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Would Residents Care about NR Point System?

B

BigMedicine

Guest
Would Idaho resident hunters care if the IDFG insituted a point system for non-residents? Right now in Wyoming they have a point system only for NR hunters, and it seems to work okay. That way nothing changes for ID residents, but it would give NR hunters more incentive to apply in ID and help make up the huge revenue shortfalls IDFG has had the last couple years. As an NR of Idaho if there was a point system I would buy a license and apply every year.

I know most ID residents don't want NR hunters around and I don't blame them. But, if they look at the big picture, wildlife management costs money, and if NR hunters aren't paying for it someones gonna have to pay. What do you guys think?

Big Medicine

Burn, Chain, 1080
 
I have found that some guys will say no way to a point system no matter what the set-up is. I agree with you and for years have been saying that we could get all the money needed from a non-resident point system to finally start managing our herds and cutting tags where they need to be cut.
 
>That would mean that NR would
>need guaranted tags, some on
>here may not like that!!!
>
That would only be fair
 
It sounds like a good idea. Moosey69 has it right, it would bring in tons of NR money, and in theory the F&G could stop selling tags that they don't need to be selling.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-12 AT 06:03AM (MST)[p]D350 has it right, in order to seperate the two you would have to have a guaranteed percentage of non-resident tags like every other state. Idaho residents will fight that because the 10% status quo other states have would take tags from them.

Also they will say its fine the way it is because everyone has the same chance, which isn't true because non-residents are capped at a maximum of 10% and pay a premium for a chance at up to ten percent!
 
leave it as is. non resident licence brings in $$$$$$ regardless of point systems. if they don't feel they are getting good bang for there buck go elsewhere. idaho native
 
Idaho Idiot! Go somewhere else?
I love these statements by some of
you guys! Alot of nonresidents
did go somewhere else last year!
How much money did your game and
fish department lose?

How many years can they go on,
and manage wildlife,
losing that much revenue?

Don't make stupid A$$ comments
until you use your "native" brain!
 
I need to agree with HNTBIGBULLS! After last years price jump on the Deer tags, Just to hunt otc Deer, you would need to fork out over $450, and not to many nr did! So it had to put strain on the G&F Revenues, and if they go to a point system for the nonresidents it would fix alot of problems they have now.
 
I thing F&G need to lower the price on their N.R. tags,and throw in a free Wolf tag to help their budget gap. As a resident i would totally back this proposal..
 
Mossey, Mossey, Mossey tat tat tat, you're going to get your tail shaved for mentioning NR and guarantee, management and cut in the same paragraph by the opportunists, be careful!!!!
 
The way it is now a lot of your high profile hunts are easier to draw as a nonresident than they are as a resident.
I would like to see a statewide draw for all tags nonresident and resident. That alone would get the revenue and quality headed in the right direction.
As it stands now there is a lot of OPPORTUNITY for a LOW quality hunt.
 
NO, we dont need a points system here for anyone.If you dont draw a controlled hunt you have the option to buy an otc tag. What other state can you do that in? Not many.We are very lucky to still be able to do that and I take advantage of it EVERY year,non-residents can also.If the price is too much dont come and hunt EVERY year. If there isnt enough or the quality of game you desire than dont come hunt here EVERY year.
I think if Idaho allowed more tags available to non-res. hunters in the controlled hunts it would bring in more non-res. hunters.Say 20-25% of the tags available but not guaranted.Do you guys think more non-res. hunters would more likely buy a license?
 
No points but longer waiting periods. 3 years. It will never happen because Id wants the $150 NR huniting license is often as they can.
 
im not opposed to the idea, but seems that last time the F&G brought this up, instituting a point system would cost a lot of money and they said that they would increase application fees as well to help cover that cost. there would have to be some good money in it for F&G to put up the $$ for a point system.

how much would NR's need to really spend the money? oregon only does 3% for antelope and 5% for deer and outfitter tags are in those percentages... is that too little. just asking?

i say do whatever helps get them some money so they start managing the herds instead of everything being managed due to the direct relation to their paychecks. im sick of that attitude.

This is off subject, but they should manage for the herds reguardless of if it brings in money or has a direct effect on F&G paychecks. Just my opinion.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
 
How wouldnt it create more revenue?

Most of us who hunt the western states apply for4-5 states and you can get yourself in a good rotation of drawing depending on what or where you are trying to hunt.

I would apply for the mule deer draw every year if there was a point system but I can only afford one hunt a year so on a year that I draw Nevada I already know I have my tag so I save close to $200 by not trying for Idaho

I get sick of hearing the addage that you can still come get a OTC tag. I have other places to be if I dont get the hunt I want I dont want to go to some second hand hunt. Yes some OTC hunts can be very very good but if you do not have or do not know an area or have the time to scope out a new one dont force feed me the OTC tag. If I strike out in the draws We go to Disneyland instead
 
One thing that most forget is that up to 10% of all limited entry tags can already go to non res hunters. it doesnt always happen but the idfg has that already written in the laws that way. I think keeping it so no more than 10% of limited entry tags (total per species and not per hunt) can go to NR and a non res point system will be fine, as long as that isnt the foot in the door for an overall point system for ID res as well.
 
nitis-

Maybe the wealthy apply in 4-5 states per year, but I think stating that "most" follow that practice is a gross overstatement. You also seem to think that a point system automatically creates big horns. I don't understand that mentality. Idaho is never going to be a B&C hotbed for elk, just no genetics. Our muley winter ranges are subdivisions or will be once the economy turns around. Don't think that because you spend money here gives you a right to an easy hunt for a nice animal. Most ID residents will admit that our herds are suffering, but we all enjoy hunting the "second-rate" units every year. Have fun at disney land...
 
we have a unit we know and like to hunt.

And how can you not afford to apply in 4-5 states unless you want to go to disneyland more than hunt

I apply in california nevada utah and Idaho if I have to thats four

California is a given no extra cost

Nevada my favorite place to hunt

Utah is inexpensive to apply forless than $50 a year

Idaho is my last resort when nothing hits or I am not inline to draw my California tag

I am also really only after Mule deer not an Elk hunter




Ok can someone tell me why a point system for non residents is a bad thing? The only complaint that you can seem to come up with is we non residents may take an extra tag or 2 away from residents by commiting to a %10 quota. But your non resident applications will increase signifigantly

Heck if Idaho really wanted to screw people like me they would make applications due 2 months sooner before we find out about other states!

I do not blame residents for keeping things they way they are I would ove it but you are not shelling out upwards of $200 to apply you guys already get a license regardless just like I do in my home sate
 
I am trying to help get you residents more money and guess what I am hindering my draw odds at teh same time so I kinda lose if you want to look at it that way
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-12 AT 08:37PM (MST)[p]Thats BS that Idaho doesn't have genetics to produce BC elk, in the 90s when they had a draw for archery, a spike hunt with no late bull hunts on our side of the state, in couple of yrs it was fabulous around here!! Of course it didn't take long with to many early hunts and far to many late hunts to totally ruin what was fantastic!!!! In most all cases Idaho is "over hunted" as far as quality is concerned!!!

Age of animals stands in the road of quality here!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-12 AT 08:37PM (MST)[p]Since IDFG raised prices a couple years ago they have left $4-$5 Million dollars on the table in unsold non-resident tags and licenses. Before the price increase all NR deer and elk tags were selling out every year. Not the case anymore. IDFG will have to make up the lost revenue somehow, either through resident price increases or cutting programs.

If ID gave NR hunters a straight 10% of tags and instituted a point system I predict they would regain much if not all of their lost revenue. If I knew I could come and hunt general season deer AND get a point towards drawing a controlled tag I would be more likely to shell out the $450 to hunt deer in ID. Even if I wasn't planning to come hunt it might be worth the $150+ to apply if I knew it was getting me closer to drawing the permit I wanted.

Resident hunters with the "keep your money and stay the hell out of my state" attitude will eventually suffer.

Just for example if you do the math on 100,000 deer tags sold with 90% going to residents and 10% going to non residents and calculate the money generated through the sale of a general adult hunting license and a deer tag the 90% of resident tags generates $2,925,000 Dollars and the 10% sold to NR hunters generates $4,565,000.


Big Medicine

Burn, Chain, 1080
 
BigMed-

I understand the lost revenue argument, and certainly IDFG is hurting for cash. As you stated, a point system would get people to buy into the system because they could then use the license they were required to purchase to come hunt OTC. The way things are right now I'm not sure we need anymore people hunting OTC. I understand how your example would pan out if our herds were doing well and pressure was not currently an issue, but that's not the case. About the only way I see a point system for NRs benefitting Idaho's herds would be to create a strict controlled hunt system for NRs, allowing them a chance at points but no OTC tags. Maybe that would work, I really don't know...but as I previously stated I would not be willing to guarantee NRs anymore than 5% of tags...
 
back country

do you really think that by awarding points to non residents that they are all of a sudden going to flock to the state and buy OTC tags... yeah right have you seen how many OTC tags have sold the last few years

you are only going to gain applicants who want the hard to draw hunts

your state may be over hunted but how over hunted would it be if it actually sold out of tags?
 
I dont mind that the non-res. hunters arent coming to hunt here. The otc units get pretty crowded sometimes depending on where you hunt. As a resident I would be willing to pay double for license, permits and tags to make up for the loss of non-res. hunters revenue. I like this idea better than a points system. The people who dont can go to other states every 5-10 years (depending on your points) and hunt there.
 
+1 hayzeus. i would even say triple the pricing. i get tired of non residents thinking they are the financial saviors of our game department. i would also like to see the bird watchers ect. pay their fair share as the fish and game also cares for the non-game species. i am not in favor of point systems in any shape or form , nor am i in favor of draw for everything units.i want to hunt every year thank you. i am an old idaho native been hunting for decades. get tired of " newbies " moving here and wanting to change everything to a system like the states they moved from that they loathed. if a person has the financial means to put in for multiple states every year and loses 150 $ big deal. be thankful you can. i buy a non resident deer tag nearly every year to hunt whitetails for 300 dollars, if i don't fill it i don't cry in my soup.
 
In 2011 I bought the $150.00 NR resident license and applied for a long shot deer and long shot elk unit. The time before that was 2004. Only time I pay Idaho is when I haven't drawn anything by their deadline. 6 years in a row I had other tag (s).

If they had a PP system for NRs, they would got the $900.00 from me that they missed out on those 6 years because I would have been building PPs. Multiply that by 10s of 1000s.

But you are absolutely right, we (NRs) think we're your savior. And we're not!!!!

We are in Colorado, Wyoming, Nevada. NRs pay a significant part of their game and fish budget every year. But not in Idaho.

In the meantime, I'll continue to apply every 5-10 years when I don't have other tag(s).

Nevada will continue to get my $300.00 every year. Wyoming will get my $225.00 every year. Colorado will continue to get my $25.00 every year. Utah will get $100.00+ every year. Those states receive that money every year without even issuing me a tag.

Actually, in my case triple that because I also apply for my wife and son.

I'm thinking that Idaho is saving me $600.00 every year by not having to buy 3 NR hunting licenses and deer and elk applications. THANK YOU IDAHO!!!!
 
I have a few questions for Beavis and Heyzeus.

1. Do you think hunting in ID is what it was 10 years ago?

2. What do you think it will be like in 10 more years?

3. Do you have kids?

4. Do you take your kids hunting?

5. What do you hope is left to them in the years to come,or do you care?

The last question assumes you have them.

I am NOT trying to call you out on your opinion or anything, just trying to see where such an opinion is coming from.

Please just answer the questions and don't remind AGAIN how little you care about me (or anyone else) and our hunting or opinion, I got it the first 10 times you posted your pizz on anyone but me posts.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
I'll have to agree there. I'd far rather have my many non-res friends and family help pay than give any enviro group any say money wise in this state!!!!!
 
10 years ago wolves hadn't taken the toll on Idaho's herds that they have since. Now we have a season and are doing well at harvesting our allotted quota. Let's see how managing wolves pans out for a few years before we start letting NRs "invest" in their share of Idaho wildlife.

I'm failing to see how more money equates to lots of big bucks and bulls. Is it because then IDFG could lower the amount of tags they give out?

So in essence, the NRs in this post are asking ID residents to give up hunting opportunities so that NRs can kill bigger animals????
 
Frankly why should us residents care if NR's have a BP system. If they can have up to 10% at any given point in time, I don't care if they get it guaranteed. I am confident that if there is some great draw where the NR's get some slight advantage % wise over residents, it won't last long. This way NR's will be in the same boat here as in every other western state and can stop complaining. The offset to them will be less opportunity as I would not allow the same free access to all other OTC hunts, and as competition heats up then they couldn't rely on a good hunt here every year like now. Yes I said a good hunt. For example, you would have to draw EVERY unit, like WYO so wether or not there were second chance units available every year would depend on demand, like WYO.
 
"Frankly why should us residents care if NR's have a BP system. If they can have up to 10% at any given point in time, I don't care if they get it guaranteed"

That will be a hard sell to residents who have applied for a hunt for 20+ years and have yet to draw.

The real problem is the decline in elk herds. Bring back the elk and the revenue will return.
 
What about the deer herds Pre?

There were close to 8000
non res tags left over last
year. 8000 x 462.50 =$3,700,000.00

Just non resident deer alone!
 
Amazes me when I read some responses.

I live on one of the best steelhead rivers in the country and I don't want NR fishermen here clogging my hole or fouling my line because they are too stupid to learn when to cast etc.. But just because I selfishly wish they didn't come here I am not naive or dare I say STUPID enough to say their money is of no benefit to the state, county and local people and even the fish.

Go ahead and be selfish and say you dont want NR hunters to come to your state and hunt because you want it for yourself or say you are residents and you will vote for and dictate your states tag allocation, but you look like a fool if you say the dollars will not be missed or needed to improve YOUR hunting.

And to the poster above who said give wolf management a chance to work.........

I think there is more to ID game management making a recovery than just MANAGING wolves, in fact you could ELIMINATE wolves and it would take more than a few years to bring herds back without doing other things.

Idaho is a great option for me and I will continue to hunt there in the future and I don't think I want a NR only or any point system for that matter. I really honestly want what's best for ID game and hunters both resi and NR. I don't know what the answer is but I do know what it's not and that is to tel over half of your game dept. revenue and NR hunters to fluck off.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 
The loss has been about 6-7 million (each year) A NR point system would not hurt the resident hunters a single bit but still they whine and complain. After all, those tags ARE allocated as NR tags right? They are not YOUR tags, they are OUR tags!

NR hunters stopped hunting Idaho in big numbers when both the economy and Idaho's big game ran out of gas at about the same time. Also, a bunch of those OTC deer tags stopped getting bought by resident hunters that tagged out early and wanted a to kill another buck, maybe more than a little greed there eh?

Any idea that increases revenue while maintaining harvest quotas at desireable levels deserves to be looked at. After another couple of years losses, residents will see a HUGE increase in their tag and license fees that they will blame on NR hunters for abandoning their state. They will forget the go to h**l attitudes they used here and other places.

Resident hunters in Idaho don't seem to take any Ownership in the management of wildlife in their state, anytime I have seen a resident hunter even suggest that maybe hunters should bear responsibility for some of the population decline and revenue problems in the state they get blasted from every direction.

Everyone than shares their story of the same patch of woods that they have hunted for the last 50 years and killed hundreds of booner bucks on as the reason that change is not needed and should not be allowed.

Whatever you are doing now is not working, stop being stubborn and at least consider your options, before you run out of them.
CB08
 
You know it is a very sad day when us hunters fight with each other over points systems or percentages! when all we really care about is real management of our Deer and Elk hurds, Points or no Points systems, as long as we dont let FSW get there greedy little hands on anymore tags and let it be managed be the states!
 
and you nonresidents wonder why we get tired of listening to your bull$hit....

"I get sick of hearing the addage that you can still come get a OTC tag. I have other places to be if I dont get the hunt I want I dont want to go to some second hand hunt. Yes some OTC hunts can be very very good but if you do not have or do not know an area or have the time to scope out a new one dont force feed me the OTC tag. If I strike out in the draws We go to Disneyland instead"
 
Never seen a more hard headed bunch than this

You can't tell me that the approximate 3.7 million in revenue that some one stated earlier that has been lost last year and the year before has not affected the department. Even if the real. Umber is half that if they have lost 1-2 million the last two years the department can't go on forever that way

Before long they will not be able to hire new or more biologist and wardens or they will not replace those that retire and that will affect how your herds are managed.

Like I and others have said before we are willing to give Idaho more money it seems rediculous some of the statements I am hearing here how residents will pay more and we don't need non res money Please don't the teach economics back there?
 
Don't you guys think if we do the Wyoming system and make all units, including the general one's like 32 and 39, draws for NR's that will make up for the guaranteed tag numbers. Sure I think many will go into the "leftover" category so many can draw a tag, but at least we can cap the NR presence, as well as limit them to single units.

I'm not looking to stick it to NR's in this process, but if you don't like what we have to offer because you have to buy a license with nothing to show for it now(there words not mine), then I think we should get some better managment tools out of it.

I think it is a good idea. One hitch in my mind is funding the set-up costs as I doubt this is free.
 
Someone PM me if Idaho ever goes to a Preference Point system, PLEASE!!!

If not, I'll apply in early June if I don't already have a tag in hand. (not likely)

THANKS
 
I guess my original question was answered. Idaho residents WOULD care about instituting a NR point system.

This would require a guaranteed 10% of tags going to NR hunters instead of "up to" 10% of tags going to NR hunters. Most hunts already give 10% or very close to 10% of tags to NR hunters, this would really be a very small number of additional permits given to NR hunters in any given unit.

I think ID has much to gain by instituting a point system and little to loose. However, I recognize that I have my biases as a NR that likes hunting ID.

Maybe sometime soon someone in the ID legislature or IDFG will tackle this issue in an attempt to solve IDFG funding problems? If not, I wonder what IDFG will do to make up lost revenue? Loosing those millions of dollars each year will take a heavy toll on the agency budget. I am sure there are ways they can tighten their belts, but it will cut into programs and personnel that provide value to sportsmen in the state. I really think what ID resident hunters would give up by giving 10% to NR hunters and instituting a point system is going to be much less than what they will eventually give up due to loss of revenue.

It is too bad ID residents are so resistant to the idea.

Big Medicine

Burn, Chain, 1080
 
Nice synopsis. A couple points. Its hard to gauge how receptive residents might be without some estimates of costs and benefits. Second, providing incentives to the NR hunters, while perhaps a good idea, does not tackle the problem of dwindling numbers of elk and deer. If the hunting quality returns, so will the revenue.
 
Pre64 is right. If quality returns, so will revenue. Our draw units dont account for all the hunting in Idaho. Alot of people dont even put in for draw hunts. Not having points for NR hunters isnt the problem for the lack of NR hunters not coming back to hunt.
 
As a non-resident I like the system the way it is. Overall the odds of drawing a special tag in Idaho is pretty good the way the system is run today. I think the change of adding points would put more non-residents in the pool competing with me for a tag.
 
Personally,I quit putting in for Idaho several years ago.They make you buy a nr hunting license,with no points in return.I put in for hard to draw units.I am not very lucky at drawing tags.OTC tag hunting for mulies is not that good for a nr who doesn't know much about the state.In my eyes,Idaho is not a good value.I know MANY people who feel the same way.Until Idaho F&G wakes up and makes their state more attractive to the nr,expect revenues to stay where they are now.JMO.
 
Im for it and live in Idaho, I also would not mind points for residents if they still had to choose between a once and lifetime tag and the deer/elk choice. That way if theres an animal you really want to hunt you will eventually get it
 
I ran some calculations on the 2011 buck deer draw. NR's make up about 10% of the LE applicants and draw about 8.3% of the tags now. The area they routinely draw less than their 10% maximum is on hunts with less than 20 tags and on hunts where they make up less than 10% of the applicants. I'm not sure it is justifiable to guaranty 10% of the tags in draws where they don't make at least that proportion of the pool. Therefore the impact to residents for allowing a 10% allotment on hunts where they make up at least that % of the applicants, would not make a large impact at all to residents.

This is clearly the biggest complaint I hear from NR's. BTW, look at every single state, including Colo, Wyo, Utah, Ariz, and NM, sites and you will see them all complaining vehemently about how the quality has deteriorated. Colo and Wyo especially have been nailed by winter kills the past few years.

If allowing a NR draw, leaving the resident draw the same, will make Idaho a good place to apply and not just be a last chance OTC option, then I think that is the best of all worlds for us residents. 1. We get improved revenue, which no matter how you slice it helps. 2. We don't have to pimp out our amazing OTC system and get the NR's as a last resort. 3. I would implement NR's system like Wyo, and limit "access" hunts to second draw opportunities, and I would put reasonable caps in units like 32, 39, and 73 so we can start to get some limit on the amount of people crawling in those woods every oct and give the herds a chance to start to build back up.

The NR's get their point, and at least the same or better draw opportunity as they have now. They provide better funding which would hopefully help with quality. They have just as much opportunity as most other western states if they don't get a LE draw and get "something" each year they don't draw.

PS the amount of lost revenue, per fish and game is about $6MM this last year based on 2008 peak NR tag/lic sales. I figured that if we just raised our resident deer/elk tag prices to the ave for the western states, even excluding Calif, we would make up that shortfall alone. So for any greedy residents that don't want to give up the few dozen LE tags, then we could just increase your fee. I would do this anyway as we are simply too cheap now, with only Washington less expensive and only by a few bucks.
 
BPK

Good calculated points

One thing to consider about why some units with low tag numbers have low applicants from non residents is you really only have a chance to draw your first choice.

The unit I try to apply for has an early and a late hunt obviously I would love to draw the late hunt but since there are only a maximum of 2 tags available for it I cant justify trying so I have to try for the early that has 50-60 tags available if the draw goes accordingly. This is why I like Nevada you can at least try to get the Dream hunts that only have a couple of tags and still draw a tag in another area with more available

And in the end no matter what happens if anything someone is going to be upset and I am going to get bashed
 
Nitis,

I hear the we love Nevada's system all the time. One question, can you hunt it every year? I didn't ask, if it is a possibility, I ask can you hunt there EVERY year.

When I looked at Nevada's system, it seemed like you got lot's of opportunities to draw, but few were decent opportunities compared to really any other state in the west.

What you get now in Idaho is Opportunity to hunt every year in otc units that have 25-30% success on bucks and 25-40% 4pt's, but you would rather have a point, so you have to give on the opportunity. The whole state of Nev only has 40% success and 42% 4pt, including their best units. Hell they only killed 6942 deer. So please do not try and sell me that you get the same opportunity to draw, you just get more ways to NOT draw.

You are asking for the opportunity to get some guaranty of future benefit in trade four you current application, so their has to be a price for that right. Every other state has a trade-off.

Since this is for NR's, I don't really care what system you get, as long as residents retain a fair amount of the opportunities.
 
I guess I need to clarify what I mean when referencing Nevada. It's how they do the draw is what I like. The fact you can try for those really hard to get tags and not jeopordise the chance to hunt me and m family have drawn on our fifth choic before including my brothers elk tag last year that was the only non res tag for that hunt.

You can implement this and leavthe general hunts alone all we are talking about is the draw tags. Again yes it is a good and special thing your OTC hunts but those draw hunts are special too
 
Basically the arguement is will residents allow a "guaranteed" 10% of the tags go to non-residents or just an "up to" 10%?

Years ago I applied for Deer Unit 40. 200 tags. 16 went to non-residents. If it was a guaranteed 10% it would have been 20 tags.

Residents need to decide if the added revenue is worth those 4 tags times every "primo" unit in the state.

Personally, this is a resident issue. Us non-residents can whine and b1tch all we want but the politicians, Fish and Game Department and residents should make up the rules. It's their state!!!!!!

And i can't speak for anyone else BUT if their was a NR Preference Point system, I would put my wife, son and myself in for a primo deer and elk tag every year. And hope that in 15 years we had each drawn one or the other. $600.00 a year times 15 years is $9,000.00, for 3 tags not including the tag fees.

And once or twice in that 15 years I'm sure we'd buy OTC elk tags too when the draws were unfriendly elsewhere.

Someone asked how the money helps F&G or the big game itself? It could be $$$ for law suits against the Federal Govt. on the wolf issue. More wardens in the field to stop poaching. Big game guzzlers in the southern (desert) part of the state. Sheep transplants. Lower resident tag costs. I don't really know what the money would be used for, I'm just guessing.

Once again, please PM me if Idaho goes to a NR Preference Point system.
 

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