What a waste of money

cannonball

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I can understand the put and take of pheasants by planting them right before the season for the youngsters, but planting them now, expecting to get broods, blows my mind. I was heading for Glenwood a few days ago and there were four pheasants that had been hit by a car. Then the day after that I was driving down a lane and several pheasant were in the middle of the road and I could have run over a couple of them. I'm sure they had just be released.

I was talking to a fellow who owned a pheasant hunting club some years ago. He told me he had done research here and in Europe on pheasant planting and said what they are doing now is a complete waste of money. You don't get enough that will make it to the fall to put in a thimble.

Clean farming, the elimination of most ditch banks, crows, magpies, skunks, field cats, foxes, raccoon's, etc. Spent your money on chuckers for the birds. Again I say what a waste of money.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-15 AT 04:04PM (MST)[p]Cannonball, Sorry that you feel that way. There had been some studies on these hens that are let go in the spring. First of all they are let go on WMA areas. In the past these hens have been fitted with bright colored bands. It is estimated that 50% of the hens will lay eggs this year and raise a brood of 6 chicks on average to maturity. 300 hens turned loose with 150 raising a brood of 6 equals 900 new chicks. 50% roosters. That is an additional 450 roosters this fall.
If 450 hens make it through that is more hens to help out next year. There is a bounty in Sevier County on the preditors. SFW matched the funds. There is no way to repopulate the pheasants without planting birds. SFW teamed up with th Division to buy, raise, and plant birds. In some areas Pheasants Forever have provided food plots on wma areas. If you have a better way to get the pheasants back please let people know. As of right now we are seeing progress with banded hens with broods of chicks. That means progress is happening.




Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, It's about learning to dance in the rain
 
Ain't that how all "WILD" pheasants started. As they are not native to North America. All I can say is it would be nice to see more Pheasants around...
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-15 AT 06:12PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-15 AT 06:11?PM (MST)

Why is Utah so bias toward pheasant!? I like hunting all birds, but I wish the state would spend as much time & money on CHUKAR as they do on pheasant!!!
 
I understand how you feel about the pheasants. You've shared your thoughts with me before. It's wonderful that you feel that way and can express your opinion and share your thoughts. It's also wonderful the others can do the same.

Here's my logic. I helped release those pheasants you saw hit on the Highway to Glenwood. They were, for sure the pheasants we (SFW and DWR) released about ten days go. I know they were from that group of pheasants because I stopped and checked, they all had our leg bands on them.

Here's why you saw them dead on the Highway and on the other lane you drove down: the Highway and the lane border the property we release the pheasants on, they are still not conditioned to all the dangers outside of their growing pens and as you know pheasants are making nests and laying eggs, so they are moving around more right now, until they get settled on a batch of eggs. Also, they eating small pea gravel, and these roads have a lot of small gravel rocks along the edges.

As of yet these pheasants aren't smart enough to recognize the danger of vehicles, so they are more vulnerable to highway traffic. It's a known condition and loses are expected due to the location of our property.

Regarding predators.

Early loses from other factors, such as the predators that you've mentioned, are also anticipated. Regarding some of the predators, we have some very good predator hunters/trappers, that patrol the Glenwood Highway property on a regular basis, killing skunks, raccoons, foxes etc. We waited until the majority of the hawks had migrated north before we released these birds, in an attempt reduce loses to those critters. Still, with all our efforts, we know we will still lose some to predation. In an effort to deal with predation, we released an extra, extra large number of pheasants in small areas, so we can "out feed" predation. By "out feed" I mean, we believed we released far more pheasants on these locations, than the existing predators can eat, based on their "need to eat" behaviors. What ever birds are left, after the predators have eaten all they want, we believe we will have a much higher probability of hatching out a batch of chicks. That's another reason you seen so many dead and gravel pecking pheasants right now, we release a ton of them, to overwhelm the appetites of the predators.

Regarding ditch banks, water, nesting, and protective cover.
SFW/DWR planted corn and milo on approximately one third of the property and cover grasses and browse on another third. The plants grew extremely well last summer and were all left in the fields to provide feed and cover for these spring leased pheasants. The corn and milo stocks act like upright spear points to diving hawks and owls and they will not attempt to dive on a pheasant in that cover, for fear of getting skewered by the upright stocks. We'll plant more cover this year. Of course, these are pen raised birds and they have not yet learned how to protect themselves, we will see if enough can survive long enough to raise a batch of chicks what will be more natural and more capable of surviving than these released birds.

We've listened to the same comments that you received from the owner of the hunting club. We too have been told, by professionals and by others that this won't work. On the other hand, we've talk to professionals others who disagree and believe pheasants can be reintroduced successfully, if certain conditions are created.

Over the years, when it comes to wildlife management, we've been told that a lot of things don't work, that when done, using different management systems, do work.

Regarding the cost.

When we purchase chick pheasants, so we can raise rooster pheasants to release the day before the pheasant hunt, for put and take hunting opportunities, we can buy mixed gender birds far cheaper than just roosters, so we have hundreds, even thousands of hens left over. Rather than releasing all those hens last fall, with the roosters, we decided to hold them over until spring, nesting season, after some of the predators have left the valley, to determine if we could figure out a way to get them to nest and have enough survive to get a wild population re-established. You my be right, but maybe your not, we're going to give it an good try, if it doesn't work, we'll try something else. Regarding the waste, we don't see it as a waste, we see it as trying to get more out money we've already spent. Money SFW members have donated through our banquets etc. So I guess, most of it is our money to experiment with, trying hard to provide everyone more hunting opportunity. If and when our membership tell us they don't want us to use their donations on pheasants, we'll stop.

Will our releasing of these pheasants establish a wild, nesting, reproducing population. We don't know, be we are going to try. Using what some believe are "best chance" techniques. We believe we should try, you clearly do not. We both get to do what we want. So you get to "not" raise and lease pheasant, where as we do and we are. You doing your thing, us doing ours.

Regarding chukars.

Chukars are great game birds. I raised bunch of them, here at my home, last year and released them, hoping they would thrive and produce a bunch more, for hunting purposes. However, people like pheasants. They are easier to hunt and youth and seniors can hunt them without as much of an investment in energy and scouting. I have not problem if you or other groups would like to raise and release chukars, in fact I would encourage you in every way to do just that. I'm sure there are lots of people that would welcome more chukars in field. No one is telling you, you can't so why don't you?

In fact, CB, why don't you come over and I'll give you all the brooders, pens and the run I built to raise chukars last year. Just so you know, there is no problem with my doing that, I can because I paid for all the materials and all the labor, the chukars and all the feed out of my own pocket. Then I released all of them so you and others could hunt them. I'll give it all to you and you can get right after it.

You can get mail order chukars from:

Dunlap Hatchery
4703 Cleveland Blvd,
Caldwell, ID 83605
(208) 459-9088

This is were I purchased mine. Mail order. Never lost a chukar in the mail, they all arrived alive and hungry.

If I sound a little perturb, I might be. It would be like my criticizing you for things you do that you believe might helpful for someone. Those of us putting in the time, labor and the resources on these pheasants are not doing it just for ourselves, it's for others too. The absolute truth is, we've release pheasants for four years in a row, hauled them around the country, feed them, medicated them, donated our money for them, and I know at least four of the ten guys that have been most involved with the local effort that have never hunted a single pheasant in the last four years. We've released them then watched while countless others, who have contributed nothing but purchasing a hunt license, shoot them. That's why we do it, for them and for you, if you care to take you shotgun out there and give it a go.

All the best my friend. Please slow down a little on those lanes and highways, for the next six weeks, while these hens are trying to raise a batch of chicks. Strange as it might seem, I hate to see them smashed to pieces as much as you do.

DC
 
Some of the Birds that have been set out for Pheasant Hunters by SFW & other Donated Help happens just a day or two/short time before Opening Morning!

You don't have to be a BIRDIE BIOLOGIST to know the Survival Rate let alone Reproduction Rate is Damn Near Zero!

Them Pheasant Hunters Buy Licenses too!

They wanna see/Maybe shoot a Bird or two!

Let's Protect some more Small Game Predators shall We?

Damn Straight I'll get my Ass Chewed!

Oh Well!

I think the local RMEF got involved this Fall year with setting a few Birdies out as Well?

The Pheasant Survival rate has SUCKED for many years!

Kinda like the TARDville Deer Herd!

Everybody is gonna Blame one reason Why when there are many Reasons Why!








We laugh, we cry, we love
Go hard when the going's tough
Push back, come push and shove
Knock us down, we'll get back up again and again
We are Members of the Huntin Crowd!
 
And one more thing!

I'll bet there's some BIRDIE WATCHERS/PHOTOGRAPHERS that just wanna see some Birds!:D



We laugh, we cry, we love
Go hard when the going's tough
Push back, come push and shove
Knock us down, we'll get back up again and again
We are Members of the Huntin Crowd!
 
Thanks 2lumpy for your tme and effort. I was fortunate to have some great bird hunting this last year literaly right out my back door. I am hopeful for repeat after feeding a big flock of jens and roosters this winter. If you need a place to dump some let me know....i wont complain about your efforts
 
Not only have the birds been released in Sevier County and Millard County, Utah county got a bunch last week. We released 400 hens. What suprized mr was the rooster carry over from the hunt. The first plase we stopped a hen was squawking while being taken out of the crate. There were 3 different roosters that started crowing waiting for the hen. There was several times a rooster would go after a hen as they flew by. I am just glad that the dwr is headed in the direction of trying to bring the pheasants back. I am also glad that there is a group putting there money into something like this. I am also greatful i have been able to donate time and money as my grandkids will be ableto hunt some birds.
As for chuckars, there are people also involved in raising them and turning them loose to help with the population. They are turned loose in areas in the hills where there are no roads. They live different than pheasants thus are released different. By the way, a few of us have taken a trip to Nebraska yo see different ways of raising pheasants.
 
Good work men. I always see dead birds on the roadsides when drivin thru pheasant country, Nebraska, Iowa, South Dakota. Just part of the deal when there's a good # of birds about.
 
Shotgun, I have seen there numbers. I have also been involved in studies weredoing in Utah. They say pen raised pheasants are a waist of time. We have put high visable bands on birds released and seen the hens with brood . It is working in Utah. Now I guess you will need to decide what you want to believe. The pros also said deer could not be translocated. The pros said
wolves would not hurt the moose. Elk numbers would not go down. Maybe pheasants forever have no desire to plant pheasants. All I know is we are doing it in Utah and right now it seams to be working.
 
LOL
Cannon
We use to release just Roosters,
NOW We Release only hens every year and it Has make a huge improvement. We see those pen raised birds with chicks and we see those chicks turn in to adult birds.
It really is nice when the farmers keep seeing the results and are around them every day seeing the same broods and know that those are pheasants that have been release. Last year we had some(about10%) that had a double hatch and we really got our money worth from those birds.For the first few months they are a lighter in color then the wild ones,so it easier to know which ones that are wild and which ones are released birds, It don't take them long to start hanging with the wild ones either, You can easy see when that starts happening in the mornings as they are hanging on the roads sides get some grit.
Habitat is still the key to good retain of those release birds You can't just drop them off in a field and hope they make it.
Cover,food,water, and other wild birds are a few of the keys.

BUT release birds does work in South Dakota.
Clark County Pro pheasant released a few thousand hens a year the last few years back there and really show's in the fall.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
An area where I have family that owns a big chunk of farm ground used to be surrounded by farms leased to a small pheasant club. For 12 years this pheasant club only released birds during the hunt, and their hunting season ended in February.
The club started holding back a large number, if I remember right about 300, of hens to release in late march-april after their seasons had closed. The numbers of pheasants in the area skyrocketed the next 4 years, we would be out there in the summer and early fall and easily see 2-3x more pheasants than previous years. Maybe it was all a fluke and they just had perfect nesting conditions and a natural population boost, but I don't believe in coincidence. Unfortunately the club lost some leases and ended up closing down years ago, numbers have slowly dropped in the area the last 5 years.
I think pheasants forever takes a bit of an extremist stand against pen raised birds. I am a paying member of PF, but still don't necessarily take everything they preach as doctrine. Pheasants forever pushes for habitat protection, and rightly so, because no matter how many thousands of pen birds you raise and release, they won't make it without protection and forage of good habitat. Our first effort HAS to go to habitat. Sounds like the habitat is there in this area, some of these pen birds will figure it out, if 1/4 hens survives and nests, it will probably show a success.
As far as the birds on roads, I raise free ranging chickens, in the summer the new birds start venturing out into the road to eat pea gravel and salt from winter plowing...a few end up squished right off the bat, the rest figure it out pretty quick and I won't have another roadkill until the next year.

Pheasants were introduced by the very methods they are using now to supplement populations, must have somehow worked in the first place.
 
I have loved hunting pheasants in the past here in the valley and I would love to be wrong. Everything I have read and heard about it shows your not getting a good bang for the buck. Lumpy you are right I don't have any right to complain where SFW puts their money, but when the DWR participates and I purchase a license and pay taxes here in Utah I do have a right. You can't count the pheasants in a small area or field where the habitat is being grown for pheasants and call it a success when the farm ground around it is not productive for hardly any pheasant populations. Those who compared us with the mid west states has their head in the sand.

Should any of you want to see how successful planting pheasants is where the farming practices are similar to us call Lovell, WY and I don't know whether their answer will show successful or not. I only know over the years they have put a lot of money planting pheasants there.

This is just an after thought. Try and get onto that land next to where they are planting pheasants. NO TRESPASSING. Back in the good o'days you could hunt the whole valley and see very few signs. Now, even is there isn't a sign up and it is being cultivated you can't enter it without WRITTEN permission.

As I have said, I will repeat - - hope it's not pouring money down a gopher hole.
 
Cannonball,
So what would you suggest is a good spend on the money? What do you do with your time to better the future of wildlife. I've watched you over the last year complain and throw those that consider you a friend under the bus consistently. Too me I just don't get that? Grab a shotgun and enjoy the pheasant hunting or complain and belittle the efforts of those trying to make things better. Funny how time changes all of us, there was a time I know you'd have welcomed anytime spent out hunting with friends. Now it's better to throw shots on the internet at others.

One of my all time favorite youthful memories was chasing bucks on the tv towers on Fishlake archery hunt. Bouncing out across the lava infested road in a red and white Ford Bronco II, with a guy I respected the hell out of and was excited to spend time on the mountain with. I miss that kinda stuff compared to this internet crap! Take care my friend and here's to new memories of hunts to come!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-15 AT 10:04PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-15 AT 10:03?PM (MST)

People are passionate about this topic, I understand that. The fact is that there is a ton of scientific peer reviewed literature that says at the POPULATION level pen release programs do not work. Find me peer reviewed scientific tested research that says the contrary....you can't. There is a reason. Say that this release is the last release they do, would you expect that in five years you will see a increase in birds at the population level given everything else remains constant? I'd bet the farm you don't. Yea there is small anecdotal instances where people see more of this and that but again the science shows at the population level it isn't money well spent. If my money was being spent contrary to good science I would have questions. Yea it feels good and it generates good PR for membership but there is a reason science based organizations like Pheasants Forever do not condone it. Like a broken record I will say it is more about habitat, complex and diverse habitat.

For example take the Sevier River through the mentioned valley. Look at the piss poor condition it is in most spots. It is farmed to the stream bank, diked up, armored with rock, or meanders straightened by heavy equipment, and in most cases all of the above have occurred. Look at historic aerial photos and compare them with current ones. I have. Notice what's happened to floodplain habitat, adjacent wetland, oxbow habitat, and wet meadows. These habitat types have been drastically reduced to nearly non-existent in the valley. These same, nearly non-existent habitats are critical nesting, brood-rearing, and even wintering areas. These wet and moist areas produce massive amounts of insects and guess what chics need to grow and survive... you guessed right if you said protein rich insects. So yes, it does come back to habitat.

I don't say this to diminish any of the efforts by well intentioned, passionate, hard working people. I applaud their effort and am very grateful. Hek, the said WMA where the pheasants have been raise and released is undergoing habitat improvements for many species of wildlife.
 
Lots of comments made and lots of opinions. I know lots of work has been completed both in habitat and food plots. The birds in Utah county that were turned loose were met with roosters that were turned loose last fall and survived both the hunters snd the mild winter. Bands on the legs tell the story. Hens last year with bright colored bands with broods also so results. So say and believe what you want that is your choice but results are showing positive meaning in this planting is working. There are birds surviving.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-15 AT 11:23PM (MST)[p]You can turn pheasants loose in a gravel pit and they'll live there long enough to get hunters there to kill them. Probably not going to see many surviving to reproduce.

There's a drastic difference between having a self-sustaining population of pheasants VS. the "put and take" stocking that happens.

I don't think anyone is saying that stocking birds doesn't provide opportunity, only that to try to sell it as an eventual self-sustaining situation is a bit disingenuous.

In Wyoming, birds have been planted for many years in popular hunting areas, and there is very little, if any survivability...let along natural reproduction.

Peaks post is 100% spot on...its all about the habitat.
 
There's more than Habitat to it BuzzH!

When there's a GAWD-DAMNED Government Protected Pheasant Eating Predator Bird Perched on every Power Pole & Tree in the Valley they Ain't gonna Survive!

Now Add the:

Coons!

Skunks!

Red Foxes!

Grey Foxes!

Coyotes!

Ravens!

MagPies!

Crows!

TARDS!

Vehicles!

Poachers!

Wild House Cats!

A Wolf would make a Snack out of a Pheasant if given the chance!

Now You've got a F'N Problem!

And if you live by the Rules there's no way to Fix it!

People get Pissed when some Money is used for Planting Birdies/Pheasants!

If somebody don't throw a few out what's people like wiley gonna Hunt?

Most people get Mad when they hear of the SFW throwing a few Birds out!

They think every Red Cent should be for the Poorly Managed Deer Herd!

You can Blame Habitat all you want,and I agree,that's part of the Problem,but if you think it's the only Problem you are very Blind & Secluded!

Keep Throwin the Pheasant Hunters a Bone the night before Season as they like to Hunt just like the rest of us!

Them Tame Birds probably don't Taste much different than a Wild Bird!:D




We laugh, we cry, we love
Go hard when the going's tough
Push back, come push and shove
Knock us down, we'll get back up again and again
We are Members of the Huntin Crowd!
 
I am not a huge fan at all of SFW, but I LIKE that THEY are trying something. NOBODY has tried a thing. I grew up pheasant hunting our family farm in Annabelle. The greatest memories I have growing up with uncles and cousins and my DAD, lined up watching the clock tick 8 AM to start the 1st dich bank, then down through all the fields. Yelling of ROOSTER, HEN, or SOB and many other words still in my mind. Driving all around the valley watching fence lines looking for the roosters. Man how I miss those days. I am just glad there is someone willing to try and bring that back. THANKS SFW for this effort.

I look back at LakeShore in Utah county. They release birds every year and yet, throughout the year visiting a family friend at lakeshore, we see pheasants. And the I always ask, HOW are the birds looking this year? He always tells me he sees quite a few broods and how many roosters/hens/chicks are seen. Now that place gets the crap hammered out of it for 3 days, and yet there are still birds. I think it helps. Just my opinion.
 
Muley, I was going to spew back at you, but I am not going to. I will just say this, my view has not changed on this subject in 20 years and your Dad has known it. I have no problem with put and take of pheasants. We complain about the DWR never having enough money for predator control and other things. if anybody challenges SFW, or any other subject that you endorse, they have no right to their opinion. Dull your tongue once in a while and quit making it so personal.
 
I know we will not all agree on this subject and that is what makes America great. Though some people may think money is being waisted, I would bet if SFW stopped this practice people would slam them for that. In three years watching what we done in different areas with success showing SFW will continue with trying to bring back pheasants. We will be working on increasing predator control and make better hunting for those who both like us and hate us. Until people quit just complaining and come up with better methods we will do what we can. If you have a better way to get things done, get involved and make it happen. Complaining accomplishes nothing.



Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, It's about learning to dance in the rain
 
Cannonball,
My sharp tongue doesn't prevent you from having an opinion. It is only an opposing opinion. Like I've said before if you jump on the stump to hollar then you should be willing to handle the feed back.
Complaining constantly solves.......?????? Let me know when you get the answer.
 
My opinion is to spend the DWR money on chucker and predator control for deer. Here is my reasons why: 1) Pheasants Forever and many other sources say the you get very poor return for your money. 2) In Sevier County almost all ground is posted NO TRESPASSING so if don't know who has a field or a friend who has a field, you're out in the cold. Most chucker hunting areas are on government land, thus open to us all.

Cody I have said the last on this subject. I can see I shouldn't have even started this topic. I have just felt passionate about this subject and done so for years. I sorry you think my point of view should have been written.
 
In no way, shape or form am I defending SFW on this, BUT, why chuckars over pheasants? I would love to hunt chuckars but dont know where to hunt them besides the hills. Yes its usually public land, but VERY DEMANDING! Yet, my father in law or family friend cant hunt chuckars because of knees and age, but yes they can walk a few ditches and fences to find a rooster. I think that with all sides working together on this, and looking at all sides, it can work. In sevier county, everyone knows everyone....almost. I am sure people could find someone to let them hunt a fence.
 
Heh, utardia game bird farming (or a destined to fail attempt at such)

Birdman, "bring back pheasant", from where? The great state of East Asian Utah?

Plant and blast is cool enough recreation for those who like that kind of thing I guess, but where does the money to fabricate this "hunting opportunity" come from?

Or does SFW auction off Chinese Ringneck hunt permits at their Expo to fund it?

Just curious..."wildlife" management in UT has always perplexed me.

Thanks
 

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