Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Oneye

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Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3287281-155/utah-commission-votes-to-sue-feds

If you vote just because there is an R next to the name, or haven't informed yourself, and put people like Rob Bishop, Mike Lee, Mike Noel, Ken Ivory, etc. into power then you need to start paying attention.

Utah just decided spending $14 million more of your tax dollars to steal our public lands is worth a try. Amazing how they're short on cash for education and other issues but they can pull $14 million out on a legal case they have no chance of winning just to line their pockets with more welfare money. These guys consider themselves conservative but they've racked up about $40 million worth of tax dollars on sage grouse, wolf, and public land issues they accomplished and will accomplish nothing on.

Send your emails, make some phone calls, and most importantly stop voting for individuals with this ideology. We are screwing ourselves over big time.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

So you are saying that the federal government can make better decisions on how to manage Utahs land then Utahans itself, and that we should just let the federal government control the land. Utah already got screwed when Clinton created the Escalante National Monument years ago. What land is utah trying to retain and were is the info that says Utah is trying to sell it?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

You obviously are uneducated on the subject. Do into this issue and you will find out their end goal is to sale these lands and develop them. I don't believe the Feds do a rest job but I think with the strained budgets and failed policies enacted by congress they do the best they can until congress fixes the problems. As for the state managing them... Look at what they do with their currently managed lands, their budgets, and how they manage their money. Spending nearly $20 million building up to a lawsuit they have no chance of winning doesn't show me they are any better at managing their money than the Feds they constantly complain about. This "well managed" state has wasted more tax dollars than most any other and yet somehow people still support the people who waste it.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

>So you are saying that the
>federal government can make better
>decisions on how to manage
>Utahs land then Utahans itself,
>and that we should just
>let the federal government control
>the land. Utah already got
>screwed when Clinton created the
>Escalante National Monument years ago.
>What land is utah trying
>to retain and were is
>the info that says Utah
>is trying to sell it?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, so hopefully it doesn't come across that way, but Oneye is correct that you could use a little more information on this subject and the danger it is for hunting and public land.

I highly recommend spending a few hours listening to Randy Newberg's podcasts on this subject. He will give you a ton of information that will scare you to death. There is a good reason hunting groups like Backcountry Hunters & Anglers and Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation have publicly come out against the land grab.

If there is one danger to our hunting heritage, it is not gun control or wolves... its this public land grab. Our grandchildren being able to hunt elk on public land like we do today literally depends on it.

Grizzly
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

>So you are saying that the
>federal government can make better
>decisions on how to manage
>Utahs land then Utahans itself,
>and that we should just
>let the federal government control
>the land. Utah already got
>screwed when Clinton created the
>Escalante National Monument years ago.
>What land is utah trying
>to retain and were is
>the info that says Utah
>is trying to sell it?
>

Also as for the Escalante monument. It had absolutely no negative effect on the economy of the area. The coal in that monument has been proven to be dirty coal, so deep and hard to get to it is not even financially viable to go after it and make any sort of profit. This has been studied and the coal isn't worth anything. So while those around the monument are unwilling to change I'm a changing global economy that doesn't want their worthless coal, they are going to sit there and go belly up because those in charge aren't creative enough to move forward with the world.

What did the monument do that was so detrimental to the area? Grazing is still allowed. Timber harvest in the area is so insignificant in our global economy they couldn't keep up. Instead of blaming the Feds because the world has moved on from ting markets like Panguich the elected officials in the area should be doing their job and finding new economic resources for the area. They aren't and that is why they are struggling economically. The Feds nor the monument has anything to do with their struggles. We don't live I the same world or economy we did decades ago, and their still stuck in the past. If they can't escape the past then that's where they'll be left and to no fault of anyone but their own.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

You have to love a hypocrite that will degrade the individuals most effected by something as being "stuck in the past" so he can win his argument for keeping the past in control for his own self-serving purposes.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

There is nothing I said that is not true. You don't have to like the reality of the world we live in, but you do have to live with it and adapt to it. The timber in the area is insignificant to a global market where they have to compete with actual industries in other states and parts of the world that have better quantity and quality of materials. The coal in the area, which is the main complaint, under this monument has been proven to be dirty, deep, and very low quality coal that would yield no economic benefit and is so expensive to extract is not worth going after anyway. Grazing is allowed still. Hunting access is allowed still. Nothing was lost due to the inception of this monument and it gets tiring listening to those unwilling to admit it is them and not those they point their fingers at for their problems. Tristate your nothing more than an agitator who gives opinion where it is not relevant. Do I express my disdain for some of the stupidity I see in the world in the nicest and politically correct way I could? No, but I can drag it out or just call it what it is. Backward, stupidity that keeps you stuck in the mud with your tires spinning.

I won't be replying to another post of yours because I don't want to take this post too far off its original intention. Thanks for your opinion, goodbye.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

You are really so ignorant you can't realize you are talking in circles. You talk about worthless land but then tell everyone the states are going to sell it. People don't buy worthless land. Maybe it's time you quit being stuck in the mud and step aside so people can make money in this world economy you like to talk about but know nothing about.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Oneye you need to get your facts in order about the cold on the on the Escalante monument!! I agree that this land grab could be bad, but it could be good Also!

The Utah Coal Lockup: A trillion dollar Lippo payoff?

By: Sarah Foster

When the President signed the Executive Order designating 1.7 million acres of land in southwest Utah as the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, his action placed the area off limits to mineral extraction and development.

The New York Times reported that the monument encloses the largest coal field in the nation, the Kaiparowitz Plateau, which contains at least 7 billion tons of coal worth over $1 TRILLION.

Kentucky-based company Andalux Resources, which holds leases on 3,400 acres in the area, was planning to open a huge operation (underground, not strip mining) that would have generated 1,000 jobs, $1 million in annual revenue for Kane County, and at least $10 million a year in state and federal taxes, according to the New York Times. Folks living in the area wore black arm bands the day o the signing - but Clinton didn't see them. He chose to make his announcement in a neighboring state. WHY?

Why did he do it? Why lock up $1 trillion worth of coal?

An obvious explanation is he was hoping to secure the environmentalist vote. Though that was no doubt part of his reasoning, he had surely achieved such an objective earlier this summer when he declared the huge area outside Yellowstone National Park a World Heritage Area. Let'' look further.

In the weeks prior to the past election, revelations surfaced almost daily regarding donations from foreign sources to the Democratic Party and Clinton's past campaigns. At the center of the controversy was another set of people to whom Clinton owes a few favors: the Lippo Group, a powerful $5 billion Indonesian conglomerate, founded and owned by the Riady family who, it turned out, had raised and funneled millions of dollars into campaign coffers.

Democrats attempted to downplay the allegations of impropriety. Even if the Clinton campaign and the Party did receive illegal contribution- which is denied -what, they demanded, had Clinton done for Lippo Group, the Riadys, or Indonesia that really affects this country adversely? Good question. The Payoff

Clinton's announcement at the Grand Canyon was wrapped in political correctness. "Mining jobs are good jobs, and mining is important to our national security - but we can't have mines everywhere, and we shouldn't have mines that threaten national treasures," he told his sycophantic audience.

But coal is not only important for our nation's security. More importantly, at the present time it is the most cost-effective fuel for the electric plants that supply our homes and industries with light, heat and power.

Moreover, the coal at Kaiporowitz Plateau is a kind of coal that is not found "everywhere." It is very low sulfur, low ash - hence, low polluting - coal, the kind in high demand for power plants, such as one being designed for Ensenada, Mexico. That megawatt giant, presently on the drawing boards, will supply electricity across northern Baja, an area plagued by brownouts.

Had it not been taken off the world market, the logical source of coal for the Baja plant would be the Kaiparowitz Plateau. Once mined it could be transported by rail to the ports of Long Beach or Los Angeles, then by barge to Ensenada. Thanks to Clinton, there will be no exporting of Kaiparowitz coal, which means the facility's procurement people will have to look elsewhere for clean non-polluting fuel.

Only two other sources

Besides the Kaiparowitz Plateau, there are only two other known locations in the world where comparable coal is found in sufficient quantities to make mining it worthwhile. Colombia in South America is one, but it'll be years before the necessary mining and shipping infrastructure is built.

The other? You got it. Indonesia.

That's right - the coal fields of South Kalimantan (Borneo), Indonesia. Big plans are online for its development. Indonesia has been a source of coal for over a century, but the coal varies sharply in terms of quality. Recently, however, a coal that is very low in sulfur has been discovered. A number of coal companies are already there, and it's a good bet Lippo Group money is involved. A major company is Adaro Indonesia, of which 20 percent is owned by the Spanish government, 50 percent by New Hope Corp., an Australian firm.

Envirocoal

According to the 1994 report Mineral Industry of Indonesia, by the bureau of Mines, U.S. Dept. of Interior, Adaro aims to produce 15 million tones by the year 2000 of what they call Envirocoal - a reference to its quality. Adaro has for several years anticipated the U.S. as a major market, and has one committed purchaser already: Tampa Electric Co., which signed a long-term contract to purchase 400,000 tones a year from the Indonesian firm.

To handle the shipping of the increased production, new shipping terminals are being constructed. One huge one is on a neighboring island at a cost of $1 billion. The P.T. Indonesia bulk Terminal, as the megaport is called, is owned 50 percent by New How, and 50 percent by "Indonesian interests" (the Lippo Group perhaps), according to the Interior Dept. report.

Massive coal deposits, massive shipping facilities - that spells massive investment, massive contracts. This isn't some small-0is-beautiful eco-operation. We're talking real money here, and it's hard to imagine that the "Lippopotamus" is not in on the action. But even if Lippo's not directly involved, the Indonesian government, with which Lippo has a cozy relationship, certainly does. So too will the various foreign investors and mining companies to whom the Indonesian government has extended an open invitation.

Winners and Losers

In any game there are winners and losers, and there are Americans in the first category - the investors who put their money in overseas coal mining, producers of natural gas, which the administration supports wholeheartedly.

Plus, there's a deal between a Little Rock firm and Lippo. According to the ENERGY ECONOMIST for Sept., 1994, Entergy Group of Little Rock, in partnership with the Lippo Group of Hong Kong, signed a memorandum of understanding with the North China Power Corporation for the cooperative management and expansion of the $1 billion 1,200 megawatt coal-fired Daton 2 power plan in Shanxi Province. Isn't that interesting And where do you think the coal will come from?

The Democrats' question: What has Clinton done for Indonesia that harms the United States? The answer is - with a stroke of his pen he wiped out the only significant competition to Indonesian coal interests in the world market before it even got started, a move that at the same time relegates this country to importer status. His edict will force us into eventual dependency on foreign producers of coal as we are presently dependent on overseas sources for oil - an unconscionable situation considering that we have abundant deposits of both commodities.

The President has given our children a legacy of continued energy dependence, marked by contrived shortages and crises, the full impact of which will be sharply felt in the years to come.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Does this sound like dirty coal?

Moreover, the coal at Kaiporowitz Plateau is a kind of coal that is not found "everywhere." It is very low sulfur, low ash - hence, low polluting - coal, the kind in high demand for power plants, such as one being designed for Ensenada, Mexico. That megawatt giant, presently on the drawing boards, will supply electricity across northern Baja, an area plagued by brownouts
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

One effect on the local economy - They are probably going to shut down Escalate Hi-school because the families who tried to stay on after the monument took their jobs (mining, timber) have moved. Less than fifty students now as compared to a few hundred before monument creation. All will be bused elsewhere. This article was in St George News awhile back.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

You guys are way off topic here. Go read the 800 page state-sponsored study, coal is not even considered as a major instigator of this land grab. The coal industry is dying and regardless of where the coal comes from, it is still subject to EPA regulations which prevent it's beneficial use. You could have mountains of perfectly clean coal and the EPA is still trying to price you out of business.

The fact of the matter is that the dollars don't make sense. This land grab, by the state's own study, requires oil at $120/bbl (it's currently under $40/bbl). Or oil at $65/bbl if the Feds refuse to take their half of the 12.5% royalty (of course they'll take their half, but even best case scenario requires oil 50% higher than today's price). It also requires oil production to increase in Utah by 15% annually (US oil rigs fell from 1460 to 555 in the last year alone due to low oil prices making it unprofitable). It also requires the Feds to continue to pay for all wildfire costs ($700 million last year alone).

None of this will ever happen, and half of it has already proven itself false. Sorry, but I need to call out anybody that says this could be good. It can't. And I just provided hard facts to prove it.

Grizzly
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Blame, point fingers.

I say if people want a huge growing economy and population then maybe they should move to the Wasatch front?
If you want small town life and all the things that go with that, then live there and enjoy.

I'm sorry but national public land is owned by all of us, if you want purely private land , I say go to Texas or many southern and Easter states, they provide that.
You cannot have a huge thriving economy and jobs without a loss of something, there are few if any win - wins these days.

Good coal, bad dirty coal, you can believe anything you want to read, that's the way of the modern media.
I believe there is plenty of coal in the powder river basin , with the infrastructure in place and already there, I also believe a transition to natural gas would be better for the country and safer for the climate, I also believe we should keep ours nations public land public, and preserve as much as possible in a somewhat pristine state, so the future can share a hope and part of what I have enjoyed.

But these are my opinions and while I can find articles to bolster my beliefs, it's still an opinion
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

This land grab won't change the Antiquities Act, the tool used to make Grand-Staircase. Just imagine what Obama could do during the rest of his term if he wants, and Hillary Clinton thereafter. The land grab doesn't solve any of it. If you don't like that law, change it. Selling all the land solves nothing... then nobody can use it.

This land grab won't raise money for education (see post above and many scholarly articles on the subject. We'd be lucky to break even in the best case scenario but will be stuck with the bill if it ever goes south. Which it will.)

This land grab won't prevent environmentalists from suing, but now Utah residents have to pay the bills, not the Feds.

This land grab won't stop the dreaded "federal oversight". The Feds can still use Army Corp of Engineers, Environmental Protection Agency, or Endangered Species Act to prevent unwanted activity on state or private land. (If this land grab doesn't get the Feds out of the way, and only costs money and increases liability, why do it?)

It's a lose/lose bill for everybody except the very rich who will get to buy the land once it's for sale. Why else do you think the Koch brothers are the single largest donors? To help some guy that wants to mine coal from Escalante? You've got to be kidding, right?

Grizzly
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Alright slick you brought the Koch Brothers into it so what do they want it for. And you better have a good answer and not just the junk they keep packing between your ears on your favorite show "The View".

I expect an answer. Why do the Koch Brothers want land that by your definition is worthless?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

yup I agree. We let government get to big and us as a people cannot make changes. I think this topic needed to come to mine and others attention. I think my questions were answered. We are screwed here in Utah if this land grab passes, and especially as a nation if Hillary becomes president. Donald Trump for president:)
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

I don't think they want it, they have values and lots of money to promote their values, the have people who work for them in order to promote their values.

The public lands are one of the few valuable things that money cannot buy and the ultra wealthy cannot control, influence somewhat yes, but cannot control.
What's left after you have it all?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

First off I hope your Donald Trump for president isn't serious.

One last bit on the monument. Those areas including Panguich have had plenty of time to figure out how to survive with the monument rather than point the finger at it. Look at Moab a town that has embraced its national landmarks and has prospered. They've chosen to change nothing and when you do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.


But no monuments and national parks will not be returned to the states even if this land grab happened. The state will have to pay for fire and multiple other giant costs they can't afford, of course unless they go with their hands open to the Feds for funding which would just be hypocritical. Utah hasn't figured it a decent management plan for the southeast corner of the state so just wait for the last 6 months of Obamas term and I think another stroke of the pen will be coming to mark another large monument in the southeast corner of the state. Utah representatives need to end this constant battle with the Feds and start working on solutions with them.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Also, wouldn't some of that $14 million our state "conservatives" are going to waste on un-winnable lawsuits help them keep their school doors open? Or to help the area find new sources of revenue? To help economic development in areas around the state that are struggling? Don't kid yourself our state reps aren't more fiscally responsible with your money than the Feds, they throw it away all the time.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Oneye,

If its "unwinnable" why are you scared of it?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

>Alright slick you brought the Koch
>Brothers into it so what
>do they want it for.
> And you better have
>a good answer and not
>just the junk they keep
>packing between your ears on
>your favorite show "The View".
>
>
>I expect an answer. Why
>do the Koch Brothers want
>land that by your definition
>is worthless?

As long as you can stay on topic, I will respond to you. The second you try your typical BS, I will just ignore you. This is why I will answer your Koch brothers question and ignore your "worthless" comment that has never been uttered by me, regardless of your false assertion.

Koch Industries, initially founded in 1940 as Wood River Oil and Refining Company, is heavily involved in oil and petroleum. It is estimated they import 25% of Canadian oil sands alone. They also own Koch Pipeline Company LP, Flint Hills Resources LP (originally Koch Petroleum Group). This is just the tip of the iceberg in their oil investments, but is enough to make my point.

I am 100% confident you are in this discussion from a perspective of complete ignorance. I am 100% confident you did not read the 800 page state-sponsored study regarding the land grab (I did). This entire ploy is a fraud to increase oil production in Utah, which is why North Dakota and Texas are the poster-boys of the proponents. Oil production is the lynchpin of this fraud, not the timber and coal mentioned above.

When Utah land is opened up for massive oil drilling, the average Utahan will not stand to benefit. The people who benefit are people like the Koch brothers who can buy billions of dollars worth of land to develop for their own good. (I know your next comment is that Utah would gain from the billions of dollars in revenue when the land is sold, but I will preempt that by informing you that state statute requires 95% of all funds from the selling of land be returned to the Federal government. This is because Utah want's the property taxes, according to their own statements, which requires the land to be sold. They are not looking for the proceeds from the sale.)

This is why the 2nd largest privately-held company in the USA (after Cargill) has an interest in Utah's land grab. If it doesn't benefit them, they wouldn't have a reason to be the single largest contributor to the proponents. Passing the land grab is a business decision for the Koch Brothers, not some philanthropic donation to the benefit of the small-town residents of Escalante, Utah.

Grizzly
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

davtaiv, I appreciate your willingness to listen to opposing views. That is a rare quality and deserves praise. Thank you.

I can't decide who I like for President yet, but since this discussion is about the land grab I thought I'd share this from an article I read...

"The presidential candidates who have expressed support for privatizing or transferring control of U.S. national forests, public lands, and energy resources are: Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL); Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX); Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY); Carly Fiorina; former Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA); Ben Carson, and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee (R).

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (R) and former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (R) have not taken formal positions on the issue but have records of supporting privatization in state-owned public lands. Donald Trump, Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal (R), and Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) have either opposed these efforts or have stayed above the fray."

Grizzly
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Davtaiv, I also thank you for having an open mind, I know I'm not the best at getting my point across in an affective fashion.

One big red flag if you listen to Randy Newbergs podcasts that have to do with public land. He sat in on a hearing where the land transfer advocates had a financial expert come in and tell them what the state could do better by doing things such as raise mineral royalty rates, grazing rates,etc. which the Feds don't currently charge enough for. They praised him and patted him on the back telling him how smart he was. A week later the same board listened to Sally Jewel secretary for the department of the interior say almost word for word the same changes the financial expert said and she got heavily criticized for it. That is very questionable to me what their motives are, and land management isn't their interest.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

This has been a very good discussion. Grizzly has obviously done his homework and taken the time to actually dig into the the details. One other important note, for those of you who think the State of Utah would protect and preserve public access to the these land if they were tranferred to the state, look no further than the parallel issue of stream access. In 2010, the State of Utah passed HB 141 which effectively abolished the public?s right to touch privately-owned streambeds when using public waters in place. This public easement had existed under the law for over 100 years. Many people ask why would the State of Utah pass a law that has the effect of prejudicing the rights of the majority of the public, including sportsmen? The answer is that the state was catering to the voice of landowners, developers and other special interest groups. As a result, the public was denied the right to use this public easement for 5 years until a court recently ruled that HB 141 was unconstitutional. That ruling is now being appealed to the Utah Supreme Court. I believe that HB 141 is a clear indication of how the State of Utah views the rights of the public to use public lands. At the end of the day, those lands would be sold off and developed in an effort to generate revenue and cater to special interest groups.

-Hawkeye-
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Wait a minute. Oneye keeps calling this "unwinnable" but won't say why all the while crying about what would happen if the state wins. I understand you don't like the 14 million getting spent but that's not what you scream about. It sounds like you are more afraid this unwinnable case could be won than whether 14 million gets spent.

As for Grizzly he is talking in circles. In one post he states that it isn't going to benefit the state any because oil won't trade for enough money. But somehow the evil Koch Brothers don't need oil to be profitable for them to want it. Sorry Grizz but you can't have it both ways and your going to have to give me more logic than that.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Tristate,

That is a good question. I'd like to hear Oneyes response to that as well.

davtaiv - you give up too easy. Don't drink all the coolaid that has been spewing here. Do some more research. Check out my posts on the thread started be Griz about what he calls the land grab.

Just to set the record straight on one of oneeyes comments. The waste on fighting fires by the feds is incredible. Ive witnessed it firsthand. You are up in the night on that. That's not a valid arguement. The State already fights fires and can do it for a fraction of the cost of the feds. Also, any large fire is put out by the weather, not fire fighting crews. Other high cost programs that the State can't aford....like what? Name one that is needed that the feds don't waste oodles on.

Grand Staircase - grazing permits have been cancelled since Clinton did his dasturdly deed. Not all have been cancelled, but some have.

If you say the State wastes tons of money, then arent you saying that they have extra.

I will support people like Mike Lee and Ted Cruz so long as they keep up the fight. Public land belongs to the States, not the feds.....rightfully so by the Constitution.

Now oneeye and Griz, you got me started on this again, and I wasn't going to argue with you guys on this anymore.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Rackster, I've given you around 20 proof-positive irrefutable points as to why the land grab will be a massive failure if it were to succeed. I've used nothing but easily verifiable facts (such as price of oil, current land management expenses, oil rig counts, historical facts of Utah's actions with state-owned land, and assumptions provided by none other than the very study the state paid for and uses as justification for the land grab).

You then quote a non-binding resolution from 2011 and pretend it has more weight than the actual signed-into-law bill that demanded the land grab actually take place (which the Feds ignored, but the law still exists due to the Severability Clause).

If your best argument now is, "the states would save money", well buddy, I've got some property to sell you.

PS. Who do you think has kept the Department of Interiors budget at 1999 levels for 16 years and then complains about poor land management?

Grizzly
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

As I said I'm done entertaining Tristate. The $14 million in tax dollars is troubling to me when they've said they really have no chance of winning if they take it to court. $14 million isn't just put money you get to throw away to stick it to the Feds and grease a bunch of lawyers back pockets. It's also troubling that in the states own report they can only afford managing the lands of oil prices stay high (which they have dropped to half of what they were when the report was written).


As for waste on forest fires..... So your saying the state doesn't waste massive amounts of money too and they aren't going to waste plenty when they are up against bigger wildfires than they've ever had to handle? Why don't we look at the cost of lawsuits. Just because the state has the land does not mean the ESA, EPA, wild horse and burrow, etc. do not apply.

As for the state wasting money. I'm saying they spend money on worthless causes they gain nothing on. Tens of millions that could go towards what the "evil Feds" are causing problems on they are throwing away multiple times eacvih year.

Me, I think Ted Cruz is a decent guy, but I won't vote for him solely because of this issue. This affects my day to day life, and if you stand for the land grab you won't be getting my vote. Mike Lee is from just as dark of place as Bishop and other Utah politicians, and I wish they'd crawl back into the slimy cave they came out of. I don't consider theft of Americas public lands "fighting the good fight.

You talk like Utah is owed this land. Apparently "forever disclaim" is hard to understand for some. These public lands belong to all 320,000,000 Americans not just those in Utah, and Utah nor any other state has the right to screw the rest of the American people out of them. It is theft on one hand, and has no factual basis on the other.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Grizz I think your last paragraph is a big point in all of this. The department of interior is operating on the same spending power as it was almost 20 years ago. Congress is what can fix the problem of land management, both with funding and policies, yet every chance they get they seem to make sure screwing over land management and conservation is their #1 agenda. The same people complaining are the same people breaking the systems back.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Hawkeye, great point about the Stream Access Bill. Combine that stream history with the fact that a full 1 out of every 3 acres of private land in Utah was once state-owned, and the path Utah chooses to take is quite clear.

Oneye, your post 27 was really good. One thing to mention... the price of oil required for solvency is only cut in half if the Feds no longer take their half of the 12.5% royalty on oil and the state retains the full amount. Since the Feds will certainly not give up their half of the royalty, I think it's only fair to assume the higher number. I see no reasonable way that anybody could quote the lower amount when no inclination has been given by the Feds that they'd accept a deal without their half of the royalty. (I know you weren't saying they would, I just thought I'd clarify why the two numbers are often quoted.)

Grizzly
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Tristate,

Our public land is not worthless, it's priceless. I know that understanding that is difficult from a private ranch hunting guy in Texas or New Mexico, but it really is. Once it's gone we aren't getting it back. My kids and grand kids won't get it back. Gone.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Very well said Mr. Doe. I would hope that we can see the value in our wild lands, public lands, and wildlife before it is too late. We are facing the single biggest issue in our lifetime on the future of hunting, wildlife, and wild lands right now with this transfer scheme. We cannot afford to lose, because it's a forever loss. I'm someone who is okay with being inconvienienced to help wildlife and wild places coexhist with our current human encroachement that is constantly getting worse.

As I said, at face value, I thought this was a good idea. Then I peeled back the layers and realized what the true agenda here is. The feds aren't giving us great land managment, but the heaping pile of crap we are being offered with this transfer scheme is far worse than anything the feds have done while being our public land managers. There is work to be done for better management by the feds, but this is not the answer.

Here are a few quotes from Theodore Roosevelt to think about what we have to lose:

"I recognize the right and duty of this generation to develop and use the natural resources of our land; but I do not recognize the right to waste them, or to rob, by wasteful use, the generations that come after us."

"Of all the questions which can come before this nation, short of the actual preservation of its existence in a great war, there is none which compares in importance with the great central task of leaving this land even a better land for our descendants than it is for us."

?Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.?

I'm sorry, but if you are someone who can't find the meaning and importance of our public lands and resources, you are a very short-sighted individual. You are also very selfish to hand less down to the next generations of Americans than you had the opportunit to enjoy. These lands and opportunities are far more important to me than the political games and economic value they are being tossed around as today.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Tristate
Your right. Griz keeps talking in circles. He claims he has proven all his points to me. Yet is all he has done is proven his ignorance about federal law, States rights, the Constitution, actual uses of public land, how the federal lands are managed, what lands the States would actually sell if they did acquire federal land, the reaal reasons for discussion of the sell, the fact that it will take a federal bill passed by the US Congress and then signed by the President, etc. He keeps circling back to a State bill that has no bearing on federal land and saying its the law of the land.

Griz, I only talked about the State vs Feds management cause that's an arguement that Oneeye was trying to use. I was only pointing out how week that arguement is.

Oneeye, the "one issue voting" is exactly what you and Griz are doing. There are more issues out there than public land and yet you and Griz base your antagonism of Mike Lee and Ted Cruz solely on that subject. Yet, my support of these senators has little to do with this issue. Their fight against big government goes way beyond the public lands issue.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

I'm not so far up the right wings ass I can't see the forest for the trees. You're basing your argument off of agreeing with them because you agree with other things they stand for. I don't mind Cruz on some issues, I don't agree with Mike Lee on multiple things he's done, a lot of which in some way has to do with this issue.

What you have to consider is Mike Lee and Cruz have just as much of a political agenda as any left wing nut too. They all have their dark donation places, and they all have ideologies formed by the political games they play. If you believe in politicians then you don't believe in common sense. Ill stand by the organizations and people who are not politically swayed in this argument and who add information that is not part of some political scheme.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

You could always pick a good liberal democrat and get your land locked up in a national staircase park or something like that.
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RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LOL. We can hunt and enjoy outdoor activities in the staircase park, what we can't do is hunt or even walk on land that has trespassers will be shot signs everywhere.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-15 AT 06:41AM (MST)[p]Strange.... I have acess to national monuments for hunting and recreation, I also am ensured that those places won't be developed and ripped apart. Saving land isn't a bad thing. I go on the Grand Staircase Monument every year 2-3 times for deer and have never been told by the big bad feds to stay off. I also drive right through Panguich now because the people there have such terrible attitudes I don't care to support their community. Maybe if they were a little more welcoming I wouldn't buy everything in Richfield and Kanab. I'll take land protection over land being sold off to the highest bidder and lost forever. All you tell me 1911 is you're too lazy to walk. There's nothing wrong with areas that have limited vehicle access, just because you want full un-limited access to an area does not mean it is "locked up".
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Ideally would be to keep every thing the same, just transfer the land to the States. Instead of Fish Lake National Forest (as example) call it Fish Lake State Forest. Or Utah BLM

No sale of land permitted. Period.

My biggest fear is that the Feds "own" the land and some jackweed President with a pen and a phone could say "In the interest of public safety and national security, no possession of or discharging of fire arms on federal lands." Or a single lawsuit filed by some anti hunter environmental group ends hunting as we know it.

Yes, I know, it will never happen.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

I have personally requested a guarantee written into the law stating no land would be sold. Mike Noel would not agree to it.

I then proposed some sort of compromise that said to sell any land, there must be a 3/4 majority of both houses of state congress, and the signature of the Governor. He would not agree to that either. I felt something like that would protect state land, but allow the sale of land in a special, extenuating circumstance... should one arise.

In 2014, 53% of all property taxes went to public education in the state of Utah. The fact that the proponents say, "Its for the kids and public education" proves that they intend to sell the land. If the land stays public as it is today, there is no additional revenue from property tax to give to public education.

The numbers behind the proposal have been well-documented and this land grab will never be a net-positive proposition. Even the most optimistic (read: unrealistic/currently impossible) numbers barely show a break-even. And that requires a helluva lot of very positive assumptions (like Feds giving up their half of oil royalties), with no negative possibilities taken into account (such as falling oil prices or the Feds refusing to fight fires on state/private land).

Bottom line: If the land is left as it is and not sold off for development, there would be no additional income for the state and no reasonable benefit to induce this land grab in the first place. And that doesn't even take into account the $29 Million in Federal dollars given annually to the counties as 'Payments In Lieu Of Taxes' funding. These funds would go away with the land-grab, so now you are even further behind.

This land grab is only a lose/lose. There is no way this land grab benefits the residents of Utah. Period. You don't have to take my word for it... just read the 800 page study and apply their own projections. You'll see for yourself.

Grizzly
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Grizzly said: "I have personally requested a guarantee written into the law stating no land would be sold. Mike Noel would not agree to it."

I made the same request when I met one on one with Ken Ivory. His response was, "You know that we cannot agree to put a limitation like that in the law."

-Hawkeye-
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Hawkeye said, "I made the same request when I met one on one with Ken Ivory. His response was, "You know that we cannot agree to put a limitation like that in the law."

The same request was made of the Ivory Kool-aid drinkers in the Montana legislature. We asked that all state properties have the deeds restricted that if ever disposed of, the lands would be subject to a public access easement. Many states, even the USFS and BLM, have purchased access easement that last in perpetuity. They become restrictions on the deed that applies to any future owner.

The Ivory leg humpers tried to BS us that such a thing does not exist under law. When it was shown to them that many properties have deed restrictions that last in perpetuity, the next excuse was exactly as you got from Ivory.

Then, when we disproved that problem, they said such an access easement would diminish the market value of the state lands. Which led to the obvious question, "Why do you care about market values, unless you plan to dispose of these lands?" Suddenly they had to run to another meeting.

To me, that is one of the many clear indicators that these folks have zero interest in protecting access to these lands and that their long-term intention is to dispose of the lands if they were to ever get them transferred.

What Eel stated has been requested many times, in many states. Their "party line" answer is to BS people with falsehoods that such cannot be accomplished, even though perpetual deed restrictions happen every day in America.

Sorry to see the good folks of Utah have $14 MM of their money thrown down a rat hole that only benefits the attorneys who are recommending the lawsuit and who will be the recipient of the legal fees paid (at $500 per hour). For the rest of us, your investment in getting your legal teeth handed to you will hopefully wake up legislators in other states that Ivory is selling a bill of goods wrapped in a bow of self-interest.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Good stuff Grizz..............obviously informed BF has been there,done that with these folks.

I get so sick of the MY profit and My personal life is most important thing in the world folks.

Phoney boot strap pullers all.

Steal the $ from the program,unfund it and call a government a failure. But you know how to pull chunk of change of the next victim and that's just good business.

The land was NEVER the states to get back. The states that did get land(13 or so) have almost NO public lands now and many THEME Parks that are good spots to spend $.
The 1st year the state of UT has wildfire on the residents dime,on the state land it will burn into the surrounding states and Good Ole Orin will be at the Federal trough to cover business expenses off the rest of the countries back....again.

I'm getting to old and tired to fight the crooks much anymore,no patience.
So maybe I'll just shoot the 1st a hole that tells me I cannot walk,hunt or what ever on MY PUBLIC LANDS from now on.
That's not extreme, or stupid is it?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

...how about UT,NV,OR or any other state that wants to take over our Federal public lands,because they are so much better at it,can purchase it at FULL currant market value and those funds go to the remaining NF ,and other Federal public lands programs. Locked so the clowns in DC can't touch it again.
Oh and those Federal Hwys and other infrastucture you folks have....now there's toll on the road and a day use fee for any other Federal Public Building/grounds used.
Take up a tithe.

And if you fail in 5 yrs it goes back to the US. No Refund.

I'm picking up on common MBA practices.....and that's not a Major Buss. Admin degree...it's called Major Bunko Artists.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

It's rather amusing that Tristate will sit at a computer and cry for two days straight when money is spent on poaching cases yet this waste of money is acceptable. Go figure.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Transferring Federal lands to state control in not inherently a bad idea. Like all things involving men, the devil is in the details.
A victory in the lawsuit allowing transfer to the state would be a win for both sportsmen and the state of Utah. Much work would remain at that time to ensure the transfers are done in a way to benefit all.

How that transfer eventually plays out is unknown at this time. Some like to point to past shenanigans, of which there are many, to say the result will be bad for hunters. It certainly is a possibility, but not a certainty.
There have been equally as many shenanigans (if not more) on the federal side of land management, many of which have also hurt sportsmen.
Pointing to past problems (from either the feds or the state) to claim there is no other way forward is very narrow thinking. Things will change over time, and we should be working towards the best possible outcome, not crying about past perceived sins.

I support the transfer of federal lands to state control. I also support maintaining these lands as public, multiple use lands open to sportsmen. The ideas are NOT mutually exclusive.

Bill
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Do some research right now natural gas is cheaper than coal in powering power plants.

Tucson electric power just converted their plant for Tucson to natural gas since it was less costly than coal.

Read Rep. Louis Gommerts, R. Texas bill this year to sell off 48% of BLM and U.S. Forest land in the next six years. Luckily it has no chance to pass. See which party supported it the R party not D's. Martha McSally, R AZ will not respond to my requests to explain her vote.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Chewyman,

You really don't know how business works do you. Nor game management.



The latest argument I find hilarious here is all you guys fighting about who is going to fight the fires on the public lands. If you want more and bigger mule deer, QUIT FIGHTING THE DAMN FIRES! Fire suppression is probably the largest reason you don't have enough mule deer.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Tristate you have to be one of the least knowledgable people on public wildlife and lands I've ever seen. I'm not saying you're dumb, I'm just saying you don't get it. You're as bad as the politicians in office who think they know better for us what we need than we do. I get that you don't get it, but don't just fight something to fight. There is serious value in these lands and wildlife and I don't belive you understand it or even see the value.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Oneye,

That's funny that you accuse Tristate of being dumb and not getting it. I have been thinking the same about you and griz. I have explained the facts over and over again in this thread and in prior threads on this subject. The facts speak for themselves, yet you and griz don't get it. Really, it boils down to a disagreement. You are not going to change my opinion or Tristates and I'm not going to change yours or Grizs. Hence, I have not commented much on this subject as of late. It is a waste of time.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Oneye,

I notice you don't refute my statements, you just call me dumb. That is behavior typical of a child who knows he is in over his head.

By the way Oneye who is dumber? The guy who you call dumb or the guy who lies and says he won't respond to that person anymore and still does time after time.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Rackster, You said this above, "Public land belongs to the States, not the feds.....rightfully so by the Constitution", i have to disagree. I believe Public land belongs to all the Citizens, the People of this Country, the rich, those getting by, and poor all alike. And the Government, elected by the people, works for us.

I can definitely understand why you would want to take our land but can't fathom why you think that we would allow you to do so.

I find it interesting that most of the people here that are in favor of the "Land Grab", readily admit that they can afford to hunt where they want and will hunt some of the better hunts regardless of this outcome. They have nothing to lose but i suspect, and others do as well, that they may have much to gain.

Leave our Public land be and feather your nest, make your money or grant positions of power elsewhere, not on the shoulders of what is not yours or the States, but what is now and has been, ours, the People.

Joey




"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-15 AT 01:24PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-15 AT 01:09?PM (MST)

You've explained no FACTS, you've simply denied proven track records. I'm sure you deny the science that fits your views and accept science that makes your life easier as well. What grizzly says is verifiable, and those we've told you to listen to (Randy Newberg) are actually involved with these issues and have seen them on a personal basis. Thy aren't outsiders who believe BS political bullcrap. Keep taking a spoon feeding and calling them facts, Ill defer to those without an agenda. Over 120 sportsmen groups say this idea is crap. Legal experts say this crap. Those without a political agenda say it's crap. Anyone with half a brain can see this is a baseless argument and yet you want to believe in a failed ideology you've been engrained is true.


You two are exactly what gives hunting a dim future.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

I shouldn't entertain your BS, you're definetly a worthless cause.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Good grief Oneye. Calm down. Youre getting a little wrapped too tight.

If you dont want to believe the FACTS I have presented in this and other threads on this subject, that's just fine. I don't care. You are free to believe what you want. However, you better allow others the same.

It doesn't matter to me how many believe what you are saying, there are a grundle of people out there that have the facts straight and disagree with you, myself included.

Just because we disagree, does not mean that I think YOU are full of crap, unknowledgeable, an idiot, have a political agenda, or dumb,(or whatever other adjectives you are trying to throw). I will give you more credit than that.

Stick with the issue at hand instead of throwing personal attacks that are meaningless.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

I don't believe you're an idiot. I believe you don't have an understanding of how great these public lands are and how politically driven your side of the argument is. Again you've given no facts, you've been given them and choose to gnome them. So when this goes to Cory and the court of law hands Utah its teeth in a jar Agee the ads kicking they will inevitably get in this lawsuit, will that then tell you your side of the argument is wrong? Or will you continue to believe that an idea with no basis via the constitution or court of law still has a base? I'm sure you're not a bad guy or someone who is driven to believe these things, but neither am I. At the beginning of all this I was on your side of things but I looked into it. The biggest obstacle for people interested or involved in hunting is access. So giving away millions of acres of access is going to be devastating. You may not believe you need all those hunters who want this access, but you will. Don't forget 10% of the population hunts, 10% want it done away with and 80% make the decision whether it has a place in modern society. If you don't have hunters to defend and bolster hunting, hunting will dwindle away, and transferring these lands is the first step in the process of saying goodbye to it.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-15 AT 02:43PM (MST)[p]Oneye,

YOUR POSITION IS SELF SERVING AND POLITICAL!

Pot meet kettle. Quit acting like somehow your position is one of righteousness.


Sageadvice,

Do you realize you just wrote an entire paragraph explaining how that land belongs to the people and finished by saying the people you disagree with don't have as much right as you to say what happens with it??????????????



How can yall all be so blind? Don't yall realize ITS THERE LAND TOO? They have just as much say as you. Just because they disagree with you doesn't mean they don't "own" part of it themselves? This is how things get worked out when everybody is owner NOT JUST YOU!
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-15 AT 03:25PM (MST)[p]Tri asked, "Do you realize you just wrote an entire paragraph explaining how that land belongs to the people and finished by saying the people you disagree with don't have as much right as you to say what happens with it?"

yes i do realize what i said! Let's vote on it. All the people in this country who currently own that public land, vote if or not, The Pro land grab folks in Utah, can take our public land for their own agenda! That's our land and i believe we should protect it from the few who would take it from the people and use it to their own gain.

I'm actually for the people IN Utah on this, the average guy who has been camping, hunting, fishing, whatever in nice spots that may have been handed down for generations. Nice spots on public land that a wealthy new owner might want to purchase, fence off, build a exclusive private lodge or estate, and put up "No Trespassing" signs.

As i said, the well off are going to get in their hunting but if the grab were successful and the needed sales were implemented to pay for the expense of management and all that entails, with much less available ground to hunt or recreate on, guess who loses out? The common guy who used to have lots of neat places to go!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Sageadvice,

You do not live and operate in a direct democracy. That's not how your government functions.

Your government literally sells billions of dollars of "your" public property every year. Why should they not be able to do the same with this land? You don't scream when they do it on other items.

I have news for you. YOU DON"T WANT STRAIGHT DEMOCRACY POLITICS DECIDING WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR LAND. You know what happens then? Some slick politician promises if the entire state of New York votes to sell the land he'll make sure it will pay for billions of dollars of pork for his state. Do you think 25 million people in the state of New York give a damn about public land mule deer hunting? You may not believe it but your stance and beliefs can become an irrelevant argument real quick in a public referendum.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Tri, I have long ago lost all respect for your opinions and i don't really care what you think of mine. It's your own doing, you love to take the "other Side" and try to win the argument not caring if you're right or wrong, just doing so for arguments sake.

My words are sincere, the best i know with nothing to gain, and only the health of our outdoor heritage at heart. We're at a important crossroads at this very time, a very important crossroads and my opinions will be heard. Have you a good day!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-15 AT 04:20PM (MST)[p]I agree, put it to a vote if you want. The American people despite what Tristate try's to show, I believe care about our wildlife and do care about the future of species. If what Theodore Roosevelt did was wrong, then why didn't politicians undo everything he did right after he left office? Because conservation and wildlife are part of who we are as Americans and we care about those things. Americans do care about these things, many just don't fully understand them. Sageadvice, we hold the lawful, factual based side of the argument. We hold the side of the argument that will ensure a sustained future for hunting,angling, access, and wildlife. For those who choose to believe the other side and disregard those important points, all you can do is give them the information and they'll decide whether wildlife,access, and hunting really have value to them.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Sageadvice,

MY ENTIRE WELL BEING DEPENDS ON HUNTING! I feed cloth and educate three kids on hunting. Why in the world would you think I argue for "arguments sake".

Think real hard about the skin I have in the game. I probably take this a lot more seriously than you can comprehend.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Oneye,

%95 of the people will never set foot on public land in Utah in their entire lives. Why are they going to vote for what you want? %80 don't hunt. Less than %10 ever hunt on any public land anywhere. Over half don't know who Teddy Roosevelt is. Over %90 don't know what any wildlife model is much less the NACM. DO you really want to go up against those guys in a straight vote? You get a slick politician to promise them something stupid like a free phone if they vote for this and you will loose out every time. Never underestimate the power of the stupid or ill-informed masses.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-15 AT 04:46PM (MST)[p]Tristate you have no factual data in that post, don't criticize my facts when youre just throwing around preposterous percentages that aren't true. If hunting means so much to you? Wouldn't you think it means just as much to me and those who use those lands? So why would you be for taking valuable opportunities away from others that you enjoy so much?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

I went conservative! The real numbers are worse!

As for your other question "opportunity" doesn't fix the real problem which is "supply". You keep pushing deer tags or even access to a draw for deer tags but never make sound conservation and management of the herds the primary goal it won't matter how much public land you have to stomped on.

Hunting a dwindling herd is NOT maintaining opportunity.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-15 AT 07:49PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-15 AT 07:47?PM (MST)

Teddy would have said things best when it comes to the fundamental value of public land and the American people.
Tristate will never agree with me because we have totally a different outlook on life, a completely different value system, especially on why it's important to either keep public land in the ownership of all American citizens or to privatize that land.

Its not about the production of mule deer it's far more than that. It's not just about hunting either. I think it's about what we believe Freedom is.

Tristate has a far different view of what freedom is, that will never change, and it can't be resolved with words.

So let the chips fall where they may. I can tell you that this stuff can be the seeds of trouble down the road of history, many many wars have been fought over land ownership.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Really Tristate because there's a 251 page report that doesn't support your statistics at all. Maybe you should actually look at the information that's available. As for supply and demand, no. It is about access, and transferring public lands will hinder that. Also in that 251 page report.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Where and what page exactly.

Every single report I have read in the last year says the percentage of individuals in the USA which support hunting has dropped below %20. Every single report I have read state less than half of those people will ever travel outside of their home state to hunt. I am not talking about a report that covers your local state statistics I am talking about nationwide statistics. You can't pic and choose who gets cut out of a federal referendum. You want the public to vote and that's who the public is. There are a lot more "Showanda Rodriguez Changs" out there that will flush a bunch of land they don't care about for a chance at free cable and some gubmint butter. YOU AND I ARE A MINORITY. A tiny tiny minority. Come to grips with it.


Piper,

I understand why you are afraid but the federal government has been acquiring and selling property ever since I have been alive. This is just the first time you notice it because its where you hunt.

Lastly,

If Utah issues you a deer tag in a unit where there isn't a legal deer to harvest do you call that "opportunity"? Even better if you can have a 1/30,000 chance at acquiring a deer tag where they only issue 5 but realistically only one of the persons will ever see a legal deer, DO YOU call that opportunity?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Hey Pig, which hobby do you enjoy most? Hunting or arguing on the Internet with strangers about things you know nothing about and is none of your business?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

"Hey Pig, which hobby do you enjoy most? Hunting or arguing on the Internet with strangers about things you know nothing about and is none of your business?"



IT IS MY BUSINESS! Do you know what I do for a living? It literally is exactly %100 MY BUSINESS. Do you make money off of hunting Shortgun? Is it really any of "your business"?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Tristate,

How much money did you spend last year in Utah? Are you a tax payer in Utah? Are you a Utah resident?
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Utah400,

That is exactly my point. These people are arquing for it to stay FEDERAL PUBLIC PROPERTY. That means every citizen within the USA owns it. If you want your argument to work where only Citizens of the state of Utah get say in the use and ownership of these lands then you would be behind the battle to change it to state lands.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

This thread is about the Utah wasting money (taxes paid by Utah residents) in an attempt to gain control of federal lands. Again, just so everybody knows...How much did you spend in Utah last year, are you a Utah resident, and did you pay taxes in Utah?

Should you as a Texas Taxidermist, have a say in how Utah decides to spend it's tax dollars? Should the Utah resident's have a say in how their tax dollars are spent?

The selling of public lands is another topic all together.


I am not making any argument. I simply asked you three questions.

(also as a side note...no need to type in all caps)
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

No this thread is about Utah spending money to obtain federal lands for itself. That was what was mentioned in the very first post.

Last year I spent quite a bit of money in Utah. I don't know how much is considered "taxes". My customers spent blinding amounts of money in Utah last year. Again I don't know how much of that you would consider "taxes". I think it is extremely rude of you to ask me how much. Sorry but I come from a family who has a little class and doesn't ask men about their finances and we don't discuss amounts with strangers. I am not a resident of Utah.

As for whether I have a say in spending you bet I have a say. They are spending it in a battle over land that according to yall I own with money which may be from my pocket.

Yes, Utah residents should have a say in in their tax dollars being spent AND YOU DO.

The selling of public lands was specifically discussed by the original poster here I think you may have missed that. The other thing that you may have missed is that it was brought up by another poster and seconded by the original poster that this should go to a public referendum for approval. That is why I gave them the flack that I did, because they were not taking into account the several hundred million people who then suddenly have a right to vote against you.

The last thing you missed is you asked five questions, not three.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

There is no need to type in caps. As I am sure you are aware, typing in caps in yelling on the internet and that is rude in a civil discussion.

Now, to continue my failed attempts at a civil discussion with you...I first asked three simple questions, then added two more when you didn't answer. I don't think it is rude to ask how much you spent in Utah last year as this thread concerns Utah spending its tax revenue. I don't feel you have a dog in that fight if you have not spent your own money in that state. I know you feel differently. I have been very civil in asking a few questions and you want to attack an yell. Again, I am not sure why the hostility but open hostility in a civil discussion is considered rude by most people with class and yelling in a civil conversation often shows a lack of intelligence IMO.

I am glad you and your customers spent "blinding amounts of money in Utah last year." I am sure the state is very appreciative of your taxable donations.

Finally, Thank You for reminding me why I should stay away from trying to chat with you. Merry Christmas and I hope you have a great new year.

P.S. Please post more pics of your family hunting adventures. Those are threads, that you are involved in, that are actually worth my time (it is great to see MM members passing on such a great memories with the future hunters of our great nation)
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Thanks for answering my question Pig. It must really suck living in a big city in TexASS for your favorite hobby to be arguing on the internet.

Oh and thanks for proving 400elks point that it's really none of your business.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

If you think typing in caps is yelling then I can't help you. Maybe get some thicker skin. I put in caps things that I feel are the simplest but most straightforward portions of my argument or portions of the argument which I think you missed on previous posts that are relevant. I never called you any names.

I know you don't think talking about others finances in specifics is rude, that's why you did it. Although you said it I didn't run pouting from your post saying I wouldn't talk to you anymore.

I hope you and yours have a very MERRY CHRISTMAS!
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

> There are a lot
>more "Showanda Rodriguez Changs" out
>there that will flush a
>bunch of land they don't
>care about for a chance
>at free cable and some
>gubmint butter. YOU AND
>I ARE A MINORITY.
>A tiny tiny minority.
>Come to grips with it.
>

It's official. Everyone can stop. Tri has made the most asinine post in the history of this forum. Thank you all for continuing to debate with him, I believe it furthers the understanding for some of us who are less informed.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

The report covers all states and around 36% of people actually hunt public land part of the time. Then we can look at other reports that add in the rock climbers, bikers, hikers, anglers, and many more that use these lands you think people don't know about or support.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

As for your last part... What are you even talking about? Also, there's more to hunt than deer on these lands, I don't just use access to hunt deer, or even just to hunt. So yes, these lands provide opportunities no where else does.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-15 AT 11:40AM (MST)[p]Boy Tristate you just have to be one of the most antagonistic doughboys I've ever listened to. Merry Christmas, hopefully Santa brings you some factual arguments this year.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

If you think %36 of the US populace uses Utah public land I have some property to sell you. You can not honestly be that na?ve.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-15 AT 12:19PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-15 AT 11:48?AM (MST)

400Elk

Actually, Tristate had some very good points. His best point is that he does have a dog in this fight. Utahs taxes are being spent to win the battle over public lands being turned over to the State. As you all keep saying.....everyone in the US owns the public lands...hence he is as much an owner as anyone of us. Thus he has a bone in this fight since the $$ is being spent to turn his public land back to the State. Additionally, there are more States involved in that lawsuit than Utah. Money that Utah throws towards the lawsuit will effect public land in other States. It also effects Tristate, since he is one of the public.

Oneye

Antagonism has come from several people on this thread, including you Oneye. Lets see some of the adjectives you used were...dumb, unknowledgeable, blind sheep, using CAPS in your post (that should get 400Elk riled up), sucking up to those with political agendas, the most antagonistic, doughboy. Did I miss any? Not trying to get you riled up, I'm just pointing out the antagonism that has come from you.

At any rate, does any of that matter? Maybe we ought to just stick with the issue.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-15 AT 12:27PM (MST)[p]Okay lets stick the the issue. The law firm that has looked at this case, even though they think Utah has a case has made it clear they know with 100% certainty they can't expect all the public lands within Utah's borders to be transferred. One pathway they are choosing is disposal of these lands. By filing a lawsuit one of their methods is to try and get the feds to begin transferring or selling some of these lands in order to make it such a pain for them eventually they will just have to find an agreement to come to, which would be sell them. So many of the things Utah republicans are making noise about such as the equal footing doctrine have nothing to do with this issue and were not intended to be used for this purpose. Access is pointed to as the #1 issue as the obstacle for people getting into hunting. These public lands are too valuable to have used for a political agenda, to both hunters and anyone who uses them for the variety of uses they have. I want to see federal land managed better and more effectively, but threatening lawsuits and blasting the feds and their agencies isn't whats going to get it done. Congress needs to fix the issues they can, and federal agencies need more money... period. They also need to be allowed to do things that need to be done without environmental lawsuits constantly hurting them. Congress can fix both of these issues. Hunting and these lands have become a political issue, and that's where this playing field is going to get fixed. I'll tell you one organization that needs to step up and say fix this is a big one. The NRA needs to take a stand and tell congress to fix this and the republican party to stop fooling around with this idea. It would end it. Don't tell me you are for the future of hunting and against the best access hunters currently have. Rackster you have your opinions and I have mine, but access and these lands are very important to hunters and beyond. Transferring them to an entity that has less money and a worse track record of managing land for conservation and access isn't a good idea. I'm not going to leave future generations with less than what I got to enjoy, and I hope you aren't an advocate for leaving less for our future Americans. This a huge problem with today is someone like Roosevelt looked beyond his lifetime at the value of things. We look at short sighted, right now value. Once this happens, if it ever does, these lands will be gone forever, and I don't think we as a generation are in the position to make a decision that we can never go back on.

Also here is the 251 page report about access and hunting and public lands:

https://www.nssf.org/PDF/research/HuntingAccessReport2011.pdf
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Anybody who wants to transfer the lands to the state out of public hands is not for the betterment of the land; they are rather for greed at the disposal of our land permanently for selfish self-serving interests.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Hey Bedawg,

If you transfer the lands from federal to state ownership it is still public property. You may what a short government and civics brush-up coarse.

And not everyone is self serving. I want the feds to give all the lands to homeless people to live on. ;D
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Oneye,

I not even going to bother rebutting the same points you keep bringing up. I already have in previous posts.

BeDawg,

Self Serving? Isn't it rather self serving to demand that public lands be managed solely for one use........the one use YOU want them for? The federal agencies are mandated by federal regulation to manage for multiple use......that means hunting, fishing, outdoor recreation, OHV Use AND ALSO oil & gas development, mining, grazing, timber production, seed collecting, post and pole production, etc. However, environmental groups keep those Decisions by the federal agencies tied up in court...they get sued and appealed at every turn. Furthermore...the land targeted by the State for possible sale.......if the State ever gets the federal public lands transferred to them, which I highly doubt would ever happen.......are those lands that would produce oil & gas. Those lands are desert country with some sage, a few pinon/juniper and DIRT. I highly doubt that would really effect your hunting opportunity or future generations hunting opportunity. There are many more arguments I have stated in previous posts on this thread and other threads talking about the so called "land grab". If you really want to get to all the facts, then you will read what I posted.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

You've refuted nothing. You've brought your opinions to the table, and ignored the vast amount of data available on the issue.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Oneye,

Your arrogance is fascinating! I can say the same with you. You have refuted nothing I have said, just a mere disbelief. That's fine. Like I've said countless times to you, you can believe what you want. However, the facts I have presented, hold as much weight as any facts you say you have presented. Regardless if you say otherwise. I just don't believe what you say.

You can call my facts CRAP, but that is funny, because I can call all the facts you say you have presented as CRAP as well. In fact I do. All you have presented my opinion is CRAP.

So, there you have it. You've been dishing out CRAP, and you say I have been dishing out CRAP.

So now what. I havnt changed your opinion and you havn't changed mine.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Then I guess that what makes America great isn't it? Merry Christmas Rackter, hopefully I can better convince you one day.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Convince me some day? Not a chance! But then it doesn't sound like I have a Chance at convincing you either.

However, I do wish you a Merry Christmas as well. At least we agree on that.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-15 AT 05:23PM (MST)[p]S
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Nice try Griz, but it doesn't change a thing. Especially coming from the Salt Lake "liberal" Tribune.
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

>Nice try Griz, but it doesn't
>change a thing. Especially coming
>from the Salt Lake
>"liberal" Tribune.

Wrong. It doesn't come from the Tribune. It is from an attorney commenting on the money being thrown away by the "conservatives" in the state legislature, it just happens to be published in the Tribune.

If you have a beef with the info and opinions given, fine... I'll respect any educated opinion that you can support. But don't you think your criticism should be based on the issues at hand, and not where that issue is written?

Grizzly
 
RE: Utah looking to waste $14 million more of OUR tax dollars to control and sell OUR public lands

Yes I am right. The Trib published it, because they think it fits with their agenda....liberalism. Just like the Herald Journal.

There are other attorneys in Utah that support the law suit. So, it still doesn't change a thing. I hope they do win the lawsuit. But I think it is a far chance of happening. I don't have to be an attorney to see that.
 

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