What are you guys seeing for deer #'s where you hunted?

[hornsrus]

It was pretty disappointing on Monroe. Hunted 4 days and never saw a mature buck. Overall deer numbers were poor.

 

[elkassassin]

PISS POOR Deer Hunting/Deer Herd in NE Utah!

Haven't Seen A Buck over 3 Years Old!

Most Hunters That Mighta Held Out know How Bad it is & They Are Ground Pounding PISSCUTTERS if they Can Find One to Pound!

I Can't Wait To See what Next Year Looks like!

 

[bucks]

Me and the wife went for a drive last weekend went up current creek over and down co op creek back to highway 40,we counted 32, 2 point deer hanging in camps along the drive we never seen a deer larger than that! that had been harvested, so much for trophy hunting.There was a road block of 9 DWR trucks on top of current creek checking every vehicle that drove by glad to see the game wardens are out there .

 

[Horsecorn]

Pretty piss poor, went down willow creek and buck canyon. Seen maybe 75 deer 8 small bucks. Just a few years ago we would see at least 250 deer and a couple dozen bucks.

 

[legacy]

The area we hunt (Fillmore) seemed to be way down compared to years past. Maybe 25%-50% of what we typically would see. Did kill a buck though so I guess that's something.

 

[Uttaxi1]

I have to say I was impressed with the over number of deer. I haven't been out in several years and wasn't too excited to go. I seen over 100 deer per day the first four days and 60 bucks. I was in a different areas each of those days I quite counting after that. That being said out of the bucks there were 2 2.5 yr old and 4 mature bucks. We were able to harvest 2 of the mature bucks. The rest were spike and 2 points. The deer looked very healthy.

 

[hornsrus]

I have to say I was impressed with the over number of deer. I haven't been out in several years and wasn't too excited to go. I seen over 100 deer per day the first four days and 60 bucks. I was in a different areas each of those days I quite counting after that. That being said out of the bucks there were 2 2.5 yr old and 4 mature bucks. We were able to harvest 2 of the mature bucks. The rest were spike and 2 points. The deer looked very healthy.

Was this open public land? Off the beaten path? Northern, Central, or Southern, not to be too specific?

 

[Uttaxi1]

Definitely not off the beaten path. North Eastern. I saw all this from the utv. Been battling blood clots and my leg circulation is very poor and makes long hikes difficult at this time. I bet I only seen 100 people out and about. And only about 2 per day Tues -Thursday. I did even see some rut activity. Some bucks were flehming scent checking does.

 

[treedagain]

Where my grandsons hunted it was pretty good. More mature bucks than I have seen in awhile.

 

[Sparks Shooter]

I hunted the Wasatch East area and it was down a bit from years past in regards to mature bucks. The good news is that I did see quite a few immature bucks and lots of does and fawns so the future looks decent. In the area I was hunting, I heard very few shots and only saw a couple really young bucks taken. I did see quite a few elk, moose, and even a couple bears while I was hunting. I also saw some definite pre-rut activity with small bucks sparring and a few even lip-curling and sniffing the does. I took the most mature buck I saw in 4 days of hunting and he was probably a 3.5 year-old. Of course the herd is not what I would like and nowhere near carrying capacity but I am still so thankful for the opportunity to hunt and enjoy the awesome mountains!-----SS

 

[Oneye]

Numbers are down for sure. Lots of 1,2 year old bucks, not much beyond that. Which makes sense. The winter of 2018-19 was a really bad winter. Followed by 2 years of extreme drought and dry summers. This has been the first wet fall in a couple years. It was a perfect storm to torpedo the deer herds a bit and that age class. It’s not a surprise to me the mature age class isn’t there from the 3-4 year old range. Those fawn crops and age classes died.

 

[elkassassin]

This Is a Bad Question to Ask:

How Many of You Got a Glimpse of any Bucks You Figure Might be 6+ Years Old?

I Have Seen 0 This Year!

 

[Oneye]

This Is a Bad Question to Ask:

How Many of You Got a Glimpse of any Bucks You Figure Might be 6+ Years Old?

I Have Seen 0 This Year!

Well. The late season muzzy hunts are taking bucks that old off the top, and the 3-4 year old age group just isn’t really there due to weather over the past 3-4 years. It doesn’t surprise me. There are lots of 1-2 year old bucks currently. I would guess next fall people will have better odds at some medium 3-4 points than this go round. But yeah, the super mature age class isn’t there and likely won’t be with those late hunts.

 

[elkassassin]

The Utah Deer Herd is FUBARED:

F'D!

UP!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!

 

[Uttaxi1]

The one my brother killed definitely was. Teeth were completely flat and had a very small body. I will send the front teeth in as I like to know. I feel mine was 4.5 as it has some wear and didn't have sharp edges. There was definitely a age gap of 3.5-4.5 yr olds.

 

[southernutahhunter]

Beaver unit just keeps getting worse each year. No mature bucks to speak of and really few in overall numbers.

 

[hunt30]

Well. The late season muzzy hunts are taking bucks that old off the top, and the 3-4 year old age group just isn’t really there due to weather over the past 3-4 years. It doesn’t surprise me. There are lots of 1-2 year old bucks currently. I would guess next fall people will have better odds at some medium 3-4 points than this go round. But yeah, the super mature age class isn’t there and likely won’t be with those late hunts.

I find it hard to believe that 5-10 late muzzy hunters per unit are taking out all the upper age class deer. Especially since the hunt starts 3 days after the general rifle hunt ends. Most of these general units have a couple of thousand guys hunting with centerfire rifles 3 days earlier. Yeah, a few decent bucks get killed, but most of the late muzzy bucks I’ve seen killed are 3-4 year old bucks. I get sent 40 pictures of great bucks shot on the general rifle hunt for every one decent buck on the late muzzleloader.

 

[Oneye]

I find it hard to believe that 5-10 late muzzy hunters per unit are taking out all the upper age class deer. Especially since the hunt starts 3 days after the general rifle hunt ends. Most of these general units have a couple of thousand guys hunting with centerfire rifles 3 days earlier. Yeah, a few decent bucks get killed, but most of the late muzzy bucks I’ve seen killed are 3-4 year old bucks. I get sent 40 pictures of great bucks shot on the general rifle hunt for every one decent buck on the late muzzleloader.

I’ve had a late season muzzy tag. Got a nice buck, and it is far better circumstances than the regular rifle hunt. Of course people are killing more on the rifle hunt, but there’s only a handful of those truly upper age class bucks left on a lot of units when the rifle hunts end. Then on top of it the late muzzy hunts take them. I’ve seen several bucks I watched for years that were in the 7,8 year old age class get got because of that few days later who had always snuck just past the rifle hunt. Taking out the last few mature bucks right before the rut isn’t my favorite thing.

 

[Muleman1]

Beaver unit was great I thought

 

[bucks]

So with the deer herds struggling in most areas of the state of Utah, why not introduce Whitetail into the state.They seem to Co exist fine in states like Idaho Montana Wyoming Colorado??

 

[Bluehair]

I’m considering this thread in the context of antler point restrictions. Sounds like killing all the forkies might not be the answer to more mature head bones?

 

[middlefork]

So with the deer herds struggling in most areas of the state of Utah, why not introduce Whitetail into the state.They seem to Co exist fine in states like Idaho Montana Wyoming Colorado??

Whitetails have been in the state for quite sometime. Maybe they just aren't adapting like everyone thinks they will.

 

[BIGJOHNT]

It was so bad On Fish lake. That I stayed home this weekend and decided to dig a hole and play in the mud. When the hunt ends on the 31st its usually a good year to get on some big mature rutting bucks. But today it supposed to be 50 degrees on the mountain.

 

[muledeer]

Honestly I wonder what effect all the new technology has had on older age classes making it through. Long range shooting, rangefinders, scopes on muzzleloaders, 3 or 4 spotters if a big old deer is found. I know there is other stuff like weather. But some of it has to be the tech and drive to kill the best deer for internet fame.

 

[deerlevi]

Honestly I wonder what effect all the new technology has had on older age classes making it through. Long range shooting, rangefinders, scopes on muzzleloaders, 3 or 4 spotters if a big old deer is found. I know there is other stuff like weather. But some of it has to be the tech and drive to kill the best deer for internet fame.

So my post is Utah specific.

I don't think there's any way it hasn't impacted older age classes making it through hunts. We're getting better and better at finding and killing deer and its becoming a livelihood for more and more people (youtubers, guides etc.), so there's more and more pressure to get a deer. I'm all for going taking a step back and making things more primitive. I'd love to see a few general season units in the state (3-5 of them or something) keep the same season dates, but go to no scopes period, no rangefinder, no bino/spotting scope greater than 10 power, no guides, no trail cameras, no commercial filming etc. I think success rates would go down, and older bucks would have a greater chance to make it through the hunts. If success rates go down the dwr can issue more tags and people can get through the point system quicker. If people want to hunt with all their gizmos and gadgets they can put in for units that allow it, but would likely be harder to draw.

Along those lines I think it would be awesome if the DWR could work with the BLM, SITLA, and USFS to close access to certain areas during the rifle hunts so that people aren't pounding every ridge and extending atv trails farther and farther every year.

But I'm not king and I know every guy has their own things they would change if they were.

 

[shootem]

The whole point of option 2 was to create smaller units. Then manage those units accordingly. The DWR has not managed any unit by cutting tags since every unit is below objective yet tag numbers are still the same for the most part. Some units have seen slight reduction in tag numbers. Theoretically every unit that is not at objective should be given 0 tags until the unit is at or above objective. It just goes to show that the almighty dollar dictates how many tags are issued every year.

 

[Bigwiffy]

I'm all for primitive hunting units. Primitive meaning, archery only. Since muzzys are single shot rifles and my 6.5 CM I can kill at 2000 yards. I would love to see Late LE archery hunts replace the late LE muzzy hunts.

 

[hunt30]

No doubt that modern technology has a significant impact on hunter success. At this point, probably the simplest solution to reduce harvest would be to reduce season length. 5 day hunts would allow quite a few more deer to survive but would still allow for maximum hunter participation/opportunity. Some technology would be easy to regulate, ie. scopes on muzzleloaders, trail cameras, but most are probably here to stay.

 

[southernutahhunter]

I agree with shooter. If a unit gets extremely and below objective it needs to be shut down until they get it back on management objective. When you do not have any deer you cannot just cut a few tags each year and make progress. We just keep moving in the wrong direction.

 

[deerlevi]

No doubt that modern technology has a significant impact on hunter success. At this point, probably the simplest solution to reduce harvest would be to reduce season length. 5 day hunts would allow quite a few more deer to survive but would still allow for maximum hunter participation/opportunity. Some technology would be easy to regulate, ie. scopes on muzzleloaders, trail cameras, but most are probably here to stay.

I'm not sure if its true or not, but I've heard going to a five day season doesn't result in less deer being killed because people just hunt harder during those five days. That's probably not true regarding the archery hunt though and is probably more directed at the rifle and muzzleloader hunts. Again, I've just heard that and don't know if its true or not.

 

[middlefork]

I agree with shooter. If a unit gets extremely and below objective it needs to be shut down until they get it back on management objective. When you do not have any deer you cannot just cut a few tags each year and make progress. We just keep moving in the wrong direction.

Ok, shut down your beloved unit. I don't even care if there are others too.
But I don't believe hunting is the limiting factor. But hey it is a different 5 year plan so why not?.
You want to see results? Why not shut the state down? Or surrounding states? None seem to have the magic answers everybody's looking for..

 

[Dangbig]

I'm not sure if its true or not, but I've heard going to a five day season doesn't result in less deer being killed because people just hunt harder during those five days. That's probably not true regarding the archery hunt though and is probably more directed at the rifle and muzzleloader hunts. Again, I've just heard that and don't know if its true or not.

Everything gets shot when it was 3 day knuckleheads had to fill their tag I never seen so many spikes ab twos get killed ( on the cache)

 

[elkassassin]

And I Quote:

You want to see results? Why not shut the state down? Or surrounding states? None seem to have the magic answers everybody's looking for..

You'd Have The Opportunists BAWLING Like Babies!

Utah's Deer Herd = FUBAR!

F'D!

UP!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!

 

[hunt30]

I'm not sure if its true or not, but I've heard going to a five day season doesn't result in less deer being killed because people just hunt harder during those five days. That's probably not true regarding the archery hunt though and is probably more directed at the rifle and muzzleloader hunts. Again, I've just heard that and don't know if its true or not.

I guess I’m not sure either. I know it’s been a commonly used tactic to reduce harvest by wildlife managers over the years, and I’ve seen it used with success on a couple of units I’ve hunted in Utah over the years. That said. I also don’t see all the doom and gloom Utah hunters are expressing. Sure things could be better, but as mentioned above, mule deer are struggling in every western state. Those I’m close to have done really well in Utah that last couple of years including some awesome bucks this year.

 

[ridgetops]

This Is a Bad Question to Ask:

How Many of You Got a Glimpse of any Bucks You Figure Might be 6+ Years Old?

I Have Seen 0 This Year!

Most guys have a hard time finding a 6+ year old buck on the oak creek and pauns. Most bucks on general units that live to 6+ years are smarter the most of those hunting it and know how to hide.

 

[elkassassin]

I'll Agree with that Ridge!

But When The Full Blown Rut Rolls around & You Still Don't get even a Sneak Peak just How Many are Left?

Most guys have a hard time finding a 6+ year old buck on the oak creek and pauns. Most bucks on general units that live to 6+ years are smarter the most of those hunting it and know how to hide.

 

[DBLung]

The Manti was booming!! Deer Everywhere!! No Hunters either! If you believe, me here's the 240" monster my daughter shot.

 

[Sherlock]

The Manti was booming!! Deer Everywhere!! No Hunters either! If you believe, me here's the 240" monster my daughter shot.


View attachment 57108

DB, congrats to your daughter. Looks happy.
That said, I used to hunt the Manti back when it was good over 25 years ago. Changed a little, hasn’t it?

 

[SanPitch]

Didn’t have a tag but went out looking on Nebo last night, keep in mind it’s the start of the rut so the bucks are starting to hang with the does quite a bit, we seen a total of 186 deer which isn’t bad at all, but the problem was we seen literally 0 bucks among all those groups of does totaling almost 190, yes a Buck to Doe ratio of 0:190, incredible

 

[SanPitch]

I'm all for primitive hunting units. Primitive meaning, archery only. Since muzzys are single shot rifles and my 6.5 CM I can kill at 2000 yards. I would love to see Late LE archery hunts replace the late LE muzzy hunts.

We can make muzzleloaders primitive again, open sights only, simple as that

 

[Bigwiffy]

We can make muzzleloaders primitive again, open sights only, simple as that

How about LE archery only Nov 20th-30th on select Gen. Units? Get rid of the late muzzy hunts, back to 1x scopes on muzzys and fixed 6x on rifles.

 

[huntFX4]

I saw more mature bulls than mature bucks on my normal unit. bucks

 

[desertpointbrian]

A ton of small bucks that were slaughtered. But still a lot that survived

 

[Warbo]

Didn’t see to much on the muzzleloader hunt but seen a couple more on the rifle. No where close to what it was though. Was walking back the truck from a afternoon hunt and in one of the hay fields my uncle owns there was 3 little baby spikes. Something spooked them (could have been my brother moving sprinklers across the field but I doubt it.). But as soon as those spikes feet hit public the shooting started. All 3 of them little guys died within 5 minutes of jumping the fence. I’m just lucky I have permission to some private and get to scout most nights I want to so it didn’t matter to me but I sure wish people would let them grow a little

 

[SanPitch]

How about LE archery only Nov 20th-30th on select Gen. Units? Get rid of the late muzzy hunts, back to 1x scopes on muzzys and fixed 6x on rifles.

Sounds good to me

 

[lostinOregon]

It doesn't matter what weapon you kill them with, they are still dead. You can't have 80,000-100,000 general season tags and expect there to mature deer all over UT. It is the one thing you can control. You have folks out there on dedicated for 3 seasons until they kill a deer. It seems pretty easy to me to figure out, cut the tags. I know folks will say the want opportunity to hunt and you can't eat the horns. I get that, but hunters should be conservationist first, and if the deer herd is missing age classes of deer, then in my humble opinion the deer herd is not healthy. Don't give me the line that you need only 8-12 bucks per hundred does to breed. It should have all age classes represented after hunting season. I know this will be viewed as a trophy hunter mentality but to me it is a healthy herd mentality. Go ahead and fire away.

Rich

 

[Servehim]

I will say that Rich is spot on. Take a look at how the Jicarilla Apache tribe in NM managed their land and the awesome results. They totally stopped hunting for @5 years . Yes the genetics were in place but they were smart enough to know that a mature deer population had to be established. After that "no hunting" period they implemented a program to get buck/doe ratios at an optimum level and very importantly had an aggressive predator management program. Whammo....a success story that Utah would be proud of .

 

[deadibob]

Honestly I wonder what effect all the new technology has had on older age classes making it through. Long range shooting, rangefinders, scopes on muzzleloaders, 3 or 4 spotters if a big old deer is found. I know there is other stuff like weather. But some of it has to be the tech and drive to kill the best deer for internet fame.

everything you mentioned plus trail cams are absolutely destroying trophy class elk and deer. It's amazing that anything can get over 5 years old these days. I'd like to know what the percentage of bucks make it to even four years on Utah general units. I would guess less than 10 percent.

 

[AZGuy]

How about LE archery only Nov 20th-30th on select Gen. Units? Get rid of the late muzzy hunts, back to 1x scopes on muzzys and fixed 6x on rifles.

I like it!

 

[hossblur]

The Manti was booming!! Deer Everywhere!! No Hunters either! If you believe, me here's the 240" monster my daughter shot.


View attachment 57108

Should have seen west of Manti.

I had the entire MTN to myself from Gunnison to Ephraim, and west to Fayette. Saw 1 hunter.

Also saw 3 whole bucks. Biggest being a 2yr old.

Literally had a cat crap in tracks I'd made that morning. Kind of a big F U.

While I don't think predators is the answer for everything, that area has 2issues. Water, predators.

 

[southernutahhunter]

I also hunted the Beaver unit from muzzle through the rifle hunt. Not one mature buck and very few deer in general. I kind of wonder how many tags are really given out in these units. Maybe they give out tags by a formula Like they count deer.

 

[legacy]

This was the biggest thing I saw…

 

[deadibob]

I also hunted the Beaver unit from muzzle through the rifle hunt. Not one mature buck and very few deer in general. I kind of wonder how many tags are really given out in these units. Maybe they give out tags by a formula Like they count deer.

I gave up on the Beaver unit four years ago.After that fire in '06-'07 on the west side of I-15 it was a slaughter for a couple years. There was nowhere for the bucks to hide and for the next few years they had beautiful nearly black antlers from rubbing on burned trees.

 

[BLooDTRaCKeR]

Hunted elk for a week. Never saw a buck or a doe. Seen about 3 dozen elk though lol.

 

[Daxter]

I still don't understand the obsession with closing down the hunt or cutting buck tags in half to "save the herds"? People often say it worked, it hasn't. It DID increase buck ratios, success rates and buck age classes, but it didn't "save the herd" or grow deer numbers in any measurable way.

People cite the Book Cliffs, Henry Mtns and the entire state of Colorado as prime examples, but I think they're actually perfect examples of how closing down a unit or cutting tags in half doesn't do squat for deer numbers. YES, it does grow older bucks for a smaller number of hunters. NO, it doesn't change the trajectory of the overall deer population. Colorado went from 200,000 deer tags to less than 100,000 deer tags right around the year 2000. That was about the same time frame when they closed the Book Cliffs and Henry Mtns. completely for a few years.

When they reopened the Books and Henry Mtns. there were lots of big bucks, and a much smaller number of hunters had really high success. Colorado grew some amazing bucks in the early 2000's with half as many hunters and saw really high buck to doe ratios and healthy deer populations... for a while.

Then, CO and parts of Utah had the nasty winterkill of 2007. Many will say that things haven't been the same since. Colorado runs a much higher buck to doe ratio than Utah and they have mirrored Utah and the rest of the west when it comes to deer population trends. We had a little rebound in deer numbers after the winter of 2007, and had some pretty good years 2010-2016-17ish. Then it seemed like we had drought or hard winters or both for a period of years and deer numbers have taken a dive.

The population in the Book Cliffs has declined from about 7000 in 2017 to a current population of about 3300. The population has dropped in half, all while the unit ran at a buck to doe ratio of 30+bucks per 100 does. Research projects still showed high pregnancy rates, a concise rut, etc. Despite having plenty of bucks, the population still had the bottom drop out even with a really restrictive buck harvest. If 30+ bucks per 100 does isn't a high enough ratio to save the herd what is?

The Henry Mtns. is close to 50 bucks per 100 does and that population is also declining. Colorado runs a statewide buck to doe ratio average close to 25 and has still seen overall deer numbers decline.

Also, since going to unit by unit, Utah has reduced statewide general season deer tags by 20%+ from 90K+ to about 74K this year. Still, the deer population is declining.

The bottom line is that how we hunt bucks is NOT what is driving deer populations. That can be seen by looking at units and states that have been closed or cut in half. It can be seen by looking at all the GPS collar data, pregnancy data, fawning data, fawn survival studies, etc. that have been done in Utah in the last few years. There is zero evidence that how we hunt bucks is driving the population. Folks may have a "gut feeling" about how cutting buck tags would grow deer herds, but there is no evidence that it has worked and all the science and data currently collected also supports that too few bucks isn't the problem.

How we hunt bucks IS what drives buck quality, age and buck hunter success. But lets be honest and not confuse those two things. Closing down the buck hunt, or cutting tags in half won't cause the does to suddenly have more babies and for those fawns to survive and become reproducing adults. The truth is, we harvest very few does in Utah and our deer populations are regulated by limited resources (Carrying Capacity factors) and not by how we hunt them.

If you just want to cut tags and manage for 6 year old bucks because that is what you love, then be honest about it. Advocate for extreme quality because you love trophy deer and seeing big bucks. Don't expect to get to hunt very often, but expect it to be awesome when you do. I realize that there are a lot of guys that are honestly happy to only hunt on a rare occasion or to just help family/friends lucky enough to draw a chance to hunt really big, mature deer.

Be honest about wanting to impose your preferences and your will on others that might want to hunt more often or that might be happy to kill a "pisscutter" 3 year old, but don't try to tell them it's because you're trying to "do what's right for the herd". Be honest about what you want. It is disingenuous to try to control others because of your own preferences/agenda and then tell them it's to help the deer herd and for their own good. The same is true for the opportunity guys too, they better not be saying that killing lots of bucks is helping the deer herd. That isn't true either. We are a long way from impacting deer populations by how we harvest bucks, either too few or too many.

Neither quality nor opportunity are "right" or "wrong" they are just philosophies and preferences. I actually like how Utah has units managed for quality and other units managed for opportunity.

Of course we all just want to hunt really big deer and to do it on a regular basis. That is a tough order to fill.

 

[Bigwiffy]

Great post!

 

[hunt30]

I still don't understand the obsession with closing down the hunt or cutting buck tags in half to "save the herds"? People often say it worked, it hasn't. It DID increase buck ratios, success rates and buck age classes, but it didn't "save the herd" or grow deer numbers in any measurable way.

People cite the Book Cliffs, Henry Mtns and the entire state of Colorado as prime examples, but I think they're actually perfect examples of how closing down a unit or cutting tags in half doesn't do squat for deer numbers. YES, it does grow older bucks for a smaller number of hunters. NO, it doesn't change the trajectory of the overall deer population. Colorado went from 200,000 deer tags to less than 100,000 deer tags right around the year 2000. That was about the same time frame when they closed the Book Cliffs and Henry Mtns. completely for a few years.

When they reopened the Books and Henry Mtns. there were lots of big bucks, and a much smaller number of hunters had really high success. Colorado grew some amazing bucks in the early 2000's with half as many hunters and saw really high buck to doe ratios and healthy deer populations... for a while.

Then, CO and parts of Utah had the nasty winterkill of 2007. Many will say that things haven't been the same since. Colorado runs a much higher buck to doe ratio than Utah and they have mirrored Utah and the rest of the west when it comes to deer population trends. We had a little rebound in deer numbers after the winter of 2007, and had some pretty good years 2010-2016-17ish. Then it seemed like we had drought or hard winters or both for a period of years and deer numbers have taken a dive.

The population in the Book Cliffs has declined from about 7000 in 2017 to a current population of about 3300. The population has dropped in half, all while the unit ran at a buck to doe ratio of 30+bucks per 100 does. Research projects still showed high pregnancy rates, a concise rut, etc. Despite having plenty of bucks, the population still had the bottom drop out even with a really restrictive buck harvest. If 30+ bucks per 100 does isn't a high enough ratio to save the herd what is?

The Henry Mtns. is close to 50 bucks per 100 does and that population is also declining. Colorado runs a statewide buck to doe ratio average close to 25 and has still seen overall deer numbers decline.

Also, since going to unit by unit, Utah has reduced statewide general season deer tags by 20%+ from 90K+ to about 74K this year. Still, the deer population is declining.

The bottom line is that how we hunt bucks is NOT what is driving deer populations. That can be seen by looking at units and states that have been closed or cut in half. It can be seen by looking at all the GPS collar data, pregnancy data, fawning data, fawn survival studies, etc. that have been done in Utah in the last few years. There is zero evidence that how we hunt bucks is driving the population. Folks may have a "gut feeling" about how cutting buck tags would grow deer herds, but there is no evidence that it has worked and all the science and data currently collected also supports that too few bucks isn't the problem.

How we hunt bucks IS what drives buck quality, age and buck hunter success. But lets be honest and not confuse those two things. Closing down the buck hunt, or cutting tags in half won't cause the does to suddenly have more babies and for those fawns to survive and become reproducing adults. The truth is, we harvest very few does in Utah and our deer populations are regulated by limited resources (Carrying Capacity factors) and not by how we hunt them.

If you just want to cut tags and manage for 6 year old bucks because that is what you love, then be honest about it. Advocate for extreme quality because you love trophy deer and seeing big bucks. Don't expect to get to hunt very often, but expect it to be awesome when you do. I realize that there are a lot of guys that are honestly happy to only hunt on a rare occasion or to just help family/friends lucky enough to draw a chance to hunt really big, mature deer.

Be honest about wanting to impose your preferences and your will on others that might want to hunt more often or that might be happy to kill a "pisscutter" 3 year old, but don't try to tell them it's because you're trying to "do what's right for the herd". Be honest about what you want. It is disingenuous to try to control others because of your own preferences/agenda and then tell them it's to help the deer herd and for their own good. The same is true for the opportunity guys too, they better not be saying that killing lots of bucks is helping the deer herd. That isn't true either. We are a long way from impacting deer populations by how we harvest bucks, either too few or too many.

Neither quality nor opportunity are "right" or "wrong" they are just philosophies and preferences. I actually like how Utah has units managed for quality and other units managed for opportunity.

Of course we all just want to hunt really big deer and to do it on a regular basis. That is a tough order to fill.

Please refrain from using science, sound logic, common sense and good judgment to express facts. Our deer herd’s destiny should be determined by construction workers pretending to be biologists on the internet.

 

[Bigwiffy]

Please refrain from using science, sound logic, common sense and good judgment to express facts. Our deer herd’s destiny should be determined by construction workers pretending to be biologists on the internet.

Haha ya trust the science. How's that working out for ya?

 

[elkassassin]

Well DAX!

Don't You Think there Should Be Some Older Bucks Left Come Rut Time?

No,They Don't All Need To Be Older!

But When We Do Deer Counts In November/During the Rut,What Are We Looking At?

Yes!

PISSCUTTERS That Nobody Would Shoot During Seasons Doing Most of the Breeding!

I'm Not Saying there is None!

But there Are Damn Few Left!

JUNK Bucks/Breeding Stock Doing the Breeding Year After Year After Year after Year = JUNK!

And To Close any Unit In Utah comes From Nothing but PISS POOR Management!

There Was More than 2 Units Closed as Well!

We Hunted Several Units Down to Where They Had To Be Closed,UN-F'N-REAL!

Then There's Talk of the Severe Winter of 2007,JUDAS!

I've Been Around Long enough to see Winters That Made 2007 look like Summer Time!

Difference is:

Bucks Use To Weigh 3 Times What These PISSCUTTERS of Today Weigh & Were a Tougher Breed of Mule Deer!

These Modern Day DINKS of today Are Not Tough at all!

This BS of Not Letting anything Live Past Age 3-1/2 years for the Most Part is Total BS!

What about all the Smaller Units Now?

Wasn't They Put in Place For Better Management?

Show it To Me!

The Utah Deer Herd Is F'D Up Beyond Repair!

Won't Be Long And PISSCUTTERS/2 Points will Be Paraded Around Town Like They're Some Kind of a GAWD-DAMNED Trophy!

This Post Should Earn Me an LE Permit for 2022!

 

[Bigwiffy]

Well DAX!

Don't You Think there Should Be Some Older Bucks Left Come Rut Time?

No,They Don't All Need To Be Older!

But When We Do Deer Counts In November/During the Rut,What Are We Looking At?

Yes!

PISSCUTTERS That Nobody Would Shoot During Seasons Doing Most of the Breeding!

I'm Not Saying there is None!

But there Are Damn Few Left!

JUNK Bucks/Breeding Stock Doing the Breeding Year After Year After Year after Year = JUNK!

And To Close any Unit In Utah comes From Nothing but PISS POOR Management!

There Was More than 2 Units Closed as Well!

We Hunted Several Units Down to Where They Had To Be Closed,UN-F'N-REAL!

Then There's Talk of the Severe Winter of 2007,JUDAS!

I've Been Around Long enough to see Winters That Made 2007 look like Summer Time!

Difference is:

Bucks Use To Weigh 3 Times What These PISSCUTTERS of Today Weigh & Were a Tougher Breed of Mule Deer!

These Modern Day DINKS of today Are Not Tough at all!

This BS of Not Letting anything Live Past Age 3-1/2 years for the Most Part is Total BS!

What about all the Smaller Units Now?

Wasn't They Put in Place For Better Management?

Show it To Me!

The Utah Deer Herd Is F'D Up Beyond Repair!

Won't Be Long And PISSCUTTERS/2 Points will Be Paraded Around Town Like They're Some Kind of a GAWD-DAMNED Trophy!

This Post Should Earn Me an LE Permit for 2022!

What would you do with a LE deer tag? Drive around in your Cummins complaining there aren't 200" bucks off every road you drive?

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Big Stiffy!

Wake The F'Up!

It Ain't Just on the LE Units!

I Don't Plan On Getting an LE Deer Tag!

How's That Sound?

What would you do with a LE deer tag? Drive around in your Cummins complaining there aren't 200" bucks off every road you drive?

 

[southernutahhunter]

You forgot about the 2019 rebound when we all received the publication of 370k deer in utah mountains and more bucks than ever been recorded. Was that science or BS?

 

[elkassassin]

That Was & Is TOTAL BS!

You forgot about the 2019 rebound when we all received the publication of 370k deer in utah mountains and more bucks than ever been recorded. Was that science or BS?

 

[Bigwiffy]

Hey Big Stiffy!

Wake The F'Up!

It Ain't Just on the LE Units!

I Don't Plan On Getting an LE Deer Tag!

How's That Sound?

Donate your LE elk points to me and we will call it a deal.

 

[SanPitch]

I think the biggest problem isn’t too much buck hunting in general, maby how we buck hunt lately is a problem however, 1000 yard muzzleloaders on a hunt that’s supposed to be primitive, and then making a hunt with those muzzleloaders right in the middle of the rut? And how they pushed the rifle hunt into the rut when the bucks are most vulnerable, on top of the higher chance of winter weather with a later hunt pushing the deer down? Maby we could shorten the hunts to reduce harvest, yet still give people the chance.

But even on top of that I believe we have much bigger problems than too much harvest. Let’s start with the 10,000 deer that are hit by cars each year, they might want to think about putting more money into preventing this. As well as the large number of mortality due to lack of decent winter range and the high number of predators, surely there is some sort of better winter range improvement that can be done. And many fawns are killed by coyotes each year, now Utah has obviously put in place a plan to reduce coyotes, but where do people go to stack up coyotes to earn a dollar? The desert, where the coyotes aren’t much of a problem, nobody hunts coyotes where they need to be hunted like up in the mountains, in all honesty it’s too difficult and inconvenient. But that leaves these coyotes to rapidly take down fawns. And as far as lions go, as much as some people think they are not a problem, I do, with a decrease in deer numbers (cougars biggest prey) we must have the same decrease in lion numbers until the deer numbers go back up. It’s the basic idea of carrying capacity that we all know.

At the end of the day the division needs to get to work and they need to start now, unlike most people, I think the herds can be fixed, I doubt they will be, but they can be if they start right now, because we are however quickly approaching the point where they are unfixable.

 

[southernutahhunter]

I agree with you sanpitch . We are for sure walking a tight rope of being to late of starting the mend on these units, cutting a few more tags is not going to start the mend.