which bans all aircraft used in the aid of taking wildlife. The outfitters were concerned a rich client who flew into Wyoming on a commercial flight and then hunted would be considered illegal under this statute. They have changed the wording in the G&F Hunting regulations which has a ban on Non-Commercial aircraft ie private pilot flying as "PROVIDING AID" within 24 hours of hunting. Sometimes I fly my aircraft only several hundred yards literally just to get across a corner survey marker. How could I possibly scout when I don't even fly more than 10 feet in the air and for only a 20 second flight? It is one thing to use an aircraft for transportation and another thing to use it for scouting, two entirely different uses. The G&F allow commercial flying but don't want private pilots flying within 24 hours as it is "PROVIDING AID". My fear is the G&F new change of this regulation will have a complete ban of non-commercial flying aircraft from Aug. 1st until jan. 31st as proposed and they keep the wording as "PROVIDING AID" which will in effect ban all non-commercial flying and myself from using my aircraft. What is the difference between someone who rides a 4 wheeler, drives a truck or drives a snowmobile into their hunting area? Another problem is the 24 hour ban locks us out of flying and hunting on state lands because of the no overnight camping rule. The Forest Sservice already prohibits flying onto their lands but BLM allows it. I would like to see a private pilot be able to fly in the morning wait 8 hours until hunting and then be able to hunt the evening. This way we could at least access our public state lands which are landlocked by private land.
 
Does anyone know if a ban will go into affect next year?
I hope it works but I feel some Outfitters will just scout via aircraft anyway because killing giant bucks is their lively hood. There is no doubt that scouting from a plane is an extremely effective way to find big bucks.
 
Interesting thread. I am a pilot and fly a small bush plane. I, too have been perplexed by the interpretation of the rules as written (by some G&F wardens). It does not appear that the textual description of the regulation would support citing a pilot who flies directly to a land-locked location, lands without first scouting, then goes hunting. I did this with a friend, landing on state land (existing 2-track) in Albany County. As we were securing the plane and removing our guns and packs, an outfitter's truck came charging across the prairie. He jumped out with a client/video camera in tow and began to berate us for breaking the law and landing on "his" hunting area. He called his friend (G&F Warden S. Blajszczak) and I got on the phone with him. I explained that I had visited the G&F office in Laramie and inquired if it was OK to access public land for hunting by plane so long as no scouting occurs...and was told yes, so long as I don't overfly the area I intend to hunt and cancel plans for hunting if, during approach and landing, I see the species I'm hunting. He told me he disagrees and wanted to talk to me. He said he'd be there in 45 minutes, but it took him 90 minutes to find us and the outfitter (who stayed). I was cited for hunting within 24 hours of flying (like highflyer, only about $220 bond)
I disagreed with his interpretation, I was ticked off, and went to court, hoping to get a precedent setting ruling. I did not elect to hire an attorney, representing myself. Judge Castor ruled that no hunting took place, so the flying to hunt charge did not apply (but no precedent ruling could be had). The prosecutor tried to change tactics when it wasn't going his way and attempted to charge me with aiding a hunter insofar as I provided transportation for my friend. Since the pilot/passenger relationship was not ascertained during discovery, this charge was also thrown out.
All in all, pretty frustrating. As I read these regulations, it is perfectly legal to fly to a location to hunt if you don't spot or tell a hunter on the ground where to look.
From the Regs, page 8 item dd: No person shall use any aircraft to aid in the taking of any Wyoming wildlife, except predatory animals, whether by spotting or locating the wildlife, communicating with any person attempting to take the wildlife, or by providing other aid to any person taking the wildlife withing twenty-four hours of being airborne. This shall not apply to commercial, commuter or other aircraft used for the sole purpose of passenger transport.
IMO, a private aircraft used to access but not spot, clearly falls into the "sole purpose of passenger transport" category.
Not sure how to proceed except to do it again...and hunt, then go back to court. Not sure that's worth the trouble.
P.S. don't give up on the USFS land, permission can be had, just ask.
 
tb

I can tell you that during the discussions that Buzz & I had with G&F, the subject of 'flying to transport' came up. We were told that it was absolutely legal and that there were no intentions to make it anything else.

That being said, you are the second pilot to claim that you were issued a citation for flying into public ground under the present regulation. I would contact the G&F supervisor in charge of regulation and speak your concerns to him. His name is:

Mike Choma
Wildlife Law Enforcement Supervisor
307-473-3417

I am personally a public land access advocate and believe that we should have the right to access our public ground, even if you have to fly into because it's land locked.

Jeff
 
No offense Jeff, but from my experience Mike Choma is not the best G&F contact for this situation regardless of his current title. One time past he threatened to cite me for "harassing wildlife" because I pulled off on to a legal parking area on a highway to watch elk that were being pushed across the road into a hunter management area I was licensed to hunt by former warden Avey, all because the landowner didn't want them on his irrigated field. Mike tried to claim that the elk could see my vehicle (no matter the hundreds of cars on the highway that day) and because that tried to claim they could see me and would not cross... I did absolutely nothing illegal but didn't want the hassle of fighting a bs citation in court so I drove off. I have never respected the guy since.

Jason Hunter is a great warden to contact and would be my recommendation. He may not have the same title but he will listen to anyone's concerns and do the best he can to help.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-15 AT 05:59PM (MST)[p]>No offense Jeff, but from my
>experience Mike Choma is not
>the best G&F contact for
>this situation regardless of his
>current title. One time past
>he threatened to cite me
>for "harassing wildlife" because I
>pulled off on to a
>legal parking area on a
>highway to watch elk that
>were being pushed across the
>road into a hunter management
>area I was licensed to
>hunt by former warden Avey,
>all because the landowner didn't
>want them on his irrigated
>field. Mike tried to claim
>that the elk could see
>my vehicle (no matter the
>hundreds of cars on the
>highway that day) and because
>that tried to claim they
>could see me and would
>not cross... I did absolutely
>nothing illegal but didn't want
>the hassle of fighting a
>bs citation in court so
>I drove off. I have
>never respected the guy since.
>
>
>Jason Hunter is a great warden
>to contact and would be
>my recommendation. He may not
>have the same title but
>he will listen to anyone's
>concerns and do the best
>he can to help.

No offense taken bou, but in this situation, knowledge of how the Dept. functions would help.

I can assure you, that most game wardens do not know the correct answer when dealing with complex regulation. Listening and doing their best is a far cry from 'the right answer'.

Until recently, MANY Wyo game wardens had no clue about the corner crossing issue and how G&F should handle it. Unfortunately, there can be a disconnect in the Dept over some issues.

I will assure you, that while Choma may have ticked more than a few people off while he was a game warden, in his current position he must get it right or he may find himself in the Deputy Director's office. I have complete confidence that Choma will get the right answer over the aircraft issue. He drafted the new aircraft regulation, but not before consulting the Attorney General and the Deputy Director in Cheyenne, who is Brian Nesvick. He could help with this question also.
 
I will contact one or both of them and report back. Incidentally, I was at a function with Rep. & Speaker of the House Kermit Brown as well as Senator Phil Nicholas and asked them about their interpretation of these regulations. Both indicated that use of a private aircraft to access public lands for the purpose of hunting would not constitute a violation. Unfortunately, that's not how the guys in the field see it.
 
Jeff/Buzz
I left a message for Mr. Choma after you sent the message recommending him. I heard nothing back. I left another message last week and today he called me back (he was in the field). Either he is just telling you what you want to hear or there was a miscommunication. It is his opinion that it is NOT legal to fly a private aircraft onto public land for the purposes of hunting unless you wait 24 hours after flying. He feels that this is due to the need for "fair chase." He did not specify how using a private aircraft solely for transportation would constitute a breach of "fair chase" but it seems clear that a pilot flying an aircraft is presumed to be scouting even if he says he is not and there is no evidence to suggest that he did.
I asked about the way the law is written regarding "...or any other aircraft used solely for passenger transport." He told me that if a person hires a commercial or chartered plane to take him to a hunting lodge, he can hunt the same day because the purpose of the flight was to transport him to the lodge. In contradistinction, if I fly myself onto a land-locked State section, the purpose of that flight is not transportation, it is to go hunting, which is not legal...see the distinction? Me neither.
I'm not an attorney, but if a pilot has a GPS track that clearly shows they flew directly from their home base to a corner of State land without overflying the area they intended to hunt, landed and secured the plane, and went hunting on that section the same day, it would seem difficult to make an argument that anything other than transportation took place.
Mike was friendly and advised me of his opinion and interpretation, but I really don't think that's what the law currently "says." Based on this concept of any private flight being considered scouting, I'd have to agree with "Hi-Flyer" that the addendum to the law prohibiting all scouting during hunting season is likely to preclude private flight entirely.
Mike suggested that I obtain a "special use permit" for camping on state land, fly in, camp 24 hours and then hunt. I have no idea if such a permit would be granted and neither did he.
 
Tom, thanks for the heads up here, I will definitely get some answers to clarify this. This is not what was explained to me, but somehow we must clarify this issue on flying and hunting, when scouting is not involved. To me, it is just another 'motorized vehicle' when used just to get you there.

And the "special use " permit from the state; don't hold your breath on that. Recreation is bottom of the list for state land rules.

Jeff
 
>Tom, thanks for the heads up
>here, I will definitely get
>some answers to clarify this.
>This is not what was
>explained to me, but somehow
>we must clarify this issue
>on flying and hunting, when
>scouting is not involved. To
>me, it is just another
>'motorized vehicle' when used just
>to get you there.
>
>And the "special use " permit
>from the state; don't hold
>your breath on that. Recreation
>is bottom of the list
>for state land rules.
>
>Jeff

Jeff---Wouldn't your Attorney General be the place to go for their interpretation of the law. The one explained to Tom by your G&F person sounds like a court case in the making for a private plane owner!
 
TG

I don't think the current regulation needs any interpretation.

Judges are famous for taking written law literally.

Chapter 2, Section 12 on use of aircraft ends with this sentence:

"Nothing in this Section shall apply to commercial, commuter or other aircraft used for the sole purpose of passenger transport."

How anyone can read a different meaning into that is beyond me.
 
>TG
>
>I don't think the current regulation
>needs any interpretation.
>
>Judges are famous for taking written
>law literally.
>
>Chapter 2, Section 12 on use
>of aircraft ends with this
>sentence:
>
> "Nothing in this Section shall
>apply to commercial, commuter or
>other aircraft used for the
>sole purpose of passenger transport."
>
>
>How anyone can read a different
>meaning into that is beyond
>me.


I agree 100% with you on the way that section reads and I don't know how the top guy could come up with what he told Tom. That's exactly why some higher-up needs to rule on how it will be enforced and it's best to do that in black and white so that any Officer that might be involved in following up a possible violation knows how to handle it. After retiring from 30+ years in LE and being involved in numerous court cases that I filed on various violations, I can tell you it's not up to you or me to decide the interpretation. That's why the top guy (Attorney General) in each state is there standing by to make written rulings since a Prosecuting Attorney would have to file against someone for an alleged violation. Those attorneys look to the AG for advice in how to handle things so there is some form of uniformity across the state, even though sometimes it doesn't look like it! That way if a case moves before a Judge what you stated should occur 99% of the time. That would make it much smoother for both pilots and enforcement officers to know what is allowed or not.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-15 AT 10:01PM (MST)[p]Regarding the idea of contacting the Attorney General: I agree that this seems like the thing to do, but I've been there, done that (last year). I called the office and asked about getting an interpretation of the regulation. I was told that the AG does, in fact, do that, "but only upon the request of an elected or appointed official." As a basic Wyoming resident, I can't query the AG on this matter.
So that's when I contacted my state Rep Mr. Kermit Brown and state Senator Phil Nicholas. As they are both elected officials, I figured they might be willing to put the question to the AG. They both advised me that doing so would be much like asking a plaintiff's attorney whether he thought the plaintiff was in the right on their case...they felt that the AG would support whatever the G&F Department was doing. Both said that the regulations already indicated that flying for transportation was OK and did not require a 24 hour wait, and they offered to introduce legislation to make that more clear if it wasn't already. Nothing came of this afterward as they are presumably both quite busy and (as they stated) they felt the law already said it was OK to fly in and hunt. Kermit (who is a pilot) actually got pretty hot about it saying that he didn't want Wyoming to become like Alaska on that matter.
So I then hired an attorney to review the regulations and to give me an idea of what my chances would be in court if I use the plane to access land and went hunting, but not scouting, then got a citation. I was told that they basically agree with my arguments, and that they would be willing to defend me if I wound up in court (last time I represented myself...and was successful, but in retrospect that was a bad idea as the judge warned me during the case that even though the citation was only for $220, it was a criminal case and loosing could mean a fine up to 1000 dollars and/or jail time...yikes!)
That's where I left it...thinking about a case of civil disobedience this season to get a precedent-setting ruling.
Then I saw this thread on the forum and got to know you fine folks! I'm not sure if you (Jeff) spoke with Mike, or of Mike reads these forums, but he called me back today and feels that he sees some of my points on the matter and he will be posing the question to the AG himself. He was talking about perhaps allowing flight access at night when scouting couldn't occur, with hunting allowed the next morning, but I told him that from a flight safety standpoint, that was not going to work...it's already a bit risky to land in the day, a night approach and landing would be suicide in the backcountry. Anyway...it's moving forward, and I may be able to avoid becoming a "test case." Thanks.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-15 AT 08:01AM (MST)[p]I would keep pressing the issue until Mike comes around to the way the law is intended and not what "he" would like to allow or disallow. It sounds like he's leaning to the "everyone is guilty", rather than the other way around for the legal use of an aircraft. I also didn't mean to infer that an individual should be contacting the AG. That would be up to the G&F since they are the people that are enforcing the statute. Doing so as a citizen would be exactly as you stated and they wouldn't want to get involved with an individual situation, since that's what you pay an attorney for. Good luck!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-15 AT 09:01AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-15 AT 09:01?AM (MST)

Tom

I sent Mike an email after I read your post about talking to him. Fellow BHA member Buzz H and I also discussed this yesterday and reaffirmed that we felt the transport issue was previously discussed and resolved for the new proposed regulation. However, it may not be the regulation that's in question.

Here is the state statute 23-3-306(a) (a) "No person shall harass, pursue, hunt, shoot, or kill any Wyoming wildlife except predatory animals with, from, or by use of any aircraft, automotive vehicle, trailer, motor-propelled wheeled vehicle, or vehicle designed for travel over snow. No person shall use any aircraft, to aid in the taking of any Wyoming wildlife, except predatory animals, whether by spotting or locating the wildlife, communicating with any person attempting to take the wildlife, or by providing other aid to any person taking the wildlife. Nothing in this subsection shall apply to the use of any aircraft by governmental agencies, their employees, contractors or designees performing any lawful duties. The commission may exempt handicapped hunters from any provision of this subsection."

This is where your problem is and requires AG opinion. G&F regulation currently does clarify this, but the new wording does not; it is more in step with statute. Be aware that the current regulation oversteps on the scouting issue, which started this whole process to clarify aircraft and scouting.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-15
>AT 09:01?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-15
>AT 09:01?AM (MST)




or by providing other
>aid to any person taking
>the wildlife.


This seems like a wide loop open to interpretation to me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-15 AT 10:44AM (MST)[p]> or by providing other
>>aid to any person taking
>>the wildlife.
>
>
>This seems like a wide loop
>open to interpretation to me.
>


Unfortunately many times they stick extraneous things like that into a law or reg and all it does is exactly what you mentioned!
 
Yes. You are correct. After my court case was concluded, the prosecuting attorney who had been somewhat aggressive and accusatory during the case suddenly was very pleasant and talkative as though the entire thing didn't just happen (attorneys are funny that way). He told me he hates doing G&F cases because the regulations and statutes are intentionally vague so as to provide latitude to the wardens. But he complained that while it grants latitude in the field, it makes his job in court quite difficult at times.
 
Having latitude in the field and then not using some common sense in how you do the job very often leads to what you experienced and that's why he probably stated what he did after the case was dismissed. How the G&F GW could cite you when you're still at the plane and haven't even started hunting is leaving me shaking my head if that's what happened and what they cited you for!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-15 AT 02:12PM (MST)[p]Topgun'

Don't you claim 30 yrs of LE and you don't think there could be more to this story than the one side you have heard?

It completely amazes me that someone shows up on this forum, bad mouths G&F and their word is taken as gospel! There IS more to this story and there is more to the proposed new regulation on using an aircraft for transportation to the field. Some may choose to stick their heads in the sand or they can participate in the process and make it better. Others meanwhile, might just want to cause problems.

Either way, the G&F is working toward a regulation that's been due for a long time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-15 AT 02:41PM (MST)[p]Jeff---Please note that in my last post I stated "IF" THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED, which certainly doesn't mean that I've taken anything that Tom has stated as gospel! You know what you were told and you can't say what Mike told Tom because you weren't there. IMHO "IF" what Tom stated he was cited for was true and it was then tossed out of court for exactly what we're talking about, I would certainly also be raising hobb over the statute. There should be a court record of his case if you care to follow it up in your belief that the whole situation isn't as he stated. I believe you even made a comment regarding GWs and their ambiguity on corner jumping enforcement or lack of same. I fail to see how bringing up what has been brought up on this thread is causing problems, but rather trying to rectify situations before they develop by bringing potential loopholes to the forefront and getting them rectified so everyone, both the G&F GWs and pilots, are on the same page as to what can and can't be done by air. The question you posed is really a classic as if you were flying straight to a landing spot you say it is not classified as scouting, as such, and it's pretty hard to fly and land with your eyes closed! Now if I saw that buck and then circled to get coordinates and see if I wanted to shoot him, that would obviously violate the intent of the law. I'm all for eliminating scouting in the air and hope that things are worked out so it can be enforced uniformly and with some common sense. During my career I worked a lot for our state in conjunction with other state's regulators in updating and creating new laws and regulations in the field of weights & measures that are enforced throughout the US in NIST Handbooks 44 and 130. I can tell you it's not easy putting something on the books because it seems that someone or something always comes up with a "what if"!
 
Frankly, I'm not sure how this process has got to the point it has without the 'arm chair quarterbacks' being involved.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-15 AT 05:01PM (MST)[p]Whom might you be referring to when you use the term "arm chair quarterbacks" Jeff? IMHO it never hurts to get any and all comments out in the open before something is passed to try and eliminate problems before they can occur. That's why there are usually comment periods here in the US for the general public to weigh in with their various perspectives before a law is passed because you never know when something that is brought up out of the blue will change how things are viewed and then formalized. After all, that is how the democratic process is designed. You yourself have stated that the wording or meaning regarding what we're talking about needs to be clarified by the G&F and/or AG.
 
I do appreciate your concerns regarding the potential "one sidedness" of the comments made on my part. While it is certainly just my side of the story, it is fairly similar to what another pilot on the forum indicated previously. I chose to go to court, he did not. It was not a "major case" by any measure. If anyone wants to look it up, it was Case CT-2013-0009880, which took place in Laramie at the Albany Circuit Court January 17, 2014.
I am in no way intending to "bash" G&F Wardens. I do have a somewhat anti-government/stay out of my business mentality (made worse by our current federal administration's behavior/executive orders)...but on a local level, I work with LEO's on a regular basis and count many as my friends and patients. I do have a problem with one G&F office (Laramie) telling me one interpretation of the law/regulation, and another office (Cheyenne) choosing to enforce it differently (part of the problem with vague laws). I also have a problem with any official making an assumption that all pilots operating their own planes enroute to hunting areas are "scouting" any more than other hunters driving their trucks. The fact that I was charged with "did hunt within 24 hour after flying, violation of Big Game Regulations not listed elsewhere" (I'm reading off the citation) even though I never started hunting also bothers me. I used the following analogy with the judge: If a Wyoming Highway Patrol is in a coffee shop and overhears a kid in the next booth boasting that his car is real fast and he's going to go out on I-80 and take it up to 150mph, he can (and probably should) introduce himself and advise that such action will land the kid in jail. But he most certainly should not cite the driver for traveling 150mph on I-80. The intent to hunt is not the same as hunting.
Anyway, I'll continue to work toward a clear understanding of what the law is, along with what I hope to be a piece of paper I can present to any LEO I encounter in the field explaining this particular issue. Hopefully it will be concluded in a non-ambiguous manner.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-15 AT 08:59PM (MST)[p]Wow! Unbelievable! Cited for "hunting" and no hunting ever occurred! I better be really careful while hunting antelope in Wyoming this year. I may get a citation for something I didn't even do.
 
Just an update on this issue. Mike Choma was able to query the Attorney General and got a response about two weeks ago. According to the AG's interpretation, the way the current statutes and regulations read, a pilot may use his/her aircraft to access land-locked public lands and hunt the same day, so long as no scouting takes place. Transporting a passenger in to hunt with them or alone would not constitute "assisting a hunter in the taking of game" so long as you only provide transportation, not locating game. Mike recommended that I activate a GPS track upon departing the airport and then record the track as the aircraft flies to the corner of the public land section, then save the GPS track for later, in case anyone questions my actions that day. In the event that (during approach and landing) the species that is to be hunted is seen from the aircraft in the section you are hunting, you must then abort the plan (or, if camping is allowed, go ahead and land, but then wait 24 hours before hunting).
I was very happy with the decision. My only concern is that I'm basically in a similar position that I was in when I flew for hunting a couple years ago and got cited. I have a verbal decision with nothing in writing (same as what I got from the Laramie office that was disputed by the Cheyenne office last time). But Mike said he would create a memo and send it to all G&F LEO's in the state, and Mike is also in a much greater position of authority on the matter than the last person from whom I got this interpretation. I'm thinking I'll give it a few weeks, and see if perhaps the Laramie office can give me a copy of the memo to carry with me in the aircraft.
Anyway, I think this has been resolved, so long as everyone "gets the memo." Thanks to all who have assisted in this endeavor. Happy Hunting (and flying).
 
I heard the other day the G&F is tabling the issue until next spring and then they'll start taking public comments. I asked the warden how they intended to enforce the matter. He basically gave a shoulder shrug and said we'll do what we can...
 
>I heard the other day the
>G&F is tabling the issue
>until next spring and then
>they'll start taking public comments.
> I asked the warden
>how they intended to enforce
>the matter. He basically
>gave a shoulder shrug and
>said we'll do what we
>can...

From the beginning it was decided this would go into effect in 2016. This would give the G&F adequate time to get out the wording and intent. It was put in front of the Commission in April 2015 as a notification of regulation change.

To this point there has been an overwhelming majority in favor. You know the hunters who care about ethics. Then there are those that criticize the new reg because they say it will be hard to enforce. In most cases these are guys who can't find big animals by themselves and need outfitters who fly to help them.
 
Just to be clear, my issue was not in regards to the new regulation, it was about the interpretation and enforcement of existing regulation preventing use of a private aircraft to access otherwise landlocked parcels of public land. Not for finding game animals.
Regarding drones, since they can't be used for transportation and actually pose quite a risk for low-flying (occupied) aircraft, I would certainly be in favor of restrictions on their use for hunting. As to the season-long ban on scouting from an aircraft, that is essentially unenforceable, so it probably doesn't matter much.
 
>Just to be clear, my issue
>was not in regards to
>the new regulation, it was
>about the interpretation and enforcement
>of existing regulation preventing use
>of a private aircraft to
>access otherwise landlocked parcels of
>public land. Not for finding
>game animals.
>Regarding drones, since they can't be
>used for transportation and actually
>pose quite a risk for
>low-flying (occupied) aircraft, I would
>certainly be in favor of
>restrictions on their use for
>hunting. As to the season-long
>ban on scouting from an
>aircraft, that is essentially unenforceable,
>so it probably doesn't matter
>much.

Once the new reg is in place in 2016, aircraft(drones included) will not be allowed for scouting between Aug 1- Jan 31

Tom, I can't wait till someone turns in an aircraft that is flying over game animals and turns out they are hunting or looking for someone else who is hunting. I would take Choma's advice and use a GPS when you fly to hunt in 2016 or you could be in another fix.
 
I certainly will take his advice, but I had a GPS track last time too and it showed that I never over-flew the area we ended up landing at (until landing on a corner). The warden who responded didn't agree with the concept as described to me by the Laramie office. I worry that the same type of thing may happen. Hopefully not.
On the new regs and scouting thing, the problem is that even if a law against scouting from aircraft is passed, it will remain legal to fly an aircraft low over anywhere in the state and look at wildlife (so long as the plane is not making multiple passes and obviously harassing game). They could say they're looking at trees, landing sites, rock formations, doing photography, or any number of other things. Then there is the issue of identifying the pilot based on the plane's registration number alone. Many planes are flown by large numbers of people...hard to know who to try and prosecute unless they land on site or are caught landing at a local airport after the fact...but how to do that? Scouting and talking with a hunter on the ground during the flight is already illegal with current regulations. I'm just not sure how the new regs will help much (except the valuable part about drones not being allowed for hunting).
 
The way I see it the new regs won't be any harder to enforce then the current 24 hr waiting period. Same issues; who's the pilot, who's he talking to, and so on.

You can make the same noise as Triple, but bottom line is where are your ethics when it comes to hunting and scouting from an aircraft? Those that complain about the new reg are mostly those that fly, scout and hunt.
 
With all due respect, it's a completely different animal. With the current regs, and 24 hour waiting period, A warden sees a plane overfly a herd of elk, the plane comes back and lands near the herd. The occupants get out and head out to hunt those same elk they just scouted. Very clear situation/violation.
Now with the new regs: A pilot (who has a hunting license...like lots of people in this state) is out flying and makes a couple passes over a herd of elk, then continues flying for the morning. Scouting? Hard to say, impossible to prove, because flying over a herd of elk (even during hunting season and after passing the new regulation) is not illegal.
I see elk, deer, moose or antelope on virtually every flight I take into the mountains with my bush plane. I have photographed them, made videos, showed them to friends, but actually, I probably only get time to go hunting about every third season or so. I've taken plenty of pictures of moose, but I'll never hunt one...reminds me too much of my horses.
To suggest that most people who feel the new regulation would be hard to enforce have jaded ethics and like to scout game from the air for hunting is really a stretch. I have no idea why you feel that way. I just think the regulation will not add much to what's already written for protecting game and maintaining "fair chase," and might cause some pilots to get harassed for no reason.
 
I'm not a pilot and not a resident of Wy.

But, could one file a flight plan of where they are leaving from and coordinates of where they intend to land prior to flying, ideally over 24 hrs ahead of time. Assuming you have GPS with no deviation from course, this would be transportation. Ideally, even if deer/elk/etc are in the landing strip before or after you land, without deviation, you aren't using the plane as an aid to finding the game?
 
That's certainly a valid point. In reality, if you land a plane within earshot of a heard of anything other than domestic livestock, they are probably "outa there" anyway. I think your proposal might work, but I don't think local wardens would "go for it" if they saw a plane land among game animals, even if a flight plan was saved by the pilot and presented to them. You would probably get a citation, but might have a chance in court using the arguments you propose.
At this time, I'm comfortable with the ruling obtained from the AG, I think that allows people to use their planes/helicopters strictly for transportation to access land-locked public land without automatically being considered "scouting." Hopefully, the local wardens who are responsible for enforcement agree with that decision.
 

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