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Which one?

ELKOHOLIC

ELKOHOLIC

Very Active Member
Messages
1,375
If you had around $700 to spend on bino's would you get the Cabelas Euro's or the Vortex Razors? Or is there another in the range thats better?
 
I agree with Foreman, except I lean toward Leica's... Just personal peference. NJS
 
I agree with one exception, there have been some great deals on E-bay with brand new Leupold 10x42 gold ring for $550-$688. My buddy here at work just got them from SWFA in the complete B&C kit than normally runs $1400.

Took em out for a whirl last night, really not bad at all. They cost him $610, but since he used Pay pal, the Binocs and the Boone and Crockett kit was $560.

They ain't Swaro's or Leicas, but that is a steal for that price! I think they have some on there for $688, but if you use pay pal you get a $50 credit. Total of $638 including shipping aint bad. No B&C kit , but still worth the price I think.

***One item to note, these are not tripod adaptable unless you have a wrap around kit like is used with many Leica's. Still very good glass though.
 
I'd follow FrankD and SteveC's lead and get the Zen ED for half the price of the Razors.
 
Elkoholic,

I've used the vortex Razors for the past 2 years and love them. They have the Vortex HD System, Armor Tek, Waterproof, Fogproof, Argon Purged, Phase Corrected, Fully Multi-Coated, Multi-Position tapered eyecups, Rubber Armored, Tripod Adaptable, Tethered objective lens covers all on a sesame seed bun...

For $769.99 with a $100 manufacturers rebate ($669.99 after rebate)... you can't beat the 10X42 Razor binoculars. I used to have a pair of swarovski's SLCs and sold them 2 years ago and haven't missed them one bit.

CS

"Helping turn good tags, into great ones." - www.vipoptics.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-09 AT 10:28PM (MST)[p]>Swaros are great guys, but that's
>not what he asked.....

You sure?....

"Or is there another in the range thats better?"

I've seen numerous used Swaros and Leica's over the years for less than $700.00! Heck, Doug at Cameraland recently sold NIB 10x32 Leica Ultravid's for under $600.00 with the $350.00 rebate! If that ain't a no-brainer over Euro's or Vortex, I don't know what is, and I've owned them both (Euro's and Razors)!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-09
>AT 10:28?PM (MST)
>
>>Swaros are great guys, but that's
>>not what he asked.....
>
>You sure?....
>
>"Or is there another in the
>range thats better?"
>
>I've seen numerous used Swaros and
>Leica's over the years for
>less than $700.00! Heck, Doug
>at Cameraland recently sold NIB
>10x32 Leica Ultravid's for under
>$600.00 with the $350.00 rebate!
>If that ain't a no-brainer
>over Euro's or Vortex, I
>don't know what is, and
>I've owned them both (Euro's
>and Razors)!

Wow, that is a great deal.


-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
 
OK, So what is this Zen Ray Bino? I had never even heard of them. There seems to be high demand for them. How reliable are they? Warranty? I have a pair of Pentax 10x43 dcf sps. How do they compare?
 
With Swarovski's anniversary sale going on right now I would recommend the 8x30 SLC for $899-you wont regret it.

THe 8x30 is a very under appreciated bino but its really all you need if you also carry a spotter.

Light and compact, huge FOV and solid.
 
Well, I decided to buy a pair of the Zen ed 10x43's. Time will tell if it was a good decision. I spent a lot less than I was going to at first. I will try to give an udate once I have had a chance to use and compare them. It was hard to buy from a company that is kind of an unknown.
 
I don't understand why guys view the advice to get Swarovskis with such disdain-I know they are high but great optics are without a doubt one of the top one or two most important pieces of gear in hunting.There is a reason Swaros,Leicas, or Zeiss's are around almost every serious hunter's neck. I can understand if you just can't afford more than a couple hundred bucks, but if you can pay $700 to me it a no-brainer to move heaven and earth to scrape up the extra $$$ to get the SLC's...no offense intended JMHO.
 
Here's a quote of John Barsness on Optics talk regarding the Zen ED 8x43:

"After using a ZR ED 8x43 for a few days now I have to agree with Klamath. These are not just good binoculars for the money, they have optics that are right up there with the best. It's actually quite astonishing--and I say that because I own top-notch binoculars from the usual suspects (Leica, Swarovski, Zeiss) and some others that usually aren't listed in quite the same league but are also top-notch (Bushnell, Meopta, Nikon).

My only question now is how well the Zen Rays hold up under field use, but since my hunting season is underway and will be for the rest of the year that will be an easy discovery."

http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=14998&PN=1
 
Cbeard, I would like a pair of Swaro's. If I never get a pair I will also be fine with that too. I don't know what gets you in the serious hunter catagory, but I would like to think I am there. I paid a little over $300 for these. If it gets me a good quality set of Bino's whats wrong with that? There's a long ways between $300 and $1,500. Foreman, I don't think Swarovski is a secret any more. Everyone knows you have a pair.
 
Guys/Gals their is no denying the optical quality of the Japanise / Chinease manufactures has vastly improved... thank computers and cnc milling and grinding machines for that... The use of ED/HD/ glass is also a factor.

The question that only time and field use can answer is will they hold up under actual field use... As Red Rabbit posted, even optical guru John Barsness is asking the same question... What is the mechanical reliability of these units... Only time and actual field use will tell...

The "Alpha Glass" is expensive... and that hasn't changed over the years, just the amounts have gone up. Saying that, My Leica's have been my "eyes" for many hunts and even more adventures the last 20+ years and they have NEVER failed me... And they have never been to the repair shop. Although, if it became necessary, they could be serviced at the Leica service center in New Jersey. Leica and Zeiss have been in business over 100 years...

Will the $400 dollar "wonder glass" give the same service and with the importing company be in business and able to service then 5,10,15 years from now...or will parts be available? Who knows... My crystal ball isn't that clear... But I think I bet on the company with a 100+ year track record being around.

The last 20 years of service and viewing enjoyment are what I base my opinions on... Buy the very best optics you can afford... It's money well spent! NJS
 
Elkoholic again no offense and I have no doubt you are a serious hunter(probably moreso than me-I certainly ain't no Fred Bear).I'm not rich either. But my Swaro binos and spotting scope are without a doubt responsible for getting me more game than any other pieces of equipment I have.

On the two guided hunts I have been on both guides left their spotters in camp and shared mine, and they would have taken my binos if I had let them. And almost every hunting buddy I have has replaced their binos after looking through mine-and that doesn't even speak to the durability issue.I myself had cheapos,then Nikons,then Bushnell Elites before I broke down and purchased the Swaros in 2001. I'm just giving my opinion in hopes of saving others the same needless progression up the scale I went through.

Good hunting!

P.S. I'm sure Barsness is a great guy but, these days,I take almost all testimonials from hunting mag writers with a grain of salt for obvious reasons. There's a million of 'em every time a new product comes out and wants to break into the market.Remember,advertising pays their bills...
 
Congrats Elkoholic. You really got a high quality bino there. It's obvious some here have never looked through a pair of the Zen ED's.



"P.S. I'm sure Barsness is a great guy but, these days,I take almost all testimonials from hunting mag writers with a grain of salt for obvious reasons. There's a million of 'em every time a new product comes out and wants to break into the market.Remember,advertising pays their bills..."

cbeard...........some of your ignorance fell out. It's funny the nonsense people post on the internet.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-09 AT 06:41PM (MST)[p]LOL @ that last comment about Barsness. He's only one of the experts in the world in the area of hunting optics.

I have the zen ray EDs and I've compared them with my swarovski and leica binos. In all honesty, I think they are MORE clear. I have never heard of anyone who bought them regretting it. They are hands down, bar none, it's not even close, the best buy in optics today.

Vortex brought 97% quality to the mid level pricerange.

Zen Ray has brought 99% quality (or better) to the LOW level price range.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-09 AT 11:32PM (MST)[p]Foreman, I don't think
>Swarovski is a secret any
>more. Everyone knows you have
>a pair.

Really, everyone? That's kinda odd because I could've sworn those are Leica Geovids sitting in my safe. Also, I could really care less what you spend your hard earned money on. I was simply recommending Swarovski because they're known quality, I've seen some good deals lately (check the classifieds), and the fact their warranty coverage is second to none even on used goods.
 
I always read these posts and they all end up the same. I have one question though. Why does everyone always compare the newest, cheapest, greatest binoculars to Leica and Swaro's. It's because they are the best, hands down. It is a lifetime purchase and you get what you pay for.

Rich
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-09 AT 12:46PM (MST)[p]Saw this cool looking Remington 710 at the local gunshop last week. It's a bolt action with a synthetic stock, the trigger works, plus it already has a Bushnell, BSA or Simmons scope on it.

Got me to thinking real serious about selling a Kimber Montana or maybe a Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 and a couple Leupolds and banking the rest. The Remington 710 Bushnell/BSA/Simmons combo will do everything just the same as any other rifle won't it? Man, it sure looked good sitting there on the shelf.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-09 AT 12:15PM (MST)[p]>I have the zen ray EDs
>and I've compared them with
>my swarovski and leica binos.
> In all honesty, I
>think they are MORE clear.
> I have never heard
>of anyone who bought them
>regretting it.

Let me know when you get ready to sell your Leica and Swarovski's, I might be interested.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-09 AT 01:29PM (MST)[p]These threads are kick. The amount of disbelief and poor analogies get funny. If you will ever compare one of these binoculars to your whatever brand of alpha you like then maybe you will see the fallacy of some of the analogies used.

The point is that the optics industry is changing pretty quickly. Look what Leupold did for $100 with the Yosemite. The $200 roof glass has skyrocketed in quality lately. Just get your hands on a new Vortex Diamondback if you need verification of that. Now, during the last year there are binoculars that give you change from four c-notes whose optics do compare to the alpha. That seems tough for a lot of people to believe, but it is what it is. That has to be seen to be believed, and too many people are going to hoot with derision at the thought.

Those who do look for themselves will be surprised by how good optically these are. There are four of them. The first was the Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED (you can get one from Doug at Cameraland). Then there was the Hawke Frontier ED, which is more widely available in Europe, but has a couple of well known US dealers. Then came the ZEN ED which has been posted about here. Now there is the brand new offering from Eagle Optics/Vortex/Sheltered Wings called the Atlas Optics Intrepid (sold through EO).

Now the guy with a limited budget can get a top grade glass for less than $400. If you want to continue to place your faith in the European Optics, fine. They are superb instruments.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-09 AT 01:43PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-09 AT 01:36?PM (MST)

>I always read these posts and
>they all end up the
>same. I have one
>question though. Why does
>everyone always compare the newest,
>cheapest, greatest binoculars to Leica
>and Swaro's. It's because
>they are the best, hands
>down. It is a
>lifetime purchase and you get
>what you pay for.
>
>Rich

I have to agree with you here Rich. Zeiswaroleic are the best and I have seen many times over the past twenty years where Vortex owners and some others have have talked about how good they are compared to the Alpha binos. I've alway pretty much just said BS under my breath and chalked it up to inexperience after looking through most of these over the years.

This time with the Zen ED.....one of their first offerings.... we have not your typical owners but those with some real optics experience "saying" but really not trying to say...... Uh you better take a look at these Zen ED's. They are something special. I've probably been one of the most vocal. I'm not trying to brag but I do have some unique experience in the optics field. I have worked a US Navy Opticalman, an optician, an optical instrument tech, and a laser optics tech over a span of about 20 years. I collimated and serviced thousand of pairs of binos.

I knew after the first couple of days using the Zen ED that they were exceptional, but I was still a little hesitant to say so until I hade really had the chance to compare them in the field with some of the alphas. After doing those comparisons....its now no secret. They preform at least as good in many areas and outperform them in some. The resolution, field of view, and edge to edge sharpness are the areas I personally see where they outperform the alphas. So let me make sure you hear me straight. THEY OUTPERFORM THEM in those areas. No they are not as good in those areas they are better.

And as you can see from SteveC's post above Zen Ray is not the only one. I personally have not evaluated the other three SteveC mentioned but after seeing some reviews from some others I trust in such matters I doubt he is wrong about the other three.

It is a tough thing.
 
I'm sorry I did forget this is the Vortex cheerleader/rep/ghost marketing site.Seems every other thread is about them. Funny how I am a voraciuos reader and frequently visit many hunting websites and hardly hear squat about Vortex. But on here guys say they're the best thing to come along since Galileo's time....
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-09 AT 03:24PM (MST)[p]>I'm sorry I did forget this
>is the Vortex cheerleader/rep/ghost marketing
>site.Seems every other thread is
>about them. Funny how I
>am a voraciuos reader and
>frequently visit many hunting websites
>and hardly hear squat about
>Vortex. But on here guys
>say they're the best thing
>to come along since Galileo's
>time....

cbeard

I would take note of who makes those claims about Vortex. It's certainly not me, SteveC, FrankD, John Barsness or redrabbit.
 
I know-y'all are the Zen Ray guys. Vortex is a different bunch.

(And I'm just the ignorant Swarovski fan.)

;-)
 
To reply to the comments above, I never said the Zen's were better than swaro/zeiss/leica. I said in my opinion they are more clear. Would I give up my Leicas and Swaros? No, they will stay with me. Better solid feel, better durability (probably), better eye relief and less critical eye positioning. But the differences are miniscule. Heck if I can find much wrong with the Zens. Believe me, I've tried. I'm sure the same goes for the Hawke/Promaster/etc.

If I were to start all over again with the optics thing, and I needed one pair of "go to" binos, I wouldn't hesitate to get the zens. You're giving up very little, if anything. Do you get a little extra peace of mind with the extra $1000 you spend? Probably. But you won't see any more animals, I can guarantee that.
 
cbeard

Yeah, I have ZEN ED (and a Promaster too) and I have a couple of Vortex binoculars too. I also have a Leupold Switch Power, have reviews out for the Steiner Peregrine and Peregrine XP. I also have a Swift Eaglet that is a damned good binocular too. I don't work for any of them. I paid the same price everybody else would have to for all of the binoculars I own.

I have thought about posting a Switch Power review and the Peregrine reviews here too, but I think that might be a waste of time. But since I got the review Steiner's from Doug at Cameraland, I might get accused of working for him too.
 
Dang SteveC you sure own alot of binoculars(8 pairs by my count) for someone so cost conscious yet unconnected with the industry.

I find as a hunter I can carry only one at a time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-09 AT 09:15PM (MST)[p]> Do you get a
>little extra peace of mind
>with the extra $1000 you
>spend? Probably.

That's pretty much my whole point right there. The other thing is, it's the same two or three guys who spout all over the internet that the Zen-Ray/Promaster/Hawkes are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I think most guys here and elsewhere are pretty good at reading sign, but anyone who thinks they're getting Leica, Zeiss, or Swarovski quality glass for $400.00 is dreaming. I'm also smart enough to realize not everyone needs that quality of glass, but lets be realistic in the comparisons.

Here's a review of the Zen Ray's posted earlier today on another forum:

"I recently took my Zen Ray EDs to Africa for 2 weeks. They got dropped and wet as well as full of dust. My PH checked them out and felt they were brighter than his Leica Geovid. I used his and mine and couldn't tell a nickel's worth of difference.
The color values are very good too. Maybe failing a little in the green and blue discrimination. In any case they give very good low light performance. We used them a lot at dusk and twilight.
They are so far a very satisfactory binocular. There is no way a $400 bino is equivalent to a $2500 bino but for the difference you can buy several pair when the cheapies break."

That last sentence, particularly the last four words, pretty much sums it up.
 
cbeard

So do you only own one rifle?. I used to have a bunch, but I use three mainly these days. I have sort of replaced my rifle collection over the years with binoculars. I use my eyes much more than my gun. I also posted about these from the standpoint that there are a lot of cost conscious buyers. I never have said I could not afford an alpha glass. I really like the Steiner Peregrine XP for one. What I have said is that the difference in the alpha binocular is not worth it to me, not that I couldn't afford one. There have been times in the past when I would have liked one but could not afford it. So I know what it feels like when somebody wants to get a good glass for not a pile of money. I have never maintained that somebody else is bound to accept my opinion. I have never said that the alpha binoculars are not superb instruments.

Your approval is not necessarily something I seek either. I spend my money as I see fit. I expect you do the same.
 
Boy Steve it looks like we've really got the alpha users panties all twisted up in their crack. Funny thing is they haven't even looked through them yet or held them in their hands to see just what kind of quality they are.

I did notice something thats even been mentioned in this thread. Suddenly all of the big three and alot of the mid-priced companies have started offering substantial DISCOUNTS. They all KNOW what the twisted panties gang is afraid to admit. Their product is losing value. There are now several companies making products as good as or so close to as good as that it makes no difference.

And you can see that the twisted panties gang cranked it up a notch when Elkoholic layed his money down on the Zen ED. And that was before we even chimed in.

I've always been impressed with european optics but I'll also admit my own bias. I'm no fan of most of europe these days and I'm glad I have some other options other than enriching a bunch of snobs. Especially Zeiss.
 
>Still wondering when Frank is coming
>to the party?

Doesn't it just piss you off that you coulda got those Geovids for alot less with all those discounts Leica is offering?
 
Foreman, You said it was a no brainer to buy the Leica 10x32's over the bino's I previously mentioned? How's do they work in low light conditions? Would you use them for your every day bino? Never used 10x32's, but it just seems to me there is a reason why most use use 10x40's to 10x50's. I have read enough of your post over the years to know you will have an answer so I am patiently waiting.:)
 
One thing about this thread, it has at least made things interesting in the optics section. Thanks guys I've learned alot, when people disagree is when the best information comes out.
 
I'd take a 32mm Leica over the Euro's or anything Vortex has to offer and wouldn't be sacrificing a thing other than weight. In fact, if Leica offered a 32mm Geovid, that's what I'd own for my "everyday" binocular.

I really wasn't trying to start a pissing contest. My original post in this thread was simply an attempt to help you avoid spending more money down the road trying to upgrade similar to what your doing now with the Pentax DCF SP's. I've seen it over and over again where guys try to get by with mid-grade glass, but they end up spending more in the long run doing exactly what you're doing. My point being, if you'd have taken the $800.00+ you've spent on the Pentax and the Zen-Ray's, you could've easily purchased glass that you're grandkids would use someday. Like I said before, it's your dime, spend it how you see fit.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-22-09 AT 02:13PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-22-09 AT 01:52?PM (MST)

Come on....... a 3.2 mm exit pupil on that 10x32 Ultravid???????

I've used those before and the slightest movement moves the exit pupil. Talk about eye strain. And the resolution sucks. Personally I'm no fan of 10X binos but if I was going that route I would at least get the the 10x42 with a 4.2 mm exit pupil. What most don't understand is that the larger the exit pupil is, the easier it is to handhold centered over your pupils. Most everyone understands it makes the image brighter in low light conditions. It also improves the resolution no matter what the light conditions are.

I think I see the problem here Foreman4x4......you no longer have a captive audience.
 
Just wondering when you were going to pipe in with Larry and Moe about how wonderful the Zen-Ray's are, that's all.
 
With all the solid choices available he goes for the Zen Rays. Guess that is why Baskin Robins makes 31 flavors.

Just on account of the warranty and customer service, I would have suggested the Vortex.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-22-09
>AT 02:13?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-22-09
>AT 01:52?PM (MST)
>
>Come on....... a 3.2 mm exit
>pupil on that 10x32 Ultravid???????
>
>
> I've used those before and
>the slightest movement moves the
>exit pupil. Talk about eye
>strain. And the resolution sucks.
>Personally I'm no fan of
>10X binos but if I
>was going that route I
>would at least get the
>the 10x42 with a 4.2
>mm exit pupil. What most
>don't understand is that the
>larger the exit pupil is,
>the easier it is to
>handhold centered over your pupils.
>Most everyone understands it makes
>the image brighter in low
>light conditions. It also improves
>the resolution no matter what
>the light conditions are.
>
>I think I see the problem
>here Foreman4x4......you no longer have
>a captive audience.


Yep, one would have to think twice about brand spanking new Leica 10x32 Ultravids for $565.00, because everyone knows the resolution sucks and they're difficult to look through TFF!
 
Hardcore, Foreman, have you guys tried the Zen Rays? I haven't either. If they are half as good as what I have heard I will be happy with them. I got a really good deal and paid $313.00. Not $700.00 or $1500.00. If I don't like them I can probably sell them for just as much as I paid for them. They are a new company just like Vortex was a couple of years. I am taking a small chance. Foreman, if you are knocking them soley on the price then you truley are an a$$. I can't figure out what else would bother you so bad.
 
Thats the problem everyone doesn't know that. Hopefully they'll hang around long enough to learn that just because it has a fancy name on it doesn't mean its the best choice. As a matter of fact its a damned poor choice especially for $565.

I see you didn't take the time to respond to any of the reasons why I mentioned that they were a poor choice. I guess the Leica name is all everybody needs to know??????
 
Hey, you are entitlled to spend your money where you want. I don't take issue with that at all but I am always surprised by the decisions that people make inspite of solid advice because they think that they can get a great deal.

I don't think that you can get a Cadillac for a Chevy price and I don't think that you will be able to get your money out of these if you have to sell them because nobody knows what they are.

I hope for your sake that I am wrong but I don't think that I am. For that money I would have gone with the Nikon Monarchs or something used.

Anyway, good luck with them.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
>Hardcore, Foreman, have you guys tried
>the Zen Rays? I haven't
>either. If they are half
>as good as what I
>have heard I will be
>happy with them. I got
>a really good deal and
>paid $313.00. Not $700.00 or
>$1500.00. If I don't like
>them I can probably sell
>them for just as much
>as I paid for them.
>They are a new company
>just like Vortex was a
>couple of years. I am
>taking a small chance. Foreman,
>if you are knocking them
>soley on the price then
>you truley are an a$$.
>I can't figure out what
>else would bother you so
>bad.


I've never knocked Zen-Ray for any reason, price or otherwise. All I've said is, don't get your hopes up that you're getting Leica, Zeiss or Swarovski quality. My guess is when you purchased the Pentax DCF SP's you bought into the same arguments from guys comparing them to high end binos. How'd that work out for ya?
 
Oh and my advice is NOT solid????

Oh and the hell you can't get a Cadillac for a Chevy price. Problem is things have changed in the optics industry and you and several others just haven't figured that out yet Wade. You really don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Elkoholic the Zenrays have a 30 no questions money back guarantee in addition to the lifetime warranty. If you don't think they are the best optics you've ever used send them back for a full refund.

It's funny the total nonsense people post on the internet.
 
Yes leave us not forget this thread started with a guy with $700 to spend looking for some advice.

I have yet to see anyone downgrade anyone else for what they can or cannot afford but I have seen a fair amount of hyperbole and name calling from the Zen Ray crowd trying desperately to convince those who are reading this that their quality is equal/almost equal to the big three(in fact that is the title of another thread). In fact they are downright rabid about it as anyone can see. HMMMMMM.....

But the man made his choice and I suppose that is that.

Peace.

P.S.Warranty and customer service doesn't mean a dang thing on top of a snowy mountain range 4 days into an 10 day backpack hunt.Just a little something to keep in mind...
 
>Just wondering when you were going
>to pipe in with Larry
>and Moe about how wonderful
>the Zen-Ray's are, that's all.
>


No need to.

One, enough other people have purchased them now that they can speak for themselves and...

Two, sometimes saying nothing says more than saying something.

;)
 
vichris

"Oh and my advice is NOT solid????
Oh and the hell you can't get a Cadillac for a Chevy price. Problem is things have changed in the optics industry and you and several others just haven't figured that out yet Wade. You really don't have a clue what you are talking about...It's funny the total nonsense people post on the internet."

OK, Mr. Garcia, speaking of total nonsense, where shall I start. I consider a solid product something that has been around long enough to prove itself and establish a reputation. Something that experienced, mature, objective people are willing to recommend based on use in the field. Whether I agree with them or not is irrelavant.

I have never heard of Zen Ray. I have never seen them at SHOT Show or Outdoor Retailer. I have never seen them advertised anywhere. Eagle Optics does not sell them. Cabelas does not sell them. Bass Pro does not sell them. Sportsmans Wharehouse does not sell them. Camera Land does not sell them. The Outdoorsmans does not sell them. REI does not sell them. bitdwatching.com does not list them on either of their recommended lists. I have never seen anyone using a pair.

Now, those things, either individually or together, do not disqualify them but the fact that the best optics guys I know, two guys that make a nice living selling binoculars and have probably forgotten more than most people will ever know about optics, have never heard of them does.

My point is, while the Zen Ray might be simply wonderful stuff, word has not gotten out past Battleground, Oregon to the rest of us troglodytes. While Seans Astronomy Shop no doubt is just absolutely killing it in Zen Ray sales, they are not exactly what I would call big in sport optics. Not really mainstream. Therefore, by my definition, they can not be a solid recommendation considering the alternatives.

Leica, Swaro, Zeiss, Minox, Vortex, Pentax, Nikon, Steiner, Bushnell, Kowa, Meopta, Leupold, Fujinon etc etc would all be considered solid suggestions because they have been around for a long time and people have experience with them. Zen Ray does not rate. At least not yet anyway.

Not saying that the Zen Rays are bad, I have not used them but I just don't have very high expectations for $300 glass. When you evaluate as much glass side by side as I do, you gain an appreciation for quality and quality costs more than 300 bucks.

Now, please, enlighten me, what has changed in the optics industry that I and several others don't know about?

cbeard
what does that mean? Of course they have to be good optically, easy to use and dependable but wouldn't you agree that warranty and customer service are an important part of choosing what to buy? It does to me. I know it certainly effects resale value.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-22-09 AT 09:37PM (MST)[p]Foreman, You are absolutely right. I bought into the Pentax by what everyone else was saying about them. Where you are mistaken is I don't remember anyone saying I was getting Swarovski when I bought them. Doug at Cameraland reccomended them and he gave me a good deal on them. Heres the kicker! I don't regret buying them and for the money I think I made a good purchase. The more you talk I am realizing its nothing more than a status symbol for you. I think these mid range binoculars are starting to make you squirm a little.

p.s..... my most accurate gun is a Savage;-)
 
Hey Wade-

To be very honest it means very little to me, as what are of paramount importance are optical quality and dependability. Sure,it is nice to know customer service/warranty is good but if you have to use them the product has already been at least somewhat of a disappointment...

When I need good optics I really need them,then and there,100% dependable,no excuses.I can't take a break to go the nearest Post Office or Cabela's.

And that doesn't just apply in the wilds of the Yukon or Alaska.It's just as true on the 2nd day of a 4 day New Mexico antelope hunt or the 1st day of a treestand whitetail hunt on my farm here in TX....
 
cbeard,

Well, I can't argue with that. My experience though is that the ones with the best quality/dependability also have the best customer service and warranty.

Vortex is a full rung below the best on the market but their warranty/service has impressed me. When I am looking at that price range and performance level that certainly influences my recommendations.

elkoholic

I would spend a little extra and go with the Pentax EDs instead of the SPs but they are an OK binocular. I have a set of 8x43 SPs that I use on the beach. I include them both with this group-Vortex Razor, Vortex Viper, Leupold Katmai, Nikon Monarch, Minox HG, Bushnell Elites (not the 2). Depending on my size, power, FOV and weight requirements I can pick a respectablle winner out of this bunch. All of them are nicer than the 7x50 Jasons I humped all over creation for my Dad when I was a kid and we killed a lot of game.

I have set my 10 year old up with the Nikon Monarch PC ATBs with the Outdoorsmans tripod mounts in 8x42 and 12x56 and like them very much. I use the 10x56s in the truck, Ranger and boat. They seem to be a nice package for the price.

This group is what I consider to be the base level binoculars for quality, performance, and price. Price seems to be the biggest issue with people looking at these. Everything else in this class is junk in my opinion and not worth the money.

I use a Vortex 6x32 Viper for a neck glass, Swaro EL 10x42s, Swaro SLCNew 15x56s and a Doubler myself.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
>Foreman, You are absolutely right. I
>bought into the Pentax by
>what everyone else was saying
>about them. Where you are
>mistaken is I don't remember
>anyone saying I was getting
>Swarovski when I bought them.
>Doug at Cameraland reccomended them
>and he gave me a
>good deal on them. Heres
>the kicker! I don't regret
>buying them and for the
>money I think I made
>a good purchase. The more
>you talk I am realizing
>its nothing more than a
>status symbol for you. I
>think these mid range binoculars
>are starting to make you
>squirm a little.
>
>p.s..... my nost accurate gun is
>a Savage;-)

Yawn.....
 
Hardcore, I also started with a pair of Jason's so the Pentax I have are an improvement. I'll leave it at that. Sounds like I'm in a different tax bracket that you anyway.:)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-22-09 AT 09:46PM (MST)[p]Wade & Clay,
Test them first hand by taking advantage of the 30 day return policy. Best to have first hand experience to form an rating/opinion rather than mere internut speculation, but you already know that.

Doug~RR
 
This last weekend, I put my Zen ED 8x43 on a tripod and a pair of Swaro EL 8.5x42 on an adjacent tripod and looked at a resolution chart. I gave the edge to the Swaro EL since I could resolve the next smaller block of 3 lines. Just one block better, not two. Another person agreed. A third person said he could tell no difference. When trying to look at new pine needle clusters on a ponderosa 100 yards away, no one noted an optical difference. Sharpness edge to edge appeared equal.

Well, there is the difference of $1399 vs $360. ;-)

In the African hunt referenced in a post above, the author did not note any damage or failure of the Zens...only speculation that they may fail.

Doug~RR
 
Not meaning to stir the pot at all but I just heard that Zen Ray put out a new press release.

http://www.zen-ray.com/press.shtml

Apparently they now have a dielectric prism coated version of the ED dubbed the ED II with quite a few user-sourced upgrades as well as a sweet spec'ed 7x36 open bridge design.
 
"But my Swaro binos and spotting scope are without a doubt responsible for getting me more game than any other pieces of equipment I have."


I am going to go ahead and say that your rifle,bow, or whatever you shot had a little more to do this it. But thats just me.


Just Living The Dream
 
Man, the ZRs even better? That's crazy. These new binos are going to cost really hurt the bottom line of the big three. Sure there will be those that still buy them (see above) but there isn't much reason to do so anymore.

I hunt with Leica Geovids. I own and use Swaro 15x binos. My ZR is just as clear and seems just as solid. I'm going to use them as my primary bino when I don't need an integrated rangefinder, like scouting trips, and leave the Leica at home. They are that good.
 
Not really.Don't get me wrong-a good rifle and bow are certainly necessary but for the most part the differences between high end rifles and bows and more economical ones is not that great. They will almost all group arrows/bullets plenty well enough to hunt with.

In my experience this is simply not true with optics. I spend MANY hours behind glass on my sheep,moose,elk, and antelope hunts. My Swaros allow me to evaluate game more precisely and at much longer distances than cheaper optics(I know this for a fact because in many cases my guides' optics simply couldn't get the job done and mine could). This saves miles of walking and tons of time,which is paramount on any hunt. You only need a rifle or bow for a minute to do one job. You need good optics during the entire hunt to do many jobs.

I can think of more than one occasion where I am almost certain I would not have taken a great animal without great optics.But on each of those occasions an out of the box rifle or less expensive bow would have killed him just as dead.

I think most if not all Western/Canadian/Alaskan hunters will agree...
 
>Not really.Don't get me wrong-a good
>rifle and bow are certainly
>necessary but for the most
>part the differences between high
>end rifles and bows and
>more economical ones is not
>that great. They will almost
>all group arrows/bullets plenty well
>enough to hunt with.
>
>In my experience this is simply
>not true with optics. I
>spend MANY hours behind glass
>on my sheep,moose,elk, and antelope
>hunts. My Swaros allow me
>to evaluate game more precisely
>and at much longer distances
>than cheaper optics(I know this
>for a fact because in
>many cases my guides' optics
>simply couldn't get the job
>done and mine could). This
>saves miles of walking and
>tons of time,which is paramount
>on any hunt. You only
>need a rifle or bow
>for a minute to do
>one job. You need good
>optics during the entire hunt
>to do many jobs.
>
>I can think of more than
>one occasion where I am
>almost certain I would not
>have taken a great animal
>without great optics.But on each
>of those occasions an out
>of the box rifle or
>less expensive bow would have
>killed him just as dead.
>
>
>I think most if not all
>Western/Canadian/Alaskan hunters will agree...

Good post, my thoughts exactly!
 
And while I'm at it let me add good optics allow you to stay behind the glass for those hours on end and help you FIND(not just evaluate) game in many cases. I guess it goes without saying if you don't see it you are not gonna kill it...

There is quite a stir on here right now about brands other than the "Big Three" and how they are as good/almost as good as them.

I simply ask a few questions:

Are they virtually foolproof/durable over years of hunting in all conditions?

Can you sit behind them for hours on end glassing every nook and shadow and not get headaches/eye strain?

Will they allow you to evaluate game 3 miles away well enough to decide if you need to cover that ground because that is the animal you want?

Can you get the definition and detail you need to find/evaluate an animal across a canyon at dusk/dawn?

You can answer "Yes" to all of those for the Big 3. You cannot for the other brands. And you certainly cannot for any of the "new kids on the block".They just haven't been around long enough. They may look OK or even great in the store but that doesn't mean squat. At this point it's all gum-flapping talk.

If 10 years from now those questions can be answered "Yes" for glass at 1/2 or less the price of the Big 3 I will buy them. Till then I'll stick with what I know works...but I have a feeling nothing will change.
 
cbeard

I agree on the durability to the extent that at this point it is an unknown. So as far as that goes, it is a guess.

But I can tell you that the answer to your other questions is yes. I have had the opportunity to sit for hours in the dark and gloom side by side with Swarovski and the Steiner Peregrine XP. The short answer is that if you couldn't see it with the ZEN neither could you see it with the Swaro or the Steiner. How many hours do you have with your alpha beside the ZEN?

Now I have no expectation you or a lot of the posters will beleive that. I do not really care either. For anybody who is at least willing to look, they are in for an experience. A lot of the posters here would waste their time by looking, so I won't suggest you do. You already "know" and any objectivity is not going to be there.

Nobody is suggesting the alpha owners abandon their optics. What was suggested that for a lot less money there is another option. That't it. So if you have other things for your money give the ZEN a look. If you don't like it fine. What I wonder about is the degree of virulence about something other than Swarovski.

The alpha glass has had an appeal for a long time and it is not likely to go away. Lighten up people!
 
I'm not virulent at all SteveC.I believe you will find my posts to be respectful and backed up by my own experience. And I am not rich and certainly understand that if a guy can't/doesn't want spend but $300.That's fine and none of my business.I'm talking to a guy like the original poster who is obviously willing to spend more.

It's the Zen Ray bunch who has been relentless in their stance that they have "Zeiswaroleic" quality.I'm just not willing to let all this virtual marketing I see on here be the only side of the story,that's all.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-09 AT 01:34PM (MST)[p]cbeard

Virulent, no you have not been, it has been the overall tone of the posts. Those of us who have posted about them have been demeaned to various degrees. In fact the "shoot the messenger" approach is a widely used tactic in human history. I find it interesting in that nobody who ever posts in opposition about these always has the same approach, the messenger is full of it, they are cheap Chinese Junk (I really can understand that line of opposition), or that since they are not coming from the holy grail of the big 3, they are therefore beneath contempt. That's it. No substantive discussion of design, construction etc. I'm not complaining at all. If I'm going to post something on an open forum, I am prepared to be called a flunky or one of the three stooges, or whatever else.

You have indeed emphasized your experience, which is fine. You simply hold your experience in higher regard than that of anybody else. A little self confidence is never a bad thing.

What you do not have and are quite unlikely to ever attain is some first hand experience of your own with one of these binoculars. That is pretty simple and is the crux of the matter. I have been behind Leica, Zeiss, Nikon, Swarovski, and Steiner binoculars beside both the Promaster and ZEN ED binoculars. I do not hold my personal experience to the high level to which you hold yours, but at least I have experience with both.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-09 AT 02:06PM (MST)[p]>I'm not virulent at all SteveC.I
>believe you will find my
>posts to be respectful and
>backed up by my own
>experience. And I am not
>rich and certainly understand that
>if a guy can't/doesn't want
>spend but $300.That's fine and
>none of my business.I'm talking
>to a guy like the
>original poster who is obviously
>willing to spend more.
>
>It's the Zen Ray bunch who
>has been relentless in their
>stance that they have "Zeiswaroleic"
>quality.I'm just not willing to
>let all this virtual marketing
>I see on here be
>the only side of the
>story,that's all.


I think there is an important differentiation to make here. I think that many of us have stated that the optical quality of the Zen EDs is at the level of the European Alpha binoculars. The same group of individuals have also stated that the build quality has not given any of us any problems up to this point (about 6 months now for me in particular). Beyond that I obviously cannot comment. Customer service, another important aspect of the equation, has also been stellar. So, I guess the comment many of us have is "so far so good". I, respectfully, cannot call that virtual marketing but rather just an honest testimonial.

I also feel the need to comment on something mentioned previously, the quality control/optical performance of this bin. It has been mentioned that glassing for long hours in search of game without a resulting headache is a good benchmark for quality. I would agree. I hunt but I also bird. In my opinion certain types of birding require just as demanding optical performance. For three or four months out of the year I spend at least one day a week up at the local hawkwatch. For those not familiar with it hawkwatching involves sitting in an elevated location glassing the blue/white and gray sky for hours on end in search of "specks" that turn out to be migrating raptors. I have yet to encounter any other optical activity that is more demanding of quality optics than that one application. Issues such as field curvature, chromatic aberration and most certainly collimation all become easily apparent in this type of activity.

I only received the Zen EDs in January and my typical hawkwatching endeavors don't start occuring until August of each year. I do spend some time in April though pursuing the spring migration. In this limited "test" the Zen EDs shined. No headaches and excellent overall performance. I can also say much of the same towards the Promaster Infinity Elite EDs, a near clone to the Zen ED, as I used them last fall for the local hawkwatch.

Of course I continue to evaluate every optic I own on a daily basis. Will the Zen EDs hold up to further scrutiny? I don't know but I will continue to report as time passes.

Also, for what it is worth, and for those that do not know me well on this forum I own a variety of binoculars. In my current selection I have the Meopta Meostars, Nikon SEs, Bushnell Legend Ultra HDs, Leupold Yosemites and Cascade Porros and the Bushnell Legend porros. Though none of these others are "alphas" in the strictest sense of the word, ie...Leica, Zeiss or Swarovski, I have owned those as well. My point with this is simply that my posts here have really only been about the Zens so far but if another bin that I have some familiarity comes up then I will most certainly attempt to contribute.
 
SteveC I'm about to shut up but I will say I don't base what I say just on my experience alone-the "Big 3" are all backed up by thousands of years of collective experience by hunters and others all over the globe. It is not by accident that they have such a large and loyal following. Probably the most telling point is this is true DESPITE the fact they cost thousands of $$$.

There are tons of guys like me who are not rich yet have sacrificed to have them. And,remember,all who bought them had the option of getting cheaper glass-no one twisted their arms.But no matter what the endeavor,people want quality, and they are willing to pay for it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-09 AT 03:03PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-09 AT 02:59?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-09 AT 02:52?PM (MST)

cbeard

I am not asking you to shut up. I do not want you to shut up. I do not expect you to shut up. You should not be forced to shut up. I hope I am clear about that. I do not disrespect you or the experience you have. I have no reason to suspect that either you or the experience you have gained are anything but honest. OK? Clear enough?

I don't even want you to look at a ZEN ED binocular. It would do no good at this point. You already "know". However, IF you were making your comments on a comparative note from actually having used one of the ZEN ED binoculars it would add to the depth of your experience and add to the relevancy of your posting.

Frankly, the only guys who have experience with both the alpha glass and the ZEN class binocular are the ones who are posting favorably about the ZEN.

The alpha loyalty is there, I both recognize and applaud it. But it is not "DESPITE" their cost, it is "BECAUSE" of it. Until Pentax figured out how to make a decent mid price phase corrected binocular not much more than ten years ago, the "ONLY" option for top end glass was the expensive alpha glass. It was expensive becaue it was hard to manufature the glass, and was technically demanding to grind it and to get the coatings right, and EXPENSIVE to put it together, That loyalty was earned and is not undeserved. I am NOT knocking that. Times and technology change.
 
SteveC I wasn't taking anything personal I just meant I have said about all I can say,that's all...

You are correct that I have no experience with the Zens but if they're as good as you guys say we'll all know about it as the years go by because a miracle product like that won't stay a secret. Then I'll sell my Swaros,buy some Zens and spend the difference towards a cool hunt somewhere. I'll gladly eat the crow on my plate if that turns out to be the case.

But,in the meantime I'm gonna let others do the experimenting while I use my Swaros.

:)
 
cbeard

Fair enough.

However I can see no potential crow to eat. New stuff comes along all the time and is almost never universally accepted. There will always be the niche for the alpha and always the niche for a less expensive alternative.

Other that a wish that people would see for themselves what the fuss is about before going into the mamma bear with cubs mode, I can really add nothing more.

May your next hunt be your best yet.
 
If anyone has an authoratative contact for Zen Ray please PM me with it. I don't care what it costs or who makes it, I am interested in best in class gear. Period. I would like to contact them to see what I might be missing. Just like everything else, if I like it, I will promote it. If I don't, I won't.

Thanks.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-09 AT 05:25PM (MST)[p]>If anyone has an authoratative contact
>for Zen Ray please PM
>me with it. I
>don't care what it costs
>or who makes it, I
>am interested in best in
>class gear. Period.
>I would like to contact
>them to see what I
>might be missing. Just
>like everything else, if I
>like it, I will promote
>it. If I don't,
>I won't.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Wade
>www.HardcoreOutdoor.com



PM Sent

Thats all any of us have asked for to begin with. Check them out. If we are wrong (we're not ;>) then let us and everyone else know......and send them back for a full refund. What do you have to lose?
 
>Says Zen Ray ED 8x43s
>
>So you are telling me that
>these are already obsolete?
>
>Wade
>www.HardcoreOutdoor.com

Yes..........but check them out and YOU be the judge of the quality of them. Like we said times and technology in the optics industry are changing fast.

I'm sure Charles @ Zen Ray will refund your money or let you upgrade to the ED II. Remember they have a 30 day money back gaurantee.

I have not seen the ED II yet but I think Steve C has and can fill you in on them.
 
Well, I am not finished evaulating them yet but they are not a joke and probably don't deserve the smart ass comments I made about them earlier. Although, in my own defense, those comments were aimed more at the hype then the product.

At this point, and again I am not finished reviewing them, they strike me as being in the same class as the Vortex Razor or Viper (not sure which one yet). I have used them quite a bit but not in the hour upon hour that comes with glassing for Coues Deer which is the real acid test and I want a couple of other people I trust to use them also.

One thing I would note is that I wish they would accomodate the Outdoorsmans bino adapter stud a little better. The stud screws into the quarter twenty OK but it is on the outside of the hinge and points out away from the user instead of in towards the user like the ELs which keeps the mass closer to the center of graviity on top of the tripod.

I will have more on these later but they are a legit product with good quality and competitive performance for the class. The impression I got from some of the messages in this thread and others was that these were best in class glass for significantly less than best in class prices. Price is not one of my considerations in making a recommendation but at this point-stress at this point-I don't think that the hype matches the performance.

If it sounds like I am parsing my words and qualifying my answer, it is because I am. I am not done yet.

Hope that helps somewhat.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
The thing is Wade, and I bet you see it yourself now, is that these are a pretty unique binocular. If those of us who posted about had not been somewhat insistent about what it really is, or hyped it if you insist, would you have even tried it at all?

What these are is a very good optical quality glass with an image that competes very well in many aspects with much more expensive glass. The new ED 2 versions should be an improvement.

I look forward to your further comments. BTW, I think Charles will probably swap you straight across for your ED 1 for an ED 2. When you get done with the ED 1, I would suggest you contact him.
 
Maybe hype is not the best word, zealous or enthusiatic patronage might be more accurate. And no, I probably would not have tried them, I didn't even know they existed but then again neither did several very knowledgable people I know that work in the business.

But here is my question. What is unique about them? I don't see or at least haven't seen yet anything in them that I don't see in competing models from Pentax, Nikon or Vortex.

If you asked me right now if they are on the same level optically as the Zeiss FL, Nikon EDG, Swaro, or Leica glass I would have to say no. If they were and at their current price they would indeed be unique.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Wade,

How's the build quality compared to Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski, and top end Nikons? Think they'll last a lifetime?
 
I mean the price to image quality ratio. Nothing unique about a good image per se, but it is unique to get what you do for less than $400. That is what I meant.
 
Build quality-I put Zeiss, Leica and Swaro at the top, excellent, with little or no difference between them. The Nikon EDG seems to be just off of that and I would call it very good. I would put the Vortex and Zen Ray EDs in the very good class.

I think they would last a good long time if they are taken care of.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 

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