Utah Point Creep 2.0

[theox]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-13 AT 09:55PM (MST)[p]So the original point creep post was getting long so I wanted to share my idea about the point creep.

This is my thoughts: create more LE hunts by giving 1-(2 in high deer pop units... possibly) tags in each general unit in late november(rut). Id say even make it a 3-4 day hunt( that would lower odds of killing the biggest buck on each unit, but still give plenty of opportunity on some dandies for the tag holder. A three day hunt would make passing on 180 class bucks hard for most guys, so i think the real big boys would still have a chance to survive. This would be Any weapon hunt, but if you apply for these this is the same as applying for books, henrys, pauns, etc. Except, there would be 30 more units which would take alot out of the henry, pauns pool. Yes yes I know it would kill some dandy bucks on every unit cause they are rutting, but we are talking 1 tag for each unit. Residents only.( sorry non res's i dont think multiple rut tags in each unit would be good so to keep it simple 1 tag for res only) Also a lot of the deer end up on private property which would also help to keep some big ones safe

Ive gotta say id pull outta the paunsy draw and apply for the rut hunt in my area. It will be high quality hunt, and would take lots of creep outta the LE units.

I know alot are gonna hate this idea simply because they are worried about the top end bucks being killed. However,I think one off each unit a year will leave plenty big ones left over, plus it could be YOU Hunting that tag! The biggest problem is there would be no bonus tag for high point holders but i guarantee a ton of guys would leave the regular LE unit draws for a chance like this! I know I would!

So lets hear some pros and cons! I cant think of very many cons to this. Other than 1 top end buck being killed off each unit, which really isnt that huge of a deal IMO. ! tag would not add really any pressure to the deer( considering the amount of guys that sit and watch deer anyway) plus its only 3 day hunt so its not really much pressure to speak of.

 

[31incher]

Only 30 tags a year isnt really gonna help move people threw the system. I think you would have to to do more tags but kill less deer. So I think a archery hunt in the rut would be a little better. That way you can give more tags ( moving people threw the system) while not cleaning up the whole herd with a rifle hunt.

Imo I dont know that any hunt in the rut is a great idea for bringing back a herd that is in trouble already. It sure would be fun chasing those bucks in the rut thou! That would be my only concern is chasing the deer when they are trying to breed and what impact that would have a on fawn crop the following year.

just my 2 cents

 

[gundog2]

Appealing idea, but I think the UT deer hunt needs a bigger more solid fix than this.

 

[theox]

Thanks for the input guys. 31 incher: I was more thinking about spreading the draw pressure out rather than actually moving people throught the system faster. If there are 30 additional tags it could potentially pull a large chunk of people from the henry pauns draw to a diff draw. So it would increase the odds on the regular LE units slightly. Not sure how much but it would definently move some pressure around.

I dont think it would hurt the deer herd at all. We are talking one buck, not sure how that hurts much.

say 4000 people apply for henry and 1500 decide to put in for the rut tags from that entire group that would still leave a large problem but it would surely ct it back a bit

 

[31incher]

I see where you are coming from now and would agree with you for the most part. Im just not sure how many people would think just one tag per unit would be appealing. You definetly dont want to many tags because it would definetly effect preasure during very important breeding season. Maybe there is a happy medium? I dont know and it would take someone smart than me to figure it out.

it would be very cool to hunt the rut in some general season units with any weapon. I would have happily spent my 9 deer point on my unit during the rut rather than the book cliffs. Dont get me wrong. There is plenty of deer out at the books. But I never seen a buck bigger than any of the bucks see year after year in my general season unit.

 

[31incher]

Plus I think there would have to be at least 2 tags per unit so so that there is actually a bonus tag for high point holders or people definetly wont change over to the rut hunts.

 

[elkun]

good idea, in the basin one or two tags per unit would not hurt the deer, and sure would be fun to hunt the rut again,,,,

 

[hogg_65]

I think its a great idea. Make it a 3 day hunt start it on Tuesday end it on Thursday. I think the units could afford at least 10 permits each to hunt. That amount of tags if all hunters were to be successful, wouldnt hurt the herds at all. Make it an any weapon hunt so all hunters are included. Charge us at least 100$. This would be a fun hunt. But this hunt needs to start on a tue and only be 3 days. Any more days, or a weekend start would be a very bad decision. IMO.

 

[theox]

Yeah id be oke with a few tags but i think 10 is too many.31incher i agree with you on 1 tag not being quite enough the more i think about it. Maybe 2-5 would be ok. At least 2 so there is a bonus tag. I also was thinkinh the 3 day hunt would be from fri-sun or thurs to sat. I think one weekend day would be good. But a mid week hunt i would not be opposed too. I think the tag price should be the same as a regular LE deer hunt. Anyway keep the thoughts coming. Maybe we can suggest this at the RACs. Anyone willing to suggest it? Im not sure i can get to a rac this year. Super busy at work and hard to get away until after 8 or 9 pm

 

[cannonball]

I like the idea of a a few select tags for a late hunt on the units, but I believe it should not be under the topic of point creep because I really don't believe it would help the decrease the creep much. What I'm going by is the number of hunters around this area who do not put in for any limited hunting areas, but certainly would if there were a few permits to hunt the rut. Lets face it, it is expense to go the Henries or Pauns for scouting and hunting, but if it is in your backyard. "GREAT!! I've never put in for a limited hunt before, but I'm putting in for that hunt - IT'S IN THE RUT!!"

 

[cannonball]

In fact let's take it one step further. Every flintlock hunter who is anyone puts in for the limited entry hunts. Let's make it flintlock and yes even bow "only" hunts for those late rut seasons. You would definitely see some creep slowdown. Those are the categories who put in for the limited entry now, not your Tom, #####, or Harry, "Joe" who hunts close to home or in the place their family has been hunting for ever.

 

[Zeke]

Theox,
It's kind of a cool idea!
I really don't think it will impact points creep at all unless you have bonus tag however. I don't know too many guys who will pull out of a bonus pool to apply for a random tag. But if you have a bonus tag or two... well that's quits an appealing application now!
I think I like it and the deer wouldn't be impacted to a noticeable degree.
Oh, scrap the 3 day hunt too. Nobody likes that! (well, at least I don't).
Yep, I think it might just work for creep. Now to work on the herds........
Zeke

 

[Packout]

If you want to help with point creep then simply institute only one point system. No more DH, Gen, LTD, etc....

If you want to kill bigger bucks easier then ideas like this one will do that. This idea won't help with point creep, but it surely will kill the best bucks in a unit, even after they out-smarted hunters for 6 weeks of pressure. Lets also have 10 tags per unit which open Aug 10th each year and go for 3 days. That should increase the kill rate on trophy quality bucks.

We don't control the herds. Mother Nature takes care of that for us. One bad winter and we lose them and a few great weather years like we have had theses past 3 will grow them.

 

[Zeke]

Packout,

You may very well be correct but who's to say that point creep is a bad thing? Let's be clear, the demand will always outstrip the supply and there will be few (zero) ways around it.

If you waived your "wand" and we had one points system for deer, can you see how it would affect the elk applications? Are you too short-sighted to realize that if you don't make elk off limits to deer applicants that the odds for elk would skyrocket.

Talk about point creep!

There's a cause and effect with everything we do and "some" guys just can't seem to grasp it.

Zeke

 

[theox]

I hate the idea of one point system! And i do think this would take alot out of the point creep. Not enough to make drawing easy which is not the intention. If it was easy then it wouldnt be special i just thought it would make things more spread out and give more people an opportunity to hunt special hunts. I dont think it would get a ton more people putting in for tags, and if it does well thats more money for wildlife anyway. Thing is its not like people are gonna ditch the elk pool for it so i really dont think it would increase that much.

 

[theox]

good points zeke

 

[bragabit]

I also hate the idea of a 1 point system for deer. I would be willing to bet most guys advocating for this are the same ones who wanted 30 smaller units so the DWR could manage the units better and cut tags. Well now they can't draw a tag every year. And they probably apply for elk in the LE draws. They want to change the rules. You would be penalizing the guys that have been applying for 18 years for the Henries, now he can't hunt the general hunt, but the guy applying for elk for the last 18 years can. It is hard the change the rule in the middle of the game. If you are going to go to one point system for deer lets do it for elk also. Make the Any Bull/Spike hunts a draw. You have to apply for either a LE Big Bull tag or a any bull/spike tag. Same thing as a 1 points system for deer.

 

[pookiebar]

I like your idea. I think that each area could afford 5 tags like this. That would open up the opportunity to 3 tags each unit for regular tags, and there would still be 2 tags for the high point holders.

 

[Bwht4x4]

I wish Utah and other states would work together in a western states pact that allows a hunter to only draw one OIL tag a year. This would help a little with getting more people drawn for the OIL tags.

Also I wish within a state a hunter can only draw one big game tag per year whether it be deer, elk or pronghorn. When a guy draws an elk, pronghorn, and deer tag all in one year it reduces the tags that can go around. I pray for one decent tag a year and I'm happy to have it. This is a limited resource with a high demand.

Some may say that this comment is coming from someone with no or low points. Nope I have 17 pts for LE deer in Utah and lots of points everywhere else.

 

[Zeke]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-13 AT 11:55AM (MST)[p]>I wish Utah and other states
>would work together in a
>western states pact that allows
>a hunter to only draw
>one OIL tag a year.
> This would help a
>little with getting more people
>drawn for the OIL tags.
>
>
>Also I wish within a state
>a hunter can only draw
>one big game tag per
>year whether it be deer,
>elk or pronghorn. When
>a guy draws an elk,
>pronghorn, and deer tag all
>in one year it reduces
>the tags that can go
>around. I pray for
>one decent tag a year
>and I'm happy to have
>it. This is a
>limited resource with a high
>demand.
>
>Some may say that this comment
>is coming from someone with
>no or low points.
>Nope I have 17 pts
>for LE deer in Utah
>and lots of points everywhere
>else.

I agree with the spirit of your post with a couple exceptions:
Drawing 2 OIL tags in a year is so rare that any change would have almost zero impact.

And, I also pray for 1 good tag per year but you'll have to define what a good tag is. If you're talking about a LE tag...well.. it took me 22 years to draw my first one in Utah. Since points and after 2000 I've drawn 1 LE elk and 2 OIL tags. Pretty good for 14 years.

I don't have all the answers but the current system has worked for me and those who stay the course.

Interesting stuff to talk about!

Zeke

I've got to work on my spelling skills!

 

[theox]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-13 AT 10:45PM (MST)[p]u cant draw more than one tag already. you can get either one general tag and a le tag or a generaldeer tag and OIL tag. the way the draw works is OIl is first and if you draw you are taken outta the LE draw, but can still draw gen deer. if you dont draw OIL then you get chance at Le if you draw LE you can still get a Gen deer tag unless you drew an Le deer tag. As residents we can put in for 1 OIL 1 LE and a general. Non res can put in for everything but can only draw 1 LE or OIL . Im thinking you should research things a bit mopre!

 

[Zeke]

theox,
You're 100% correct.

But, I think he was talking about a Western States pact and was counting all States OIL tags and saying a guy should only draw 1 "super tag" in any and all States in any one year.
Well, I could let him answer for himself but I think that's what he was trying to say.

Zeke

 

[Bwht4x4]

Thanks Zeke. Yes, I am referring to the western states and not just Utah.

Ox, as for "Im thinking you should research things a bit mopre!" I'm good. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[El_Matador]

>If you waived your "wand" and
>we had one points system
>for deer, can you see
>how it would affect the
>elk applications? Are you too
>short-sighted to realize that if
>you don't make elk off
>limits to deer applicants that
>the odds for elk would
>skyrocket.
>
>Talk about point creep!

This is a huge contradiction, Zeke. You're saying that it's fine and dandy to double dip when it comes to deer tags (general + LE), but doing the same for deer and elk would lead to more point creep? If double dipping leads to point creep then it will do the same thing regardless of which species you're talking about. Packout's idea is solid and here's why: People apply for many tags simply because they can. Make them choose which tag they really want and you'll eliminate much of the competition for the tags YOU really want.

If you want to hunt the best buck units you can forego your general season buck permit and apply for the top end deer units. This will make for better hunting on the general units because you are not there to crowd others and shoot their deer.

If you want to hunt general units go ahead and apply for a lower end deer unit. You will then be out of the way for all the guys that are applying for top end units. Your hunt is better because they are gone, their hunt is easier to draw because you are gone.

To address the elk draw becoming too crowded we could simply make a rule that prohibits someone from applying for more than one top end tag. Applicants for premium deer units would not be able to apply for premium elk units during the same year.