Totally stumped on accuracy

ICMDEER

ICMDEER

Long Time Member
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I have a Remington 700 stainless with synthetic stock in 6mm that has alwys been a tack driver. My wife and daughters shoot it and have done very well with this little rifle. I have a Leupold 3X9 by 40 scope on it.

When I first shot it this spring, it was all over. The 5 shot groups are still about 2-2.5 inches. They have always been under 1 MOA.

I've switched powders, powder weights, tried 3 bullets and have made sure the scope is OK. Of course I also checked the bedding and the screws. It's free floated and that is also OK.

This rifle has always been really accurate. What could be the problem? I even thought is was me, but I'm shooting my other rifles OK.

Ideas??
 
I don't know how many shots you've put thru it but I highly suspect copper fouling may be an issue or you may have a scope base or ring screw that's loose. If anybody took a bad spill with the gun you may have an issue with the scope. The first thing I'd do is get a good copper cleaner and give the gun a thorough cleaning and make sure the barrel is clean. Then I'd make sure your rings and bases screw are snug. Hopefully it something minor like this but if you had the gun apart recently you may have something not resting in the same place it was in originally. Over tightened guard or action screws can cause this to happen pretty easily. Hope these ideas help you a bit. Good luck!
 
I'd agree. If it has shot well in the past, there is no reason to change the bullets or their components. After doing all that you've done, either the gun is broken, the barrel "shot out" or it's fouled over and above. About the only possibilities.


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
http://www.paulcousa.com/wipeout.htm

I cant say enough good things about this product... I even brush my teeth with it..


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+1 to the other posts.
After decades of "cleaning" rifles I thought I knew what I was doing. NOT SO!
The accuracy of my 300 Win mag had gradually slipped. No way can I shoot it enough to ruin the barrel because of use.
Randy Brooks of Barnes Bullets told me how to really clean it!
I can't tell you how much better the rifle shot....again!

The other issue could be crown damage. Look for dings or rust. If either is visible have a good gunsmith re-crown the barrel.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Zeke
 
I'd also check the crown of your muzzle. My dad has an old 760 in 6mm that all of a sudden was all over the target. There was a burr on the crown that was causing problems. He had the crown turned down and now it is back under 1 moa.

Nails.
 
I sounds like you have already inspected the stock. My neighbor's 700 had the stock crack at the back of the action and he couldn't get his to shoot until he replaced it. Worth checking I suppose if you did not look at the rear end of the action.
 
Did I miss something? Are Leupolds not any good any more?

Send them my way...

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As you can see from the previous posts there are many possibilities for losing accuracy. You just need to eliminate the possibilities. After you've cleaned your gun, checked the crown, tightened everything down, and eliminated all the simple things, swap scopes. Scopes can and do go bad from time to time. Putting your scope on a gun you know can shoot will tell you if it has a problem. Mounting a scope you know is good onto your gun will tell you if your gun is the problem.
 
+1 to deadibob.
Even though the Leupold brand is well respected, they can fail. We don't see it very often with this excellent brand but it can happen.

Agreed, swap scopes around AFTER you've checked all the "easy fix" possibilities (but swapping out your scope is not tough).
The biggest problem I've seen over the years has been something loose on the gun or scope. I assumed you would have checked this issue so I didn't mention it before. Others have made it obvious that you should check for tightness first.

Lots of great advise, pretty bright people out there trying to help!

Zeke

Again, good luck!
 
I'd pretty much go with what has been posted.

Cleaning fouled barrels is pretty easy with some of the things available on todays market.

I would COMPLETELY tear it down, clean the bore, breech, throat and crown.

When you put it back together, check the rings and mounts for proper torque and spacing.

If you look real close at the crown and find ANY marks that hit lands or grooves, hone them out.....or take it to a competant smith.

There could be a scope issue, but I doubt it. If you do all this and it still won't shoot, send the scope back to Leupold and they will fix it.
 
Thanks guys. I am on track. I've done everything suggested except use BUCKSNORT's fancy wipeout. I'll do that, then go to the scope if I have to.

I've had good luck with Leupold scopes. I have Sawrovski and Leica spotting scopes and binos, but Leupold scopes have always served me well. Sent this one in a few years ago and had new O rings, gas charge and cleaning. It has always been fine, but I can test it/try another as a last resort.

And if I have time or can get to it, I'll check the crown. But honestly, if I have to do that, the wife will shoot one of our 270's this year and be fine. This is not life and death stuff, just trying to figure what could have happened to a good-shooting rifle. Wierd deal; I have not seen one go that quickly before and I've been around rifles for a LONG time.
 
There's something better than wipeout for removing copper. It's called KG 12. I just started using it. There is an independent test on the internet where they took all the top copper removing solvents and put a bullet in them for 24 hours. KG 12 dissolved way more copper than any other copper remover. It's also non-ammonia based.
 
Shoot it at 25 yds. for grouping. If okay go to 50 yds. if it still groups okay move to 100. I use a larger bullseye (orange) approx. 3 inch. I adjust scope power to make the crosshairs cut the bull into quarters. This method keeps me from exagerating my movement during hold so I don't over compensate. That will eliminate possible scope issue w/o removing it. I also use brownells scope ring alignment kit and lapping kit. If you use this kit I also ballistically center the scope adjustments by adjusting all the way one direction to other and half it to center the optic L/R and UP/ DN. I use two piece scope base after having problems once aligning a one piece base and shim the base w/ the lapping kit to center everything as well as possible and start my adjustments from this starting point. That will get you half way there as far as optics. Are you using handloads exclusively or factory also?
maybe crooked neck of brass or worn or binding die w/ case lube build-up non uniform in die. Weigh brass for closest weight tolerance.
 
I had the same thing with my 257 weatherby and it turned out to be the scope (leupold 3x9). Scope was quite old but sent it back and they took care of it.
 
That wipeout may be a good product, but they would sell a ton more if they built a decent website. That one sucks -----.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-10 AT 12:14PM (MST)[p]I have a Rem.788 in 6mm Remington. I experienced the same accuracy problem. I was getting 4" groups at 100 yards. I tried different scopes with no help. Finally RELH told me to clean it, and explained how to go about it. After that it shot great again! About 3/4" groups with factory ammo.

I learned somethig, as I always thought I knew how to clean a rifle. Clean it, clean it again, and then clean it some more.

Edit: After I got my accuracy back I was so happy I gave my stock a custom turtle camo paint job.:)

6041customcamoturtle-010.jpg


Eel
 
Eel;
Hurry up and hide that rifle real quick or Roy will be sneaking around trying to steal it. I like it! a little camo effect with a great personal touch.

RELH
 
From 1" to 2" for a factory gun isn't a really big jump. I would suspect something wrong with the scope of the barrel. The average factory barrel will shoot 1000+ rounds through it before it is "shot" but you may get some imperfections in there due to copper fouling or bullet deformations. Something simple to try would be to have a gunsmith lap the barrel. That would clean up many of the imperfections that could cause your group to get bigger. If you are consistantly shooting 2" groups with it I would bet it's not the scope but something simple with the barrel. It could even be a problem with the bolt face. Close your bolt and wiggle the back. You shouldn't have any play in it. If that's the case, you may have to have the bolt lugs lapped as well and possibly have the chamber resized. Good luck.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
The wife is going to the city tomorrow and she's going to get some cleaners for me. I'll re-clean the heck out of it and keep you guys posted. I've done all of the other suggestions except changing/servicing the scope and I am holding out on that for last. I agree with some of the posts here; I just don't think this is a scope issue. I've been around a long time and have seen lots of problems, but this one has me stumped.

I'll let you know if it is better after the cleanings.

And EEL, that's a sweet looking rifle.
 
ICMDEER;

I do think your problem is excessive copper jacket fouling, and the scope reticle being knocked loose is my second guess.

Do what you plan and clean the heck out of that barrel with a good copper cleaner. Follow the instructions on the cleaner you get and keep running those wet patches of copper cleaner down the barrel until you get no traces of the bluish color on the wet patch or a dry patch after the wet patch.
clean from the chamber end to prevent crown damage and let the copper cleaner soak in for a while before running a dry patch. I prefer to use jags with the patch, but slotted patch holders will also work. You may need a good suppy of patches and you can use a bore bush also between the patches to brush things out. You may get a false reading of a blue color on the first patch from using the bronze bore brush. Just run a second wet patch to confirm if there is still copper deposits in the barrel.
When the patches comes out clean with no signs of a bluish-green color. use a light coat of oil on barrel until you can get to the range to check for groups. Run a dry patch to remove most of the oil and fire one fouling shot then shoot for group.

You may have a rifle that fouls easly, and will require copper fouling cleaning after use to prevent the buildup where you have to spend excessive time on cleaning it.

Let us know what happens and if further followup work is needed if copper fouling is your problem. Fire lapping that barrel may be in the works down the line to improve things for easy cleaning.

RELH
 
You have been given a lot of good posts to check and eliminate every issue possible including switching the scope to another rifle or put a different good scope to that specific rifle. All to see which is the problem....Basically is it the scope or the rifle?

You indicate you checked the scope? Did you send the scope back to the manufacture to be tested? With hunting season around the corner it would be pushing it to get a scope back in a comfortable time period to re-sight the scope in again before hunting season... If you could get the scope back at all before hunting season.

I suggest since you have tried everything suggested. Consider going back to the basics and starting over. Load a powder and bullet you know performs well out of that rifle...drives those tacks..Then find a way to eliminate that scope as the issue. That scope is the weakest piece of your puzzle.

I had a scope one time that gave me fits just like this scope "zero issue" you are experiencing. My scope also seemed ok when in fact it had a internal defect. The recticle on my bad scope would change the zero (the zero would move slightly) due to rifle recoil. Not every shot just when the scope felt like moving the recticle just enough to not group what I knew the rifle could shoot. I would shoot some shots things would seem fine. Then for some reason the insides of that scope would jump just enough to make my groups sloppy 2-3 inches at 100yds. I knew that /06 could drive tacks. The scope was out of warranty so I purchased another scope and never had another problem.

Good Luck
 
I have one additional component that I suggest you checkout if you haven't already verified that your powder measure scale is working perfect. Really to verify your scale is accurate you need to load several on your current scale and then re-measure the powder weight on a seperate scale. See if you can borrow a scale from a friend.

If you are using an older powder measuring scale like the RCBS 10.10. I had one go bad giving inconsistant weight loads. It was off only a few individual grains making it hard to notice as a problem. It sure will effect a tight group.

I did not know how long it had been since you loaded for some of your other rifles. If you loaded a while back before maybe this issue and or a scale gone south? If the issue is the scale it may now effect all you new loads and not just this specific rifle? Just brain storming trying to cover all the bases since we all have been focusing on the specific rifle and scope.
 

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