Unit 45 Elk

Hawkeye

Hawkeye

Long Time Member
Messages
3,022
After applying for 10 years, I finally drew a Unit 45-1 elk tag. My BIL (robiland) had this same tag 4 years ago and shot a nice bull during the archy hunt. I hope to rely in part on his knowledge and "guiding services." I plan on hunting during the archery hunt and then returning for the rifle hunt if I have not tagged out. I would welcome any suggestions or input from those of you who have hunted unit 45 in the past -- particularly if you hunted in the last 2-3 years. I would love to see photos of your bulls if you were successful. Feel free to post, pm or email me. I am so excited that I hope that I can make it through the next few months. Thank you in advance to those of you who are willing to help and share information.

-Hawkeye-
 
Uhhh Oooh

You might want to make some comments on the draft regulations:

Elk draft regulations:
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/April_CH-7_Draft-1-22-18-2.pdf

Submit a Comment on Elk
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Get-Involved/Public-Meetings

The draft regulations removes the ability of Type 1 tag holders to hunt the archery hunt in 45.

I would be pissed, but as pointed out to me in another post this came out in mid-January. They really should have put a big * in the proclamation that this might change.

Spending 10 points to do as you wanted to do was a great idea, but it might not work out for you. Sorry.
 
RE: Uhhh Oooh

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-18 AT 12:14PM (MST)[p]If I were you, after spending so many years in preparation for this hunt, I would contact every Commissioner you can and I mean by phone! This is total BS that they have this draw, issue you a tag, then change the regs in the middle of the game.
 
RE: Uhhh Oooh

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-18 AT 12:08PM (MST)[p]That sketchy change is why I put in for the 45-9 tag. It'd be crap to change it for this years applicants.
 
RE: Uhhh Oooh

And there is the counter argument, what if you put in 45-9 knowing there would be less bow hunters and spent a pile of points?
 
RE: Uhhh Oooh

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-18 AT 12:41PM (MST)[p]Yep; I agree with jm77 because it sucks to do it for this season after not making it known that a big change like that was coming. I read the G&F website dang near every day and know Wyoming stuff almost like I work in the G&F Department and I had to hunt to find that strikeout they made with only about 8 or 9 days left in the January application period when I started hearing gossip out on Forums and it was gossip about the other unit and not 45! I would bet that 90% of the guys that got a 45-1 tag with plans to hunt the last two weeks of September with a bow had no idea that the G&F plans to abolish that possibility for 2018, rather than making it for 2019. I do think it should go through, but with the change to take place in 2019 and not this year so the playing field is fair next year because it sure isn't if it passes as effective this year.
 
Hawkeye,

I had 45-1 last year but hunted during the archery time. Could have killed several bulls but was looking for above 320 which I only saw three of but it snowed hard while I was there and not much bugling going on. I was going to return during rifle but a family emergency didn't allow that to happen. Would be happy to help get you started though but I'll need to get my maps out and PM you or we can get on the phone together while we both have maps out. Let me know how you'd like to do it.
 
RE: Uhhh Oooh

>And there is the counter argument,
>what if you put in
>45-9 knowing there would be
>less bow hunters and spent
>a pile of points?

It will certainly be great if it goes through for the successful 45-9 guys that knew this was coming for 2018 and planned to hunt the last half of September. It will suck for them if they drew and it doesn't go through for 2018 and they have a lot more people to contend with. Both reasons are good examples of why this draw shouldn't be done until the summer with the deer and antelope draws because the G&F is violating their own requirements of having it before the Final Regs are voted on and published towards the end of April!
 
Wow. I have to admit that I was not aware that change had been proposed. My plan all along was to hunt the archery hunt and then return for the rifle hunt if I had not tagged out. That proposed change is a a real bummer. I would not have applied for a 45-1 tag if I knew that I would not be able to archery hunt. I guess I will voice my opinion to the commissioners and hope for the best.

-Hawkeye-
 
RE: Uhhh Oooh

>And there is the counter argument,
>what if you put in
>45-9 knowing there would be
>less bow hunters and spent
>a pile of points?


The change is nowhere near in stone until the Commission votes on it. Applying for a license type based on a proposed regulation change is gambling. Hawkeye applied based on information supplied him.
 
>Wow. I have to admit
>that I was not aware
>that change had been proposed.
> My plan all along
>was to hunt the archery
>hunt and then return for
>the rifle hunt if I
>had not tagged out.
> That proposed change is
>a a real bummer.
>I would not have applied
>for a 45-1 tag if
>I knew that I would
>not be able to archery
>hunt. I guess I
>will voice my opinion to
>the commissioners and hope for
>the best.
>
>-Hawkeye-

Remember, you applied before any reg change was approved. You have a strong argument considering how many points you just burned. This is another reason the early drawing sucks.
 
Yes, jm77 you are correct. It looks like the proposed regulations came out on 1/22/2018. However, the nonresident application period opened on 1/2/2018 and closed on 1/31/2018. I am guessing that there are many sportsmen who applied before the proposed change was announced. I already submitted my written comments. I will also try to reach out to individual commissioners.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-18 AT 01:32PM (MST)[p]

My argument would be, you applied under Commission approved season dates, and drew a license for those approved dates.

I suspect it will take the threat of legal action to scare the Commission into moving the dates and breaking the outfitter/commission bond.
 
This is why you should be able to turn your tag in and get your points back in Wyoming. Not really fair when they change things after the draw.
 
>My argument would be, you applied
>under Commission approved season dates,
>and drew a license for
>those approved dates.
>
>I suspect it will take the
>threat of legal action to
>scare the Commission into moving
>the dates and breaking the
>outfitter/commission bond.


***Not quite following you on that outfitter comment regarding this discussion Bob! What, if anything, did WYOGA have to do with that strikeout of 41 and 45?
 
>>My argument would be, you applied
>>under Commission approved season dates,
>>and drew a license for
>>those approved dates.
>>
>>I suspect it will take the
>>threat of legal action to
>>scare the Commission into moving
>>the dates and breaking the
>>outfitter/commission bond.
>
>
>***Not quite following you on that
>outfitter comment regarding this discussion
>Bob! What, if anything,
>did WYOGA have to do
>with that strikeout of 41
>and 45?

Bob is right Mike. He is talking about the early draw.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-18 AT 05:50PM (MST)[p]Not quite following you on that
>>outfitter comment regarding this discussion
>>Bob! What, if anything,
>>did WYOGA have to do
>>with that strikeout of 41
>>and 45?
>
>Bob is right Mike. He is
>talking about the early draw.
>


Thanks Jeff, as I didn't read it close enough and now see that he's talking about the application and draw dates, but I have to admit that I didn't know WYOGA had anything to do with the draw for NRs being this early!
 
I believe that they gave more 45-9 tags and fewer 45-1 tags to account for this change. If so, I would be surprised if the rule change did not go through.

On another note, it was interesting to see the special odds be worse than the normal odds.
 
Sierra, the proposed tag numbers for 45-1 and 45-9 tags are identical to last year. I sent in a public comment and emailed each of the commissioners. I guess I will have to wait to see what happens.

-Hawkeye-
 
Have a buddy that drew the 45-1 tag and was also planning on doing the bow hunt so I'll be sure to have him send his comments in as well. That option is a really nice option to have so now it might be gone forever. Hawkeye, I hunted it in 2015 and scouted with your BIL in 2014 and also tagged along with a buddy in 2016. Might plan a joint scouting trip with you this summer as I'll be helping my buddy???? PM if interested!
 
Seems as though there will be a lot of us in the same boat. Our group drew 45-1 as well. I just sent in my comments too. Hopefully, if enough of us chime in maybe they will at least put it off until 2019 season.
Hawkeye, just beginning to put the plan together for our hunt. We'll have a camp with about 5 of us. Be neat to compare notes...maybe catch up with you in the hills. Always nice to know others on the Mt if you ever find yourself in a pinch or to just share a drink and stories with.
If anybody is willing to help out I'm open to any advice. It will be my first and with the point system probably my last chance at this unit.

Thanks,
Dman
 
The vote on this at the Commission meeting in April is going to be interesting and it may hinge on how many guys who drew tags in each of the two draws input their feelings on this change as to what they do. On the one hand, guys that did know about the change and drew 45-9 tags thinking it would help them due to fewer hunters the last half of September may input their feelings to keep the change in effect. Those who drew the 45-1 tag like Hawkeye thinking they would bowhunt in September and are now finding about this change after they applied should all raise holy hell. There were 54 NR tags issued to 45-1 applicants and 59 NR tags to 41-1 applicants out of the total tag numbers of 350 and 375, respectively, in the tentative Regulation. There may have to be a huge number of not only NRs that are affected by that change that gripe to the Commission, but also a lot of residents that see the change coming before they apply and don't like it that also gripe. The latter, if it's a large number, may swing the Commission vote to nix the change at least for this year. If the number is low the Commission members may leave it as is figuring they are only pissing off the low number of NRs that drew the Type 1 tags and won't be back for a long time, if ever, to Wyoming. This whole thing would have been avoided if the Commission wasn't violating their own rule by having the NR draw well before the Final Regulation is voted on and posted in late April. Since both of these units are so popular for the Type 1 tag holders to hunt in September and October and to now change that in April may either end up in litigation or the Commission voluntarily changing the NR draw to coincide with the other draw in June like it always should have been.
 
I do wonder how many of these 45-9 tag holders put in for the tag thinking of the lower pressure. As you can see, individuals with way more points than have been required went after it this year.

34216creeeep.jpg
 
My guess would be a whole bunch of them did. That's a neat graph to easily see how the PPs went up each year to have a 100% chance at drawing that tag. In the Special Draw nobody put in with less than 9 PPs, but with 9 PPs all the tags went at a 83.33% draw rate.
 
Another possibility why more put in could be that people look ahead and realize they may have a very long wait to draw 1 of the max points units. So point creep in the next lower point levels get more applicants as people decide they may not be able to hunt or just don't want to wait. So hunt while you have the strength and energy becomes the thinking. Just my perspective as an aging baby boomer!
 
That is why I drew it last year. I thought I had max points and when I realized I had missed a year somehow and was no longer in the pool of guys with max points I thought why wait so I spent my points on this unit. Anyone that has this unit that needs help feel free to PM me.
 
To me it's just common sense, but this country has seemingly gotten away from using any of that anymore. It would be pretty shitty to change the rules in the middle of the game. If they want to eliminate the type 1 holders from bowhunting just make it effective in 2019 not this year, that way everyone knows the rules before applying next yr. there is no reason they have to make effective for the upcoming season after ppl have applied and drew the tag and assumed they could bowhunt as has been in previous yrs. it's not about what group u piss off but about doing the right thing.
 
Does anyone know if the HUNT PLANNER stated in 41 and 45 that there would be no special archery season when the application period started in early January or was that section also changed late in the application period like the Regulation Section?

Thomas11---I don't think anyone would disagree with your statement about doing the right thing and we'll just have to wait and see what they do.
 
Doug-

Let's stay in touch. Perhaps we can help each other with scouting or during the hunt. Thanks.

-Hawkeye-
 
Dman, that sounds great. Let's stay in touch and connect with each other during the hunt.

-Hawkeye-
 
Will do! Talked to your BIL today and I'll have to get some target date(s) for scouting first from my buddy but likely in August.
 
>The hunt planner does not show
>special rechery seasons as they
>are in the regulations.


I know where they are Bob, but The HUNT PLANNER for units 41 and 45 advises in each one of them that there is no special archery season in the unit!
 
>Oh, you're talking about the online
>planner. I never use that
>thing.

The reason I went there a day ago is because there was no notice anywhere in the booklet for the 2018 season on a big change like that. That would have been the easiest way to fairly notify people of that change IF it had been done there before the application period. It must not have been decided until late in January since the strikeout wasn't there in the Tentative Regulation until 1/22 and I'd bet hardly anyone looks at that, including myself, and a lot don't even know it exists and just look at last years seasons. I'm wondering if the Hunt Planner showed that change before the application period started or if it was stuck in there on 1/22 when the strikeout went up. I'm guessing it was the latter, but that's why I asked if anyone had seen it in there before January.
 
To you guys who stand to lose archery hunting in 41 & 45, it would be wise to call each one of the Commissioners. Your online comment may not do the trick.
 
i cant wait for wyoming to make everyone choose their weapon... hunting archery and rifle only makes for poor archery hunters.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-18 AT 09:15AM (MST)[p]>i cant wait for wyoming to
>make everyone choose their weapon...
>hunting archery and rifle only
>makes for poor archery hunters.
>


Don't hold your breath waiting. Every public survey I know about says over 70% of hunters don't want it.

And the last I knew, it's poor archery hunters that make for poor archery hunters.
 
Right on with your last two posts jm77. Anyone that has a vested interest that drew tags for 2018 in units 41 or 45 need to contact the individual Commissioners by phone, mail, or emails so you know you have been heard. I loved your response to our newbie on poor archery hunters Jeff! In fact, I don't even know what his statement was getting at. Did it mean that a person can only be proficient with one type of device or what? Maybe he will come back and explain himself.
 
First of all thanks Hawkeye for starting this thread. Second thanks to jm77 for the advice on contacting the commission to be heard about the changes proposed after the drawing. I'm in the same boat as I used 11 points to draw what I'm hoping will be a fun hunt. I'm planning to hunt the archery portion along with antelope nearby (75) if the commission doesn't change the rules. If not I will be coming back solo for the rifle season from Washington state to make the best of it. Either way, looking forward to finally being able to hunt Wyoming elk and antelope! Any information anyone is willing to share would be greatly appreciated. Best of luck to all of ya!! Mike
 
Jeff-

I sent in my comments to the proposed regulations and I also emailed each commissioner. Do you think I should also call the commissioners and speak with them over the phone? I did not see phone numbers listed on the website.

Thanks for the help.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-18 AT 08:55AM (MST)[p]>Jeff-
>
>I sent in my comments to
>the proposed regulations and I
>also emailed each commissioner.
>Do you think I should
>also call the commissioners and
>speak with them over the
>phone? I did not
>see phone numbers listed on
>the website.
>
>Thanks for the help.
>
>-Hawkeye-

The individual contact by email should help your cause. If a few more hunters with the same issue do the same, that will get the wheels turning for sure. Without a doubt, contact by phone would be the best. You might just have to contact the Dept about phone numbers or sometimes a google search will get you a lead on phone contact.

I would get this out on other hunting forums, there still may be others who don't realize what could happen to 41/45 type 1 hunters. I know for a fact that two commissioners are on hunting pages on Facebook. One quite regularly.

PM me your phone#, we should talk. It really bugs me how this process is handled. As much as NR contribute to wildlife management in Wyoming, through licenses and PP fees, this kind of crap should not happen. Changing the proposed seasons 10 days before the app deadline is not how it should work. But the fact is, this is all a product of an early drawing, before seasons and quotas are approved by the Commission.

I can tell you this: last year do to contact by NRs who had drawn tags and were in a similar predicament as you, it was changed back at the season setting meeting. Commissioners made comments about being contacted over that issue. So it does make a difference.
 
A general question on this issue - Why are they considering this to just those 2 units? Is there something unique about them compared to other units that have that option? Just curious as I hunted it in 2015 and I'd heard some say that it creates an big increase in hunters after the 15th. This was not at all my experience as more people with Type 9 tags were leaving around mid Sept and not a lot of new hunters came in. I hunted from the 1st day thru the 20th the left and returned for the last 3 days of the season and it was deserted.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-18 AT 02:16PM (MST)[p]You must have been in a different part of the unit than I was in 2014 because that year and again in 2015 when I was helping friends on their Type 9 tags there was quite an increase in hunters the rest of the month. IMHO the Type 9 tags are great in the Big Horn units because you don't have to worry about grizzly bears or wolves like you do over on the west side of the state. IMHO eliminating the Type 1 tags from hunting in September like several of the other units up there is the way to go so people have a quality hunt, but not the way they are doing it right in the middle of the application period for the NRs. All they would need to do is put an asterisk by that line and say that it's effective in 2019 or take out the strike out and put it in bold on the front page of the booklet for 2019 because those two units attract a lot of hunters who should know up front before their applications go in. The other alternative is extending the application period and having the draw in June with the other draws.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-18 AT 07:53AM (MST)[p]Several people have PM'd me and asked for the email addresses for the commissioners so that they can send an email expressing concern about the proposed change to eliminate the ability of 45-1 and 41-1 tagholders to archery hunt. I will include their contact information below. I sent the commissioners an email expressing my concern and frustration that the proposed change was announced on January 22nd but the NR application opened on January 2nd and closed on January 31st. Major changes such as eliminating the archery hunt for Type 1 tagholders should be announced well in advance of the application period so that sportsmen like me don't burn a decade's worth of bonus points only to find out after the fact that the rules are changing. I applied for this hunt so that I could hunt rutting bulls with my bow and then return for the rifle hunt if I have not filled my tag - like other Type 1 tagholders have done in the past. If I would have known about the change, I would have applied for a Type 9 tag. Therefore, I have asked the commissioners to delay the effective date for the proposed change until 2019 so that sportsmen have fair notice of the change.

If you feel included to send an email to the commissioners please explain your concerns but be respectful.

Their emails adresses are as follows: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]

I have also included a link to the contact page on the F&G website: https://wgfd.wyo.gov/About-Us/Game-and-Fish-Commission/Meet-the-Commissioners

-Hawkeye-
 
Hawkeye - I submitted my comments which is basically I'd like to see them not change the additional bow rule EVER in these 2 units. I understand for the benefit of those that drew the tag this year, it would be great to delay this change till next year but my real question is why eliminate this? Not sure if anyone on here knows what has prompted this proposal as we only see the proposed end result. I'm not sure if I'll be able to draw it again while I can still hunt but in general, this seems like a good option. Maybe the Type 9 people don't agree or like it since it potentially brings more hunters in during September? I hunted it with a Type 9 tag and if I had to do it again, I think I'd choose the Type 1 tag if the bow option was available. Anyway, I think if everyone asks for the delay (which seems like they might go for that) that might make them feel it's OK to eliminate it in 2019 and forever after! Do you know, has anyone asked them why this is being proposed?
 
>Hawkeye - I submitted my comments
>which is basically I'd like
>to see them not change
>the additional bow rule EVER
>in these 2 units.
>I understand for the benefit
>of those that drew the
>tag this year, it would
>be great to delay this
>change till next year but
>my real question is why
>eliminate this? Not sure
>if anyone on here knows
>what has prompted this proposal
>as we only see the
>proposed end result. I'm
>not sure if I'll be
>able to draw it again
>while I can still hunt
>but in general, this seems
>like a good option.
>Maybe the Type 9 people
>don't agree or like it
>since it potentially brings more
>hunters in during September?
>I hunted it with a
>Type 9 tag and if
>I had to do it
>again, I think I'd choose
>the Type 1 tag if
>the bow option was available.
> Anyway, I think if
>everyone asks for the delay
>(which seems like they might
>go for that) that might
>make them feel it's OK
>to eliminate it in 2019
>and forever after! Do
>you know, has anyone asked
>them why this is being
>proposed?

Yes, I asked. They said they got 9 comments in the field; four wanted it, 5 were against. A few others commented on their elk surveys in favor, but bottom line, limited amount of public comments got this change.
 
I think that the whole thing is about selling more licenses. Removing the type 1 bowhunters makes room for more type 9. As a result there will be no more opportunity to hunt with firearm and bow during the same season in the Bighorns except in 36 and 37 which are relatively poor hunting areas.

You cant even hunt the whole month of September like you can in most general areas.
I have already written commissioners to keep 41 and 45 the same, not just this year.
 
>I think that the whole thing
>is about selling more licenses.
> Removing the type 1
>bowhunters makes room for more
>type 9. As a
>result there will be no
>more opportunity to hunt with
>firearm and bow during the
>same season in the Bighorns
>except in 36 and 37
>which are relatively poor hunting
>areas.
>
>You cant even hunt the whole
>month of September like you
>can in most general areas.
>
>I have already written commissioners to
>keep 41 and 45 the
>same, not just this year.
>

I have to disagree with your conclusion that it's to sell more tags, as the number of Type 1 and Type 9 licenses being offered for both units for 2018 is identical to last years totals.
 
I emailed the commissioners and got 1 response back that said public comments impact their decisions significantly so write to them directly if you have comments. (Email addresses provided earlier by one of Hawkeyes posts). My opinion is to leave it as is as I see no reason why these 2 units should be any different than others in the State. Seems like if we suggest not doing it this year and postpone till 2019, its saying we're Ok with it but just not this year.
 
>>I think that the whole thing
>>is about selling more licenses.
>> Removing the type 1
>>bowhunters makes room for more
>>type 9. As a
>>result there will be no
>>more opportunity to hunt with
>>firearm and bow during the
>>same season in the Bighorns
>>except in 36 and 37
>>which are relatively poor hunting
>>areas.
>>
>>You cant even hunt the whole
>>month of September like you
>>can in most general areas.
>>
>>I have already written commissioners to
>>keep 41 and 45 the
>>same, not just this year.
>>
>
>I have to disagree with your
>conclusion that it's to sell
>more tags, as the number
>of Type 1 and Type
>9 licenses being offered for
>both units for 2018 is
>identical to last years totals.
>

Nope, I was told by the Wildlife Management Coordinator in Cody they have raised type 9 tags by 50. It's to sell more tags and appease some guys who want Sept to themselves. Send comments...I personally feel this is bad for the quality of bulls in those areas.
 
>>I have to disagree with your
>>conclusion that it's to sell
>>more tags, as the number
>>of Type 1 and Type
>>9 licenses being offered for
>>both units for 2018 is
>>identical to last years totals.
>>
>
>Nope, I was told by the
>Wildlife Management Coordinator in Cody
>they have raised type 9
>tags by 50. It's to
>sell more tags and appease
>some guys who want Sept
>to themselves. Send comments...I personally
>feel this is bad for
>the quality of bulls in
>those areas.


***Then why does the Tentative 2018 Reg. show the same totals for both the Type 1 and Type 9 tags in both units as 2017 if what you're saying is accurate Jeff?
 
TOPGUN - Where are you seeing proposed tag numbers for 2018? Is it in the proposed reg changes for 2018 as I kind of assumed that this is only changes to rules and not 2018 tag numbers. I'm not up on when they set the numbers but I thought this wasn't done till later so I thought they just reposted last years table with any reg changes noted in RED but not tag projections.
I plan to call the Office manager today so if I talk to him, I'll let you all know what he says.
 
Topgun-

The proposed tag numbers for 2018 are the same as 2017. However, the F&G has raised tag numbers in unit 45 over the past several years. I believe that is what Jeff is referring to and I think those recent tag increases are the supposed justification for the proposal to eliminate cross-over hunting in units 41 and 45.

-Hawkeye-
 
Great comments. If you have concerns regarding the proposed change please email send in written comments and email the commissioners. The contact information to do so is in Post #45 above.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-18 AT 09:53AM (MST)[p]Okay guys; what I did was take some time and went back over the last three years to see what the total number of tags issued to residents in those two units was (2015-2017). For 41-1 the totals were 304, 302, 302 and for 41-9 were 105, 104, 128. For 45-1 the totals were 266, 256, 257 and for 45-9 were 125, 124, 146. Thus, the Type 1 tags stayed flat, but the Type 9 tags went up 24 and 22, respectively, for the residents. Since we already had the 2018 draw for NRs I have 4 years of stats and they are as follows: For 41-9 there were 20 tags issued in each of the three previous years and 28 issued this year for an increase of 8. For 45-9 there were 24 tags issued in each of the three previous years and 32 issued this year for an increase of 8.

In summary, I think this shows that the draw needs to be changed to the same as residents since an NR can only guess and pray that the tag totals will stay the same or increase from the previous year. This year for those two units it worked out to the advantage of the NRs that applied with more tags being issued than previous years. However, if that were reversed, the odds of drawing with a similar number of applicants from the previous year would also change for the worse. The 41-1 and 45-1 tags for residents stayed static for 2015-2017, while the 41-9 and 45-9 tags increased by 24 and 22, respectively. Meanwhile, the Type 9 tags for both units stayed the same for those same three years for NRs and have now gone up as mentioned earlier. For a person trying to look at stats to apply for the NR draw well before the Final Regulation comes out is about as bad as looking at that scratch out we're talking about that will take away a season that a person applied for and then had the rug pulled out from under! Therefore, my comment to the G&F was that no major change such as this scratch out for the Type 1 tag holders should take place AFTER the application period commences if the draw date stays the same and preferably that the NR draw be moved to the later date when all the other draws are held for deer, resident elk, and antelope such that they are not violating their own statute.
 
I just had a long chat with the Regional Wildlife Officer, Tim. First off he said the full potential changes that would be voted on will be published on the 21st or 22nd so he suggested to check back then to see more topics. Although for me I was mainly interested in the potential elimination of the bow option for Type 1 tag holders. I asked why these 2 units in particular were identified for the change and he said it is mostly based on feedback they've received which could be from Field Officers or other avenues of commenting. So, if a lot of Type 9 hunters complain, the squeaky wheel gets the attention. He seemed to point out the benefit of having Type 9 hunters having a greater amount of tags and giving them their own season rather than mixing the two. He did say they like to hear what the hunters have to say so they can make decisions based on feedback so if you haven't commented yet, you might want to wait till after the new proposals come out as the current revisions were carried over of things they new they were going to address. I did express my opinion was to leave the Bow option in as that was one unique thing about WY that I thought was a great option for those that like to hunt both weapons. Obviously people favor whatever their style of hunting is and we acknowledged that whatever is decided, it's not going to please everyone. I got the hint that if they changed it now, they'd try to be fair and either offer a tag/point refund for those that wanted it.....no promises but he did say they wanted to be fair and have talked to a few folks that were planning on bow hunting with the Type 1 tag.

As a side note I mentioned that the worst WY reg is the Wilderness Restriction which he said was passed by the Legislation a while ago so it would be much more difficult to change that. Since most NR's aren't going to fork over the money to have lawyers lobby to change it (NR's voice is small compared to R's), there's not much chance that would ever be changed.

So it sounded like if this passed, more Type 9 tags would be the result which personally I didn't like as when I hunted with a Type 9 tag, there were lots more hunters the 1st half of the month compared to the last half. One area I hunted had probably 12-15 ATV's going in before daylight so I just tried to either go way earlier or go to other areas.
 
COLOelkman---I doubt if it passes that there will be that many more Type 9 tags issued. I also think that what you mentioned about there being a lot more Type 9 hunters the first half of September than the second half is due to the influx of Type 1 tags on the 15th that they don't want to contend with. If the restriction goes through IMHO that will not happen any longer and the hunter numbers will be spread out more throughout the entire month. I also have a feeling that if they have already talked about offering a "tag/point refund" that that may mean the handwriting is on the wall and this is going to go through as now written.
 
He actually mentioned this would allow them to issue around 50 more type 9 tags so not sure if that might be more hunters than the Type 1 Rifle guys that buy bow tags would be? I think this was not a very specific plan but he did mention 50 more tags.
 
>COLOelkman---I doubt if it passes that
>there will be that many
>more Type 9 tags issued.
> I also think that
>what you mentioned about there
>being a lot more Type
>9 hunters the first half
>of September than the second
>half is due to the
>influx of Type 1 tags
>on the 15th that
>they don't want to contend
>with. If the restriction
>goes through IMHO that will
>not happen any longer and
>the hunter numbers will be
>spread out more throughout the
>entire month. I also
>have a feeling that if
>they have already talked about
>offering a "tag/point refund" that
>that may mean the handwriting
>is on the wall and
>this is going to go
>through as now written.

If Commissioners hear from enough hunters, this can be changed. Tim told me they asked 9 hunters in the field, 5 against the change, 4 in favor, also some meeting feedback. They should have done a survey of hunters through the mail, linked to the website, like they did here around Casper. In our survey, pending final results, 73-75% are against choose your weapon seasons. Why would Cody area be any different?
 
I did ask why this area was different than the rest of the State and it basically sounded like they got a bit more feedback for the proposal vs against which sounded like you say was based on very limited surveys/discussions of hunters. He said there is no uniformity statewide and it's up to each Region how they do things. So not really a consistent system as each Region decides what they want to propose. Hope I'm quoting this right but that was my takeaway. Their local meetings start soon so it probably depends on who shows up at the meetings to voice their opinions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-18 AT 06:35PM (MST)[p]I can't answer that question about why would Cody be different than down where you're at Jeff. I know if this goes through that it would fall in line with several of the other units in the Big Horns that don't allow Type 1 tags to hunt in September and that have been that way for quite a long time. I also don't know what led to that decision on those units or when it actually happened. I also wonder what the comments and numbers would be if this change had been proposed well ahead of time like it should have been so everyone would have had a heads up, rather than them doing this late in the NR application period. That IMHO is what really sucks more than anything else in that the G&F doesn't appear to be looking very close at the people that support the Department monetarily---US, in the way this has been proposed in an almost "under the table" manner!!!
 
I have now had conversations with Tim Woolley the Wildlife Management Coordinator for the Cody Region and Pete Dube, one of the Game and Fish Comissioners. Both of these gentlemen were polite and informative, and they both expressed concern about the lack of notice to nonresidents. I truly appreciate them making time to speak wth me. Even after these conversations, however, I remain concerned that the Commissioners will approve the proposed change and make it effective this year. In fact, both of these gentlemen mentioned the License Review Board process by which hunters like me could petition for a refund of $ of points in the event that the change goes through. I sure hope that I do not have a make a decision between hunting rifle only or petitioning for a refund. I prefer that they leave the rules as they currently are and allow cross over hunting or, at a minimum, postpone the proposed change until 2019 so that hunters have fair notice of the change before applying and burning a decade's worth of points.

If you have strong feelings on this issue, make them know now before the Commissioners meet in April.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-18 AT 09:08PM (MST)[p]Thanks Hawkeye. I got the same feeling when I talked to Tim that they thought it may likely pass. I'm not sure if people understand what's been the thinking based on what I've found out. It seems like the proposal was put forth based on feedback of overcrowding after the 15th when the Type 1 people that bought a bow tag would arrive. The most popular time to hunt is mid to late Sept. so that's when this issue seems to happen which makes total sense to me although where I hunted I didn't experience that at all. However, I was told that if they pass the proposal, they would plan to add 50 more Type 9 tags which would seem to offset the entire reason for the proposal. This is from my understanding of reading about the issue and talking to the WG&F however I've not found anywhere in writing where they've stated they would do that if it passes.
I'm not sure how many Type 1 hunters buy the bow tag but adding 50 more tags seems to offset the real complaint or purpose. The numbers I found for 2017 shows 257 R Type 1 tags and 32 NR Reg. and 22 NR Special tags. (not sure why I'm not seeing NR's being 10% of the R tags so maybe I'm missing something???) I've not seen the idea to add 50 more Type 9 tags anywhere in writing so it seems kind of deceptive to get comments on eliminating the bow option without including that this would allow them to issue 50 more bow tags! Perhaps I'm missing something here but I'm certainly even more of the opinion to leave things they way they are.
 
What you're missing Doug is that the proposal not only eliminates the Type 1 tag holders from hunting in September, but also the Type 4 and 5 tag holders. That eliminates 875 possible September hunters in unit 41 and 700 possible September hunters in unit 45. Even if they would add 50 Type 9 tags to each unit that will be a lot less of an increase in September than the number the proposal eliminates even if only 10% of those other Types bought a bow tag and I would guess that's it's a lot higher than 10%. That is not even adding in the 250 Type 6 tag holders that could buy an archery tag in unit 41. Unit 45 also has 275 Type 6 & 7 tag holders with the 250 Type 6 holders having a season from 8/15-11/30 and the 25 Type 7 tag holders able to buy an archery permit for September along with their rifle season from 12/1-1/15. I think that with those huge numbers being eliminated that the G&F feels that the quality of the hunt will be a lot better the last half of September with a lot fewer hunters. Those are just my thoughts as to why I think they are going with that proposal and my only problem with it is if they make it retroactive to this season and my guess is that they will and will make it easier for people like Hawkeye to get a refund and their points reinstated, rather than not pass it or make it for 2019. I guess we'll see what happens when the Regulation is voted on and posted in less than five weeks.
 
>What you're missing Doug is that
>the proposal not only eliminates
>the Type 1 tag holders
>from hunting in September, but
>also the Type 4 and
>5 tag holders. That
>eliminates 875 possible September hunters
>in unit 41 and 700
>possible September hunters in unit
>45. Even if they
>would add 50 Type 9
>tags to each unit that
>will be a lot less
>of an increase in September
>than the number the proposal
>eliminates even if only 10%
>of those other Types bought
>a bow tag and I
>would guess that's it's a
>lot higher than 10%.
>That is not even adding
>in the 250 Type 6
>tag holders that could buy
>an archery tag in unit
>41. Unit 45 also
>has 275 Type 6 &
>7 tag holders with the
>250 Type 6 holders having
>a season from 8/15-11/30 and
>the 25 Type 7 tag
>holders able to buy an
>archery permit for September along
>with their rifle season from
>12/1-1/15. I think that
>with those huge numbers being
>eliminated that the G&F feels
>that the quality of the
>hunt will be a lot
>better the last half of
>September with a lot fewer
>hunters. Those are just
>my thoughts as to why
>I think they are going
>with that proposal and my
>only problem with it is
>if they make it retroactive
>to this season and my
>guess is that they will
>and will make it easier
>for people like Hawkeye to
>get a refund and their
>points reinstated, rather than not
>pass it or make it
>for 2019. I guess
>we'll see what happens when
>the Regulation is voted on
>and posted in less than
>five weeks.

Really Mike? Just how many cow elk tag holders do you think hunt archery? From my experience, darn few.

I will make this offer to any nonresidents out there that may be effected negatively by this new regulation: I will bring your case to the Commissioners in April. You have to contact me and give me your name and permission to speak for you.

Jeff
 
Jeff-

We have already spoken and you know my thoughts on the issue. Please speak on my behalf to the commissioners at the upcoming meeting. Thank you.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-18 AT 08:26AM (MST)[p]Really Mike? Just how many cow
>elk tag holders do you
>think hunt archery? From my
>experience, darn few.
>
>I will make this offer to
>any nonresidents out there that
>may be effected negatively by
>this new regulation: I will
>bring your case to the
>Commissioners in April. You have
>to contact me and give
>me your name and permission
>to speak for you.
>
>Jeff

I did not mean to intimate that the cow hunters were hunting with archery equipment Jeff. My post was made to show the sheer numbers of other hunters that are in those units and there are a lot of cow hunters in them in September with rifles. That early cow season was another thing that many people have tried to get the G&F to eliminate in several of the Big Horn units in September, but that hasn't happened as of yet. Now, rather than do that they have come up with this other plan to eliminate the archery hunting possibility for the Type 1, 4 and 5 tags instead from the looks of it.
 
Ok Mike, now I'm really confused. Cow hunting with rifles in September? I see the normal dates for Type 4 and 5 are in Oct. So if these guys buy the bow option (last year) how can a Type 4 and 5 tag hunt in Sept with rifles?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-18 AT 09:56AM (MST)[p]>Ok Mike, now I'm really confused.
> Cow hunting with rifles
>in September? I see
>the normal dates for Type
>4 and 5 are in
>Oct. So if these
>guys buy the bow option
>(last year) how can a
>Type 4 and 5 tag
>hunt in Sept with rifles?
>


I didn't say the Type 4 and 5 tag holders could hunt with a rifle in September Doug. There are 250 45-6 cow tag holders that have a rifle season from 8/15 until 11/30. That is where some of the additional hunters you will see during the September archery season in unit 45 come from. In unit 41 there are 250 Type 6 tag holders, but that unit 41 season for them is 12/1-12/22, so that is where I believe Jeff was questioning me about them hunting in September with an archery permit.
 
Thanks for the explanation Mike! I didn't realize there was yet another hunt Type in Sept. Just so many different hunts in WY that I'm not used to here in CO. Sure seems weird to me they'd eliminate bow hunters but keep rifle hunters mixed with bow hunters in Sept. Seems opposite of what any other Western State that I know of does!
 
>Thanks for the explanation Mike!
>I didn't realize there was
>yet another hunt Type in
>Sept. Just so many
>different hunts in WY that
>I'm not used to here
>in CO. Sure seems
>weird to me they'd eliminate
>bow hunters but keep rifle
>hunters mixed with bow hunters
>in Sept. Seems opposite
>of what any other Western
>State that I know of
>does!

I sure can't disagree with those comments and that's why a lot of archers have tried to have them discontinue the cow rifle hunt in September to no avail. You actually also have to throw in all the guys that drew deer tags for those units that can buy the archery permit and hunt in September too that we haven't mentioned while talking about these elk tags!
 
Mike,
I believe that the 45-6 cow tag is off national forest. So, those archers hunting USFS lands wouldn't be affected by rifle cow hunter on the Sept hunt. I do realize that there is a lot of BLM land in that unit too. I would assume that the elk would still be fairly high in Sept (on national forest) ....unless an early snow hits :)

Don
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-18 AT 04:05PM (MST)[p]>Mike,
>I believe that the 45-6 cow
>tag is off national forest.
> So, those archers hunting
>USFS lands wouldn't be affected
>by rifle cow hunter on
>the Sept hunt. I
>do realize that there is
>a lot of BLM land
>in that unit too.
>I would assume that the
>elk would still be fairly
>high in Sept (on national
>forest) ....unless an early snow
>hits :)
>
>Don

Yes, it's only good off the NF, but FYI there are plenty of elk that are staying down low year around in the BLM in the middle of unit 45 north of Ten Sleep and that's why they issue all the cow tags that are good starting the middle of August. There was actually a herd of about 100 with a couple good bulls in it that were staying right along the highway in an Ag field just outside of town and they were there the middle of September. One day when we went by there a guy on a horse was trying to push them off the field and it was fun to watch them because they would not leave and would just go out and make a big circle around him.

52008p1020916.jpg


86125p1020913.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-18 AT 07:35PM (MST)[p]I miss that hunters day they have there, it was a fun day. Ha and Jordan won that rifle in the raffle.
 
>I miss that hunters day they
>have there, it was a
>fun day. Ha and Jordan
>won that rifle in the
>raffle.


I've never been to it, but as far as I know I believe they held it again the day before deer season opened.
 
The Tentative Regulations have now been up dated and are as of 3/19/18 with the following changes in units 41 and 45:

41-9---Increase of tags from 150 to 175
45-6---Dropped from 250 to 175 tags
45-7---Eliminated completely
45-9---Increase of tags from 175 to 200

No change in the Special Archery Season from the previous 1/22/18 dates with the strikeout still in effect for both units for Type 1, 4, and 5
 
UPDATE: I just spoke with the Wildlife Management Coordinator for the Cody Region and he confirmed that the F&G has listened to public comments and has changed their recommendation to continue to allow the 45-1 tag holders to archery hunt. A final decision will be made by the Commissioners at their April 24th meeting. I asked if the F&G was just looking to delay the proposed change for a year due to the lack of notice to NR hunters or whether the proposed change is dead altogether, and he was somewhat noncommittal and stated that the F&G would review the situation again in the off season. I am thrilled by this news and hope the commissioners follow the revised recommendation. I also have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by how professional and receptive WYoming F&G personnel were to my comments. Thank you to everyone who sent in comments and let's keep our fingers crossed until the commissioners meeting on April 24th.

-Hawkeye-
 
Sounds like good news, hopefully for the long term! Thanks for your efforts and perhaps we can hook up on scouting/hunting there this year!!
 
That is good news for the NRs that already have their tags this year even if they change it before the 2019 application period.
 
With almost 75% support to keep season structures as they are (no choose your weapon) I hope the Dept. puts a stop to the nonsense.

They also need to figure out this early NR elk draw causes more work for G&F employees and problems such as this when regulations change.
 
That has to be a big relief for you Hawkeye and I'm glad it worked out for you and anyone else that was in your shoes!
 
This really is how the process is supposed to work. Hunters recognize a problem, make contacts, and respectfully share their concerns with the Department and Commission.

Problems often times get solved when things are handled in an adult manner, just like what happened in this case.

I know for sure that all the emails and phone calls made a big difference.
 
That is great news! Hopefully they follow the recommendation. Thanks for sharing and thanks for everyone that called and wrote. I wouldn't have thought the calls would sway them to change but I'm glad I listened to you guys. Now back to planning for the archery hunt with rifle as backup plan. Good luck to everyone.
 
I did not get a chance to watch the live stream of the meeting today. Did the commissioners make a final decision on the Unit 45 archery issue?

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-18 AT 05:17PM (MST)[p]>I did not get a chance
>to watch the live stream
>of the meeting today.
>Did the commissioners make a
>final decision on the Unit
>45 archery issue?
>
>-Hawkeye-

Yes, they left it like it was. Good luck Jason!

The comments made all the difference.
 
Jeff-

Thanks again for you help and support. I hope we cross paths in the hills some day!

-Hawkeye-
 
>I did not get a chance
>to watch the live stream
>of the meeting today.
>Did the commissioners make a
>final decision on the Unit
>45 archery issue?
>
>-Hawkeye-

I thought the change was made at the Regional level prior to the season proposals being submitted to the Commission so the Commission did not have to vote on the HA 45-1 archery issue.

Now it will be interesting to see if the proposal is dead or if there will be a media blitz informing hunters of the proposal for 2019.

ClearCreek
 
>I thought the change was made
>at the Regional level prior
>to the season proposals being
>submitted to the Commission so
>the Commission did not have
>to vote on the HA
>45-1 archery issue.
>
>Now it will be interesting to
>see if the proposal is
>dead or if there will
>be a media blitz informing
>hunters of the proposal for
>2019.
>
>ClearCreek

Sent you a PM
 
>Is there anyway of knowing how
>many Type 1 users archery
>hunted in a given year?
>

Nope; no stats like that are kept.
 
>>Is there anyway of knowing how
>>many Type 1 users archery
>>hunted in a given year?
>>
>
>Nope; no stats like that are
>kept.


Did you see a pretty big influx of archery hunters the second half of September when you hunted it? Enough to effect your hunt?
 
>>>Is there anyway of knowing how
>>>many Type 1 users archery
>>>hunted in a given year?
>>>
>>
>>Nope; no stats like that are
>>kept.
>
>
>Did you see a pretty big
>influx of archery hunters the
>second half of September when
>you hunted it? Enough to
>effect your hunt?


There was definitely an influx of hunters on the 14th in certain areas and especially in the established campgrounds north of the highway. It didn't affect our hunt, as we went quite a ways from any roads and 2 tracks while most guys seem to stay fairly close to them.
 

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