WY HB124 being heard...

BuzzH

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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Tomorrow Wyoming HB 124, the transfer of preference points bill, is being heard in Committee by the Travel, Recreation, Wildlife Committee...

Here's the list of the committee members:

[email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected]" target="_blank">[email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected]" target="_blank">[email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]);

If you dont want your points, either as a resident or Nonresident, devalued by this abuse of legislative authority...let them know.

As written this bill allows anyone, for any reason to pass their points on to a family member:

(m) The holder of any valid big game preference
10 points may, once in the holder's lifetime, apply in writing
11 to the department to transfer his currently accumulated
12 preference points for one (1) or more species to a
13 specified recipient who is an immediate family member in a
14 format as established by commission rule and regulation.
15 Any preference points transferred in accordance with the
16 provisions of this subsection shall be for the same species
17 as the preference points donated and shall be transferred
18 to a recipient with the same residency status as the
19 donating person. The preference points shall be
20 transferred by the department to the specified recipient
21 for a fee of thirty-five dollars ($35.00) per species. Any
22 preference points donated and transferred under the
23 provisions of this subsection shall not be sold, purchased,
24 traded, auctioned or offered for any monetary value and
2013 STATE OF WYOMING 13LSO-0352
5 HB0124
1 shall not be issued to, or used by, any person other than
2 the specified recipient. Preference points transferred to
3 a recipient shall be subject to all other limitations and
4 restrictions on preference points as if the recipient
5 earned the preference points as otherwise provided by law.
6 For purposes of this subsection, "immediate family member"
7 means a spouse, child or stepchild.

Looks like this one will also be a break even, or no net gainer for the Department...and in all likelyhood cost the WYG&F additional funds they dont have.

The bill Sponsors are:

House:Baker, Filer and Larsen and Senator(s) Barnard and Hicks

Their contact information is:

[email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

This bill is being heard in committee tomorrow morning at 7:30 am and I will be attending. I know its last minute, but thats how they do things over in Cheyenne, trying to slip stuff like this through. The committee will be meeting in room H-10.

If you value you're acquired preference points, I'd suggest sending in some feedback.
 
emailed telling them that it should go in file 13 and should never have hit the building to begin with! Thanks for keeping us in the loop Buzz!
 
Topgun,

Thank you, you're definitely in the 1% of sportsmen that take the time to be involved with these type of issues.
 
Whoa Whoa! So if I have max points and my spouse has max points, then if one of us transfers to the other, we would have double the points???!!

Boy, that doesn't open a huge door for abuse, now does it!

Thanks for the heads up, Buzz!
 
Speechless, how could they even propose something like this????

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?

"It is my penis, and I will wash it as fast and as long as I want to!" :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-13 AT 07:06PM (MST)[p]Yep, thats exactly what it would open up.

Combine that with a new Resident Preference point system for deer, elk, and antelope...the potential for abuse is really staggering.

It could be MUCH worse than just a husband-wife deal. People could apply their kids, have their kids transfer their points to say Mom...who could then in turn transfer all of her points to her Husband...who could then transfer his points to yet another Family member.

The max point pools are going to increase big-time...I believe max for sheep and moose is currently 17. It wont be uncommon for max point pools to now be 25-30+++.

That sure will put the screws to draw odds for those that have "max" points (17) and no family members to share points with.

There is exactly one thing more unfair than preference systems, and thats changing the rules down the road.

If this passes, I'll jump to the front of the sheep line, wayyy ahead of those with only 17 points. My wife will jump wayyy ahead of those with max moose points.

Its a joke, and the reason why the legislature should stay the bloody-hell out of Game and Fish issues. All they do is create a damned mess.
 
You also realize that when the resident PP system goes in I will jump ahead of all residents when I move there... So then I could just have my wife give her points, my dad, etc.

Even if this does not go, I would still be able to use my wifes points for averaging. So the most a resident may have next years is 1 point. I move with my 7... Draw a top tag. Then next year when all residents have 2 points I will average with my wife and have 4. Then the next year I will average with my dad and 4 again and resident only have 3....

This is why you need to step back get rid of all the current proposals and create a system that avoids this abuse and allows for the needs/wants of the residents to be met.
 
this is stupid.... I am getting close to max points for sheep and moose and I just want to draw like everyone else.

if something like this went through I might get a tag in 50 years from now........
 
I wrote everyone listed above, and expressed my opposition to this ridiculous proposed legislation. While I was at it, I told them to vote against SF 0085. I also told them to inquire about Mr. Hick's agenda.

Good luck tomorrow Buzz. Thanks for taking your time to go and express your opposition to this Bill.
 
What if it was rewritten to allow one person the option of passing his/her points onto a child and that child could not receive any points from another parent. In the case that a child had already built preference points for the species in question, he would lose those points previously built.

The current suggested rule is just plain crazy because of the number of loopholes. However, I could see how passing your points down to a child might have some merit, especially when that child could not double up on points. It would give the benefit of getting youth involved (in the case of just a couple of points) and it would also keep people from going to the grave with a pile of worthless points.
 
How about no points? Solves your "rewritten" suggestion, doesn't it. That way, maybe kids would have equal chances when they get old enough to hunt.
 
I thought about the passing of points to a minor child, once, from one parent might have some merit.

Just having family members donate points is crazy. Who is behind this garbage, who sponsored this bill? It would be interesting to find out who is in the shadows.

Thanks for watching. Will start sending emails. Where is MDF, SFW, RMEF?

Rich
 
I just saw this one and sent an email, I might be late, bummer. I hope to read good news soon that it was a bad dream.
Thanks Buzz for your efforts, it does seem that when they are doing something shady they run it through as fast as they can.

DZ
 
I emailed these guys and tried to remain civil about it, as difficult as it was. I would ask what they're thinking but it's apparent that they aren't.




Semper Fi
 
ya I agree. transferring points is crazy. I am just saying if they were going to let you transfer anything it should be the tag after you have used your points to draw it. I would love to draw a good license and give it to my son someday
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-13 AT 11:16AM (MST)[p]All committee members e-mailed here. Hard to bite my tongue and keep my letter civil, but I did so.

BuzzH, You might want to clean up that e-mail list to make it easier for guys to cut & paste. There are some errors in there.

Thanks for alerting everyone and posting the committee list.

I would advise nonresidents to omit your location, but list all conservation orgs you belong to. Has gone a long way to getting my prior emails noticed.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-13 AT 11:33AM (MST)[p]I just got this reply from Rep. Freeman:

"The bill was laid back this morning and I doubt that it will come out again this session."

Pretty impressive to get a personal response within one hour.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Great news. I hope Buzz can get this joker out of office. Wish I could cast a vote to do so. Maybe some day I will be able to make the move to Wyoming.

DZ
 
Hehe, me too! Amazingly fast response! I'll bet Hicks is doing a slow burn about now!!! Let's hope we can keep on them and knock his socks off on the other Bills too!
 
BTW; I had to eliminate some of the bogus email addresses to ge it to go but I sent them my thoughts.

This wasn't "thought through thoroughly" or they would have seen the open-door for abuse. It would turn a can of worms into a barrel of rotting worms!

I'm glad it was sent back and hope it never gets traction!

Thanks Buzz.

Zeke
 
I also had to sift through that list, but got it done individually because I'm not high tech enough to know any other way! Again, thanking Buzz and anyone else that will keep us NR up on stuff so we can help wherever possible.
 
Just walked in the door from Cheyenne...this one wont be making it out of committee.

Several people testified against this bill, including me, and there were 3 committee members that said they were "pounded" with emails last night and today.

So, thank you all for addressing this bill. There was discussion whether to kill it, or allow some interim discussion and gather more information, get more public comments etc. They decided to "lay back" the bill, just like Zim stated.

I think this one will be back around in the future...but we're good for now.

I apologize for the crappy link with the names, I'll try to clean that list up for future reference.

One other thing, after HB124 was discussed, the committee asked most of us who testified what we thought of SF85, the preference point bill for Resident elk, deer, and antelope.

I can tell you for 100% fact, that the committee is largely on the fence with this one. In my opinion, many seem reluctant to support a preference system for resident elk, deer, and antelope. HB124 may have helped drive home the point that Preference Point systems are prime for corruption.

Despite what one poster on here said, that he wasnt buying the arguement that youth hunters are negatively impacted by preference systems is dead wrong. That was brought up by several of the committee, and they are buying that arguement.

So, if there are Resident hunters that want their voices heard on establishing preference points for elk, deer, and antelope...I'd highly recommend you send your comments in NOW.

I know many hunters feel like their voices carry no weight, but thats just not the case. This committee heard you all loud and clear.

Thank you to all that took the time to comment. Also thanks to Founder for providing a place to share information on these type of things.

I'll try to do a better job of keeping up on the bills this session, we have no choice if we want to maintain our wildlife resources and hunting heritage.
 
SB-085 Vote NO

Thanks Buzz. Wish I could have made it over to testify today.

I just emailed the committee to vote no on SB-085. I cc'd Mr. Hicks on that email. I also emailed about 40 resident hunting buddies and shared my email to the committee. I cc'd Mr. Hicks on that one as well and encouraged them to do the same.

I might add that if you email the committee, put the bills name and your desired vote in the subject line of your email (SB-085 Vote NO). Tell them that more information needs to be gathered concerning the attitudes of Wyo Sportsmen on the PP issue. There also needs to be a concerted effort put forth to look at alternative ideas (wait periods, bonus points or leave as-is, etc.) that could benefit the many instead of the few.

Thanks again for your efforts and thanks to everyone who wants to pass on the hunting heritage that Wyo is so proud of.

-Cade
www.HuntForeverWest.com
 
Don't post on MM much anymore, but I have been actively emailing my representatives on these issues. It's amazing the hear-say that goes through these committees. Some members actually believed nonresidents were hunting Little Mtn elk every 2 to 3 years because of pref points.

Was glad to get the email that 124 had been tabled!

What is everyone's opinion on Burns' amendment to increase the pref points for deer, elk & antelope from $10 to $20? That will mean an extra $240 a year for my family just to apply.
 
Thanks BuzzH! If you think it will be coming back around, my wife will start buying PP this coming year for moose and sheep.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-13 AT 04:29PM (MST)[p]I dont know that something similar will ever gain enough traction, but it could.

The problem with preference systems, bonus point systems, etc. is that before long they all get corrupted into something different than they started being.

Look at MT...went from a straight bonus point system to a system that squares bonus points.

Utah went from non-residents only being apply to apply for ONE once-in-a-lifetime species and either deer, elk, or antelope to now a non-resident can apply for ALL species.

Wyoming has talked of splitting preference/random for moose and sheep to a 50-50 verus 75-25 split.

The list goes on and on and on...

The reason why these point systems are changed down the road is because people realize (much too late), that they're in a ponzi-scheme that will take decades to get out of, if they ever do. I'm quite sure the 116 resident hunters sitting on 18 years worth of sheep points never thought they'd still be waiting for a sheep tag in 2013. Yet...they surely are. The 10,000+ behind them are fooling themselves if they think they'll ever make the max point pools. I'd hate to be one of the 1805 people with only one point...WOW!

There may be ways to make sure that the very, very few people who are drawing a disproportinate number of hard to draw tags can be reduced...but preference point systems are not the answer.

I also think its high time that hunters just realize that there are certain tags, and certain animals, they just flat may not ever get a chance to hunt.

Like I said, I'm open to waiting periods, once-in-a-lifetime, and other options...but Preference point systems are a joke.
 
> I'm
>quite sure the 116 resident
>hunters sitting on 18 years
>worth of sheep points never
>thought they'd still be waiting
>for a sheep tag in
>2013.

Buzz, as I'm sure for are aware, a lot of very good bighorn sheep areas last year had a 100% draw for both resident & non-resident sheep hunters. While you make some good points in your post, making the statement about hunters with 18 points waiting on a sheep tag is not a good example. If someone decides to sit on 18 points, I guess that they have a good reason or 1 specific area that they are interested in.
 
Sure, there were some areas that had 100% draw odds...big fuggin' deal.

Not everyone wants to hunt unit 1, 2, 3, or 4 for starters.

Secondly, a lot of those that were forced into preference systems when in their 50's or 60's....are now 70-80 years old and not able to hunt those units even though they have 100% odds of drawing.

The bottom line, is there will be hunters with 25+ points that still havent drawn a tag.

Another fallacy with the point system...that eventually you'll draw.

Not true unless you live to be 130 years old.
 
>Sure, there were some areas that
>had 100% draw odds...big fuggin'
>deal.
>
>Not everyone wants to hunt unit
>1, 2, 3, or 4
>for starters.
>
>Secondly, a lot of those that
>were forced into preference systems
>when in their 50's or
>60's....are now 70-80 years old
>and not able to hunt
>those units even though they
>have 100% odds of drawing.
>
>
>The bottom line, is there will
>be hunters with 25+ points
>that still havent drawn a
>tag.
>

I really don't think that bighorn sheep hunting is for the road hunters in the crowd. Yes, area 1, 2, 3, 4 were 100%; and 5, 6, 9, and 22 were also 100%. Area 7& 8 were 70% & 78%. So, yes, it is a big fuggin deal. The Pref point system was not necessarily designed for only those people who want to hold out for an area that only has 2 tags & astronomical drawing odds. If you're so smart Buzz about everything, why don't you run for legislature. Or better yet, King.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-13 AT 10:10PM (MST)[p]I agree the point system wasnt designed for those people that only want a certain area.

The trouble is, many that likely wanted to hunt 1-5 are now in their 70's and 80's and are forced to pick units with easier access.

They're victims of having a preference point system shoved up their a$$ when they were in their 50's and 60's...and you're accusing them of being lazy whiners who only want certain areas.

Congratulations?
 
>I agree the point system was
>designed for those people that
>only want a certain area.
>
>
>The trouble is, many that likely
>wanted to hunt 1-5 are
>now in their 70's and
>80's and are forced to
>pick units with easier access.
>
>
>They're victims of having a preference
>point system shoved up their
>a$$ when they were in
>their 50's and 60's...and you're
>accusing them of being lazy
>whiners who only want certain
>areas.
>
>Congratulations?


Any data to back up your claim that the majority of hunters with max sheep points are in the 70's & 80's? Didn't know that G&F posted ages on-line. Or could it be possible that when someone points out a flaw in your argument that you simply make up chit in a vain attempt to save face.
 
You're right, everyone that started applying in 1995 under the point system was 12 years old...
 
I wonder what the number of sheep tags issued in 1994 was for these units and what were the odds? Lots has probably changed, more or less tags, higher prices for tags, and the big one...higher demand.

Preference points are definitely a tricky issue for sure, some love them and some hate them. They should let the state sportsmen vote on this one.

I often wonder about the thought that the main reason for not having points is because it is not fair for youth. If youth getting into the preference point game early (especially for OIL tags) actually will payoff when they are in their 40s and 50s and the older generation is retired from hunting. I know that is 30-40 years of points and sounds crazy even talking about that, but for a bighorn sheep tag they could still be young enough for the hunt and might not have that much money invested in the tag ($500-$1000), depending on the point price for residents. Could that be better for them than a low percentage random draw that they might not be able to enter yearly depending on school and jobs and family? For those entering that game in their 30s or 40s, they are definitely in bad shape.
 
Nope Buzz, I doubt they were all 12 yr old either.

nripepi: when the current PP system was implemented there were roughly double the amount of tags then there are now. I asked Harju, the G&F biologist at the time about a once-in-a-lifetime tag for sheep back then (mid-90's). He said it wouldn't work because they would eventually run out of hunters. (he wasn't very prophetic.)

At that time, the statistics indicated that after about 10 years, the system would work through all the top tier of pref point holders. The drop in # of sheep tags & later, moose tags, didn't help the situation.

I think the whole discussion about pref points is moot. The G&F will gain approx 400-$500,000 in additional revenue (using the numbers posted on the legislative website). When the legislators look at those numbers, they see help on resolving some of the fiscal problems with G&F and really don't care who does or doesn't like a pref point system. (could be wrong, but just my opinion). I think the $$$ was the real reason that the bill passed through the Senate by 29 to 1 and had nothing to do with what the legislators' constituency wanted. I know Bruce Burns a little, and he is a businessman first. He was the chair of the Senate committee & changed the fee from $10 to $20 dollars per pref point. A resident PP system will be a $$$ generator & they know it.
 
As I've stated all along. A pure pref pt system doesn't work very well in Wyo...especially for sheep and moose....the toughest tags in the Wyo to draw! No draw system will likely work with that senerio!

A pref/ bonus pt system with a % of tags going into a random draw where everyone has a chance to draw plus a pool of tags that gives those that have applied for tags more years works great in a system like Wyo deer, elk, and antelope where there is a large turn over of tags.

I'm super glad to be a Wyo nonres and draw deer, elk, and antelope tags on a regular basis!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-13 AT 09:01AM (MST)[p]The biggest fallacy on these threads about PP's is you have the Monster Muley Messiah, Buzz, and 3 or 4 of his disciples making post after post that the PP system will be a pure points system when there is nothing in the noted bill stating what kind of system will be adopted. You can make all the assumptions you want, but until it passes, yer just talking out yer azz. If it passes, I'd argue for a Nevada style system where points are squared for each year you apply. I'd say 40% of the tags should go to the top points holders. The remaining tags would be allocated to the other applicants with their odds and chances being based on their number of squared points. Then no one can say you'll never draw, or kids can't hunt, or my grandmother won't draw until she's 105 or any of the BS that's being posted. Nevermind that there are numerous general license areas for yer kid and grandmother to hunt and more left over licenses than most folks can count. Wait, listen for it...
 
Wow was I just called a "Buzz disciple"? I don't speak up all that often but I read most of what is said on here. I have had some heated conversations with Buzz as we don't see eye to eye on all views. But when I "think" he is on the right path I'm going to let him know. The same goes for the opposite. The same goes for anyone else. I do think you have a chip on your sholder against NR. I'm sure you are a 5th generation Wyoming guy and think no one but you and your family should live there. Just saying.

DZ
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-13 AT 10:12AM (MST)[p]Triple_BB,

Obviously you dont understand contract language...

I talked with Larry personally, face-to-face just yesterday, and there has been no discussion about other systems like you imply in your posts.

Do you care to explain how hunters are to to work around binding language passed by the Legislature?

Look, if there was room to negotiate via statuate and it was stated as such in the Bill, I'd not be hammering on this subject or Larry. But, when his bill passes, the negotiations are over, final, done. What we'll have is a preference point system just like the NR's have for all species, and also what Residents have for sheep/moose. READ THE BILL.

But, I'm not an idiot with the binders on, like you, who is only worried about something being passed so your odds are improved to draw a unit 87 deer tag.

I'd like to see the Resident Hunters, those with the most flesh in the game, have some public involvement about this bill, prior to it being shoved on us.

That hasnt happened.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-13 AT 10:29AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-13 AT 10:28?AM (MST)

Triple_BB,

Try this on for size...

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2013/Engross/SF0085.pdf

Now, with your reading glasses on, and best comprehension levels in the highest gear in your forward transmission,...pay attention to this language in particular:

(g) In addition to the authority granted under
16 subsection (b) of this section, the commission shall
1 through rule and regulation develop and implement a
2 preference point program for resident and nonresident
3 antelope, resident and nonresident deer and resident and
4 nonresident elk licenses which are limited in quota and
5 would otherwise be issued through a random drawing.

When you find that portion in the bill where it references anything other than a preference system...please post it up. I'd also like to see the portion where we're going to discuss any other point programs.

Remember, get them glasses out.
 
Buzz is exactly correct. There is no intention in the bill or by the bill supporters to consider anything except the current system for NR. It is not a good system, and will really cost a ton. The bill as written assumes that it will be the same system as the NR and that every thing will be great.

The other reason to oppose this is because it is about revenue and not about hunting. It is about $400,000 to $500,000. It will change hunting in WY forever and not leave any room to reconsider. Every state that has implemented a PP system goes for about 10 years before they realize what they set up is not working as they feel it should. Then all of the sudden they start to change things. Those changes often help some out and screw others. Why do you think that CO just went recently to allowing a few random tags for the highest units? Why do you think that CO just cut the % of limited entry tags for NR on the toughest units from 40% to 20%?

I am not a follower of anyone. In fact I was the first one to speak up against this situation. I have seen what has happened in CO, I can see what will happen in WY. I never have liked the idea that things will be done in hunting that do not align with good science, good practice, encouragement of new hunters, etc... This bill needs to be chopped and a true evaluation of hunting in WY needs to be completed.

Besides they just the NR and gave them one up the pie hole on tags cost so surely the $400,00 to $500,000 will not be as much of an issue.
 
MMM, point out the exact wording for that sez pure preferece points or will be identical to our current non resident PP system. I left my reading glasses somewhere else.

Here's to hoping it passes. And if its being done as Teepee noted to generate more money, more power to them. Let me know who's on the fence and I'll send out more emails supporting the measure.

Also its area 90. 87 has tanked in recent years...
 
Email sent. Thanks for the cleaner list. Paul's email could be cleaned up a little bit more.

DZ
 
Not only does the Wyo nonres pref pt system work great but so does Colorado! I've drawn 5 elk, 10 muledeer, and 4 antelope tags since I moved to Colo. I've also drawn 1 mtn goat and 1 bighorn tag....going on my 2nd for both species any year now!

My son just starting out hunting has drawn 1 elk, 2 muledeer, and 1 mtn goat tag in Colo. Yep, the Colo pref pt system may not be perfect but it is possible to draw great tags! Without a pref pt system I doubt if I would have drawn a fraction of these tags!

I think it's great that Colo and other states with draw systems are willing to change and improve their systems rather than sitting back and continuing to b*tch about how tough it is to draw tags!

Thank you Wyoming for offering pref pts to nonres...system works incredible for elk, deer, and antelope! Wyo residents are really missing out!
 
I see Triple_BB is still spouting his "me me me" philosophy! BuzzH stated earlier somewhere regarding a 3rd grader being able to write this Bill and that's about the size of it! It's nothing more than the law/language already in place that was done 7 years ago that drives the PP system the NRs are stuck with right now. All that has been done is striking out a word here and there and inserting "resident" to make it a total, comprehensive plan identical to the existing system now in place for all animals. Add the $10 or $20 max on a PP addition for the resident and that's it! It would "allow" rules to be generated if it's passed, but who in their right mind thinks the G&F Commission will do anything to change a system that can use their present computer program to go over into the resident draws without doing a thing as far as capital outlay to have the system in place for the 2014 draws? It sounds like one person on this thread and that's it!!! This is a bad BIll and now that I'm back in out of the winter weather we're starting to finally get up here I'm back on the puter sending more emails to this updated list of Legislators.

PS to Triple_BB--If you are lumping me in as a desciple of BuzzH or anyone else as far as that goes, you are sadly mistaken brother. However, I'll take your comment as a positive because I like to be on the correct side and it's that this Bill will bring nothing but bigger problems in the next few years just like the NRs face at the present time after just 7 years of "The Great PP Plan"!!!
 
Topgun, What exactly is wrong with the current nonres Wyo pre pt system for antelope, deer, and elk? Me and other nonres think it works fantastic! I keep drawing tags and expect to draw at least 1 or 2 more this coming year.

I hate to break it to you but Wyo nonres get a fraction of the tags issued to residents and I still draw a bunch of great tags! In fact, I probably draw more tags than most Wyo residents that apply for the same units!

Wyo nonres pref pt system works great!
 
jims---If a person is happy at drawing a tag with a couple PPs every year, then it's fine. When you start getting into a unit like I hunt for elk that isn't even mentioned anywhere and it takes 6-7 points in the regular draw to have a chance at that tag when I used to have an equal chance EVERY year at that tag, it SUCKS!!! That's why I quit buying elk PPs and just help a resident friend who draws a tag there almost every year.
 
Larry needs to be sent packing...so now another 10% of all big game tags are going to be reserved for archery only.

On top of all the tags reserved for landowner preference.

On top of all the tags reserved for NR's.

This chit has got to stop.

Any time a legislator gets involved all that comes from them is a big fuggin' mess...
 
Topgun,
Thanks for letting us all know that you are only interesting in applying for the toughest elk units in Wyo to draw. The chance for drawing those tags in your lifetime are pretty much 0 without some sort of draw system and improve...and sometimes in dramatic fashion with a pref/bonus pt system.

How about the other chunk of Wyo residents that choose not to apply for the absolute best units in Wyo to draw and prefer to hunt every year or 2 in great to excellent elk units? How about those Wyo residents that believe in a pref pt system where once you draw a tag you must go to the end of the line in the pref pt pool but still have a chance to draw a tag in the random draw pool?

Wyo's nonres pref pt system works great for me and I've drawn some absolutely incredible antelope, deer, and elk tags over the years! Thank you Wyo! I hope all Wyo residents continue to support some sort of pref/bonus pt system...you won't be disappointed!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-13 AT 03:59PM (MST)[p]jims,

From a purely selfish stand-point, I SHOULD be in favor of a preference point system for the following reasons:

1. I have no kids, so I should really care less about any future generations and how legislation like PP impact their draw odds or opportunities. In fact, I should do everything I can and support anything that would reduce the numbers taking up hunting. Less hunters equals more tags for me.

2. I've already killed more and bigger animals than 99% of the hunters out there.

3. I routinely, and almost effortlessly, kill bigger animals in OTC, leftover, and general tag units than 99% of the people who have tags in top units.

4. I've the money, time, and resources to hunt 10-12 states a year if I want (and I do).

5. I'm better at research, have better connections, etc. that will allow me to play the point game to maximize my opportunities over others.

The trouble is though...its a real bi tch having a conscience, tough for me to be a selfish plick like a majority of the whiners who dont care about anything other than drawing a tag once in their life.

Sad...but the reality of the world we live in.

Trust me, I wont be the loser if the preference point bill passes...count on it.
 
Speak for yourself... I hate PP draws and always have. So while you think it is great you have drawn a couple tags. It will not always work that way. I made a commitment 14 years ago to tag/area that I hunted when I was a kid. Well I am now at 14 points and still have 5-6 to go!
If it works dso great why are we always trying to fix it? Have you seen your favorite area go from every year, to every 5 years? have you seen an area go from being able to hunt it every 4-5 years go to hunt 1 time in your life?
 
Buzz,
I totally disagree with you on your first point! I actually have a son that is just getting into hunting. I hooked him on hunting because he draws Wyo antelope tags every year he can go and we have a blast! He has drawn 1 Wyo deer tag and has enough pts to draw a fantastic elk tag. I think it's great when young hunters can draw tags..and Wyo's current pref pt system works great!

The same is true in Colo! I enjoy hunting with my son and we draw great tags here as well. He's already drawn a Colo mtn goat tag and has a chance of drawing a sheep tag any year.

I am certainly glad both Colo and Wyo offer draw systems that enable both of us to draw great tags on a regular basis! Could we have drawn fantastic tags without pref pt systems....I highly doubt we would have drawn near as many of them and the tough draw units we likely never would have drawn!

Thank you Wyo for offering pref pts to nonres young hunters!
 
Elks96, why do you say it won't always work? I've been drawing Colo and Wyo tags for the past 18+ years and continue to draw super tags!

It's your choice to apply for the toughest units in Colo, Wyo, or anywhere! You can thank Garth, Eastman's, and others for making high demand tags even tougher to draw. What units do they recommend each year..probably the ones you apply for? Can you honestly say you have any chance of drawing a 201 or 2 tag in Colo in your lifetime with or without any pref pt system...I hate to break the news to you..but NO! I could have probably told you this about 15 years ago!

If you invested the same year's of pts into the NV or UT elk draw systems do you think you would stand an excellent chance of drawing a tag vs someone just starting out applying? Also, if all NV tags were issued in a random draw do you think you would have any chance of drawing any of these tags in your lifetime...H$LL NO...and in NV and UT's systems everyone stands a chance to draw tags each year.

ELKs96...do yourself a favor and take a look at the UT and NV draw stats.....NO BODY likes a whiner...and you may actually learn something!

I love Wyo's nonres pref pt system!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-13 AT 04:41PM (MST)[p]jims,

Maybe if Nevada, Colorado and Utah didnt give away all their tags to landowners, outfitters, governors tags, commission tags, RFW, CWMU's, sponsored NR's, etc. etc....yeah, maybe a random draw would work

But, when you start chopping up tag quotas to every interest group in the world...then DIY resident and Non-resident hunters start fighting over the scraps.

Next thing you know, we're asking for preference point systems so we dont fight over those scraps.

Thank you sir...may I have another?

Oh, and do yourself a favor and realize how many of the publics tags are given to the programs I mentioned above.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-13 AT 05:01PM (MST)[p]I am a whiner? Really get off your horse. I am against preference systems in general. No one person should have any preference over another. Do you really feel entitled to atag more so than my 12 year old daughter? The random draw is great. It treats everyone equal and as a result I prefer it over the other systems.

I hunt every year and find success that is not the issue. the real issue is that right now my daughter will never get to to hunt the unit I took my 1st elk in. She will be lucky to hunt my deer unit 1 time by the time she is out of youth tags. I grew up in those units, we live in those units.

Sure I could be some tool who thinks that a tag every 2-3 years in a unit where a rag horn four maybe a 5 point is awesome but I expect better than that.

I still get tags every year, but I would like my daughter to have the same chance at any tag she chooses when she turns 12. Its is great your happy with the WY PP system, of course you were probably happy drawing a unit that was 50-70 odds and killing an average bull as well...

Go for it. I went from hunting WY every year to only having 1 tag in 5 years. So my system went the opposite direction. It got harder for me to draw a tag.

I am sad to think that your definition of a great tag and mine are 2 completely different things. I am also certain that your definition of a quality hunt is far different than mine. I am also certain that your opinion of fair is far different than mine. I never had a problem with the old random draw. At least every year in it I had a chance. If my kids got hurt and I had doctors bill it and could not apply it did not take me out of the running the next year.

I do not understand why anyone needs preference over anyone else in hunting. Don't we already have enough of that crap with landowners tags, vouchers, PLO tags, and now we have to take the last great tag allocation left and force it into the system? when even the residents do not seem to want it...

the only real reason we had a stupid system in the first place was to support special interest groups in hunting. If you took away the PLO, the land owner vouchers, the RFW, auction tags, governors tags, etc. things would look a lot different in CO. The PP system was adopted for money and only money reasons...

While you may enjoy it and get "great" tags. I on the other hand do not like it wand would prefer a system where everyone applying was given a chance regardless of age, land ownership, money, etc.
 
jims---Please read and comprehend before you type responses as you're sounding like piper. How can you not understand that in a random draw you have a chance EVERY year to draw a tag in ANY unit you apply for compared to possibly never in a PP system unless you are in on the ground floor? The antelope and elk units that I hunt and have hunted for a long time were almost "gimmes" for a NR before the PP system was started 7 years ago. Now I have drawn the antelope tag twice since the PP system started and the only way I was able to get that second tag without waiting another 2 or 3 more years was to talk a guy with a bunch of PPs into partying with me so our average PPs got us the tag this past season. The elk draw was the same in that it's not a unit that is ever discussed anywhere, but now that tag is taking at least 5 PPs or more to draw. I AM NOT talking about any of the hyped units, just ordinary stuff, so imagine what the top hyped units have in store for unsuspecting people who thik PPs are great and want the same system!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-13 AT 11:27PM (MST)[p]Topgun,
The last time I checked Wyo's current nonres antelope, deer, and elk pref pt system everyone has a chance in the random pool and those with more pts draw tags in the pref pt pool.

Topgun, congrats on drawing 2 super antelope tags in 7 years....without pref pts you may not have drawn 1 tag! Do you think there are more nonres applying now than 7 years ago? Was there severe winterkill that caused a drop in tags? One of the muley units I hunt here in Colo offered 100 tags/season several years ago and currently offer only 10 after 2 horrible winters. Do you think that winterkill plus increase in number of applicants has anything to do with tags being tougher to draw these days?

The current Wyo nonres pref pt system works great if you aren't set on applying for the toughest units in the state to draw~!

Elks96, I would love to see your daughter draw the tags you hunted growing up! One thing to remember is that some sort of pt system may actually help her draw that tag. My son has drawn great tags and will continue to draw more with Wyo pref pts! I would expect you would be somewhat sick in the stomach if your neighbor drew 2 of those tags and your daughter 0? You forget that with Wyo's current resident random draw system everyone that draws tags have the same chance as your daughter. After a few years those tags and applicants that have drawn tags add up! If you think this is fair that's ok with me but there are a lot of people that would tend to disagree! Don't you think that your neighbor should step in back of the line or have less chance of drawing than your daughter?

You are absolutely right...without some sort of pt system your daughter may never draw high demand tags in Wyo!
 
All I ask for is that my daughter has the same chance as the next person. I could care less if my neighbor was lucky enough to draw a tag 2times because he got lucky. At least I also know that my daughter has the chance to do the same. Also the random pool is a joke. There are many pools that the random draw is lees than a 1% chance... When you look at it, you take an equal fair chance for everyone and force the unit into a 30+ year wait for just the max points to clean out. Also if your drawing a tag every other or every 3rd year, that means the tag likely was a high success rate prior to the points system. Again I do not doubt that you guys are happy with your tag allocation, on the flip side I seen unit I hunt start looking like there will be a 20+ wait to even have a shot...

The beauty of a true random system is that I have the same chance as every one else. This is true even if: I lost my job last eyar and couldn't pull the money to apply, it also is true if I screw up and miss the window, etc. It is also true if I have a really good friend who says lets try this easy to draw unit... On a random draw I have easy of choice. I can try for 3 years for a really hard tag, then on the 4th year a buddy and I can go to a different tag as a 1st choice and not loose my points.

Colorado is only going to get worse... We already gave another 10% to landowners, we are already starting to see elk tags cut back, deer tags are a joke, etc.
 
jims---You really CAN'T comprehend anything I've posted, LOL! I've told you twice now that the units I'm talking about were a good chance to draw almost EVERY year on a straight RANDOM draw. They ARE NOT super premium highly discussed unit, but rather just the opposite! Now they are taking 3-7 years to have a chance at ONE tag---DUH!!! Please READ CLOSELY BEFORE you respond again!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-13 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]Hey jims,

How well is that point system going to work out for you when NR quotas are cut to no more than 10%? You still going to draw your great tags every 2-3 years? I bet not.

Wyoming residents have the absolute statutory and legal means to adjust the NR quotas (both by Federal and State Law) to ZERO if we want to.

Maybe instead of running your mouth you should give that some thought...

Also, a resident point system doesnt impact you as a NR...I'm not asking you to give up your NR point system. Glad its working for you.

Residents feel differently...for lots of valid reasons.

My contention is that if we cut NR quotas to no more than 10% that the preference system will work a whole lot better for resident hunters...savvy?

Keep chirping big-bird.
 
triple_bb

You have to know that because the G&F is a gigantic bueracracy and has almost no ability to think outside the box we will end up with the same crappy system we have for moose, and sheep. Lets say we brainstormed and came up with a better system. Would the non residents then want their system to be like our system. SF0085 passes and we will have crap.
 
Wyoming population 512,000 with 40% identifing themselves as hunters = 208,000 resident hunters

Colorado population 5,116,000 with 25% of citizens identifying themselves as hunters =1,279,000 resident hunters.

Colorado probably has no choice but to have some kind of preference points system. Although I think Colorado's preference system is far inferior to those used in other states. A 201 rifle tag will take 117 years to draw if you start putting in for it this year. Imagine living in Maybell or Craig and knowing you'll never hunt elk in your lifetime in your backyard.

Because we are blessed with a low population Wyoming should try
Waiting periods(hunt areas with <10% 10 year wait, <20% 5 year wait, <30% 3 year wait, <50% 1 year wait.
Staggered draws(Le elk first, Le deer second, Le antelope 3rd)
Pick 1 LE species to put in for (like Utah residents)
or a combination of the above before we try the same crappy system for we use for sheep and moose. Make no mistake if 0085 passes it will be what we get.

To make odds better you have to take out applicants out of the draw, or add tags to the draw. Pref points do not change odds they just line out the order that people will draw.
 
I'm scratching my head wondering why I've heard several people comment that a Wyo resident deer, elk, and antelope pref pt system would be similar to sheep and moose? Unless I'm mistaken the current Wyo nonres pref pt system has a random and pref pt pool? Am I missing something?

Wyo's current pref pt system for elk, deer, and antelope works great for nonres and would work even better for Wyo residents...even if nonres tags are dropped to 10% and the WG&F goes bankrupt!
 
jims,

What part of Residents not wanting a preference point system dont you understand?

Or perhaps a bonus point system instead.

Or perhaps a waiting period.

Glad you like the NR system...the residents that arent in favor of a preference system for elk, deer, and antelope for the RESIDENT draw, are not asking the legislature to take away the NR system.

Savvy?
 
My son and I have drawn multiple great elk, deer, and antelope tags over the years and we love the nonres pref pt system! Wyo residents are missing out if they aren't willing to take advantage of it!
 
Yeah, we heard you the first 20 times you've mentioned that.

My wife and I have also drawn multiple great tags over the years in wyoming WITHOUT a preference point system...

So whats your point? (pun there).
 
jims---Here's a put up or shut up for ya! What are all the GREAT units that you and your boy have been able to draw in just six years that the PP has been in existence and you even keep saying you're due to draw more? I dont think either of you could have drawn more than one GREAT tag each for each of the three animals in that short amount of time figuring that you miss a year of applying when you burn your PPs on a first choice tag. That means you either drew one GREAT tag with 5 or 6 PPs in the last season or two or a couple of mediocre tags for each animal with only a couple PPs for each and are calling them GREAT tags! Drawing a tag in a unit with a couple or 3 PPs and calling it a GREAT tag might be that in your mind. However, if they were considered GREAT tags by more than yourself, you would only have drawn them once in the short time the NR PP system has been in existence!
 
I fully agree, he says the same thing about Colorado. Hoewver in the same time frame I have seen certain cow only hunts now grow to requiring a point. Not to mention all the special interest CO play too. If we got rid of Landowner tags in CO it would make a huge difference in PP games. But no we are all about the money. Which is why the PP system started in the first place.
 
Do you think I'm going to broadcast like Garth or anyone else where I hunt on the internet? If you want to come over to my house I'll show you some trophies from the past few years...but the word is MUM where I harvested them! I've drawn fantastic tags and they keep on coming!

Wyo's nonres and Colo's pref pt systems are fantastic and I'll keep drawing great units!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-13 AT 01:39PM (MST)[p]Just what I figured---you're full of chit because if they're top units like we're talking about, you aren't drawing them every two or three years, no way no how! Saying what they are wouldn't hurt your chances one dang bit unless you can draw them quickly with just a couple PPs right now. Take a hike because your posts are even more meaningless now than when you started, and we're gonna puke if you post that last sentence one more time with nothing to back yourself up with, LOL!!! PS: Incidentally, there's also no need for us to come to your house. Just post the pictures up here on this thread. You don't have to tell us where they came from, but even if you post nice animals it won't make you right on this whole debate because there are nice animals everywhere if you hunt hard and long enough!!!
 
All right jims, since you have the secret to drawing "fantastic", "super" tags, help me out with this. Here in Oregon the Wenaha any bull rifle tag is generally thought of as a "fantastic, super" tag. In 2012, 3051 applicants applied for 25 tags. 19 of those tags went to the top point holders, so the other 3022 applicants were applying for the other 6 "super" tags.

My college statistics are a little dusty, but I'm pretty sure that is 1 in 503 odds thanks to the point system. If it were a random draw like Wyoming my odds would be 1 in 121. This is the exact type of thing that Wyoming residents can expect for their hardest to draw tags if they adopt a point system like Oregon's or the WY NR system.

Now point systems work great for what most people would call average or good tags, where there are only 2 to 5 times the number of applicants as available tags. I suspect those are the types of tags you are drawing. But then again, when demand is that low, a random drawing probably works just as well over time.

I personally hunt a general season elk and low demand deer region in wyoming every year, and I too think they are "fantastic, super" tags. Here at home in Oregon, I apply for the average type tags because I like to actually hunt elk, and I realize that chasing a tag like the Wenaha is a fools mission, if you believe in statistics.

So enlighten me, how do I go about drawing a super tag like the Wenaha every few years with 1 in 503 odds?

B
 
As a NR who applies in every western state for virtually every species, I'd encourage you Wyoming residents to avoid a PP system for elk/deer if at all possible. These systems are like a drug addiction....they suck you in and keep taking more of your money, with basically nothing given in return.

Idaho went through this same battle 2 years ago, and their Legislature was told by rank-and-file hunters to stuff it. Hunters won that fight and I hope for your fellows' sake that you can do the same.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-13 AT 10:08PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-13 AT 10:01?PM (MST)

Banger, I think you already know the answer to your questions because I've already gone over them several times. Obviously the toughest units in the state will have impossible draw odds no matter what the system. You may never draw the OR elk tag you mentioned in your lifetime with any system.

Obviously every pt system has it's advantages and most will improve your odds significantly compared to the random draw the more years you apply. I think most Wyo residents are spooked about any pt system because they have seen how it has failed for super high demand tags such as Wyo moose and sheep....and seen the point creep take place in Colo.

I have a feeling few Wyo residents have researched other states and looked into different point systems and exactly how they work. It is obvious that some work way better than others and hopefully Wyo is willing to take advantage of this.

You seem pretty interested in stats and I'm sure you would likely admit that a system similar to NV's is pretty hard to beat? I'm not saying WY's nonres pt system is perfect but it works great for me!

The beauty about Wyo (ESPECIALLY FOR RESIDENTS) is the turnover of antelope, deer, and elk tags/hunters is super quick. For some reason Buzz and others can't comprehend that the turnover of tags for residents will be even quicker than nonres with pref pts and they may actually be able to draw even better tags more often with some sort of point system.

Obviously I don't apply for the toughest tags in Wyo to draw and I don't claim to draw super tags. I research, scout, and hunt hard and have excellent success in fairly easy draw units. I'm willing to put in the time and it's paid off for me! I think it's great to know how many pts I have and be able to plan out which tag I will likely draw in any given year.

I guess it's up to Wyo residents to decide if it bugs them when guys draw back to back tags and they continue to draw few to nothing. My Wyo buddies complain to me about this all the time! I know for a fact I wouldn't draw near the tags I've drawn in Wyo without pref pts. I know this is true because I hardly drew any tags when I was a Wyo resident!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-13 AT 10:33PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-13 AT 10:32?PM (MST)

I guess it's up to Wyo residents to decide if it bugs them when guys draw back to back tags and they continue to draw few to nothing. My Wyo buddies complain to me about this all the time!

Birds of a feather...

Maybe get some new buddies? You know, ones that actually draw tags and can read the draw odds?

So now the truth comes out that you're drawing "easy to draw units" that you could have drawn without the point system.

Laffin'...
 
jims,

You are absolutely spot on in saying the Wyoming non-resident preference point system works well for the average to good units. I am not sure why these guys keeping bangin on you because you speak the truth. I suppose they want to suppress anything positive about preference point systems, so they can achieve their agenda.

I think preference point systems in general work well for average to good units, but they are a disaster for the best units.

Excavator
 
excavator---You must be a selective reader in saying you don't know why we're "bangin" on him. He has been telling us in numerous posts about all the "great" tags he and his boy have been drawing in the 6 years of the PP system. When called out by myself that it would be impossible the way the system works, he has now admitted the facts and that is the tags were ordinary ones you can draw with 2 or 3 PPs just like I stated! His chances would probably have been as good or actually better in a straight up random draw every year on those types of tags.
 
Topgun, is it possible that some units that take less than max pts to draw have a few bucks and bulls that are just as big as the best units in Wyo?

Like I've been saying all along I don't apply for the toughest units in the state (which are only a handful). I apply for decent draw odd units and research, scout, and hunt extremely hard! The turnover of antelope tags is so high that yes I do hunt some of the best antelope units in Wyo about every year or 2! I am guaranteed these tags currently every few years with pref pts. Without pref pts I can guarantee I would not draw these same tags as often!

You may ask how can I draw more tags with pref pts vs a pure random draw? The fact is that those that draw tags with a pref/bonus pt system have their pts return to 0 after they draw. The turnover of Wyo antelope applicants is so quick that the system works fantastic. Once I draw a tag my pts return to 0 and I am guaranteed a 2nd tag in a year or 2 in the units I currently apply. It will likely take more years to draw the same tag in a random draw because every hunter that draws a tag doesn't step to the back of the line. Some hunters draw back to back tags with a random system while others it may take years to draw one tag. More applicants in the random draw have a chance each year so obviously draw odds are tougher. Obviously this system DOES NOT WORK for the toughest units in the state to draw where turnover of tags is almost non-existent!

I may not draw as many deer or elk tags as antelope but that can be expected. I still have drawn what I consider fantastic elk and deer tags (not the toughest draw tags in the state) since Wyo started pref pts for nonres.

I say they are fantastic and great units because I harvest some great bucks and bulls on just about every trip. They aren't the absolute best units in Wyo but they are units with fewer hunters and on average higher quality animals than the general units. Currently I am guaranteed to draw these tags in a few years with the nonres pref pt system...plus I've lucked out and drawn several in the random pool draw. I would not be guaranteed these tags with a random draw system and hardly drew any of these same tags when I was a Wyo resident in the random draw.

I spend a lot of time researching, scouting, and hunting to find the whopper critters I harvest in these units. I'm fortunate to live fairly close to Wyo so I can take several trips each year to do this. I have also hunted Wyo for many years and try to keep tabs on the quality of game in the "fantastic" areas I continue to draw and hunt...thanks to pref pts!

Buzz and his wife would draw more "fantastic" limited tags if there was some sort of pref pt system for Wyo residents!
 
Excavator: as for the PP system to be a disaster for the hard to draw units, statistically speaking, aren't they already a "disaster"? If you're on the "ground floor" of a new system, it's a better process than a random draw. Statistically, that can't be argued. Once you've drawn or if not in the system the 1st year, then obviously the odds of drawing go way up, even further. But if you're talking about a situation like that mentioned above where you only have a 1 in 100+ chance in a random draw & arguing to keep that process, it's not very convincing. (not saying you're arguing that). I do know what you're saying though.

Topgun: not sure how you'd have better odds every year in a random draw (for "easy-moderate" tags) since you're not competing against everyone (i.e., those that drew the year before that start over.) It would depend on which year in the process you're talking about, but I don't see how your statement wouldn't hold true every year.

I see good & bad in a PP system (for me) & yes, I'm quite familiar with how it all works. However, as stated by several guys above, for premium areas, a waiting system could help accomplish the same thing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-13 AT 12:38PM (MST)[p]>jims,
>
>You are absolutely spot on in
>saying the Wyoming non-resident preference
>point system works well for
>the average to good units.
>I am not sure why
>these guys keeping bangin on
>you because you speak the
>truth. I suppose they
>want to suppress anything positive
>about preference point systems, so
>they can achieve their agenda.
>
>
>I think preference point systems in
>general work well for average
>to good units, but they
>are a disaster for the
>best units.
>
>Excavator
>
>

Random Draw also works well for average units. What don''t you get about PP systems. They are a ponzi type of scheme, you get in and can't get out. They are systems that not matter how they are managed eventually they all get inflated and the system becomes filled with points.

ANSWER THIS: Why the hell would a resident want to give up a shot at the best units in the state when they can draw units (the ones Jims think are the greatest things since white bread) ever year?

Why the hell would they want to give up their chance to get the most desirable elk tag in the unit when they can still hunt OTC/general season? Why would you want to trade in a random system for a system that guarantees you will not draw a tag for years? I have not ever found a WY resident who couldn't hunt. Further more, the best bucks I have taken from WY were exactly like Jims claim. Great animals in general units where I hunted hard... Those same units had 70% draw odds prior to points. Now it has a 50/50 with 1 point. So I went from 70% every year to 50% every other year and guaranteed every 3rd...

Jims, where are all your awesome bulls? I would love to see your 350+ bulls and your 180+ inch bucks from these easy to draw units!!! Put up or shut up already!
 
jims,
OK I think you picked up on my sarcasm. Agreed that there are lots of great tags on general and low demand hunts, especially in WY. And I also think most agree that there is not much issue with a pp system for low demand hunts, everyone will get a tag every few years.

And, I think what were mostly arguing about is the high demand tags. If you don't get in on the ground floor of any sort of pp system, the chance of drawing is pitiful. Do Wyoming hunters want to do that to their kids and other future hunters? I think thats the real question.

In Oregon for our super high demand tags like sheep and goat we do not have a point system. ODFW recognizes that it just would not work.
 

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