Utah Point Creep

[cannonball]

The deer point creep that every one is getting so excited over, can be corrected with the snap of the fingers. The only thing that would be required is have a one draw system for deer. No more special Henrie, Pauns, Bookcliffs, etc. Combine all the deer points accumulated to date and start the one draw system. Some will hunt every year and some will only hunt every four to five years. You select your poison. Hunt lots or hunt quality, your choice.

This existing point creep is ridiculous.

 

[Daxter]

Personally, I love the idea.

The only modification I would make is to have class 1 and class 2 deer areas. The class 1 areas are our current limited entry units, class 2 are our current general areas. If you apply for a class 1 unit as your first choice you can't apply for a limited entry elk hunt. If you put a class 2 deer unit as your first choice you can apply for LE elk. That way we don't suddenly have every LE deer applicant also applying for LE elk.

I would also love to see the creation of some new deer hunts, like an early high country buck, maybe a few late muzz tags on some general season units, etc. Looking for ways to add a few more quality hunting opportunties without having to make an entire unit limited entry and while keeping these type of tags at a level where it wouldn't have a big negative impact on general season hunters. This might give us something of a middle ground between our current LE and general season units. Creates more units for people to apply for, spreads applicants out, helps with point creep.

Just my personal opinion.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.

 

[BeDawg]

Amen

 

[goofyelk]

I LOVE THAT IDEA !!!

Needs to be pushed through the Rac to the WB ...

I'd support it!

 

[Bwht4x4]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 10:33PM (MST)[p]Great idea!

If they would combine the LE deer and general deer points into one point total for each person that would be great! It would sure help weed out those that haven't been diligent in applying for both each year.

 

[PleaseDear]

Dax,

Simplified just a pinch to---

No class 1 or class 2---simple all units together--

Ya draw 1st choice ya loose all your points, no waiting period to apply after drawing, back to 0 points......

Draw 2nd thru 5th choice and ya keep your points....

Just thinking----

Robb

 

[Packout]

Don't combine points. Each applicant just keeps their highest point level. So if someone has 11 LE points and 2 General Points then they just have 11 Deer points. Or if someone had 3 General Points and 1 LE then they would have 3 deer points. Point Creep will be increased if you add both types of points together. Give a 2 year notice of the change so people can attempt to use their points, then make the change.

Call them Limited Deer-- no more LE, Premium or General, just Limited Deer. Change the current draw process and look at each applicants first choice before the 2nd+ choices.

The whole elk issue is a mess. They don't want to change the deer system because people are worried (and rightfully so) that the elk odds will worsen. There are many people who will fight anything which worsens their odds to draw. The idea of Class 1 and 2 will make it confusing for some, but might be the only way to get the elk applicants on board.

The current system needs to change. We have points for LE, General (is there really a general hunt?) and Dedicated Hunter. All just to hunt deer.......

 

[fin little]

I dont know about deer points being combined. I havnt given it much thought yet. I do like the idea of having some quality hunts on some general units ( nov muzz, archery or early high country rifle) as a way to move more people thru the limited entry deer pool. Easier sell IMO. I would jump at an early Nov muzz hunt.

 

[338boy]

This is what the DWR LIKES TO SEE! Hunters confused and debating how to play with points, or any other distraction. Fighting over an ever shrinking pie. Crumbs are all that remain.
There used to be more than 500,000 deer in Utah.(I lived and hunted during those years) I'm so sorry for those who did not!
When are sportsmen going to demand an answer?
WHY IS THE UTAH DEER HERD AT HALF OF OBJECTIVE?
WHY IS THE OBJECTIVE HALF OF HISTORIC NUMBERS?
RESTRICT HUNTERS ,DECLINING DEER HERD!


Oh!, by the way, this idea has been proposed before by a certain conservation group in the past.

 

[Zeke]

Like any other change, it will benefit some and harm others.

Points creep is a real issue but is it a problem? It's just part of THIS system and a way to keep the maximum people involved in the application process.

Simply, there's too much demand on a shrinking resource.

338boy has it right, why are the deer herds so damaged? We know it's a complex answer but we already have some of the answers and the F&G seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it.
The resource still gets the crap pounded out of it even with the 30 units and the supposed reduction in tags!

Maybe too many OLD does taking up space in the habitat???

There are some tough times ahead for our beloved mule deer!

I wish we had all the answers. Maybe changing the system isn't one of them???

Zeke

 

[cannonball]

I agree with you, so start your own topic. We need to work on that also, but it's going to take time. This point creep is something that can be corrected in one year with enough momentum and support, but a lot of pressure would need to be applied. I think the support is there, but I'm not sure. If you're not one to go to the RAC Meetings, write to the BGB and the RAC members.

 

[CM]

I totally agree with only one set of deer points. One issue that would have to be ironed out is lifetime license holders. The state is contractually bound to give them a tag every year. Maybe they can only get their tags on units that take 3 or less points to draw, or something like that. This would require a lot of thought to come up with something fair and legal.

I also think that the waiting periods are a joke (especially the 5 year elk waiting period). I would like Utah to make people front the money for the tag, then refund the money if not successful in the draw, just as Wyoming and Colorado do (for non-residents at least, I don't know what the rules for residents are). This would cut out a lot of the people that apply for everyone in their family regardless of if they enjoy/want to hunt or not.

I agree that ultimately the root problem is there is too much demand on a shrinking resource.

 

[pookiebar]

I think that there is a way to "fix" some of the point creep in all LE tags. The OIL tags are a different animal all together.

My proposal, if the system stays generally the same is sure not going to be popular but it would help to flush the system of some of the high point holders, and in the long run I think it would help.

Currently in all areas 50% of the tags go to the highest point holders and 50% go to a general draw for the remaining people who put in.

My proposal would be to randomly, and that is the key, randomly take 20% of the LE areas each year and give all, 100% of the tags in those randomly selected to the highest poiint holders. The reason this has to be random is because that is the only way to keep people involved, and it is as fair as I can come up with.

As a couple of for examples

The San Juan general bull unit they gave out 21 tags total. 35 people had the highest points of 19 and all 10 point tags went there and the 11 remaining went elsewhere. Now if for just one year you gave all 21 tags to the highest point holders it would get them out of the system and aid the creep.

OR like in the Wasatch general bull area, they gave out 174 tags total. If you gave all 174 of the tags to the highest point holders, it would flush out 174 hunters with points ranging from 16 at the high end to 13 on the low.

I know this is getting long winded, but I have thought about this problem quite a bit.

But basically if you just gave 20% of the tags out to highest point holders over a 3-5 year period you would be able to flush out 24,000 - 40,000 of the highest point holders in the elk hunts respectively. Well guess what, 40,000 is pretty much all the resident people who put in for elk tags this past year.

Or for the deer LE tags you would be able to flush the system again in 5 years.

Now the biggest key to this would be to have some alternate system waiting to replace the current on after the 5 year correction period. Not sure what that system might be, but we would hopefully design that before starting any of what I proposed.

 

[cannonball]

That's not really a problem. When I was going to purchase a lifetime license, I called the DWR in Salt Lake and they told me that should they go to a draw(this was before it existed) I would not be guaranteed a certain area, only a permit in the State of Utah. They have since changed that part of the Life Timers.

Give them four choices and when their number comes up, if the other three are filled they are guaranteed their forth choice or something close to that.

 

[Packout]

Utah only gives 2,000-2,500 ltd elk permits every year. If 100% of le elk permits go to the highest point holders it would take 15-20 years to get through the 40,000+ current applicants.

The general deer issue is made even worse because thousands of applicants are using their points to obtain permits without losing their points. They are also gaining an additional point so they stay ahead of those behind.

 

[PleaseDear]

"Don't combine points. Each applicant just keeps their highest point level. So if someone has 11 LE points and 2 General Points then they just have 11 Deer points. Or if someone had 3 General Points and 1 LE then they would have 3 deer points. Point Creep will be increased if you add both types of points together. Give a 2 year notice of the change so people can attempt to use their points, then make the change."

The only issue I have with that is that WE paid for all our points Gen/LE.......if we buy something it is ours type deal.

Just a thought for fairness across the board.

Robb

 

[cannonball]

I had a second thought about deer. Why not simplify it and leave the point system like it is except change the proclamation to read one may only only apply for one buck deer(end of story). Thus no more limited entry applications AND regular application. It would be EITHER of the two. Then they could easily make an exception for the life time permit holders as exists today.

I think you would see the long line of point creep disappear and you could select your type of hunting which, to me, would be more fair for all deer hunters.

 

[BradN]

That would cause DWR to lose money. Won't happen.

 

[Packout]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-13 AT 10:13AM (MST)[p]That is tough because once you make a decision you are stuck with it. They would also have to issue general permits in another means as those permits would not sell-out in the draw on a larger scale. I can't imagine the UDWR wants to have left-over sales again. So wouldn't ltd hunters get a general permit anyway?

The fairest way to do it is to have one point system (not the current 3) and people get to choose each year how they would like to spend those points. Different point systems to hunt deer in Utah is what is causing the current issues. One point system should be sufficient.

There could still be a preference and bonus draw with one point system. All units which take more than 5 or so points to draw are given on a Bonus Basis. All units which take 4 points or less to draw are given on a preference basis. The "Points-to-Draw" is established by the previous year's odds or an average of previous years'.

Robb- I understand what you are saying, but is purchasing a point for $10 a lifelong contractual agreement with the UDWR? If you combine points then you'll see lots of people with higher combined points jumping over others with high ltd points or high general points. For example, my wife has 13 Bonus Points and 4 Pref Points. That moves her into a different class of LTD units. But I am against doing so.

 

[cannonball]

You could have the jump over by having second and third choices. Right now the first choice is the only one that counts anyway in most circumstances. No loss of money and the draw of points would come from which ever the hunt is drawn now.

 

[grizzly]

A couple of thoughts... Switching to one point system with a combination Preference/Bonus Point system for high demand units is what Colorado does (NM also has High Demand unit designations). It really isn't too complicated. Basically, if a unit takes 5 or more points to draw, it turns from a true Preference Point to a Modified Bonus Point.

Wyoming says for OIL tags you must have at least 5 points before your name even goes in the hat. Basically you have no chance of drawing those tags until you have at least 5 years skin in the game. This rule could apply to our High Demand units.

My point is that these systems exist, models for us to look at are already in place.

One more thought... Idaho Fish and Game produced some great videos (maybe somebody can find the link, I can't) about draw odds and the various systems they are considering. A key to this discussion is YOU CAN'T IMPROVE OVERALL DRAW ODDS!!!

The draw odds are simply available tags divided by applicants. Unless you increase tags, or decrease applicants... the overall odds don't change.

Here is an example. If you have 10 tags and 100 applicants, the odds of drawing are 1 in 10. The current system takes those 100 applicants and puts a massive number of entries into the hat depending on points of each applicant. Lets say there are now 1000 names in the hat (some have 1 point, others have 15 or more, but the entries total 1000). Overall, the 1000 entries represent 100 hunters which are still fighting for 10 tags. At the end of the day, 1 in 10 hunters will get a tag.

You didn't affect the overall odds, you only increased the likelihood of a long-term average for the 100 applicants. YOU DON'T CHANGE THE ODDS!

I believe Utah needs a combination of systems... We all know they won't decrease applicants to improve odds (as that diminishes revenue), so the only true way to increase odds is to move people through the system faster and increase tags. The only way to do that is by choosing weapons/seasons with lower success rates. Give more non-rut elk tags, more archery deer tags, spread seasons out (like many states do for elk).

With lower-success seasons, you can have twice the hunters in the field and getting to hunt each year (and still not have crowding since they are spread out), without putting harm into herds or removing any more animals than the current level. The idea is that 100 pre-rut archery hunters kill as many elk as 20 rifle hunters during the rut, but you got 5x the people through the system (and raised more money). Combine this with one point-system for deer (like Colorado) and you may be on to something.

Grizzly

 

[cannonball]

I guess there is a little loss of money which could be made up by increasing the permit fee with an extra 5 bucks.

Pack out think of what you said - You should have to live with your decision. It is just that a person would only have one try until everyone has had a chance, then the second choice would take place, then the third choice would take place.

 

[cannonball]

Here again Grizz I'm sure you're an archery hunter and that's why your saying, "YOU DON'T CHANGE THE ODDS", which is true overall, but you "WOULD CHANGE THE ODDS ON SOME OF THE PREMIUM HUNTS" and that is what this is all about. As far as the archery goes, they may show a lower "tagged" season which is recorded, but I'm here to tell you that I have talked to so many archers that have wounded deer that it is disgusting. They have pins up to 70 yards which is way beyond a lot of the "practice the night before the hunt dudes". If they have pins that far and a range finder you can be sure they will take the shot.

 

[broadfork]

Grizzly,
I agree with you 100%. I think if you had more primitive weapon hunts, you would move more people through without hurting the resource. In my opinion, there is no reason to have the most effective weapon during the rut for elk. It limits the resource. look at the Wasatch unit. Bull after bull getting knocked down. How long can that unit sustain that?

There really should be only one deer system. The whole state went limited two years ago. Start flushing more people though by making people choose. I personally would just keep putting in for a "general" unit, because I like to hunt every year. There are a few good bucks still to be had. If people had to choose I think it would decrease competition for high demand tags. I believe in time all units would start to see an increase in quality. Just my thoughts

 

[Ticks N Tines]

I agree, open more primitive weapon hunts up. Give out archery management bull elk tags, late season muzzleoader elk and deer tags on the WMAs in November, and create more opportunites for applications. This will break up a lot of poeple and increase odds in my opinion. It also provides more money to the DWR, so I'm sure they will approve of the idea

 

[Downrange]

Hate that idea. all you have to do is square the pts and point creep will disappear over time. if you have 10pts squared is 100 chances at a low number. 9pts give you 81 chances at a low number. i think pretty soon you will weed out those with high bonus pts and the pt creep will slowly disappear

 

[Zeke]

Points creep will never disappear as long as we have a points system! (and I like a points system)

The guy who has some skin in the game will not drop his points to hunt a general or primitive season. Period.

If you go with lots of "primitive" opportunity, they will require lesser points to draw but the primier units will not be affected at all. OIL hunts will never be affected.

But if you goal is to "eliminate" points creep from all segements of the draw, it just won't happen, at least on the top tier units. It will make a general tag easier to draw, Big deal.

If you're going to push through any kind of points restructure, you'd better be able to pitch it to the F&G in a manner which will show that they will make MORE money not prtential loss or reveue.

Bottom line is, we have way more demand than our resource can fill and the true odd will not change regardless of restructuring the points system. (I know, "start my own resource thread")

Zeke

 

[grizzly]

Cannonball, you miss my point. This isn't about archery, it is about more tags issued for hunts with lower success rates; of which, archery is one. You could accomplish that with more archery tags, rifle tags outside of the rut, late muzzy elk tags, true "Primitive Weapon" muzzy tags, etc... I'm not making an "archery" case, I'm making a much broader argument.

edwardssc, squaring points is another farce. It doesn't increase odds. It simply takes my example above and raises the 100 applicants' entries from 1000 names in the hat to 5000. Odds are still 1 in 10 any given hunter will get a tag. The objective is not to increase odds for any one applicant, it is to average out the odds over a longer period of time.

I wish I could find that series of videos that IDFG did on the subject. It explains it very clearly. It even takes into account massive projections as to how different groups of hunters would respond to different scenarios concerning their own application strategy. These projections are based on thousands of hunter surveys and compiled mathematically (not some anecdotal internet forum).

It was discussed heavily on the Idaho forum, I just can't find it.

Grizzly

 

[Packout]

The reason it takes 12 years to draw a Book Cliffs deer tag is because a guy can put in for that unit and if unsuccessful then he can draw his general season unit and go hunt. IF you have only one point system, then that guy will have to choose to wait for years to draw the Books or he can draw his preferred unit every so often and go hunt. And he can still draw not-as-preferred tags 2nd+ choice in off years.

Cannon- I have thought out this topic and have sat in meetings when it was discussed. Have your hunting "ideals/desires" changed over the past 10 years? Mine sure have. The idea you presented is a system which essentially "locks" in you choice for years to come. You first said a guy had to choose between the two, but now you are saying he gets to apply for a LTD 1st and Gen 2nd. That would be accomplished with a single point system. Guys would have to choose to draw a hard to draw tag and risk not getting their preferred Gen unit or they would have to spend their points to hunt their preferred unit.

Zeke- I think you are right, there will always be creep, but wrong on people jumping out of the semi-high pools. If a guy enjoys hunting the Wasatch West then he is waiting 0-1 year for a tag. If that same guy has 8 Bonus Points is he going to wait 5-10 years to draw a ltd unit without drawing his preferred area? I doubt it. How long is a guy willing to sit at home while others hunt his "gen" unit? Draw a Book Cliffs tag every 10 years or draw Wasatch West 8 times in 10 years.

The idea of a single point system has been bantered about for years. Problem is that no one seems to come to a conclusion on how to do it. Whatever happens someone will be hurt a little, but having only 1 deer point would benefit many in the long-run.

 

[Daxter]

I like the ideas you guys have.

I agree this is a discussion about how to divide the pie, not about how to make the pie bigger. Making the pie bigger is the top priority, but to me as a hunter that applies for tags this is an important discussion too.

Also, I have to slightly disagree with Grizzly. I think this kind of change would actually improve drawing odds. Granted, draw odds are equal to the number of applications divided by the available tags. But, we are letting people put in TWO applications to hunt deer, if they could only put in 1 application to hunt deer it would increase the odds.

I also like the idea of adding some additional hunts.

Another idea, in NV you burn you deer points if you get a deer tag. It doesn't matter if you get a 1st-5th choice or a pick up a leftover after the draw. You hunt deer = your points are gone. That would move lots people through the system. I think it would improve the odds for both LE and general season hunts at the same time.

Just my personal opinion as a deer hunter.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.

 

[cannonball]

You guys are trying to make it too complicated and sway it to the special interest group of hunters under the pretense of more available hunting permits which does hold some water for elk, but really not deer. I know of several people who now put in for the limited entry deer who, if only given one choice, would rather hunt every year to every other year, than wait and hunt every five years on a limited entry unit. There would be a lot, in my estimation, that would elect the other hunts and not do the limited entry units. Sacrifice, you bet it would be a sacrifice, especially for the greedy ones who want it all.

A one permit draw with second and third choice would vastly decrease the point crawl, but with one draw back. If you continue to put in for the limited entry you are not going to hunt every year or every other year.

 

[Zeke]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-13 AT 01:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-13 AT 01:11?PM (MST)

So are you saying that if deer goes to one point system that the applicant may NOT apply for elk? It should be so because currently there are guys who have sacrificed to obtain lots of deer points and have been unable to apply for elk.

Choose one species or the other. That's the only "fair" way to move to a one-point-system for deer. The guys with a pile of deer points are the ones who will "sacrifice" the most because they're so far behind on elk points! The "greedy" ones will be who have a bunch of elk points since a change would not affect then at all!

Remember, with all change someone is helped and someone is hurt!
Zeke

Edit: I nede to pruf reed bedder

 

[cannonball]

What I would like to see would be so simple - ONE DRAW FOR DEER(exception -anterless) - nothing else changes. Second and third choices neither gain a point or lose a point. The dedicated sportsmen who draw a limited entry only get to hunt one year then go back into the system for other units. If it is your last year you lose it, if is your first year you delay it. Middle year you lose it - Just like now.

If you put in for a limited entry and do not draw and elect to put in for second choice and that unit goes undersubscribed on the first choice you most likely with draw.

Even though elk may come into the picture at a later date, I would like see this concentrated effort for deer

 

[Zeke]

But, but, but, you cannot change the deer DRAW system without affecting the elk DRAW system.

You say it's simple, and it is, but someone gets helped and someone gets hurt. Simple as that.

Zeke

 

[grizzly]

I found the Idaho Fish and Game videos I mentioned above.

It is a 7-part series. It is referencing Idaho, but the information can easily be applied to Utah. Anybody that wants some true information on odds, success rates, harvest rates, revenue conflicts, point systems, etc... really should watch this.

It is very informative. Much more than speculation among all of us on these forums.

Grizzly

 

[hossblur]

>"Don't combine points. Each applicant just
>keeps their highest point level.
>So if someone has 11
>LE points and 2 General
>Points then they just have
>11 Deer points. Or if
>someone had 3 General Points
>and 1 LE then they
>would have 3 deer points.
>Point Creep will be increased
>if you add both types
>of points together. Give a
>2 year notice of the
>change so people can attempt
>to use their points, then
>make the change."
>
>The only issue I have with
>that is that WE paid
>for all our points Gen/LE.......if
>we buy something it is
>ours type deal.
>
>Just a thought for fairness across
>the board.
>
>Robb

The notice would be good, but I REALLY like fronting the money for the whole tag. Two things. One, its an interest free loan to the DWR which will help to offset the loss they take. Two it does make the shotgun approach less likely. Mama ain't gonna give me $1000 in Jan, just after xmas to loan out for 5 months.

Second, more specialized seasons. How about that nov. muzz hunt like the old days but with primitive equiment. Side hammers, iron sights, no sabots. How about high country hunts, or even some elk/deer combos. By only putting in for a deer, you decide class 1 or 2, you make people make decisions, might help with point creep, might help with otc tags.

Lastly, NO MORE GUARANTEED TAGS. You wanna hunt CWMU, you put in like everyone else, you simply buy access to the CWMU. No more expo tags. YES I KNOW ALL THE GOOD DENNY AUSTAD DOES IN THE STATE, give me a break. No more conservation tags. Want to auction something at a banquet, how about points. $fw could auction points, 5k a point in groups of 5. Old DENNY could buy 5 points for $25k, without a guarantee of anything, lets see how concerned he really is for conservation without him getting anything in return.(PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT BY USING DENNY I MEAN DENNY AND ALL THE OTHER "CONCERNED" SPORTSMEN THAT "SUPPORT" UTAHS WILDLIFE, IN EXCHANGE FOR GUARANTEED TAGS EVERY YEAR WITH NO WAITING PERIODS OR DRAWS).


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

 

[bragabit]

Something has go to be done about the landowner tag program. It doesn't do any good to limit the tags in the draw if the DWR is going to give a landowner tag to everyone who didn't draw. There was even a company here in Southern Utah that got 25 tags and raffled them off to their employees. Yes they own a lot of land, but there is not a deer on their property throughout the entire year. It is becoming a real problem as tags are getting harder to get.

 

[hornkiller]

With SFW running the show Nothing is going to change!

They need all the expo/banquet tags they can get there grubby hands on for all there cronies.

 

[gundog2]

I would agree with idea of combining all deer hunts into one draw pool. In fact, I think all elk hunts should be combined into one draw system.

 

[Matapatos]

I had an idea one day... We all see big bucks and know of big bucks on general units every year after all the hunts... What if we had one or two tags for each general unit that would fall under the limited entry category and use up points? The hunt would go from Sep 1 to Nov 30, for example, and be any weapon. The details can be worked out, thats just an example.
I'm no biologist and have no idea if one or two deer would have a noticeable impact on the general deer herd, but we're talkin' getting 30-60 more guys through the draw system each year without much of an impact, IMO... Just an idea, not sure how effective it might be.

 

[31incher]

I'd take my general season deer unit with a bow in hand during the rut then almost any limited entry deer in utah ( except for henrys). I would much rather build deer points for a rut hunt then these jokes of a limited entry units. I wish there wasnt a waiting period on elk lol but understand why its there.

 

[bragabit]

I would like to see 5-10 tags issued on every general season unit for around November 10th and call them Premium Limited Entry hunts. That would about double the opportunity for Limited Entry hunts and would move people through the point system. There are many ways they could structure the hunts. Maybe give 10 bow tags one year, then 8 muzzleloader tags the next, then 5 rifle tags the next year. Some bigger units with more deer maybe able to handle more, some maybe less.

 

[Zeke]

I don't know if it would ever fly with the F&G but it's a pretty cool idea to think about. A few "full rut with a bow" tags in general units would be great.
It would certainly increase the premium tags but it might just increase the interest and even more guys would apply for these premium tags.
Interesting ideas for sure.
Zeke

 

[coyoteslayer]

If you go to one deer draw, then you will help point creep on deer and make it much worse for elk. Unless, you say if you put in for deer, then you can't put in for elk. The problem with that is you are hurting the hunters that like to hunt the most. I would love to kill a big bull someday, but I would like to at least hunt every few years for a deer or an elk, as most hard core hunters would. The people that would be drawing the henries for deer and pahvant/Sanjuan for elk would be those hunters who could really care less about hunting much. They could wait the 10 years to hunt once. You would be giving the best hunts in the state to people who for the most part would care less about hunting. Why hurt the guys that like to hunt the most? The only way to help point creep now, is to increase the herd. It all comes down to resources compared to people who want to hunt. You all have some great ideas about creating more hunting opportunities, like nov. bow hunts/ management hunts, but the deer herds need to increase before we can implement them. I don't know how these animals make it now. Some units are getting hunted from Aug 1st cow elk hunts until Dec. 31st. Not 3 days break for the animals combined. I really think we need to cut tags in most areas, the hunting experience on general deer hunts, is not good.

 

[cannonball]

coyoteslayer, I don't agree with you at all. It certainly might have somewhat of a influence on the elk draw unless Big Bull elk was included in the mix, but its the only fair way for this increasing point creep is to let hunter's choose their poison. I really think your chances of drawing for units like the Pauns, bookcliffs, etc could go way, way up. If you want to hunt nearly every year, put in for those units and then put in for a second choice (second, third, etc. choices would not deplete your bonus points if drawn).

 

[theox]

I havent read through all of these posts, but i dont like the one point system. But i do have a better solution. Make more limited entry hunts(not units).

This is my thoughts: give 1-2 tags in each general unit in late november. Any weapon, but if you apply for these this is the same as applying for books, henrys, pauns. Except there would be 30 more units which would take alot out of the henry, pauns pool. Yes yes I know it would kill some dandy bucks on every unit cause they are rutting, but we are talking 1 tag for each unit. Residents only.

Ive gotta say id pull outta the paunsy draw and apply for the rut hunt in my area. It will be high quality hunt, and would take lots of creep outta the LE units.

 

[Matapatos]

I hadn't thought about the revenue of the increased amount of Premium Limited Entry hunts that a few "Rut" tags on each general unit would generate for the State... This may be something we can get through with more money being on the table... As long as the details can be worked out properly so as to not hurt the herd. Not to mention how many people would pull out of applying for the Henry's and the Paunsy!

 

[El_Matador]

Just throwing this out there...

Combine ALL points into one pool (LE for all species, OIL, PP)

Points are issued before the drawing, not after, and each applicant can buy up to 4 of them at $10 each. These points are added to your point total and can be used in the drawing as follows:

Risk as many points as you'd like for each drawing. One point is required to enter a drawing, except "LE" areas require 10 points.

One application for deer, one for elk, one for OIL.

If you draw your first choice, all points that were risked on that application are used up. If you draw a 2nd choice only 1 point is used up.

Hunts that are currently "general season" - 100% of tags go to high point holders. Hunts that are currently LE, 80% of tags go to high point holders.


A system like this would really allow each hunter to focus his points on his own kind of hunt. Guys that are set on a Henry's tag could channel all 4 points each year and quickly outpace the folks that are putting in for Sheep, general deer, and elk. Using all 4 points toward a general deer tag would almost guarantee you that hunt each year. Or you could spread out your points and build chances for several species at a time. Just trying to think outside the box here...I'm interested to hear some thoughts on this.

 

[BillyBoB]

Point creep....
I've read this entire thread (must be bored) and a question came to mind....Do you think the DWR cares about it? Whether it takes you 5 years to draw? Or ten? Maybe even 20+ years? As long as your sending them money every year, you're also guaranteeing a future of stability of cash flow to the DWR each and every year.

Not to sound negative but I'm just trying to see it from everyone's point of view. Even the DWRs.

I like the ideas from posts 39-42.
I think that there have been some good and bad ideas posted.

But like Zeke posted, with changes come help for some and hurt for others. I guess it depends on your application strategy.



Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."

 

[nripepi]

I think this solution might be too simple! I think it will work pretty well depending on if you go to most points, like Colorado, gets the tag or if you stay with the 50/50 split. Any thoughts on that? If you stay 50/50 it will take longer to move through the points system, but probably should work pretty well.

I think those having more General Points than LE is probably pretty rare, but I am actually in that boat as a NR because I thought perhaps the General Points would someday we worth something.

 

[cannonball]

Sounds reasonable. Anything to help!! With the inclusion of the youngsters. Our family will have three extra tags in the limited entry draw system which normally would not be there. As quoted by the following paragraph which reads:
"Also, young hunters who don't have their own hunting permit might be allowed to use their parent's or grandparent's permit to take a big game animal in 2014." The actuality for our family is; My daughter enjoys being out on the hunt, but does not want to shoot a deer and has a son 16 years old who would die for a permit and my wife who said no more permits would be happy to see one of our other grandson's shoot a deer.
How many other families will help the POINT CREEP go straight up, sorry but that's the way it is.

THE LIMITED ENTRY DRAW CRITERIA needs to be changed to increase the odds of drawing!!

 

[mntman]

A person can easily go through the posts and determine where someone is "sitting" in Utah's draw process. as in how many points they have, are they a DH, a LL holder, both, etc... You do it by how they are proposing a change or lack of change cause their "answer" benefits their situation...

Point creep can be stopped, but no one wants to do it cause they don't want to lose "their" points...

Utah needs to combine ALL of their deer tags into one draw, and if you purchase a buck tag (in any way, form, process) you lose your points. Point creep would come to a SCREECHING halt instantly.
Same for elk, combine all the units into one system. If you acquire a bull tag you lose ALL elk points.
Within a few years, it would be rare to hear of anyone that had built up 10 points or more, guranteed.

I have been hoping CO would do this with their draw system. Yes I play the game in CO buy applying for a premium unit and then hunting with 2nd, 3rd, 4th and OTC tags every year. I have 10 points for CO elk but would love to see CO go to my recomendation of points...


The only group of people that would still likely have point creep would be NR's cause the majority dont hunt out of state often. Most hunt only when they draw a premium tag...
However it would be slowed down for NR's too.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?

 

[elkfromabove]

We may not be able to stop point creep without eliminating the point system, but the following ideas would slow it down some:

1) Stop selling LE and OIL points and add $2 to all hunt application fees to more than make up the difference. For every 4.5 residents who draw an LE or OIL permit, there's another in the wings with purchased points just waiting to replace them. (For the 5 top levels it's 1 to 3.5) And with non-residents it's 1 to 1.3. There are too many people who just buy points for themselves and others (who may not even hunt) until they have enough to either reach maximum where they can just slip in from the side or put themselves and others into a group application in order to increase the odds. If you just want to add points, you'll have to apply for the hunt and hope you don't get a tag (or turn it in, see below).

2) Limit the tag turn-ins to 2 per species per person and/or don't reward a point for doing it.

3) Penalize for inactivity. After 5 total years of not applying for a hunt, you begin to LOSE points, 1 (or 2) per year. Missions, schooling, touring, etc. can be covered in that amount of time. (Health issues, military and civic service could be exceptions.)

4) Remove OIL tags from the Youth Mentoring Program. They are not necessary to lock a youngster into a lifestyle that includes hunting, and will likely be counterproductive for most kids. (Most OIL hunts are tough on experienced adults, let alone 12 to 17 year olds.) But if we still insist on grooming a generation of trophy hunters, then impose waiting periods and OIL rules on BOTH hunters. They share the benefits of using one permit, let them share the liabilities.

5) Round UP on the 50% LE/OIL max point hunts. That will move more from the top without adding any hunt numbers.

6) Add or increase low impact hunts. Some of you have suggested some good ones.

I've seen lots of other suggestions on this thread that would also work, but I think it's just a matter of time before we'll have to consider major changes.

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

I like that idea of rounding up on the 50/50 split. Don't seem like much, but it would help. Points squared, even 75/25 or 60/40 split would be pretty harmless and it would help also.