Winter 22-23

O

Oneye

Active Member
Messages
464
Nice to see more moisture falling so far this winter. Will be interesting to see what it does to deer herds as we progress through winter. Have to hope for there not being a real hard cold snap. The snow has been wet, and has had rain on top of it across quite a bit of the state. That can become a deadly winter kill combo if we hit a hard freeze and that snow turns into concrete the deer and elk can’t dig through. So far this winter is shaping up to be pretty ideal. Hope the storms keep coming, regardless if we get some heavy winter kill it’s been too long since we’ve had a decent wet winter. And water is what’s most needed at the moment to rebound our lakes, rivers, and wildlife. Just hope we don’t hit that super February freeze that sometimes comes. Keep the storms coming though.
 
The Inner-bred Mule Deer Of Today Is Not a Tough Breed Like It Once Was!

Body Weights only 1/3 of what They Use To Be!

Average Age Lower Than it's ever Been!

Maybe The DWR Could Start A January Depredation Hunt Because Alot Of Them Are Probably Gonna Die!

And The Ones That Don't Die Due To Winter Conditions Are Gonna Get CWD & Die Later!

And The Few That Survive Have Gotta Try & Survive Several Months Of Hunting!
 
elkassassin said:
The Inner-bred Mule Deer Of Today Is Not a Tough Breed Like It Once Was!

Body Weights only 1/3 of what They Use To Be!

Average Age Lower Than it's ever Been!

Maybe The DWR Could Start A January Depredation Hunt Because Alot Of Them Are Probably Gonna Die!

And The Ones That Don't Die Due To Winter Conditions Are Gonna Get CWD & Die Later!

And The Few That Survive Have Gotta Try & Survive Several Months Of Hunting!
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Mmmmm, I’m gonna go with no on this one. Mule deer have never been the size of elk. Deep snow, rain, and harsh freezes are always a recipe to kill a lot of wildlife.
 
Fish used to be bigger too!
I have a story for you Elk, I was fishing on Strawberry many years ago, Trolling pop gear out from the old camp Strawberry and my rod doubled over like I’d never seen. I popped her into neutral, grabbed my pole and started working it real slow and gentle, as to not lose this lunker. It felt like I was dragging in a truck tire. Took about 10 minutes to work it up. I got it up to the boat and discovered I’d snagged an old lantern.
And you wanna know something? It was still lit!!
Now, if you’ll cut 150 pounds off your old deer, I’ll blow out my old lantern.
 
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LOL Shadow!

If You Were Old Enough!

You'd Remember The Fish Being Bigger As Well!

Shadow said:
Fish used to be bigger too!
I have a story for you Elk, I was fishing on Strawberry many years ago, Trolling pop gear out from the old camp Strawberry and my rod doubled over like I’d never seen. I popped her into neutral, grabbed my pole and started working it real slow and gentle, as to not lose this lunker. It felt like I was dragging in a truck tire. Took about 10 minutes to work it up. I got it up to the boat and discovered I’d snagged an old lantern.
And you wanna know something? It was still lit!!
Now, if you’ll cut 150 pounds off your old deer, I’ll blow out my old lantern.
Click to expand...
 
On Average!

These Modern Day PISSCUTTERS Are A F'N Joke When It Comes To Body Size!

And I Still Hear:

But I Needed The F'N Meat!

GEEZUS!
 
Oneye said:
Mmmmm, I’m gonna go with no on this one. Mule deer have never been the size of elk. Deep snow, rain, and harsh freezes are always a recipe to kill a lot of wildlife.
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I agree we need the moisture and rain below 6000 feet and snow above is the ideal recipe for beneficial moisture.
The good thing about February freeze they normally only last a few days and the next week it could be in the 50s.
 
Hi, just call me elk elkassassin that is.

Screenshot_20230101_154219_Google.jpg
 
200 lbs Ain't Bad!

But Not As Big As They Once Were Back in The Day!

How Many Bucks Harvested Today In DRATville Do You Think Will Break The 200 Mark?



Weiserbucks said:
killed a few bucks that were 200+ lbs. Tell us more about the one's that were three times as big in the past.
Click to expand...
 
Every Time I Hear Somebody Say:

I Shot A Big Bodied 2 Point!

Or!

I Shot a Big Bodied 3 Point!

I Think Back A Few Years Ago And I Watched A Guy Shoot a South Slope PISSCUTTER!

On The Way Down Off The Ridge,He'd Blazed A Trail on His Wheeler Right Up To The Buck!

He Hollers At Me wanting To Know If I Can Help Him Load The Buck?

I Walk Down There,Set My Rifle Down,Grabbed The Buck & Slammed It Up On His Wheeler & Asked Him:

Kinda Like That?

The F'N Buck Was So Big I'm Sure That One Guy Couldn't Load It!

Probably a 300 Pounder on IG!
 
elkassassin said:
So?

Now All Of You Will Claim They're Just As F'N Big As They Ever Were!

WRONG!
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Bobcat, I think you’re right about bucks not being as big as the use to be, but it’s more due to the age at harvest than genetics. It’s all of us settling for ”pisscutters”. I’ve weighed a lot of bucks over the last 60 years, and the main factor for a buck to have a chance to be big is age. Whether you’re talking horns or weight mature bucks will be bigger than young bucks. In many areas even mature bucks may never be over 200 lbs dressed weight, or over 160-170 B&C. My dad the youngest son of 13 children, and the family gathered for the “hunt”. From the West Desert on the Nevada border to your beloved Book Cliff’s and South Slope, the family killed a lot of bucks. We weighed a lot of the big ones, and a buck over 225 lbs was rare. That’s with head and hide on, and legs cut off at the knee joint. I don’t remember anyone killing a buck that weight 300 lbs. My personal biggest weighed 253 lbs It was a 5 year old 26 inch 3 point. I inherited my granddad’s scale, and like to weigh the deer we harvest. I’m not good for much else any more, and butcher most of th deer for the family harvest. We’re not the hunter you are but manage to kill some pretty good bucks most years.. Bucks over 225 are not common . I’ve got it from a good source that you killed a pretty good buck this year. How about telling us about it. Inquiring minds want to know. Prove SS wrong. BacDoc ?
 
elkassassin said:
Every Time I Hear Somebody Say:

I Shot A Big Bodied 2 Point!

Or!

I Shot a Big Bodied 3 Point!

I Think Back A Few Years Ago And I Watched A Guy Shoot a South Slope PISSCUTTER!

On The Way Down Off The Ridge,He'd Blazed A Trail on His Wheeler Right Up To The Buck!

He Hollers At Me wanting To Know If I Can Help Him Load The Buck?

I Walk Down There,Set My Rifle Down,Grabbed The Buck & Slammed It Up On His Wheeler & Asked Him:

Kinda Like That?

The F'N Buck Was So Big I'm Sure That One Guy Couldn't Load It!

Probably a 300 Pounder on IG!
Click to expand...

Check out this big bodied 3 point. I'm sure he's pushing 300 lbs live weight.
 
His ruttin neck makes him look a lot heavier than he really is..As far as snow we got over a foot of new stuff the last 2 days..
 
Winter and early spring moisture is the key for current year's browse species leader growth. Last year was one of the driest winters and springs in our area's critical winter range. There was extremely short leader growth production on key browse species such as mtn mahogany, antelope bitterbrush, sumac, and rabbitbrush in our area. We also found that native forb and sub-shrub growth that is critical for mule deer in the summer through winter months was also severely reduced.

Obviously with less browse available, mule deer have to exert more time and energy feeding. Generally the browse that is available is also less palatable with lower nutrition. Obviously if mule deer spend more time feeding they exert and burn more calories.

Mule deer have highly specialized digestive systems. Certain plant matter takes longer to digest. Some of you may not be aware, but mule deer can actually starve to death with full stomachs.

It's easy to see how severe drought conditions can lead to a decrease in forage quantity and quality available to mule deer. This in turn leads to poor mule deer body fat and weights that prepare them for upcoming extreme winter conditions. Also healthier does in the spring lead to larger and healthier fawns to make it through their first winter.

I'm actually delighted to see snow and moisture this winter in our area. I always keep my fingers crossed that we get decent fall, winter, and spring moisture but without extremely deep, crusty snow topped off by extremely frigid temperatures.

With that said, take a look at your critical winter range! What shape are the native shrubs and other browse species in? If the browse is hedged to the bone with few native browse forb species available there is a definite problem! If the mature mule deer in your area appear thin and fawns are dinky.....there may be a good reason!
 
ridgetops said:
I said pushing 300. There's no doubt in my mind that buck is somewhere be tween 250-300 live weight. How wide do you think it is?
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I would guess he’s around 250. No doubt a big bodied deer and beautiful 3 point but 300 pounds or close to it is the very top end of a wild mule deer, the rut definitely makes him look more bulky than he is. What state is this buck from? As for width, probably 27-28. He’s a very nice buck.
 
That buck is a toad for sure but, doesn’t look to have the body length to make it to 300. A mule deer needs lots of length to make it to that 300 mark. Not many have that?
 
Absurd amounts of snow, and water content. It’s definitely gonna take a tole on our deer herds this winter, to what extent we shall see, but we desperately needed this winter. Hopefully a year like this can put a bit more water in the GSL along with the efforts being made to get more water into it. Certainly looking to be a winter that impacts wildlife, especially our deer.
 
I hope it’s not too bad on deer up in northern utah and southern Idaho, 2015 and 2017 sure set them back
 
Cooper said:
I hope it’s not too bad on deer up in northern utah and southern Idaho, 2015 and 2017 sure set them back
Click to expand...
If the current trend continues, it certainly has potential to be. Double edged sword here.....we desperately need this. The landscapes, rivers, lakes, streams, and swamps need this....like there's marshes I've never seen close to drying up, completely dry up by the end of last fall, it was bad......but the snow, combined with the rain is going to take out a fair chunk I'd guess. We haven't hit a really hard freeze yet, so fingers crossed we can get through February without that happening. There's been so much rain on top of this snow, it'll be like concrete no wildlife can dig through, but there's another storm lined up in about 3 or 4 more days and it sounds like it's going to keep rolling in during the coming weeks. Fingers crossed they went into winter nice, fat, and healthy....does seem like there's a good chance deer take a pretty hard hit along the northern parts of the state.
 
elkassassin said:
I Suppose you'll All Tell Me What A Tough Animal They Still Are As Well!
Click to expand...
I'll agree with this one. I don't know why but deer seem to be the most vulnerable out of any of the animals for some reason during the winter.

But what will survive and I have no clue how is antelope. How these things do so good during the winters makes no sense to me. They have no fat, and their hair falls out if you look at it wrong.
 
Wyo_Roadhunter said:
I'll agree with this one. I don't know why but deer seem to be the most vulnerable out of any of the animals for some reason during the winter.

But what will survive and I have no clue how is antelope. How these things do so good during the winters makes no sense to me. They have no fat, and their hair falls out if you look at it wrong.
Click to expand...
It depends. Antelope take a fairly hard hit sometimes too, they have twins a lot more than mule deer do, so they bounce back more quickly.
 
elkassassin said:
Every Time I Hear Somebody Say:

I Shot A Big Bodied 2 Point!

Or!

I Shot a Big Bodied 3 Point!

I Think Back A Few Years Ago And I Watched A Guy Shoot a South Slope PISSCUTTER!

On The Way Down Off The Ridge,He'd Blazed A Trail on His Wheeler Right Up To The Buck!

He Hollers At Me wanting To Know If I Can Help Him Load The Buck?

I Walk Down There,Set My Rifle Down,Grabbed The Buck & Slammed It Up On His Wheeler & Asked Him:

Kinda Like That?

The F'N Buck Was So Big I'm Sure That One Guy Couldn't Load It!

Probably a 300 Pounder on IG!
Click to expand...


Why ARE YOU HUNTING DEER?

My GAWD.

Haven't you heard how chitty the deer herds in Utah are, and YET, you're hunting deer, with a freaking rifle.

Thank GAWD we listen to you about fewer tags, shutting it down, etc. What a fine example you set?

How could you be so selfish?
 
So, your saying that back in "the day", this buck of my boys would have been 540lbs?

Son of a biatch, now I get why you miss the imaginary days so badly
IMG_20221029_163932__01.jpg
 
Easy boys. We all use terms to make a point that aren’t 100% correct..

Here’s a common one…….”he’s an ass hole.”
 
Homer said:
well....I guess literally...that is impossible...too
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lol…… that’s the point, but the message gets transmitted and the understanding is accomplished. Deer aren’t as heavy as they used to been. Some are a lot smaller than some were. :)
 
2lumpy said:
lol…… that’s the point, but the message gets transmitted and the understanding is accomplished. Deer aren’t as heavy as they used to been. Some are a lot smaller than some were. :)
Click to expand...


But I am an azz hole??

I'd need to see some actual data on this.

That pic I posted, that buck had 1"+ fat covering his whole body. Pretty much ate alfalfa all summer and played up in the foothills. You weren't killing heavier 3 yr old deer back in the day.

The issue we have in all these discussions is guys have no historical view. The "golden age" came from a perfect storm of poisoning and railing.

It won't ever happen again, so crying about it is useless
 
I only compete with myself, always trying to get a bigger buck or bull by archery or rifle. For years that meant incremental differences among two, three, and small 4 point bucks until I finally got a truly mature buck in Nevada. I was shocked how big his body was. It was all I could do to get him in the bed of my truck, after about five or six failed attempts. I don’t think I could do it again, except that I make sure to keep some ratchet straps in my truck now. The owner of the local family owned meat shop, who does a lot of game, was shocked by the size and amount of fat on this buck. I’m not sure how a deer gets that big and fat in Nevada, but he was aged at 6.5 years after I submitted teeth to NDOW. So yeah, I think elkassassin raises sone good points. I am convinced that there are biological and other intrinsic values to having a more natural age cohort of bucks on the landscape, including big bucks in their prime. It is not enough to have 15 dinks per 100 does.
 
A healthy herd, by a common sense definition…… is a natural stratification of all age classes of male and female animals. Of course, in a natural healthy environment there will be a large population of both yearling male and females.

Slamdunk seems to believe the Deseret Land and Live Stock Company runs a pretty decent elk management operation and he claims that includes a 1-1 male to female ration. Why would they do that, unless they believed it’s not only generating a healthy elk herd but it’s also producing a successful business model.

It would seem logical that big game management strategies, on public lands, would focus their objectives to that end. However, I don’t know of a western State that uses that logic………. The truth is they use the opposite management strategy and claim they have to use it to keep a population healthy and maximize opportunity. Nothing could be further from the truth. Big game herds with distorted numbers of female vs male populations are not healthy and the declining populations are clearly the consequence of faulty big game management.
 
2lumpy said:
A healthy herd, by a common sense definition…… is a natural stratification of all age classes of male and female animals. Of course, in a natural healthy environment there will be a large population of both yearling male and females.

Slamdunk seems to believe the Deseret Land and Live Stock Company runs a pretty decent elk management operation and he claims that includes a 1-1 male to female ration. Why would they do that, unless they believed it’s not only generating a healthy elk herd but it’s also producing a successful business model.

It would seem logical that big game management strategies, on public lands, would focus their objectives to that end. However, I don’t know of a western State that uses that logic………. The truth is they use the opposite management strategy and claim they have to use it to keep a population healthy and maximize opportunity. Nothing could be further from the truth. Big game herds with distorted numbers of female vs male populations are not healthy and the declining populations are clearly the consequence of faulty big game management.
Click to expand...
If a state game agency tried to achieve a 1:1 buck/doe ratio every person involved would be run out of town by those who believe does should be off limits, one needn’t go far on this forum to find multiple posts about how killing does is the no 1 problem with mule deer herds today
 
andrew12gauge said:
If a state game agency tried to achieve a 1:1 buck/doe ratio every person involved would be run out of town by those who believe does should be off limits, one needn’t go far on this forum to find multiple posts about how killing does is the no 1 problem with mule deer herds today
Click to expand...
Obviously……. So what? Do you want healthy, productive big game herds to hunt or the mess we’re dealing with today.

Never mind, I know what they want…….

We can’t have nice things……..
 
Well, it appears the cold snap is here. Have seen several posts about bull elk actually in the cities along the Wasatch front. When big bulls are in SLC, there’s a lot of snow, and it’s gonna hit things pretty good I’d guess.
 
Easy Homer, we’re pushing through a tough drought up here n N Utah…animals can’t find food because of the deep drought.
 
Pretty nice bull there, Oneye. What we up to now, Four? Or is that the third one that was spotted but not relocated?
Seriously though, in the pictures, that bull looks to be in pretty poor condition but I don’t think it’s because of snow depth, given the SL valley foothills don’t have enough snow to even begin to phase the elk.
 
Shadow said:
Pretty nice bull there, Oneye. What we up to now, Four? Or is that the third one that was spotted but not relocated?
Seriously though, in the pictures, that bull looks to be in pretty poor condition but I don’t think it’s because of snow depth, given the SL valley foothills don’t have enough snow to even begin to phase the elk.
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I think 4 bull elk is more than we’ve had in SLC in a long while, so I’d say yes…between that and the DWR feeding deer for the first time in years…it is impacting wildlife. Also, I agree, that bull won’t be making it through winter. He doesn’t look good. Clearly this winter won’t be wiping herds out, but it is going to impact deer herds, especially in certain areas across the state, fairly significantly. Fawn survival in northern Utah will be quite low. Remains to be seen across the rest of the states. A couple more months before relief is in sight.
 
andrew12gauge said:
If a state game agency tried to achieve a 1:1 buck/doe ratio every person involved would be run out of town by those who believe does should be off limits, one needn’t go far on this forum to find multiple posts about how killing does is the no 1 problem with mule deer herds today
Click to expand...


When the state was home to 1.5 million deer or whatever number you believe, was the ratio 1:1? 2:1?

DLL is a great management idea. Fence off 40,000 acres, sell corporations tags.

You know who has an even better strategy? Rulon Jones. They kill 400" bulls on his place weekly. I submit logically, we should follow that model.??
 
hornkiller said:
I thought all the flat brims hunting the front are legit hunters? This many nice bulls slipping by there should be about 2k more stick flippers for next year!
lmmfao
Click to expand...

They were in their tree saddles at the cemetery. But bet your azz, as we speak, sand camo clothing systems are being frantically made for next year.

Imagine the elevation gain climbing out of a sand trap, EPIC??
 
It's going to be a tough winter for our herds, and we still have a couple of months to go. All of this precipitation is a double-edged sword.

Hopefully, sportsmen will use some common sense and give the animals some space. Are the shed hunters already "pounding the hills" and harassing the struggling herds?

Hawkeye
 
Common sense should prevail. But it won’t.
Glad to see old oneye keeping one eye on that same herd that’s been hanging around the freeway the past few weeks. Hopefully the warmer temps forecasted will melt the south slopes and lure this herd back up the hill.
 
Hawkeye said:
It's going to be a tough winter for our herds, and we still have a couple of months to go. All of this precipitation is a double-edged sword.

Hopefully, sportsmen will use some common sense and give the animals some space. Are the shed hunters already "pounding the hills" and harassing the struggling herds?

Hawkeye
Click to expand...
I really hope they instate an April 1 start date this winter statewide. It’s needed.
 
Looks like today some of these elk finally started getting hit. Is there any way they could like feed these elk for a few weeks above where they’re coming down until some of the snow subsides? Like it’s a dangerous and expensive situation at this point. And plenty more will bite the dust if they don’t stay off the highways. Seems like they could implement a feeding program for a few weeks to try and keep them above the highways, rather than having to herd them every day.
 
Yep the slaughter is starting we seen way over thirty dead deer,seven elk and four dead moose on our way in to slc this morning
 
Look at the bright side....all those illegal paint and body guys are reaping rewards....
 
LoL homer....you got that right... Seen three elk smacked at the same spot I imagine that caused a little damage
 
yoteduster said:
LoL homer....you got that right... Seen three elk smacked at the same spot I imagine that caused a little damage
Click to expand...
I put an elk up against the wind shield a number of years ago, preinflation days. $11,000.00 went directly to the local Paint & Body Shop.

My daughter in law shoved a bald eagle through her new SUV front end, only $4,900.00, and the eagle was still alive, running around in the burrow pit. F and G hauled it off to rehab, never saw the bill to fix the eagle.
 
Related to this, Doug Owens is running legislation requesting $20 million to mitigate wildlife/vehicle collisions in the state. The state has over a billion dollar surplus. Contact the committee members in this email and let them know you support the legislation and funding to help mitigate wildlife getting hit:
7346B751-BDF0-43B8-B124-074A194F0EC0.jpeg
 
Well, it appears this one’s going to be a whopper…..deer and turkeys are just going to take a huge hit at this point.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1628033081818103808

If you have $25 to buy a square and help feed deer, it’d probably really really help out. Or attend a local conservation banquet, this winter is undoubtedly going to take some recovery:

SFW.net

sfw.net sfw.net

There’s 2 more storms in the 10 day as well, just gonna be a rough winter die off for some wildlife. As some have pointed out, if you fish a lot should be an amazing year.
 
Last edited:
Oneye said:
Well, it appears this one’s going to be a whopper…..deer and turkeys are just going to take a huge hit at this point.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1628033081818103808

If you have $25 to buy a square and help feed deer, it’d probably really really help out. Or attend a local conservation banquet, this winter is undoubtedly going to take some recovery:

SFW.net

sfw.net sfw.net

There’s 2 more storms in the 10 day as well, just gonna be a rough winter die off for some wildlife. As some have pointed out, if you fish a lot should be an amazing year.
Click to expand...
Did they already use up the hunting expo money? That didn’t take long
 
I was trying to stay optimistic with regard to the effects of this winter on the deer herd. Unfortunately, at this point, I think we all know this winter is going to put a hurt on many of the deer herds in the rocky mountain west.
 
fullthrottle said:
I was trying to stay optimistic with regard to the effects of this winter on the deer herd. Unfortunately, at this point, I think we all know this winter is going to put a hurt on many of the deer herds in the rocky mountain west.
Click to expand...
Like, judging by photos, I haven’t seen a storm like this in a looooong time in the state up north, on top of already deep—long lived snow levels. A lot of places will probably have fawn survival in the 10-20% range. 3 more days of storms in the 10 day forecast for northern Utah as well here. Obviously Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, etc will take a very hard hit as well. This storm was what they said it was, it slammed a good portion of the state and idk. Needed water, but it’s getting to the extreme end of things here.
 

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