What makes an average joe hunter????

elks96

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,851
LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-14 AT 08:02PM (MST)[p]So battling it out over the CO governors tag, I found myself up against the average Joe Hunter. Some how not wanting to see a season cut short threw me into a whole other class of hunter... Funny part is I am a high school teacher with 2 kids an upside down mortgage and my newest vehicle is over 20 years old...

So tell me what makes a person an average joe hunter? Where does the line get drawn? Does buying a guided hunt make you that other guy? I know for a fact I am probably as average as it gets.... He'll I have been saving for over a year to get a back pack....I might even be lower average joe...
 
Its one thing to "cut short" 3 days off a 7 day season on a unit specific hunt.

Its another thing to argue a "cut short" season on a statewide tag from 160 days to 120 days.

Dont you think?
 
In my opinion the "average Joe Hunter" is someone that takes the outdoors for granted. They don't want to go hunting; they just want to go killing. When they get a tag, they only take the time that is allotted to hunt to fill it. They don't do much scouting, if any at all. Some will hike around aimlessly hoping to fill their tag or try brushing to flush one out. I don't think they are willing to take the time to really get to know the animal and what it is really like. I know that other responsibilities can get in the way, but that has not stopped my desire to be always watching. Anything from a mouse to a moose, I always have a watchful eye. That is how I got my cougar on the side of the road on a nice early morning Sunday drive. She was just sunbathing. Road hunting for cougars, I am still in awe.

________________________________________
I'm not one for telling my grandson how big of turd I had to pinch off from having to eat so much meat. I want to give him the trophies that hang from my wall and tell him the unforgettable experience that came with each and every one.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-14 AT 09:26AM (MST)[p]"What makes an average joe hunter??"

IMO
The true average joe would be the majority, which are the guys who really only think about hunting for a couple weeks a year. They spend a couple days during application period thinking about it, then a couple days when they draw a tag, and then a few days on the hunt. The average joe doesn't really do much scouting, pre-season shooting, research of maps, tag numbers, draw odds, etc.

I would say that not many true average joe hunters post to these forums. They definitely read stuff from time to time and might hit the site a handful of times per year, but they just don't think "hunting" year round like the rest of us.

I wouldn't consider myself average joe amongst all hunters, but amongst our circle (the guys who think about it year round and take it fairly serious), I'd say I'm average. I might spend a little more time thinking about hunting than even a lot of the guys in our circle here, but only because it's my job and I have to every day.

The question is, if I someday decide to go on a guided bear hunt in Alaska, would I then no longer be apart of the average group? What if I upgrade my rifle to one that will shoot 600 yards accurately, or upgraded my bino's to a higher quality? Would that put me in a new category?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook! I need a friend....
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-14
>AT 09:26?AM (MST)
>
>"What makes an average joe hunter??"
>
>
>IMO
>The true average joe would be
>the majority, which are the
>guys who really only think
>about hunting for a couple
>weeks a year. They spend
>a couple days during application
>period thinking about it, then
>a couple days when they
>draw a tag, and then
>a few days on the
>hunt. The average joe doesn't
>really do much scouting, pre-season
>shooting, research of maps, tag
>numbers, draw odds, etc.
>
>I would say that not many
>true average joe hunters post
>to these forums. They definitely
>read stuff from time to
>time and might hit the
>site a handful of times
>per year, but they just
>don't think "hunting" year round
>like the rest of us.
>
>
>I wouldn't consider myself average joe
>amongst all hunters, but amongst
>our circle (the guys who
>think about it year round
>and take it fairly serious),
>I'd say I'm average. I
>might spend a little more
>time thinking about hunting than
>even a lot of the
>guys in our circle here,
>but only because it's my
>job and I have to
>every day.
>
>The question is, if I someday
>decide to go on a
>guided bear hunt in Alaska,
>would I then no longer
>be apart of the average
>group? What if I upgrade
>my rifle to one that
>will shoot 600 yards accurately,
>or upgraded my bino's to
>a higher quality? Would that
>put me in a new
>category?
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
>I need a friend....


What about all of your training? Nothing average about that.
 
Training???

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook! I need a friend....
 
Elks96,
"Average" (in this context) is so hard to define that it's not worth the time.

I agree with founder, there are damn few "average" hunters who grace the threads of MM. We eat, sleep, drink hunting all year long. We crave the outdoors. There's nothing average about that. It's a sickness for which I hope there's no cure!

I wish we (hunters) would stop being so divisive and much more inclusive.

The only way we'll stand is if we stand together.

Zeke
 
>Elks96,
>"Average" (in this context) is so
>hard to define that it's
>not worth the time.
>
>I agree with founder, there are
>damn few "average" hunters who
>grace the threads of MM.
>We eat, sleep, drink hunting
>all year long. We crave
>the outdoors. There's nothing average
>about that. It's a sickness
>for which I hope there's
>no cure!
>
>I wish we (hunters) would stop
>being so divisive and much
>more inclusive.
>
>The only way we'll stand is
>if we stand together.
>
>Zeke



I have been looking for a cure for awhile now; I have only found temporary distractions. I don't know if I could classify myself as a hunter because the only time I have a chance to harvest the animals that I have been watching all year long is when I have a tag in my pocket. Most of the year I feel more like an observer.


________________________________________
I'm not one for telling my grandson how big of turd I had to pinch off from having to eat so much meat. I want to give him the trophies that hang from my wall and tell him the unforgettable experience that came with each and every one.
 
I agree with Founder and MMO. The average guy doesn't spend hours figuring out draw odds, looking for honey holes via topo maps year round, hiking 5 miles into the wilderness in July looking for sign from last falls elk rut or the first topic out of your mouth when seeing your buddy is about hunting.

Friends, think I am nuts or off my rocker cause that is basically all I think about in my free time. Also, like MMO stated, the average hunter doesn't care "why" a deer is in a certain area he just wants to see one. When I see deer in an area or lack of deer, I evaluate the area as to why they are/aren't there. Then I put that knowledge to future situations and to help solve past situations. To be truly successful as a hunter year in year out, I feel you have to think as if you are the prey. I always pretend I am the deer, elk, moose and ask myself why would I want to eat, sleep, drink or travel here. What are the pro's/con's of this location...

Also, average guys don't practice shooting their rifle, bow or muzzle loader. A week or two before season they shoot a few rounds and call it good. They know where their bullet should hit at 100 yards but have no clue as to where at 200, 300 or even 50 yards. Some laugh at me for shooing my 300wsm with 165 grains for every game I hunt, from pronghorn all the way up to AK moose. My answer is that I "know" where my bullet hits out to 450 yards every time I shoot it.

Another topic is average guys let the weather affect their hunting times, guys like me use the current weather condition to their advantage.



Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
In the context of the pissing match you got yourself into, "average joe" meant the guy that cannot afford to buy a governors tag or landowner tag and then buy a hunter to go find an animal for him to shoot. The non-average joe was the guy that has the financial means to take advantage of a wildlife management system that markets high demand trophy opportunity to a select few under the guise of doing it for the greater good. You may not fall into this category but you are siding with those that do. If you do not consider yourself in that group then I wouldn't worry about it.
 
No worries, Zeke...THERE IS NO CURE!! I'm certain of it!

I get the feeling this post is going to turn into the money/no money argument.

Since I can't ever draw the elk tag I put in for every year, I have decided to try to buy a Wyoming commissioner's tag this year. I'm 62 and retired. Does this put me out of the " average joe hunter" category? If it's about money, I'm sure there are many who would put me out of the category.

I think about hunting every single day of my life. As soon as season ends, I'm planning next season's hunt...wait...I'm doing that DURING season. Average joe hunter? Hardly. But trust me on this...it has zero to do with wealth.
 
If your just a HS teacher then why do you care so much how long a gov tag holder can hunt?

How does the gov tag season ending early effect you in any way shape or form?
 
To me an average joe hunter is someone of average means and ability that just goes out and hunts either for fun, meat, trophy or to spend time with (or away from) family. Most hunts on public land.

Doing a guided hunt once in awhile doesn't make someone any less average joe. Saving up for a hunt or vacation doesn't make a guy Denny Austad IMO.

Being able to hunt as an average joe is part of what makes the USA the greatest country on Earth.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-14 AT 01:07PM (MST)[p]Average Joe, in my eyes, typically never travels more than 500 miles to reach a hunt and mostly only hunts the home state or maybe a neighboring state, too. Hunting is typically something they hope to do in between family and work obligations. If they can take off a full week for a hunt then that is a good season. Their gear is mostly a mish mash of servicable items. They may be able to go on a guided hunt some years but more likely only a couple of times in their life and often the trip is part of a bigger celebration with a parent or child such as retirement or graduation.

I have shared drinks over the decades with a broad spectrum of hunters. Some spend under $1000 a year all in hunting near where they live and others spend more in a year to hunt that many of us will make that year. Some use hunting as an excuse to get away from the spouse and drink for a weekend. Some were driven to put meat on the ground. Some were driven to put big horns or antlers on the wall.

I respect all hunters that hunt legally.

The hunters that I admire, though, are few and far between and this is driven by how they approach hunting. These are the men and women fanatical about fair chase and mostly hunt on public land in North America with tags they drew (or OTC) rather than bought in an auction or from a landowner. They understand the land, the animal, their gear and have sufficient skills to keep out of danger and be in a postition to take an ethical shot. Some of these hunters I admire are average Joes. Some are not.
 
All I can say, is a lot more "average joes" better start stepping up and doing more for wildlife, hunting, and the heritage of hunting.

Buying a tag once a year and calling it good, that isnt cutting it.

The "average joes" outnumber the guides/oufitteres/guided/gov. tag dudes, by about 99-1. Yet, they get steam-rolled at the Legislative level, Commission level, etc. by people that dont support their views. They get their a$$es handed to them on things like RFW programs, Gov. tags, Commissioners tags, transferable landowner tags, outfitter sponsored tags, wilderness guide laws,...and the sky is the gdamn limit from there. All of which, take opportunity away from "average joes".

Then, the "average joes" that outnumber these dbags...99-1, cry foul, whine, and complain, well after the water has passed under the bridge.

If the "average joes" want the heritage to continue, opportunities to continue, and the NAM to remain...they're going to have to fight for it.

There is a power struggle like never before regarding how Wildlife is going to be managed, who is going to profit from it,...and who is going to steer Management.

While people like Zeke (no offense), want all hunters to "stick together"...there is NO CHANCE I will ever support RFW, CWMU, transferable landowner tags, outfitter sponsored tags, or guide requirement to access the publics Wildlife resources. Those that support things of that sort, have NOTHING in common with my beliefs. They will not receive one fuggin' ounce of support from me, and they can forget "sticking together". They can "stick" something...thats for sure.

In short, if I wanted to live in place that supported the feudalistic management of wildlife...I'd move to Europe.

Not all people that hunt are our friends and many DO NOT have the average joe's best interest in mind, nor the best interest of Wildlife in mind.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-14 AT 05:04PM (MST)[p]
>
>While people like Zeke (no offense),
>want all hunters to "stick
>together"...there is NO CHANCE I
>will ever support RFW, CWMU,
>transferable landowner tags, outfitter sponsored
>tags, or guide requirement to
>access the publics Wildlife resources.
>Those that support things of
>that sort, have NOTHING in
>common with my beliefs.

None taken Buzz.

You voiced your opinion and I happen to agree with you. I guess I came into the discussion a little late and in this context my statement was a bit off-base.

I harbour no ill will toward a guy who works within the system but there are things within the system that should be changed or protected. THE "AVERAGE" GUY BETTER LEARN HOW TO GET THINGS DONE ALSO OR WE'LL LOSE IT ALL.

There are certainly time when we must disagree and let our voices be heard. We've all seen too many hunters sit on their hands and whine after the fact. Too bad.

Carry on,
Zeke
 
>All I can say, is a
>lot more "average joes" better
>start stepping up and doing
>more for wildlife, hunting, and
>the heritage of hunting.
>
>Buying a tag once a year
>and calling it good, that
>isnt cutting it.
>
>The "average joes" outnumber the guides/oufitteres/guided/gov.
>tag dudes, by about 99-1.
>Yet, they get steam-rolled at
>the Legislative level, Commission level,
>etc. by people that dont
>support their views. They get
>their a$$es handed to them
>on things like RFW programs,
>Gov. tags, Commissioners tags, transferable
>landowner tags, outfitter sponsored tags,
>wilderness guide laws,...and the sky
>is the gdamn limit from
>there. All of which, take
>opportunity away from "average joes".
>
>
>Then, the "average joes" that outnumber
>these dbags...99-1, cry foul, whine,
>and complain, well after the
>water has passed under the
>bridge.
>
>If the "average joes" want the
>heritage to continue, opportunities to
>continue, and the NAM to
>remain...they're going to have to
>fight for it.
>
>There is a power struggle like
>never before regarding how Wildlife
>is going to be managed,
>who is going to profit
>from it,...and who is going
>to steer Management.
>
>While people like Zeke (no offense),
>want all hunters to "stick
>together"...there is NO CHANCE I
>will ever support RFW, CWMU,
>transferable landowner tags, outfitter sponsored
>tags, or guide requirement to
>access the publics Wildlife resources.
>Those that support things of
>that sort, have NOTHING in
>common with my beliefs. They
>will not receive one fuggin'
>ounce of support from me,
>and they can forget "sticking
>together". They can "stick"
>something...thats for sure.
>
>In short, if I wanted to
>live in place that supported
>the feudalistic management of wildlife...I'd
>move to Europe.
>
>Not all people that hunt are
>our friends and many DO
>NOT have the average joe's
>best interest in mind, nor
>the best interest of Wildlife
>in mind.

AMEN BROTHER!
 
I don't believe there is an such thing as an average joe hunter. We each get to define the phrase, "as we see it".

From the wealthiest, the poorest, the busiest, the laziest, the healthiest or the least healthy of us we are unique and our circumstances are unique as well. If, in our own minds, we defining what a average joe hunter is, from there we can begin to argue that we represent the majority and therefore our opinions, ambitions and desires should be addressed over the minority or the "non-average joe hunter".

In the real world, those that work hardest, work the smartest and get lucky, get their way. If we want something different we are going to have to work harder, work smarter or get luckier. Otherwise you get to live with the consequence. A lot of us live with the products of others efforts.

DC
 
sound like buzzy is a jealous man. average is something i and many others don't strive to be. average in the context of life that is. there are those that are takers and those that are givers. it takes a mix of the two to make the world go round. there can't be one fish in the sea, or big game species in the rockies.... it takes a mix of individuals that creates an outcome which is greater as a whole than adding each individual unit. not everyone can be average... that is what obama wants and other socialistic tyrants. they want to bring down the top 1-49% to the level of the middle 50 and bring up the bottom 0-49% to 50% and make everyone 50%ers... this model doesn't work in life as an individual or as a hunter. the problem is you can't force average on anybody. it must be earned. forced success (ie. a gov handout) doesn't have a life expectancy. take away the gravy and there's no biscuit. if you give a leech blood he will thrive, take it away and it'll just shrivel up.

all hunters can't be the cookie cutter buzzy out there. there must be those that weekend warrior, those that got into it at 60yrs. of age, those that are born to kill, those that only go to have family camaraderie, those that don't care how much an animal scores, and those that thrive on killing big animals. it doesn't matter where you fall in this catagory. there can be a common goal with all hunters, and that is to preserve the hunting heritage as long as the dust is on the earth. preservation takes funding, yes funding from the top. you know, those that buy gov tags, landowner tags, hire a group of folks to kill big stuff, etc... preservation also takes "average joe's." in fact, it probably takes more average joes than the gov. tags guys are willing to admit. not everyone can be the general in this war going on against us, but the generals sure can't do a damn thing w/o his army of "average joes."

most this topic stems from this co gov tag date change. i look at it from a financial standpoint and how it impacts the preservation of what i care about most in life behind family and god, hunting. the bottom line is this, one deer can be worth 50+k or much less. might as well maximize our earning to give us the funding to combat the real enemy and that is those that seek to take away our hunting heritage from the top down.. ie. the gov. on down. at the end of the day it's a damn deer, elk, sheep, etc. doesn't matter if its fair or not (financially) . the states resource is out the same and that is one animal. the organizations that get money from these tags need this money to preserve our heritage. yes, they are the ones that get things done behind closed doors at the state and federal level. you might not agree with them, you might not hunt in an army like them, you might not kill as big as animals as them. it really doesn't matter. at the end of the day it's just a buck, bull, ram, etc. these tags should have only two missions, biological and financial. after that, it really doesn't matter. buzzy and others think their social take on matters is going to preserve our hunting heritage... it won't. good luck.
 
Well said Billy. Sometimes reality is the most bitter pill to swallow. Yet many times that pill is what keeps the body healthy!
 
Average Joe to me is someone that respects the quarry they hunt.
They are made up of all income levels from poor to rich.
They also have various levels of skill in the field and enjoy the experience outdoors as much or even more so than just the kill.
Average Joes are unselfish and think of future generations abililty to experience the outdoors and the hunt the way they have been able to.
The challenge of trying to outwit there quarry is paramount to the experience.

((Non))Average Joes- Think only of themselves.
They will do whatever it takes to get the animal at all costs.
The rack on the wall means bragging rights even if little effort was expended to obtain it.....Made up hunting stories are their forte and the lies they spew are defended vigorously.
They will say and do anything to get their way at the cost of other hunters opportunity and those of future generations means nothing to them.
They think nothing of blasting a muledeer on it's winter grounds knowing they could not have done it hunting the same seasons as everyone else. The animal they take in that time frame could have been a deer some 12 year old could have come across the next year in normal hunting seasons but they could give a crap about anyone but themselves.
They will profess conservation and helping other hunters by paying to cut ahead of the line just to satisfy a self image as a great hunter.
The levels of greed are endless and they seriously do not understand what real satisfaction is so they continue the cycle trying to fit in.
The kill to them means everything and the experience and skills needed to obtain a "trophy" the way Average Joes hunt means nothing.
Questionable and illegal methods are used without a second thought since they think they are above the law.
When there selfishness and lack of moral fiber are pointed out to them they spew jealousy as the reason....

On one hand I feel sorry for the "Non" Average Joes since they miss out on what it is all about.
On the other hand they think nothing of tearing apart our Heritage so I get involved and do all I can to stop the deterioration of our future generations ability to enjoy hunting as it was meant to be.
It is hunting-not farming or shopping.
Best,
Jerry
 
No need to feel sorry for us Jerry, we're not missing out on what we believe it's all about, from our station in life.

Billythekid pretty much covered the realities of the community of hunters. We don't have to agree with his view of the world but that doesn't make it any less valid. He's right, on most every point of the average joe hunter question, or so it seems from my view of the world.

Billy, thanks for taking the time you spent presenting your thoughtful remarks, very well done.

DC
 
No need to feel sorry for us Jerry, we're not missing out on what we believe it's all about, from our station in life.

Billythekid pretty much covered the realities of the community of hunters. We don't have to agree with his view of the world but that doesn't make it any less valid. He's right, on most every point of the average joe hunter question, or so it seems from my view of the world.

Billy, thanks for taking the time you spent presenting your thoughtful remarks, very well done.

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-14 AT 10:46AM (MST)[p]2lumpy- Would you happen to be related to the Christensen that recently was arrested for poaching? Just curious.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.
Reason I ask is this-http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID6/24623.html
 
You're not an average joe in any populated circle when you're getting some sort of super tag that is worth more than most people's yearly salary. That's for sure! Rob, I don't think the average MM'r understood why you were defending a tag that is mostly designated for not your average joe, and in most cases, not someone most hunters even admire.

If you're the lucky guy who wins a raffled tag, that's one thing, and I know that was the angle you were taking. But most guys are just looking at the paying tag holders who use thier money to get any advantage over the average joe they can get. So shortening the tag's season helps lower their "advantage."
 
I'll never understand how some people think on subjects like this. the guy who pays 200k for a sheep tag is doing the heavy lifting for they guy who wan't his resident deer tag for $5.

They hate the wealthy hunter for his success in life and the fact he can buy the tag or hire the outfitter . chances are the scum bag drives a better car and has a nicer house too . ironically most call themselves conservatives but their hatred for the successful is textbook Jesse Jackson.

Where I'm from the average Joe hunter puts more money into beer for the hunt than he does into the resource or tag. he drives around and pops a dink out the window and thinks he's Daniel Boone . he hates the NR hunter who spent $750 on points and 10 times as much for the tag because he's too dumb to know that's subsidizing his hunting. he hates the landowner seling hunts because he's too dumb to know that's the compensation the LO gets for allowing the game to ravage his fields and haysheds.

We owe most of our hunting today to TR , B&C and like minded hunters. there is a reason the B&C club wasn't and isn't a group of 100 average Joe's, they would have killed the last elk and had a BBQ while they drank beer.

Being average isn't a goal to aspire to, those who put out more effort and or more money are the reason we can all still have something to hunt.








Stay thirsty my friends
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-14 AT 11:32AM (MST)[p]Well, I live in Utah. I live 45 miles from Fayette, Utah. I hunt. Three of my grandparents were born in San Pete County. My last names is Christensen, so is his. Some body posted my genealogy back to the 1600s on Ancestry.com. Maybe you'd like to connect the dots yourself.

Besides, lets, just for giggles, say he was my first born son. What would that have to do with anything accept maybe an attempt to cast aspersions on me by family association. Or have I misjudged your publicly shared inquiry? If so, I apologize for my rhetorical response.

I'm reasonable sure your not related to James Holmes. What if I asked you if you hunted on a regular bases with Kirt Darner, because, after all, you are from Colorado, aren't you, so you could be and what might we believe about you if you are related to a mass murder or an accused poacher?

What, in my stated opinion regarding average joe hunters or any other points of view I've expressed on MM would provoke you to want to know if I'm related to Troy Christensen, or anyone else?

DC
 
Wow! I must be hunting in different areas than most of you guys. The Average Joe down here in AZ spends a lot of time just trying to draw a tag except for the OTC archery deer tag. I haven't seen an archer in the field that hasn't spent a lot of time learning to shoot his bow and takes the time to learn about his quarry because he knows he needs to get close and will be lucky if he releases 1 or 2 arrows all season. The rifle hunters I see in the field have spent a lot of time accumulating points to draw a tag, several years if not a decade or more. The guys I see in the field are equipped with some pretty nice optics and rifles and appear to know how to use them. I run into these guys sitting on the few high spots that make for good glassing and they are prepared to stay for hours or have been there for hours. They burn shoe leather instead of fuel driving the roads. Yes, I see some road hunters and some drinkers in camp, but in all the time I've spent in the field, I have never seen anyone drunk or even drinking while hunting. I've hunted in NM, CO, NV, AK and even CA and had much the same experience. Most of the guys are pretty serious about what they are doing having made a significant sacrifice in time, money, travel, equipment and being away from family and job. For one guy that might mean several hundred dollars and for another several thousand, but I consider these guys the Average Joe. Then again, I have never hunted a general unit in UT.

Do they spend time and money in an effort to preserve the sport? Some do, some don't, but whatever they spend, most would admit it isn't enough. That's why we get giant wilderness areas, camping restrictions and wolf re-introductions jammed down our throats by people from out of state with their own agenda.

As far as the big spenders are concerned, yes having their money go to wildlife management is nice, but the wildlife departments also know how their bread is buttered. There are a small group of hunters (relative to the total population of hunters) that have the money and inclination to buy the best tags and use the outfitters that get the best results. My experience with these types tells me most of them have the money to spend because they were savy enough to work hard and invest their financial resources where they can get the best results in business and they bring that same attitude to hunting. If they are going to spend big dollars, they expect big results. Therein lies the problem. Big money gets big attention from wildlife departments. Where would you focus your attention, on 4,000 customers that spend $60 with you or the 100 customers that spend $50,000 - $300,000? The natural tendency is to give the biggest revenue source what they want in your product and in this case it's bigger trophies for a smaller audience. I suspect most guys buying a governor tag would prefer they were they only hunter in the field and the Average Joe would be denied access to any game just so he would have the best chance at a trophy animal. I've never heard of a guy buying a governors tag just to give it to an Average Joe so he could have the experience of a lifetime. They are in it for their own gratification. And that is a slippery slope. We are lucky the wildlife departments are populated with people that believe the Average Joe still has a place in the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. I don't begrudge the big spender his tag or hunt. I am concerned however with what may result if wildlife departments place too much emphasis on catering to them.

There's my nickels worth. Flame away.
 
It depends on where you're looking for average Joe. if Joe can buy an over the counter or draw a tag every year in his back yard he 's not nearly as vested as the traveling hunter.

In my experience average Joe only hunts his home state and if he doesn't get a tag he goes fishing or golfing. nothing against average Joe but that's average Joe, and he makes up the bulk of hunters.

If you're talking serious hunter average Joe then that's a whole different breed of cat.















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Hey 2lumpy,

I just realized we may be distant cousins. ???

Laurs and Else are my great great grandparents

??
 
Good post sagebrush.
There are surveys that tell us who the average hunter is, I know I have read the ones from Wyoming, he isn't wealthy by the standard measurements, he is a middle aged male, he goes hunting to be in the outdoors and be close to nature, and share experiences with family and friends, he works for a living and takes some vacation along with weekends to hunt.
Its all on those hunter surveys most of us have filled out at one time or another.

There have always been wealthy hunters, Burt Klineburger, Elgin Gates, Roy Weatherby, to name a few from the past, those aren't average.

Its only been in the last few decades that wealthy hunters have really started specializing in western public land hunting for deer and elk, and with that came the specialized outfitters and guides, spotters and finders fees, and then we get the governors tags and the other wealth tags that supposedly are needed for funds.

20-30 years ago we didn't need them for funds, but it seems that things have changed over the years.

There is no doubt that the current money-trophy mentality has hurt the quality of hunting for the average Joe hunter, either in hunting opportunity or trophy opportunity, or both.
 
Average Joe's are guys who out of necessity find themselves with 'average' tags. They don't have the means or the time to elevate such circumstances....

Thus they feel slighted when others with such means have more opportunity and time to do what they want to, average joe hunters are jealous hunters....I know, i'm one of them...

https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters
 
Looks like we have lots of MM definitions of "average joes" when I'd wager none of the respondents is one. How many Average Joes hunt out of state more than once a decade? Look at the data and you can learn just how average or not you are when it comes to hunting.

There are 12-15 million hunters in the United States, yet only 10,000 non-residents applied for limited entry elk in Utah and 55,000 non-residents applied for deer in Colorado. That is a drop in the bucket. What, maybe 100,000 of guys are buying permits outside of State distribution? If we are generous 1 million hunters are hard core, which is less than 10%. The rest just want to hunt. They want to put in, draw and go hunt.

I'm not an average Joe, but most of my family is. They buy permits, pay taxes, and are no more or less important than me. Seems the average Joe's are low maintenance and the hard-core, ego trippers are the high-maintenance, squeaky wheels. Anyone who says "in my hunting career" is not an average Joe.
 
Not sure what makes someone average??? However.
Here is what I have gathered from all of these post as of late.
Go read MOST of the posts the last year.

-There is WAY TOO MUCH whining, complaining, and criticizing.

-There is something negative to be said about every photo.

-There is something negative to be said about every hunt style, hunt area, and hunt period.

-Hunters really seem to struggle with notion that:
Others Success does not hurt me.

-Most disappointing: I sometimes get caught up in it.

I could care less who is average, I could care less who makes how much, I am done getting caught up in the crap.

So, that is what I think about being average or not:)
 
I'm very certain we are, cuz. Small world I'd say. Wonder if my old buddy TheKnack has a DNA connection as well, back there somewhere, in a dark damp Bavarian cave. Now checking that out would prove entertaining, don't you think?

DC
 
So as we seek to discover the secret to life and immortality, by any chance where any these folks average joe hunters?

Theodore Roosevelt
George Bird Grinnell
William Tecumseh Sherman
Gifford Pinchot
Aldo Leopold

DC
 
?The mere fair-weather hunter, who trusts entirely to the exertion of others, and does more than ride or walk about under favorable circumstances, and shoot at what somebody else shows him, is a hunter in name only. Whoever would really deserve the title must be able at a pinch to shift for himself, to grapple with the difficulties and hardships of wilderness life unaided, and not only to hunt, but at times to travel for days, whether on foot or on horseback, alone.?

? Theodore Roosevelt, 1901

If the shoe fits...
 
That's a pretty insightful definition, from a really, really wealthy politician, that used his power, his influence, his collaborative skills, his leverage, provided by his inheritance, intelligence, ambition, his money and his power to accomplish a lot of really, really important objectives, that have preserved hunting all of us, both hunters and mere fair-weather hunters.

So, is the question then, who's a hunter and who's a fair-weather hunter? Rather than who are an average joe hunters?

And beyond that, is a fair-weather hunter a son of a b!tch, or just a "by choice" different kind of hunter. Because, we've demonstrated by our loyalty and dedication to the principles espoused by a gloriously rich, politically driven, manipulative, powerful lobbyist that those personnel characteristics do not preclude one from be classified, identified, blamed or branded a "hunter".

Was it Roosevelt's (and the others on the list) intelligence, wealth, inheritance, influence, attitude, commitment, foresight, hindsight, their cunning, collaboration, organizing, calculating, and negotiating skills that have serve our hunting community so well, for all these years?

Can a "mere fair weather hunter" with wealth, political influence, that is manipulative, with the right attitude, commitment, foresight, hindsight, is cunning, collaborative, organizing, calculating, and has well developed negotiating skills serve our hunting/conservation needs, or can only a "hunter" accomplish anything significant to protect and propagate our hunting lifestyle?

Or was it simply living the life of a "hunter", by Roosevelt" definition of a "hunter", that saved our valued lifestyles and the creatures that make it possible? Where none of Roosevelt's other assets, characteristics, and behaviors essential in accomplishing his mission?

DC
 
>?The mere fair-weather hunter, who trusts
>entirely to the exertion of
>others, and does more than
>ride or walk about under
>favorable circumstances, and shoot at
>what somebody else shows him,
>is a hunter in name
>only. Whoever would really deserve
>the title must be able
>at a pinch to shift
>for himself, to grapple with
>the difficulties and hardships of
>wilderness life unaided, and not
>only to hunt, but at
>times to travel for days,
>whether on foot or on
>horseback, alone.?
>
>? Theodore Roosevelt, 1901
>
>If the shoe fits...

you should wear it buzzy. really you should were that jealousy shoe and shout from a tower with a megaphone pronouncing you solutions to the masses. bring us all together. help us to combat this evil that so relentlessly strives to take us down one grass root at a time. i appreciate your efforts but despise your jealous bone that separates those not inline with you. to the end with sci, mdf, rmef, wsf, etc.... the nawm is all there is folks.. if you're lucky buzzy, obama will fund your efforts cus you aint gunna get much elsewhere.
 
Hey Lumpy,
I enjoyed your post number 42 on this topic. I love Rosevelt but certainly agree with your assessment. Thanks for the good writing and double thanks for standing up for your point of view. We should all do this and use facts leaving labeling or outright namecalling for those spouting attitudes instead of points of view.
John The Bastard
 
Me! IMO, I'm an Average Joe hunter!

I hunt when I can (or when I feel like it and can make time.....). I'm a bit obsessed with it, hence here I am at work posting on MM.com, BUT I also focus on lots of other things in life; career, my three teenaged kids, my elderly mom & dad, a little baseball, gourmet food, bike riding, traveling to cool places around the world, etc.....

I spend several weekends a year hunting with my kids/friends, and I usually try to plan one 'big' hunting/camping/fishing trip with some old highschool and/or college buddies each year. Sometimes I kill something, but usually I don't. Doesn't matter to me though, because I'm an Average Joe.

I just like to get out in the desert or mountains on occasion to remind me of what I love and remind me of what it felt like when my dad used to take me out in the sand-washes chasing quail as a kid...... Has nothing to do with 'putting the time in' for a trophy or drinking beer all day.

To me, I'm average AND I'm happy!

S.
 
>I'm very certain we are, cuz.
> Small world I'd say.
> Wonder if my old
>buddy TheKnack has a DNA
>connection as well, back there
>somewhere, in a dark damp
>Bavarian cave. Now checking
>that out would prove entertaining,
>don't you think?
>
>DC

Heck I take that as a compliment.
Would rather have the skills needed to survive and provide for myself rather than need a toilet paper carrier to wipe my arse for me.
Being pointed out as greedy,selfish and lazy brings those out that really are instantly. Works every time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-14 AT 09:04AM (MST)[p]Stanley- Thats great.
You have nothing you need to prove to anyone and your happy.
Nothing wrong with that at all and most should learn from your wisdom.
 
Post # 42 was weird, and of course Billythekids are always sing the same tune.

Teddy Roosevelt helped set up the North American wildlife model for all of us, all we have to do is keep it and protect it.
His quote about the definition of a hunter only reflects his ideals, and they are pretty cool in my opinion, he was a real man, if that offends the obese hunter who shot his paid for prescouted animal close to his motorized transport, so be it.

That was a different time in a different era lumpy, your rant has little to do with anything.
We don't need to create it,
we only need to protect out heritage.
 
2lumpy said,

"That's a pretty insightful definition, from a really, really wealthy politician, that used his power, his influence, his collaborative skills, his leverage, provided by his inheritance, intelligence, ambition, his money and his power to accomplish a lot of really, really important objectives, that have preserved hunting all of us, both hunters and mere fair-weather hunters.

Thats all true, but there is a couple things that you're leaving out.

Theres a distinct reason why TR had the success he did with passing some of the best conservation measures this country has seen...and likely ever will see.

Not only did he have all those things you mentioned, but he also had the respect of the people, and his peers, because of the life-style he led. He also tended to think of the "average joe" as much, or more than he did himself. Not traits that are found often in todays political, social, or hunting circles.

It would be fair to note, that in Roosevelts day, conservation, and preservation, were not looked upon in a positive light. Quite the opposite, it was manifest destiny to the fuggin' max, take with both hands and give nothing back.

TR was a rugged individual, who didnt need someone to saddle his horse for him, set up his rifle rest, or pamper him in any way. Thats what the people identified with, and why people supported his conservation efforts. Thats also the exact reason why todays "average joe" hunters have very little respect for, and can not identify with, those that are "hunters in name only".

There were many Presidents prior to, and after him, that would have never passed the measures he did. Its just a fact. They either lacked the know-how, the knowledge, or the support of their peers and the people to ever make it happen. TR had all the necessary traits and support to make a profound difference.

Sorry if I dont agree with you that TR's results were simply a function of his money.

To compare the big-money hunters of today with TR is a joke...all of them combined wouldnt make a proper pimple on TR's a$$ when it comes to conservation efforts.

Money doesnt make the man...
 
This will be my last reply for a while buss, we'll never agree on much, and I'm okay with that, I'm sure would you'd hardly give any common ground a second thought, so your beyond pleased with my temporary departure and any further interaction is pissing in the wind.

To put my point into a single statement, for those that believe that by the very fact that a man is wealthy, uses political power and influence, is smarter than some, is more ambitious, more cunning, an organizer for strength and influence, a master collaborator, a skilled manipulator and negotiator, is automatically harmful to our hunting and conservation lifestyle.

There's the statement.

Roosevelt was a rich, powerful, manipulator that saved the hunting/conservation lifestyle, today rich, powerful, manipulators still offer much need skills and resources to hunting/conservation, whether they are hunters or fair weather hunters.

For Godsake, let's not alienate and ostracize those that have the money and the skills to a do tremendous amount of good for the lifestyle. If they'd rejected Roosevelt because he was rich, where would we be today.

See you down the trail, or not.
DC
 
2lumpy,

I think people need to review the history of who did all the heavy lifting in regard to conservation and the wildlife resources we have today.

The big-money, commissioners, Governor tags guys are johnie-come-latelys.

I'm 45 years old, and when I started hunting, there was no such thing as a governors tag, commissioners tag, etc.

For nearly 100 years, prior to all the big-money bullchit, hunters, ALL HUNTERS, provided 100% of the effort, the money, and conservation for wildlife.

Once the hard work was done, along comes those that want to reap the rewards of those that did all the work.

I'm just wondering where all the big-money guys were before they could purchase a Governors tag???

Seems odd they'd only make a showing when theres something in it for them??? Their commitment to conservation seems to be tied directly to whats in it for them.

Strange too, that those that did all the heavy lifting, provided all the funding, etc., that absolutely deserve the rewards of their efforts, those guys never asked for, nor expected, preferential treatment. They didnt ask for anything extra for all they did for wildlife.

The amount of "good" being done by a handful of wealthy hunters in regard to wildlife, conservation, and management of same, is grossly over-stated.

In my home state of Wyoming, the purchaseres of Governors and Commissioners tags provide...get ready...NOT ONE CENT to help fund the WYGF Department. The NR license fees associated with Gov. and Comm. tags are paid for, via appropriation, from general fund money. In other words, the taxpayers are paying for the Gov. and Comm. tag fees.

Its also fair to note that all the Gov. tags combined in Wyoming...raise less than $500,000. Pretty sparten when compared to the $60,000,000 that average joes pay in license fees.

Again, I'm not sorry, that I beleive that the average joe hunter has the right to lay claim to ALL of the past efforts in conservation, funding ALL of the past Game and Fish Management, and takes all the credit for the wildlife resources we have today.

I'll also not appologize that the "average guys" still fund a vast, vast, vast, majority of all things related to wildlife and management of same.

Who funds what should be kept in the proper perspective...

When those paying the lions share (average gusy) want to quit allowing governors tags or imposing limits on governors tags...they've earned that right. Wildlife resources belong to the people, not just the wealthy.
 
440 2 pack, your really full of it, if you think bc has helped wildlife in the last 30 years. your drinking the wrong wine,,,,,
 
BuzzH - That may be the case in WY but not in AZ. Our auction tags raise a bunch of money, some tags go for as much as $300,000. 100% of the proceeds from the sale of the tags go to the Habitat Partnership Committee which funds all of the wildlife projects in the state where sportsman groups submit proposals that need funding. The sportsman groups usually provide the bulk of the materials and labor and G&F provides some funding, the supervision and assures the project is in line with management objectives. A couple million dollars a year goes a long way with that type of a program. That's how we ended up with over 1100 big game water catchments, hundreds of miles of barbed wire removed and hundreds of square miles of grassland recovered from P-J in our state. And I would bet that a lot of big money guys were spending on wildlife before the super tags were available.

I would agree we need to keep a sharp eye on it so super tags don't get out of control.
 
Well I would like to see them flatten all of the Rocky Mountains so it would be easier for Lumpy and myself to hunt deer, but it "ain't" going to happen. In Utah, I think the special interest groups have too big of a foot hold of our(their) hunting opportunities and at this point the only thing we can do is chime in thru writing letters or other means with hopes of status quo or a little give back to the "regular" hunters. I doubt very much if the regular Joe will have a listening ear unless you unify together and fight for Big Game Board member openings when they come up. That is what the large hunting organizations are doing. They might not admit it, but that is exactly what is happening. Wyoming your next!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-14 AT 10:45AM (MST)[p]cannonball,
If the Big organizations wheren't putting dollars on the ground on your beloved Pauns where would that unit be right now. Where did the dollars come from to add the water tanks, to clear the cedars out on the Buckskin? The amount of time you spend bouncing along those beautiful little single tracks in your razr makes you far from the average hunter. I'd bet a shiny nickel you'll be spending time down there again this year, tag or no tag. Just like me and I do look forward to comparing notes at the end of the season like we always do! Maybe I'll go for a ride with you and Lumpy this year instead of getting left home!
 
Muley, Sounds fun to me. Will say this. We will never go back to the old days and these groups have done some good, but at what cost. When my son drew out there two years ago, the guides services tried their best to ruin a good hunt. It wasn't their fault because they were FOLLOWING THE LAW, but they had the money, people, etc, in fact they were every where, like flies on a cow pie. That is -- everywhere the big buck were found and of coarse us. One guide came and sat right on top of us. He wanted us out of there and he let us know.

What am I getting at? Just this! There are so many special tags out there and most have hired a guide (which includes an army). And these hunting groups keep asking for more special permits. Where is it going to stop.

Next item: One un-named group puts their name on a projects that they put their little finger on and takes credit for all - pretty disgusting. When the money taken from these sportsmen groups, goes under the premise of helping wildlife, and it comes to a trickle and the main amount is used up from administration costs and salaries something is wrong. What is the best bang for your buck? Wyoming has the right idea and actually when you think about it, lets slow down Utah's growth. It is only going to get worse I guess!!
 
Cannonball,
Supply and demand! Public land hunting and you nailed it when you said there is more public than there use to be. Not so sure on WY. There is reason they lose population while states around them gain. Not to mention they have their own guide issues. Like huge sections of public land that me and you cannot hunt with out hiring a guide. Now knowing you I'm gonna say that wouldn't make old cannonball warm and fuzzy!
 
I would like to add to BuzzH's comments above about Wy commissioner and Governor's tags. While he speaks the truth about none of the money going back to WGF from these tags, the majority of them go to conservation organizations who put the revenue from these tags on the ground via projects that benefit fish and wildlife. So, Wy Comm and Gov tags are benefitting wildlife for the most part.

Some of these go to 4H or Boy's and Girl's Club's, etc, but most go to RMEF, MDF, TU, WWF, and other conservation orgs. Look it up. The info is on the G&F website.

I know this thread is dead, but I felt the need to throw that in.
 
Pretty simple to me. The Average Joe hunts within his own state, buying general season tags OTC, and drawing a GOOD tag whenever he wins the lottery.

If you can buy an out-of-state tag, you are already able to dedicate more money to hunting than the Average Joe Hunter. If you buy landowner/trespass/CWMU permits, you are dedicating more money than the Average Joe Hunter is able to. If you pay a guide you are dedicating more money to hunting than the Average Joe Hunter.

If I had an extra $5,000 this year, I would WANT to use it to buy a permit on some private land somewhere and hunt a trophy buck, but what I would NEED to do with it is pay down a credit card, a car, a house, or a student loan.

I know people who spend much more money on hunting than they can really afford, but because of the money they DO dedicate to hunting, they are not an Average Joe Hunter, though they may be an Average Joe everything else... This is probably a pretty large chunk of us here on this website I'd guess. :) :) :)

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-14 AT 09:32AM (MST)[p]Average: a level that is typical of a group, class, or series : a middle point between extremes

I look at "the average joe" hunter as some listed before me. A guy who hunts every year but it truly isn't a die hard, obsessive, hunting is all he thinks about guy. He hunts 5-10 days a year. Rarely scouts, owns average equipment, harvests an animal say every once in three years. But has other hobbies that trump hunting.

The way I look at it hunters can be broken into into several subparts: Die Hards, Wannabe's, Money bank trigger pullers, killers, and the "average joe"

Die harders are pretty self explanatory. They are what most of strive to be. These are the guys/gals that live, eat, sleep, breathe the sport. They put countless hours into scouting, researching, practicing, fine tuning equipment, applying in multiple states, (If they can afford it) etc.. They are the ones that typically are the ones whom harvest an animal, if not multiple animals each and every year.

Wannabe's are the guys who play the part of being die hard. But they are all hat no cows. They talk the talk but don't walk the walk. They own a fair amount of nice gear that they never really put through the paces. But at the end of the day they are not the ones out scouting all summer, shooting their bows multiple times a week, looking over topos/google earth, shed hunting in the spring. But they will be the first to tell you they know their sh&t. They just don't have the pictures or heads on their walls to prove it.

Money Bank Trigger Pullers; Another pretty self explanatory one here.. I think we can all name a few of these but Im going to use Dr. Chubby Strougker here as an example. Chubby has tons of money and tons of lavish activities on his plate; like taking his wife on lavish vacations to the Caribbean, Wine tasting in Italy, attending Barrett Jackson car shows and taking his kids and grand children on lavish ski trips to Aspen. But Chubby Strougker also gets great entertainment out killing the largest animals in the west money can buy so he can have them hang on his walls in all of his houses. He also enjoys getting to sit in the front row at all the big sporting expos and bid his heart away during the auctions and then hires mossycrack outfitters to guide him on all his expeditons. The only DIY Chubby knows is the DIY channel on his TIVO.

Killers: Well killers, well they kill stuff. They don't see the beauty in 'the hunt' or spending time in the outdoors. They don't care if its a bull, cow, buck, doe, boar, sow or whatever. They live by the "if its brown its down motto" A fair majority of us were guilty of this in our younger days.. I know i shot my fair share of tweety birds out of moms cherry tree with my red ryder back in the day ;)

This all just my personal opinion.. feel free to edit or critique my essay or add to it

Coloradoboy
 
The average Joe is the guy that -

spends $1,000 a year on cable tv.
Spends $1400 a year on beer.
spends $1200 a year on tobacco
Has a $600 car payment
$300 credit card payment
$800 child support because he cant keep his wang under control.
Eats out 6 times a week
$3,000 worth of ugly ass tatoos


and complains that hunting is a rich mans sport.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-14 AT 01:16PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-14 AT 01:08?PM (MST)

>The average Joe is the guy
>that -
>
>spends $1,000 a year on cable
>tv.
>Spends $1400 a year on beer.
>
>spends $1200 a year on tobacco
>
>Has a $600 car payment
>$300 credit card payment
>$800 child support because he cant
>keep his wang under control.
>
>Eats out 6 times a week
>
>$3,000 worth of ugly ass tatoos
>
>
>
>and complains that hunting is a
>rich mans sport.

Wow! I thought I was a pretty average joe hunter, but this description pushes me out of that category.

I don't have cable TV or satellite, just an antenna with a converter.

I don't drink alcohol.

I don't smoke (or snort or inject) anything.

I own 3 old used vehicles (An '03 mini-van I paid cash for, a '97 Ford truck and camper that my dad sold to me for $500 before he passed away and a '94 Rodeo 4-wheel drive hunting car that I also paid cash for. ALL of them in good shape because I take care of them).

My one and only credit card is limited to $5,000 and I have only 10 more $150 payments to pay it off if I choose to do so. (I gotta have it to apply for the licenses and tags, don't ya know!)

My 6 great kids from my one and only current wife of 47 years are all adults with kids of their own and none of them are having to pay child support, although one of them is receiving child support from an ex who does all of the above and below and more. (You forgot piercing, speeding tickets and live-in girl friends.)

We eat out 2 or 3 times a month if you count the grandkids' birthdays at McD's

A few ugly scars, but no tattoos.

Maybe you have me on the last one, though I don't see it quite there yet, just getting closer every year.

Since I now know I'm not an average joe hunter, nor a "hard-core" trophy hunter with only 5 "trophys" (2 P&Y animals (elk and pronghorn) and 3 150+ deer) in my 56 years of hunting, where do I fit?
 
>The average Joe is the guy
>that -
>
>spends $1,000 a year on cable
>tv.
>Spends $1400 a year on beer.
>
>spends $1200 a year on tobacco
>
>Has a $600 car payment
>$300 credit card payment
>$800 child support because he cant
>keep his wang under control.
>
>Eats out 6 times a week
>
>$3,000 worth of ugly ass tatoos
>
>
>
>and complains that hunting is a
>rich mans sport.

Haha i got a good laugh out of this.. I'll admit my yearly copenhagen bill would make me cringe if i ever sat down and added it up
 

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