Time to change Montana's tag system....

[DWBMontana]

With the citizens advisory board for elk hunting continuing to discuss the current status of elk in Montana, I would like to pose a question. Is it time the state of Montana makes a person choose between archery or rifle season? Should this apply to both residents and non residents? If the state did offer only one method of hunting to an individual, should it be limited to NR's, or to residents, or both? If the state of Montana had the two "pools" of hunters, how should the non residents big game allotment of tags be divided?
With the ever increasing number of hunters in the state of Montana, I believe the time has come to address these issues. Personally, as a resident, I believe the non resident would have to choose which season they want to hunt. I would ask for a law to increase the big game combo tags to perhaps 21,000, splitting them 60% rifle, 40% archery. I would however want a person who was unsuccessful archery hunting to have the ability to harvest a cow elk in the late Dec, Jan, and Feb shoulder season. I also would do away with the early shoulder season in August and early Sept, for cow elk, I would propose opening the general elk archery season the same day as archery antelope opens, August 15. Just putting this out there, completely aware others have opinions. Montana is blessed with a growing elk herd, we can discuss how that herd is being managed, but the fact is it is growing in many areas. True, this is not the case in all areas, and the reason for that can be argued for various reasons. But some action is needed I feel. The current system is in my opinion broke.

 

[BuzzH]

I read your post here and I agree that Montana needs to change some things up.

My Family has hunted Montana ever year since the late 1920's with the only break being when my Grandfather was in Europe in the 40's.

I don't believe Montana needs to go to either or in regard to archery and rifle elk tags.

Here is what I would suggest.

Make the Archery deer and elk season the month of September. No more October archery season.

No seasons at all between Oct 1-25 (start of rifle season). That would allow the elk that get pushed onto private during the month of September by archery hunters a chance to move back on public.

Rifle season I would run 5 weeks like it is now. I would cut off the deer season for rifle mule deer about the 5th of November. Allow whitetail harvest until the end of the current Sunday after Thanksgiving.

I would never agree to starting archery elk in August. I've never been in favor of any shoulder seasons.

Also, Montana isn't blessed with a "growing elk herd" in at least 30-40% of the State, including some of the most productive areas of the NW part of the State.

The last Bob Marshall flights I have data for, found a total of 202 observed elk. The Bob was THE place to hunt elk in the 70's-90's...its about the last place I'd even consider hunting elk in Montana. Our family cabin was within about 5 air miles of the Wilderness Boundary and the elk hunting has totally went to crap there.

West of Missoula is even more depressing with the latest flight data I have for unit 202 showing 8...yes EIGHT, observed elk. I hunted that Unit a lot in the 80's and did a lot of work in there as well. We did controlled burns in a significant part of it for elk. The habitat is better now than it was in the 80's, yet there aren't nearly the elk there now. Its not just predation, you can't pound on elk for 11 weeks with non-stop pressure and expect to have elk around.

But, I don't believe that the average Montana hunter is willing to give up anything in regard to season length or choose your weapon.

The legislature in their infinite wisdom, passed legislation to allow a 9 day muzzleloader extension to the end of the general season. So, rather than try to make things better, they've made things worse. It's now going to be general season pressure from September through the 9th of December.

What's even worse, is that many of the gates that are closed during the general season, will be open for over-the-snow vehicles and nothing will be spared.

Its absolutely a shame what Montana has become. The ONLY hunting that is better now than when I started hunting Montana in 1979 is turkey, wolf, and mountain lions. The rest, deer, elk, pronghorn, mountain goat, bighorn sheep, and moose is all wayyyyy worse.

I wish you luck, I've about written Montana off and if not for the tradition of hunting there and being able to hunt with family who still live there...I wouldn't waste my time.

 

[nfh]

Buzz,

First off I don't have an opinion on this matter. I dont hunt or explore montana enough to form an opinion. Where i mule deer hunt no elk population exist but I was very satisfied with the amount of mule deer I saw in 2020.

But on the muzzleloader topic i have seen several articles about this. Did montana pass this for the 2021 season? I been looking through the regs and havent seen anything for it.

 

[DWBMontana]

Interesting comments. Elk are a very adaptive creature. Remember, at one time, they were primarily a plains animal. They were then pushed into the mountains. It seems in many areas they are returning to the plains once again. Not only are they finding safety from two legged predators in those plains, but also from four legged predators also. Private land holdings allows refuge to a lot of these animals, limiting hunting in many cases. The amount of animals and the land they live on in the public sector is limited. By having a non resident choose which season they wish to hunt, boosting permits by law, would allow for increased number of NR's who would be able to participate in elk hunting in Montana, while perhaps keeping NR numbers in check for both the seasons. Montana's population continues to grow, just today, it was announced we will receive an additional Federal house of Representative member soon. I feel having a NR choose the season they wish to hunt is a fair way to allot NR tags, yet keep hunting pressure tolerable in areas of extreme elk pressure, i.e. federal and state lands.
In regards to the additional 9 days of traditional black powder season. I am open to seeing how this works itself out. I seriously doubt that harvest numbers will be effected greatly. It offers a chance for those that want to invest time and money into the traditional BP hunting a short period of time to ply their trade.
The elephant in the room is the fact that most hunting, but in particular elk hunting is big business in Montana, and other states with healthy herds. Like it or not, that is a fact. There have been many society changes in our life times, that makes it easier for people to get out and hunt. Not uncommon for a person in Seattle to fly into Montana in the morning and be hunting where I live on the Milk river that afternoon. A handful of states including Montana are the nations playground when it comes to hunting, in particular big game hunting.
Elk numbers are growing in Montana, perhaps your favorite area as a kid is no longer the premier spot it once was. Nature always runs in cycles, always. But now those old premier areas have been replaced with new premier areas. Is this a bad thing? As I stated previously, elk are adaptive, and will continue to be so.

 

[DWBMontana]

Buzz,

First off I don't have an opinion on this matter. I dont hunt or explore montana enough to form an opinion. Where i mule deer hunt no elk population exist but I was very satisfied with the amount of mule deer I saw in 2020.

But on the muzzleloader topic i have seen several articles about this. Did montana pass this for the 2021 season? I been looking through the regs and havent seen anything for it.

It was passed this spring and our fine Gov. Gianforte signed it into law.

 

[BuzzH]

Interesting comments. Elk are a very adaptive creature. Remember, at one time, they were primarily a plains animal. They were then pushed into the mountains. It seems in many areas they are returning to the plains once again. Not only are they finding safety from two legged predators in those plains, but also from four legged predators also. Private land holdings allows refuge to a lot of these animals, limiting hunting in many cases. The amount of animals and the land they live on in the public sector is limited. By having a non resident choose which season they wish to hunt, boosting permits by law, would allow for increased number of NR's who would be able to participate in elk hunting in Montana, while perhaps keeping NR numbers in check for both the seasons. Montana's population continues to grow, just today, it was announced we will receive an additional Federal house of Representative member soon. I feel having a NR choose the season they wish to hunt is a fair way to allot NR tags, yet keep hunting pressure tolerable in areas of extreme elk pressure, i.e. federal and state lands.
In regards to the additional 9 days of traditional black powder season. I am open to seeing how this works itself out. I seriously doubt that harvest numbers will be effected greatly. It offers a chance for those that want to invest time and money into the traditional BP hunting a short period of time to ply their trade.
The elephant in the room is the fact that most hunting, but in particular elk hunting is big business in Montana, and other states with healthy herds. Like it or not, that is a fact. There have been many society changes in our life times, that makes it easier for people to get out and hunt. Not uncommon for a person in Seattle to fly into Montana in the morning and be hunting where I live on the Milk river that afternoon. A handful of states including Montana are the nations playground when it comes to hunting, in particular big game hunting.
Elk numbers are growing in Montana, perhaps your favorite area as a kid is no longer the premier spot it once was. Nature always runs in cycles, always. But now those old premier areas have been replaced with new premier areas. Is this a bad thing? As I stated previously, elk are adaptive, and will continue to be so.

Lots of word salad...and what you've posted has absolutely jack chit to do with anything, but the needs of people.

Where does wildlife and the proper management of wildlife fit into the picture? It should be ALL we talk about right now and the number one priority.

If you believe that elk numbers are growing in MT, you're drunk on the BS Kool-Ade that the FWP is trying to peddle.

Even IF, and that's a BIG IF, you believe that the elk herds are growing in Montana that would only be the case East of the Continental Divide. The problem with that, is the places where the herds may be growing, is the same place there is chit for public access without paying an outfitter, landowner (lease or for access). Meaning for the average Montana elk hunter, those elk may as well not exist.

It boils down to this, if you're a public land elk hunter in Montana its never been worse. If you're a private land elk hunter with the right access, never been better.

But, elk hunting in Montana is tale of 2 completely different situations. The average guy, of average means, hunting public land West of the divide is spending more time taking his/her rifle for hike than elk hunting.

What we need to focus on is getting elk back on public ground, and using public ground. You can't beat on elk for 11 weeks (now 12) and expect them to stay there. They're going to move or be hanging in someone's garage.

Plus, you didn't mention anything about the fact that elk are being held to objective numbers that are ridiculously low, and per Statute, MUST be hunted to those BS low objectives. In other words, BY LAW, the elk cannot be allowed to "grow". Exactly why they're pounded into oblivion for 6 months of the year.

You're wrong about the muzzleloader season, and IMO, California born Gianforte doesn't know chit from low grade peanut butter about wildlife or even care about wildlife in Montana. If he did, he would have veto'd that POS muzzleloader bill as quick as it hit his desk.

You're not going to convince me that areas where classification flights are finding 8 elk, or where bull to cow ratio's are low single digits, that there is any biological justification for 6 weeks of archery, 5 weeks of rifle, let alone followed by 9 days of muzzleloader season.

I've watched the mismanagement of Montana's wildlife for a long time...and its as pathetic as it is sad.

It's a race to the bottom of the cliff...and this latest legislative session just mashed the accelerator to the floor.

I was just looking over the moose, sheep, and goat regulations getting ready to apply...what an embarrassment in total mismanagement of those species in my 41 years of hunting. People should be fired for it...

 

[idahomuleyhunter]

Lots of word salad...and what you've posted has absolutely jack chit to do with anything, but the needs of people.

Where does wildlife and the proper management of wildlife fit into the picture? It should be ALL we talk about right now and the number one priority.

If you believe that elk numbers are growing in MT, you're drunk on the BS Kool-Ade that the FWP is trying to peddle.

Even IF, and that's a BIG IF, you believe that the elk herds are growing in Montana that would only be the case East of the Continental Divide. The problem with that, is the places where the herds may be growing, is the same place there is chit for public access without paying an outfitter, landowner (lease or for access). Meaning for the average Montana elk hunter, those elk may as well not exist.

It boils down to this, if you're a public land elk hunter in Montana its never been worse. If you're a private land elk hunter with the right access, never been better.

But, elk hunting in Montana is tale of 2 completely different situations. The average guy, of average means, hunting public land West of the divide is spending more time taking his/her rifle for hike than elk hunting.

What we need to focus on is getting elk back on public ground, and using public ground. You can't beat on elk for 11 weeks (now 12) and expect them to stay there. They're going to move or be hanging in someone's garage.

Plus, you didn't mention anything about the fact that elk are being held to objective numbers that are ridiculously low, and per Statute, MUST be hunted to those BS low objectives. In other words, BY LAW, the elk cannot be allowed to "grow". Exactly why they're pounded into oblivion for 6 months of the year.

You're wrong about the muzzleloader season, and IMO, California born Gianforte doesn't know chit from low grade peanut butter about wildlife or even care about wildlife in Montana. If he did, he would have veto'd that POS muzzleloader bill as quick as it hit his desk.

You're not going to convince me that areas where classification flights are finding 8 elk, or where bull to cow ratio's are low single digits, that there is any biological justification for 6 weeks of archery, 5 weeks of rifle, let alone followed by 9 days of muzzleloader season.

I've watched the mismanagement of Montana's wildlife for a long time...and its as pathetic as it is sad.

It's a race to the bottom of the cliff...and this latest legislative session just mashed the accelerator to the floor.

I was just looking over the moose, sheep, and goat regulations getting ready to apply...what an embarrassment in total mismanagement of those species in my 41 years of hunting. People should be fired for it...

Who's going to give up their hunting days to make it happen? I don't know Montana well but I know Idaho and it sounds like the same thing. All "the natives" like me remember the good old days of hunting September thru December, every season every weapon. Problem is, in Idaho and Montana, the dreaded out of staters actually live here now and that's not going to change or reverse.

The obvious answer is less man/days hunted but I'm not sure shorter seasons really achieves that since it's the same number of people pushed into fewer days. I wish I had an answer but the sad truth is there aren't enough elk to fill demand for public land elk hunting and it's doubtful there ever will be.

Accept the Idaho fish and game mantra of "you've got a tag in your pocket so shut up and be happy."

 

[Booner]

Lots of word salad...and what you've posted has absolutely jack chit to do with anything, but the needs of people.

Where does wildlife and the proper management of wildlife fit into the picture? It should be ALL we talk about right now and the number one priority.

If you believe that elk numbers are growing in MT, you're drunk on the BS Kool-Ade that the FWP is trying to peddle.

Even IF, and that's a BIG IF, you believe that the elk herds are growing in Montana that would only be the case East of the Continental Divide. The problem with that, is the places where the herds may be growing, is the same place there is chit for public access without paying an outfitter, landowner (lease or for access). Meaning for the average Montana elk hunter, those elk may as well not exist.

It boils down to this, if you're a public land elk hunter in Montana its never been worse. If you're a private land elk hunter with the right access, never been better.

But, elk hunting in Montana is tale of 2 completely different situations. The average guy, of average means, hunting public land West of the divide is spending more time taking his/her rifle for hike than elk hunting.

What we need to focus on is getting elk back on public ground, and using public ground. You can't beat on elk for 11 weeks (now 12) and expect them to stay there. They're going to move or be hanging in someone's garage.

Plus, you didn't mention anything about the fact that elk are being held to objective numbers that are ridiculously low, and per Statute, MUST be hunted to those BS low objectives. In other words, BY LAW, the elk cannot be allowed to "grow". Exactly why they're pounded into oblivion for 6 months of the year.

You're wrong about the muzzleloader season, and IMO, California born Gianforte doesn't know chit from low grade peanut butter about wildlife or even care about wildlife in Montana. If he did, he would have veto'd that POS muzzleloader bill as quick as it hit his desk.

You're not going to convince me that areas where classification flights are finding 8 elk, or where bull to cow ratio's are low single digits, that there is any biological justification for 6 weeks of archery, 5 weeks of rifle, let alone followed by 9 days of muzzleloader season.

I've watched the mismanagement of Montana's wildlife for a long time...and its as pathetic as it is sad.

It's a race to the bottom of the cliff...and this latest legislative session just mashed the accelerator to the floor.

I was just looking over the moose, sheep, and goat regulations getting ready to apply...what an embarrassment in total mismanagement of those species in my 41 years of hunting. People should be fired for it...

Absolutely great points and totally agree with your thoughts on the downfall of MT hunting, as I am sure most do. Not sure why the fact Gianforte was born in CA has any relevance in your otherwise on-the-mark rant. Is that something he had control over, the location his mother pushed him out when he was 0? Love Gianforte or hate him, it should be based on his record. I thought the Dems were the party of acceptance.

 

[mtmuley]

DWBmakes no other point than wanting more hunters killing elk, mostly on private land. mtmuley

 

[DWBMontana]

Buzzy....it wasn't Gianforte's FWP that was providing elk #'s, it was Bullock's. Could care less about convincing you. Obviously from your other blathers on this and other forums, you have a deep hate for Gianforte. I love how you and your lot has divided hunter, from public vs. private. Well done! As you completely ignored, elk are adaptive, they will continue to do so. An elk, like most animals will stay close to where feed, bedding habitat , winter range and less pressure is allowed, common sense. Private property does provide that in many situations.
I agree, there are less elk on public ground, but why is that? You state it is poor management. Since 2005, the last study the state of Montana did, who controlled the governors office here in Montana? Brian "Nemont Mining" Schweitzer and Steve "appear on Tv" Bullock. Now we have a man who has been very successful in life, and business, yet you choose to chastise him for that success. Class warfare being the in vogue method at the current time for the far left. Once again, well done!
Once last thing...there are a lot of farmers and ranchers here in Montana that have great hunting, true, a small fraction allow no hunting, but most allow quite a bit of hunting, friends, family, business associates, I myself have benefited from this. In life, you get back what you invest in it in so many cases...and just sitting behind a computer screen b!itching about how bad things are probably is not a recipe for success.....

 

[BuzzH]

Absolutely great points and totally agree with your thoughts on the downfall of MT hunting, as I am sure most do. Not sure why the fact Gianforte was born in CA has any relevance in your otherwise on-the-mark rant. Is that something he had control over, the location his mother pushed him out when he was 0? Love Gianforte or hate him, it should be based on his record. I thought the Dems were the party of acceptance.

Couple points here.

Would be nice if Montana would find a candidate that actually did have Montana values. A Montana native that had a deep connection with the land, wildlife, and could do simple things, like read the hunting regulations and comprehend them.

Would be nice if a Governor realized the amount of pressure put on wildlife in Montana and how not slamming the muzzleloader bill with a Veto was a huge mis-step.

Maybe even a Governor that actually put what's best for wildlife in the top 3 of basic decision making.

So far, Gianforte has a pretty dismal record...

 

[BuzzH]

Buzzy....it wasn't Gianforte's FWP that was providing elk #'s, it was Bullock's. Could care less about convincing you. Obviously from your other blathers on this and other forums, you have a deep hate for Gianforte. I love how you and your lot has divided hunter, from public vs. private. Well done! As you completely ignored, elk are adaptive, they will continue to do so. An elk, like most animals will stay close to where feed, bedding habitat , winter range and less pressure is allowed, common sense. Private property does provide that in many situations.
I agree, there are less elk on public ground, but why is that? You state it is poor management. Since 2005, the last study the state of Montana did, who controlled the governors office here in Montana? Brian "Nemont Mining" Schweitzer and Steve "appear on Tv" Bullock. Now we have a man who has been very successful in life, and business, yet you choose to chastise him for that success. Class warfare being the in vogue method at the current time for the far left. Once again, well done!
Once last thing...there are a lot of farmers and ranchers here in Montana that have great hunting, true, a small fraction allow no hunting, but most allow quite a bit of hunting, friends, family, business associates, I myself have benefited from this. In life, you get back what you invest in it in so many cases...and just sitting behind a computer screen b!itching about how bad things are probably is not a recipe for success.....

Word salad again...

I don't hate anybody, including Gianforte, but his record is what it is. You can't claim to care about public lands and public access and then sue the FWP to close a fishing access near your McMansion.

You can't claim to care about wildlife then have multiple hunting violations. You can't claim to care about MT's wildlife resources and then not have the courage to veto bad legislation like the muzzleloader bill.

I chastise nobody for success, but their failures and disregard for wildlife and public lands shouldn't be given a pass either.

Yes, the reason there are less elk on public land is because of management failures, Republican passed legislation (HB34, Debby Barrett R Dillon) dating back long before Schweitzer and Bullock, and if you were paying attention in the 90's you'd realize it. The Montana EMP was a joke in 1992 when Stan Stephens was Governor and only got worse in 2005 when Judy Martz was at the helm.

But, carry on with giving everyone a pass and then coming up with "new" ideas to address an "elk" problem that you now claim doesn't exist.

If you have the connections to good private land elk hunting good for you and why did you make the thread to start with?

You're the one saying the system is broken and want ideas on how to fix it...and I gave a whole host of ways to do it, which you ignored.

The same way that Gianforte is ignoring the real problem, and by his lack of controlling his own party, and lack of fortitude to do what's right, is making the situation in Montana worse.

For the record, Schweitzer was the recipient of my last MT elk tag (that I filled on a mature bull from public land) stapled to a lengthy chitty-gram about the dire situation with elk on public land. I felt guilty for taking that bull as there is NO way that the population warranted me killing that one.

Nobody gets a pass from a me in regard to the lack of over-sight and care given to Montana wildlife's. As you have pointed out with your posts here, Wildlife is not a priority, people are...and that's why Montana wildlife and hunting is circling the drain.

Further, I don't think anybody has the stomach to fix it...least of all those continually given a pass and elected by Montana voters.

 

[beech18]

My biggest complaint I hear about the hunting from other people. Is access. Places where A guy can go is usually hunted to death and loaded with tons of hunters. Seems like every year there’s less and less places to go on private property unless you want to get your checkbook out. The GPS chip is great to know what land your standing on. But it also opened the flood gates to the little hidey holes that no one knew about on some of these smaller blocks of public lands. There’s other grips but that the main one I hear. This is coming from eastern Montana. Each area of the state has its own unique issue.
I do not know the answer (s).

 

[BuzzH]

My biggest complaint I hear about the hunting from other people. Is access. Places where A guy can go is usually hunted to death and loaded with tons of hunters. Seems like every year there’s less and less places to go on private property unless you want to get your checkbook out. The GPS chip is great to know what land your standing on. But it also opened the flood gates to the little hidey holes that no one knew about on some of these smaller blocks of public lands. There’s other grips but that the main one I hear. This is coming from eastern Montana. Each area of the state has its own unique issue.
I do not know the answer (s).

Yes, good post.

But, the thing to keep in mind, if there were elk using the millions of acres of public land, access wouldn't be an issue.

The reason that access is an issue, is because the only elk left are those living and dying on private. The same hunters that have pounded on elk for decades on public, now want access to the private to kill what's left. The answer is to get elk back on public land, and manage elk as the 2 separate situations they are...public land herds, and private land herds.

It floors me that Montana hunters can't do some basic math and think critically about the situation. How can any reasonable person, with 2 firing brain cells, think that the season structure in 2021 should be the EXACT same as when my Dad killed his first deer in 1957? Nothing has changed since 1957? The same number of people are living in Montana? Same amount of habitat? Same quality of habitat? Same number of outfitters? Same number of homes built in wildlife habitat?

Well, apparently the average Montana hunter, politician, and the entire FWP staff and commission must think so...since the seasons have not changed (except to put even MORE pressure on wildlife) since at least 1957.

The wildlife in Montana does not exist because of what we've done to propagate/help it...it exists IN SPITE of what we've done. That's a fact.

 

[DWBMontana]

Word salad again...

I don't hate anybody, including Gianforte, but his record is what it is. You can't claim to care about public lands and public access and then sue the FWP to close a fishing access near your McMansion.

You can't claim to care about wildlife then have multiple hunting violations. You can't claim to care about MT's wildlife resources and then not have the courage to veto bad legislation like the muzzleloader bill.

I chastise nobody for success, but their failures and disregard for wildlife and public lands shouldn't be given a pass either.

Yes, the reason there are less elk on public land is because of management failures, Republican passed legislation (HB34, Debby Barrett R Dillon) dating back long before Schweitzer and Bullock, and if you were paying attention in the 90's you'd realize it. The Montana EMP was a joke in 1992 when Stan Stephens was Governor and only got worse in 2005 when Judy Martz was at the helm.

But, carry on with giving everyone a pass and then coming up with "new" ideas to address an "elk" problem that you now claim doesn't exist.

If you have the connections to good private land elk hunting good for you and why did you make the thread to start with?

You're the one saying the system is broken and want ideas on how to fix it...and I gave a whole host of ways to do it, which you ignored.

The same way that Gianforte is ignoring the real problem, and by his lack of controlling his own party, and lack of fortitude to do what's right, is making the situation in Montana worse.

For the record, Schweitzer was the recipient of my last MT elk tag (that I filled on a mature bull from public land) stapled to a lengthy chitty-gram about the dire situation with elk on public land. I felt guilty for taking that bull as there is NO way that the population warranted me killing that one.

Nobody gets a pass from a me in regard to the lack of over-sight and care given to Montana wildlife's. As you have pointed out with your posts here, Wildlife is not a priority, people are...and that's why Montana wildlife and hunting is circling the drain.

Further, I don't think anybody has the stomach to fix it...least of all those continually given a pass and elected by Montana voters.

Lies.
You have chastised Gianforte before he was elected.
I never said the system was broken, that is on you.
A 9 day late traditional muzzle loader season will not destroy elk hunting here in Montana.

Funny how , 3 months into his administration, Gianforte is failing according to you. So much of what you state is opinion, yours, period. I do not need to justify my contributing to this forum to you, to me, your are some far left loon, who trolls his computer all day espousing that far left agenda daily. I started this thread hoping for a meaningful dialogue between hunters, you immediately started hurling your BS, and insults, immediately. Your not looking for a civilized dialogue, you demand what you think is right. You state falsehoods. You feel your family's long ties to Montana put you above others who were not lucky enough to be born here. If you do not have any positive comments to make, just move along man, your far left ideas don't resonate with me. Thanks God!

 

[BuzzH]

Lies.
You have chastised Gianforte before he was elected.
I never said the system was broken, that is on you.
A 9 day late traditional muzzle loader season will not destroy elk hunting here in Montana.

Funny how , 3 months into his administration, Gianforte is failing according to you. So much of what you state is opinion, yours, period. I do not need to justify my contributing to this forum to you, to me, your are some far left loon, who trolls his computer all day espousing that far left agenda daily. I started this thread hoping for a meaningful dialogue between hunters, you immediately started hurling your BS, and insults, immediately. Your not looking for a civilized dialogue, you demand what you think is right. You state falsehoods. You feel your family's long ties to Montana put you above others who were not lucky enough to be born here. If you do not have any positive comments to make, just move along man, your far left ideas don't resonate with me. Thanks God!

Justify the 9 day muzzleloader season on anything to do with biology...I'll be waiting, because you can't.

I gave you a whole list of things you could do to address the issues with elk management in Montana. Lets recap:


Make the Archery deer and elk season the month of September. No more October archery season.

No seasons at all between Oct 1-25 (start of rifle season). That would allow the elk that get pushed onto private during the month of September by archery hunters a chance to move back on public.

Rifle season I would run 5 weeks like it is now. I would cut off the deer season for rifle mule deer about the 5th of November. Allow whitetail harvest until the end of the current Sunday after Thanksgiving.

I would never agree to starting archery elk in August. I've never been in favor of any shoulder seasons.

What absolutely makes no sense is selling 4k more NR licenses and going to choose your weapon for elk. You aren't addressing anything, only making the problem worse by ramming more hunters into Montana.

Like I said, and you CAN NOT refute...Montana people and who they elect flat don't have the stomach to fix the wildlife mismanagement that's been going on for a long, long time. I'll give you a hint, your ideas will never happen with choose your weapon, an increase of 4K NR tags, or an August 15 general archery elk opener (which would make archery season close to 9 weeks long). Its pretty obvious you don't understand who the major power brokers are that would oppose those ideas. Good luck with those...

I'm not sorry that the facts offend you or that someone stating those facts is so insulting to you. That's on you...

BTW, lies are easy to refute...give it a whirl, if you dare.

 

[idahomuleyhunter]

You guys are missing the point:
https://montanafreepress.org/2021/04/26/montana-grows-into-a-second-u-s-house-seat/

The only reason the are more NR tags is because there are more residents. It's a 10:1 ratio. 4k NR tags means they've sold 40k more resident tags.

Who's going to stand up and say I'll hunt less?

 

[BuzzH]

You guys are missing the point:
https://montanafreepress.org/2021/04/26/montana-grows-into-a-second-u-s-house-seat/

The only reason the are more NR tags is because there are more residents. It's a 10:1 ratio. 4k NR tags means they've sold 40k more resident tags.

Who's going to stand up and say I'll hunt less?

Not following...

The number of Resident tags issued has NOTHING to do with the allocation of NR licenses issued. NR allocations have been the same for a long time...capped at 17K combo, 6,600 deer combo, etc.

There are some NR Native (OTC) and Come-home-to-hunt tags (500 IIRC) that have been added.

 

[idahomuleyhunter]

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the numbers in Montana. But the 10% NR rule is federal law. Perhaps Montana has been over the 10% for some time which might explain why they haven't changed. But that doesn't change your problem. I think 2017 was the first year Montana was oversubscribed on general NR tags, because I was one of the 450 or so left out. It's been worse every year since. The state added 10% to it's population in 10 years, it'll add that(or more) again the next ten years. More hunters plus the same amount of private land means less elk, but everyone wants the other guy to stop showing up. I don't like it either but I don't see how it ever changes. The only answer is we all hunt less.

 

[beech18]

These animals get hammered and pressured months on end, like buzz has stated. I’m for more opportunity but that’s not gonna fix the problem. I do not know the answers but I believe Drastic changes are needed across the board. While most hunters I talk to want better hunting, most are not willing to give up anything either to see it through.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the numbers in Montana. But the 10% NR rule is federal law. Perhaps Montana has been over the 10% for some time which might explain why they haven't changed. But that doesn't change your problem. I think 2017 was the first year Montana was oversubscribed on general NR tags, because I was one of the 450 or so left out. It's been worse every year since. The state added 10% to it's population in 10 years, it'll add that(or more) again the next ten years. More hunters plus the same amount of private land means less elk, but everyone wants the other guy to stop showing up. I don't like it either but I don't see how it ever changes. The only answer is we all hunt less.

What federal law is that?

There is no federal law.

 

[mtmuley]

I know why guys like DWB want more hunters. And it has nothing to do with helping the elk herd in Montana. mtmuley

 

[antlerradar]

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the numbers in Montana. But the 10% NR rule is federal law. Perhaps Montana has been over the 10% for some time which might explain why they haven't changed. But that doesn't change your problem. I think 2017 was the first year Montana was oversubscribed on general NR tags, because I was one of the 450 or so left out. It's been worse every year since. The state added 10% to it's population in 10 years, it'll add that(or more) again the next ten years. More hunters plus the same amount of private land means less elk, but everyone wants the other guy to stop showing up. I don't like it either but I don't see how it ever changes. The only answer is we all hunt less.

Reread Buzz's post. It is correct. The 10% rule only applies to limited entry licenses.

 

[DWBMontana]

Justify the 9 day muzzleloader season on anything to do with biology...I'll be waiting, because you can't.

I gave you a whole list of things you could do to address the issues with elk management in Montana. Lets recap:


Make the Archery deer and elk season the month of September. No more October archery season.

No seasons at all between Oct 1-25 (start of rifle season). That would allow the elk that get pushed onto private during the month of September by archery hunters a chance to move back on public.

Rifle season I would run 5 weeks like it is now. I would cut off the deer season for rifle mule deer about the 5th of November. Allow whitetail harvest until the end of the current Sunday after Thanksgiving.

I would never agree to starting archery elk in August. I've never been in favor of any shoulder seasons.

What absolutely makes no sense is selling 4k more NR licenses and going to choose your weapon for elk. You aren't addressing anything, only making the problem worse by ramming more hunters into Montana.

Like I said, and you CAN NOT refute...Montana people and who they elect flat don't have the stomach to fix the wildlife mismanagement that's been going on for a long, long time. I'll give you a hint, your ideas will never happen with choose your weapon, an increase of 4K NR tags, or an August 15 general archery elk opener (which would make archery season close to 9 weeks long). Its pretty obvious you don't understand who the major power brokers are that would oppose those ideas. Good luck with those...

I'm not sorry that the facts offend you or that someone stating those facts is so insulting to you. That's on you...

BTW, lies are easy to refute...give it a whirl, if you dare.

 

[DWBMontana]

Justify the 9 day muzzleloader season on anything to do with biology...I'll be waiting, because you can't.

I gave you a whole list of things you could do to address the issues with elk management in Montana. Lets recap:


Make the Archery deer and elk season the month of September. No more October archery season.

No seasons at all between Oct 1-25 (start of rifle season). That would allow the elk that get pushed onto private during the month of September by archery hunters a chance to move back on public.

Rifle season I would run 5 weeks like it is now. I would cut off the deer season for rifle mule deer about the 5th of November. Allow whitetail harvest until the end of the current Sunday after Thanksgiving.

I would never agree to starting archery elk in August. I've never been in favor of any shoulder seasons.

What absolutely makes no sense is selling 4k more NR licenses and going to choose your weapon for elk. You aren't addressing anything, only making the problem worse by ramming more hunters into Montana.

Like I said, and you CAN NOT refute...Montana people and who they elect flat don't have the stomach to fix the wildlife mismanagement that's been going on for a long, long time. I'll give you a hint, your ideas will never happen with choose your weapon, an increase of 4K NR tags, or an August 15 general archery elk opener (which would make archery season close to 9 weeks long). Its pretty obvious you don't understand who the major power brokers are that would oppose those ideas. Good luck with those...

I'm not sorry that the facts offend you or that someone stating those facts is so insulting to you. That's on you...

BTW, lies are easy to refute...give it a whirl, if you dare.

 

[DWBMontana]

First , the 9 day black powder season, why must it be justified, to you? To humor your far left soul, I would think being more inclusive that should be right up your progressive alley. Of course, you will state that a ML can be used in the general rifle season, and yes, that is true. But what is wrong with an additional 9 days for ML purist of their own? You seem to think you have a better understanding of numbers then the bureaucrats in Helena, how many elk hunters will hunt this ML season? How many bull elk will be harvested in addition? Let's be honest, I do not know, and you do not know, yet, you attempt to shout from the highest mountain the end of the elk population from such a season.
"If you believe that elk numbers are growing in MT, you're drunk on the BS Kool-Ade that the FWP is trying to peddle". Once again, the same FWP who were run by two democratic administrations for the past 16 years. If you are aware of more factual info, please, by all means share it with us peasants. I am no fan of many aspects of the FWP, but I do know a few biologist here personally, they I believe do have the best interest of our wildlife as their priority, and though I disagree at times with them, I still take with a grain of salt their numbers, it is all we have.
"If you have the connections to good private land elk hunting good for you and why did you make the thread to start with?" Just because myself or someone hunts private land, we should keep quiet when it comes to our wildlife? Really? Idiotic statement.
"You're wrong about the muzzleloader season, and IMO, California born Gianforte doesn't know chit from low grade peanut butter about wildlife or even care about wildlife in Montana. If he did, he would have veto'd that POS muzzleloader bill as quick as it hit his desk." Not chastising? Maybe your a little full of yourself there man.
"It's a race to the bottom of the cliff...and this latest legislative session just mashed the accelerator to the floor". The only race that is running is your race into the bottom of the cesspool .....

 

[BuzzH]

First , the 9 day black powder season, why must it be justified, to you? To humor your far left soul, I would think being more inclusive that should be right up your progressive alley. Of course, you will state that a ML can be used in the general rifle season, and yes, that is true. But what is wrong with an additional 9 days for ML purist of their own? You seem to think you have a better understanding of numbers then the bureaucrats in Helena, how many elk hunters will hunt this ML season? How many bull elk will be harvested in addition? Let's be honest, I do not know, and you do not know, yet, you attempt to shout from the highest mountain the end of the elk population from such a season.
"If you believe that elk numbers are growing in MT, you're drunk on the BS Kool-Ade that the FWP is trying to peddle". Once again, the same FWP who were run by two democratic administrations for the past 16 years. If you are aware of more factual info, please, by all means share it with us peasants. I am no fan of many aspects of the FWP, but I do know a few biologist here personally, they I believe do have the best interest of our wildlife as their priority, and though I disagree at times with them, I still take with a grain of salt their numbers, it is all we have.
"If you have the connections to good private land elk hunting good for you and why did you make the thread to start with?" Just because myself or someone hunts private land, we should keep quiet when it comes to our wildlife? Really? Idiotic statement.
"You're wrong about the muzzleloader season, and IMO, California born Gianforte doesn't know chit from low grade peanut butter about wildlife or even care about wildlife in Montana. If he did, he would have veto'd that POS muzzleloader bill as quick as it hit his desk." Not chastising? Maybe your a little full of yourself there man.
"It's a race to the bottom of the cliff...and this latest legislative session just mashed the accelerator to the floor". The only race that is running is your race into the bottom of the cesspool .....

I didn't ask you to justify the extra 9 days of the newest, dumb idea brought forward, passed, signed and approved by the Governor in regard to "opportunity" for people. What units have too high of a bull to cow ratio, in general tag units, that they need MORE bulls shot? What biological reason do we have to pound on mule deer bucks, whitetail bucks clear into December?

I asked to show me some biological reason to defend it. You know, with something in regard to herd health, or because deer and elk are so over-populated in Montana that we must expand the season to address it.

Once again, this has NOTHING to do with a biological need, its 100% about appeasing some whiners who can't just seem to get it done with a muzzleloader during the current 5 week season. Apply even more pressure to an already over-utilized resource.

You can defend the Department all you want but I'm not going to. Read the population estimates report, read the harvest reports and compare. Learn how they arrive at said numbers, you know educate yourself.

They aren't my numbers, but it doesn't take much common sense to look at a population estimate, their calculated bull to cow ratios and then compare to harvest.

When you can tell me, for one of the areas I hunt, how their data says they have 8 bulls per 100 cows, claim they have 1000 elk (meaning 80 bulls), and a bull harvest of over 90 bulls...

How does that math work? Last I checked, its pretty tough to kill 90 out of a herd of 80...I suspect most 4th graders would come to the same realization in their math classes as well.

Even if you say, well, they must only be killing 80 then...its proper management to kill every available legal bull you have from year to year?

BTW, how are single digit bull to cow ratio units still even allowed to be open for 11 weeks of general tag OTC elk hunting justifiable?

You think good management has resulted in 1 goat tag issued in the Bitterroot, when in 1979-1985 when I first applied there they issued 75 a year?

Do you think shoulder seasons were a good idea, when 94% of the comments the FWP received were in opposition?

Do you think its right they added a bunch shoulder seasons before they even had a chance to "look at the data from the pilot areas they wanted to try them in"? You think flat-ass lying to the public and hunters is just fine?

Do you think its right the FWP ignores page 55 of the EMP that gives them elk management flexibility, in every single hunting unit in Montana but one?

The FWP is complicit in what's happened and you can talk until you're blue in the face defending them if you want. There is no excuse for what they have, and have not done in regard to the publics wildlife assets.

They also have forgotten, long ago, to put wildlife at the top of the priority list. It doesn't shock me at all to find ourselves where we're at. Management, or lack-there-of has consequences...

 

[BuzzH]

Reread Buzz's post. It is correct. The 10% rule only applies to limited entry licenses.

Right, and it's "UP TO 10%", but assured none.

 

[Togwotee]

Hate to say it but whenever Buzz isn't hugging a wolf or trying to pour the pork to NR hunters in WY he's usually right.

 

[mtmuley]

DWB is getting a spanking so he needs to turn it into a political peeing match. The guy has a hunting club. All those extra hunters will be hammering cows on his lease during the shoulder season. Sometimes two elk as those cows were bred in September. All about money. He could give a $hit less about anyhunters except ones that pay. mtmuley

 

[DWBMontana]

I didn't ask you to justify the extra 9 days of the newest, dumb idea brought forward, passed, signed and approved by the Governor in regard to "opportunity" for people. What units have too high of a bull to cow ratio, in general tag units, that they need MORE bulls shot? What biological reason do we have to pound on mule deer bucks, whitetail bucks clear into December?

I asked to show me some biological reason to defend it. You know, with something in regard to herd health, or because deer and elk are so over-populated in Montana that we must expand the season to address it.

Once again, this has NOTHING to do with a biological need, its 100% about appeasing some whiners who can't just seem to get it done with a muzzleloader during the current 5 week season. Apply even more pressure to an already over-utilized resource.

You can defend the Department all you want but I'm not going to. Read the population estimates report, read the harvest reports and compare. Learn how they arrive at said numbers, you know educate yourself.

They aren't my numbers, but it doesn't take much common sense to look at a population estimate, their calculated bull to cow ratios and then compare to harvest.

When you can tell me, for one of the areas I hunt, how their data says they have 8 bulls per 100 cows, claim they have 1000 elk (meaning 80 bulls), and a bull harvest of over 90 bulls...

How does that math work? Last I checked, its pretty tough to kill 90 out of a herd of 80...I suspect most 4th graders would come to the same realization in their math classes as well.

Even if you say, well, they must only be killing 80 then...its proper management to kill every available legal bull you have from year to year?

BTW, how are single digit bull to cow ratio units still even allowed to be open for 11 weeks of general tag OTC elk hunting justifiable?

You think good management has resulted in 1 goat tag issued in the Bitterroot, when in 1979-1985 when I first applied there they issued 75 a year?

Do you think shoulder seasons were a good idea, when 94% of the comments the FWP received were in opposition?

Do you think its right they added a bunch shoulder seasons before they even had a chance to "look at the data from the pilot areas they wanted to try them in"? You think flat-ass lying to the public and hunters is just fine?

Do you think its right the FWP ignores page 55 of the EMP that gives them elk management flexibility, in every single hunting unit in Montana but one?

The FWP is complicit in what's happened and you can talk until you're blue in the face defending them if you want. There is no excuse for what they have, and have not done in regard to the publics wildlife assets.

They also have forgotten, long ago, to put wildlife at the top of the priority list. It doesn't shock me at all to find ourselves where we're at. Management, or lack-there-of has consequences...

So, I am defending the FWP? Wow, you are unhinged. You need to re read what I posted. As I stated prior, if you have more accurate numbers please provide them, please!
One questions for you.....when Lewis and Clark explored the west, where did they mention seeing elk? I would answer "The plains". As I stated, elk have shown to be highly adaptable, and that continues to this day, you may not like the results, but it is occurring. I know of two distinct HD's here in Montana that elk were few are far between prior to the turn of the last century, 2000, today, there are literally hundreds of elk in each of these HD's. Why are we seeing this increase in HD's that previously held little if any elk? In those HD's you mentioned earlier with falling numbers, why the decrease? Hunting pressure, i.e. increased human activity? Predators? Poor forest management? Poor herd management? Likely all of these plus other concerns. I am not attempting to pick a fight, but will be damn if you put words in my mouth, or claim I have no interest in the wildlife of my home state merely because I hunt primarily private ground. If it were not for agriculture in this country, wildlife numbers for all to many species would be no where near what they are today.

 

[BuzzH]

So, I am defending the FWP? Wow, you are unhinged. You need to re read what I posted. As I stated prior, if you have more accurate numbers please provide them, please!
One questions for you.....when Lewis and Clark explored the west, where did they mention seeing elk? I would answer "The plains". As I stated, elk have shown to be highly adaptable, and that continues to this day, you may not like the results, but it is occurring. I know of two distinct HD's here in Montana that elk were few are far between prior to the turn of the last century, 2000, today, there are literally hundreds of elk in each of these HD's. Why are we seeing this increase in HD's that previously held little if any elk? In those HD's you mentioned earlier with falling numbers, why the decrease? Hunting pressure, i.e. increased human activity? Predators? Poor forest management? Poor herd management? Likely all of these plus other concerns. I am not attempting to pick a fight, but will be damn if you put words in my mouth, or claim I have no interest in the wildlife of my home state merely because I hunt primarily private ground. If it were not for agriculture in this country, wildlife numbers for all to many species would be no where near what they are today.

I already have provided the numbers...

You've been led to water.

 

[Ultimag]

Hate to say it but whenever Buzz isn't hugging a wolf or trying to pour the pork to NR hunters in WY he's usually right.

He defineately doesn't sugar Coat ****
He gives,you a,real hard reality check backed by facts
After reading many of his post on here and HT I now realize he truely truely cares about the resource and I apoligise for the very rude,comments I've made,toward,him in the past
His,comments thoughts and suggestions,come from decades,of hands on experience.both as,an outdoorsman &,working on committees,in both wy & MT Those that,disagree with him do so because,they dont like truth and that is what buzz, speaks

 

[BuzzH]

DWBMontana,

So a couple questions about your "proposals".

First of all, what problem(s) are you trying to fix?
What I'm gathering is that you feel there aren't enough hunters in Montana, and that we need to extend archery season another 15-18 days via an August 15 opener, and either NR, R, or both need to choose a weapon. Montana should also make the Archery tags if they were issued as archery only, valid for rifle hunting during the shoulder seasons. NR hunters should increase from the current 17k, to 21k and the splits should be 60% rifle and 40% archery.

That's what I believe you said.

What's the reason for the August 15 elk opener? Why is 6 weeks not enough. What biological reason do you have to support nearly 3 full weeks of additional pressure on elk?

Why the need for hunters to "choose" their weapon? How would that increase elk numbers?

Why would Montana want to split the Rifle/Bow tags under an either or season structure 60% rifle and 40% bow? What percentage of the 17,000 NR tags issued now are only being hunted by Rifle, Bow, and what percentage are hunting with both? How about the Residents, are a full 40% of the OTC elk tags only being hunted with archery equipment?

Apparently you must feel I fell off the turnip truck yesterday...I know what your motivation is.

You have NR "friends" that aren't drawing one of the 17k NR elk tags, so you want 21k issued. You also want to increase their likelihood of drawing even more, so make 40% of those 21k archery only. That will ensure that you and your NR buddies that help pay for your elk lease have a tag every year, and a reason to continue to pay for the lease. It will also give them the option to help "manage", you're supposed over populated elk by whacking a cow during a shoulder season with a rifle. Except you don't like those cows being shot in August because it might screw up your archery elk hunting on the center pivot. But, once your done hunting bulls, then its fine to allow the guys with archery tags to pound a cow until mid February to manage this supposed overpopulation of elk.

Those things are NOT about what's best for the resource. Its not about setting sensible quota's based on the bull to cow ratio's, overall elk populations, or anything else to do with biology or science based management. Your plan would make elk hunting worse for the average, public land elk hunter. We don't need another 4k hunters in the field for 13-14 weeks a year like you're proposing.

Its a "plan" to ensure you and your NR friends get to archery elk hunt bull elk every year, starting in August, to justify the lease fees.

Been at this too long to not see what the motive is...

 

[Ultimag]

Its a plan to make,sure his non resident butt buddies are,able to keep paying his lease fees,for him

 

[Ultimag]

feel. The current system is in my opinion broke.

Lies.
I never said the system was broken, that is on you.

Ummmmm WHOS,THE,one telling lies,????
With your very first post and very last sentence but you yet you accuse buzz of lying
Let me guess,you didnt type that your account got hacked ?

 

[SPAZ]

DWBMontana- Not a single lie by Buzz.

 

[DWBMontana]

DWBMontana,

So a couple questions about your "proposals".

First of all, what problem(s) are you trying to fix?
What I'm gathering is that you feel there aren't enough hunters in Montana, and that we need to extend archery season another 15-18 days via an August 15 opener, and either NR, R, or both need to choose a weapon. Montana should also make the Archery tags if they were issued as archery only, valid for rifle hunting during the shoulder seasons. NR hunters should increase from the current 17k, to 21k and the splits should be 60% rifle and 40% archery.

That's what I believe you said.

What's the reason for the August 15 elk opener? Why is 6 weeks not enough. What biological reason do you have to support nearly 3 full weeks of additional pressure on elk?

Why the need for hunters to "choose" their weapon? How would that increase elk numbers?

Why would Montana want to split the Rifle/Bow tags under an either or season structure 60% rifle and 40% bow? What percentage of the 17,000 NR tags issued now are only being hunted by Rifle, Bow, and what percentage are hunting with both? How about the Residents, are a full 40% of the OTC elk tags only being hunted with archery equipment?

Apparently you must feel I fell off the turnip truck yesterday...I know what your motivation is.

You have NR "friends" that aren't drawing one of the 17k NR elk tags, so you want 21k issued. You also want to increase their likelihood of drawing even more, so make 40% of those 21k archery only. That will ensure that you and your NR buddies that help pay for your elk lease have a tag every year, and a reason to continue to pay for the lease. It will also give them the option to help "manage", you're supposed over populated elk by whacking a cow during a shoulder season with a rifle. Except you don't like those cows being shot in August because it might screw up your archery elk hunting on the center pivot. But, once your done hunting bulls, then its fine to allow the guys with archery tags to pound a cow until mid February to manage this supposed overpopulation of elk.

Those things are NOT about what's best for the resource. Its not about setting sensible quota's based on the bull to cow ratio's, overall elk populations, or anything else to do with biology or science based management. Your plan would make elk hunting worse for the average, public land elk hunter. We don't need another 4k hunters in the field for 13-14 weeks a year like you're proposing.

Its a "plan" to ensure you and your NR friends get to archery elk hunt bull elk every year, starting in August, to justify the lease fees.

Been at this too long to not see what the motive is...

 

[DWBMontana]

So, what is the population of Montana's elk herd? What is the best educated guest we have? I figured the state agency tasked with that job would be the best, but since you know so much more then me...or them, what is it?
So, as just a blue collar guy, no fancy degree's hanging in my office, I will ask this....if we, the state of Montana, have areas with ever decreasing elk numbers, and other areas of the state with ever increasing numbers, if the purpose is to increase numbers in those declining areas, shouldn't we look at the causes of both? What, in your opinion is driving the decline in "the Bob" and areas west of Missoula? What is driving increase of elk in much of eastern Montana?

 

[DWBMontana]

DWBMontana- Not a single lie by Buzz.

Hmm...your thought process is concerning, thanks for your input.

 

[SPAZ]

Where'd you move to MT from and when?

 

[mtmuley]

I bet deedubya has me on ignore. I pegged him a long time ago. mtmuley

 

[SPAZ]

Stereotyping is bad they say - but it sure is a timesaver.

 

[DWBMontana]

Yes, buzzy, I lease ground here in Montana, and I do enjoy sharing it with family and friends from out of state. Not all people are lucky enough to have been born here. Not sure shy you and others have such a problem with it, our money, our business. Nunya. Jealous?
I wish the legislature in Montana would provide landowners with some tags, was disappointed to see 505 tabled. But, with all the jealousy that you and your ilk create private land hunting vs public land hunting, it's no surprise. Hell, what else should I expect from a is it now for

Where'd you move to MT from and when?

2006, Nebraska.

 

[DWBMontana]

Stereotyping is bad they say - but it sure is a timesaver.

Look in the mirror boy, look in the mirror.

 

[DWBMontana]

Curious Buzz, why is increasing elk numbers on private ground a bad thing? You seemed to be fine with bison on private land...a quote from you on another forum regarding the APR here in NE Montana...."I'll say one thing about apr...Gila was/is full of crap. Best thing to happen to the breaks is apr buying up those ranches, no doubt in my mind."....Save the cowboy!.....funny how people that live in...i will use one of your words, "chit" holes think places here in Montana need saving....LMAO....perhaps those 1% should save the cities of Seattle , SF, LA, Portland, Chicago, Portland , or maybe save the coast of Cali or Nantucket from all those private enclaves they have built up..... before they try destroying our way of life. Of course, the APR is allowing public hunting....oh yippee. There will be idiots who buy into what they are selling, but they are just using hunters to gain support while they need it, they will be cast off as soon as they don't, my assumption, something you enjoy doing.

 

[BuzzH]

Curious Buzz, why is increasing elk numbers on private ground a bad thing? You seemed to be fine with bison on private land...a quote from you on another forum regarding the APR here in NE Montana...."I'll say one thing about apr...Gila was/is full of crap. Best thing to happen to the breaks is apr buying up those ranches, no doubt in my mind."....Save the cowboy!.....funny how people that live in...i will use one of your words, "chit" holes think places here in Montana need saving....LMAO....perhaps those 1% should save the cities of Seattle , SF, LA, Portland, Chicago, Portland , or maybe save the coast of Cali or Nantucket from all those private enclaves they have built up..... before they try destroying our way of life. Of course, the APR is allowing public hunting....oh yippee. There will be idiots who buy into what they are selling, but they are just using hunters to gain support while they need it, they will be cast off as soon as they don't, my assumption, something you enjoy doing.

I'm not against more elk on private, where did I say that? Hint: I didn't.

I'm all about private property rights and people having all the elk and other wildlife they want on their private property. Ted Turner does a fantastic job on his private with wildlife...even WANTS threatened and endangered species on his land.

I also support APR in theory and with my checkbook...like I said, best thing to happen to NE Montana and the Breaks ever. I am fine with APR having bison on their property, no different than another ranch choosing to have cattle. Under Montana Statute, both are classified as livestock. What problem do you have with ranchers choosing the livestock they choose to have on their property?

I didn't say Montana need to be "saved", but I'll support the APR buying property, where they have shown over and over again that they support public access, over a place that leases rights to only a few individuals. But, I have no grievance if people choose to lease hunting rights. Willing seller willing buyer and all that, combined with my support of private property rights.

I just wish that others would show the same level of respect for the property rights of APR and their right to purchase property. As well as their right to give public access to their property as well as surrounding public where they increase access for the public. Not real sure why its a one way street?

Finally, all I know is that APR has afforded me and my family, who are just average hunters, many good days of hunting on their property free of charge. And, they've also allowed increased access to many more acres of public land that was formerly landlocked.

Not sure what dragging any of this into the discussion has to do with your OP, but these threads tend to wander and you asked the questions.

 

[BuzzH]

Yes, buzzy, I lease ground here in Montana, and I do enjoy sharing it with family and friends from out of state. Not all people are lucky enough to have been born here. Not sure shy you and others have such a problem with it, our money, our business. Nunya. Jealous?
I wish the legislature in Montana would provide landowners with some tags, was disappointed to see 505 tabled. But, with all the jealousy that you and your ilk create private land hunting vs public land hunting, it's no surprise. Hell, what else should I expect from a is it now for

2006, Nebraska.

I have no grievance with you leasing, its a fundamental right of private property ownership.

But, wildlife is a public asset held in trust by the residents of Montana. As such, I will have a say in the management of that public asset. Including slamming the brakes on giving it away to private landowners via chit legislation like 505. I would suggest if you want to control the land and the wildlife, Texas is the state you're looking for. Not how things are done in Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, or most the rest of the world in regard to the way wildlife is held in trust for the Citizens of the State it resides in.

That includes doing what's best for the resource to benefit everyone, not just private landowners, outfitters, or guys that lease property.

It also speaks to why you're asking for the changes, I get it. Has nothing to do with looking out for the resource, hunters as a group, etc.

Its for selfish reasons, to benefit you...with not a concern for anyone but yourself. That wasn't hard to figure out from your first post. Anyone that tries to tell me that Montana issues too few elk tags, or that there isn't currently more than enough opportunity, is not going to get my support.

The wildlife if Montana does not need more pressure put on it. Montana does not need to give out another 4k NR combo tags. Montana does not need to start archery elk hunting in August. Montana does not need shoulder seasons.

 

[beech18]

Buzz or who ever knows the answer. Serious question. When you read or hear the fwp say a certain hunt district is at objective, over or under objective numbers. How do they come up with what is the “objective” number? I often wondered but never asked before now.

 

[DWBMontana]

I have no grievance with you leasing, its a fundamental right of private property ownership.

But, wildlife is a public asset held in trust by the residents of Montana. As such, I will have a say in the management of that public asset. Including slamming the brakes on giving it away to private landowners via chit legislation like 505. I would suggest if you want to control the land and the wildlife, Texas is the state you're looking for. Not how things are done in Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, or most the rest of the world in regard to the way wildlife is held in trust for the Citizens of the State it resides in.

That includes doing what's best for the resource to benefit everyone, not just private landowners, outfitters, or guys that lease property.

It also speaks to why you're asking for the changes, I get it. Has nothing to do with looking out for the resource, hunters as a group, etc.

Its for selfish reasons, to benefit you...with not a concern for anyone but yourself. That wasn't hard to figure out from your first post. Anyone that tries to tell me that Montana issues too few elk tags, or that there isn't currently more than enough opportunity, is not going to get my support.

The wildlife if Montana does not need more pressure put on it. Montana does not need to give out another 4k NR combo tags. Montana does not need to start archery elk hunting in August. Montana does not need shoulder seasons.

Your are in Wyoming, LOL. I pay taxes here, live here, support local community here. Why you feel giving landowners a place at the table is something I do not comprehend. As stated prior, if it weren't for agriculture, game numbers all across this country would not be where they are. I merely posted my thoughts...you immediately injected venom into the discussion. You chastise our governor. You have failed over and over to answer questions I have asked, coward. So, before continuing this .....answer these questions, that I asked prior. Strange how you on the left always preach about being inclusive, yet want me thrown out of a state I love because I don't embrace your ideas.
1. What is the current population of Elk in Montana? FWP figures are a joke you say, I am waiting.......
2. How have elk shown there propensity to adapt over the years?
3. How has forest miss management effected elk numbers on NF land? That one hits close to home I am sure.

I am not a selfish person by any means, if you wish to compare biography's and charitable giving, I am up for that... you want to push elk back up to your family's place near the Bob Marshall.....selfish?
Where did I show support for the shoulder season?
505 was written poorly, I agree. The premise has merit , landowners should have some skin in the game, as I stated prior, elk are big business. Farming and ranching is hard, contrary to what many people think. I see personally the struggles of many family and friends involved in agriculture. You have watched to many episodes of "yellowstone" for your ideal of Montana ranching....Elk by law are property of the state of Montana, thus the people of this state. Ranchers and farmers are those people.
As for telling me to move to Texas, I could say the same to you as far as NY, Illinois, California....I am not into high fence, stocked farms. Not a big fan of goat roper's honestly....Husker Red, till I'm dead little guy.....perhaps we should agree to disagree...we can always meet for a beer, I am open to it, let me know when your back up here in Montana.....we can see if your as chatty in person as you are on here......

 

[DWBMontana]

I'm not against more elk on private, where did I say that? Hint: I didn't.

I'm all about private property rights and people having all the elk and other wildlife they want on their private property. Ted Turner does a fantastic job on his private with wildlife...even WANTS threatened and endangered species on his land.

I also support APR in theory and with my checkbook...like I said, best thing to happen to NE Montana and the Breaks ever. I am fine with APR having bison on their property, no different than another ranch choosing to have cattle. Under Montana Statute, both are classified as livestock. What problem do you have with ranchers choosing the livestock they choose to have on their property?

I didn't say Montana need to be "saved", but I'll support the APR buying property, where they have shown over and over again that they support public access, over a place that leases rights to only a few individuals. But, I have no grievance if people choose to lease hunting rights. Willing seller willing buyer and all that, combined with my support of private property rights.

I just wish that others would show the same level of respect for the property rights of APR and their right to purchase property. As well as their right to give public access to their property as well as surrounding public where they increase access for the public. Not real sure why its a one way street?

Finally, all I know is that APR has afforded me and my family, who are just average hunters, many good days of hunting on their property free of charge. And, they've also allowed increased access to many more acres of public land that was formerly landlocked.

Not sure what dragging any of this into the discussion has to do with your OP, but these threads tend to wander and you asked the questions.

I'm not against more elk on private, where did I say that? Hint: I didn't.

I'm all about private property rights and people having all the elk and other wildlife they want on their private property. Ted Turner does a fantastic job on his private with wildlife...even WANTS threatened and endangered species on his land.

I also support APR in theory and with my checkbook...like I said, best thing to happen to NE Montana and the Breaks ever. I am fine with APR having bison on their property, no different than another ranch choosing to have cattle. Under Montana Statute, both are classified as livestock. What problem do you have with ranchers choosing the livestock they choose to have on their property?

I didn't say Montana need to be "saved", but I'll support the APR buying property, where they have shown over and over again that they support public access, over a place that leases rights to only a few individuals. But, I have no grievance if people choose to lease hunting rights. Willing seller willing buyer and all that, combined with my support of private property rights.

I just wish that others would show the same level of respect for the property rights of APR and their right to purchase property. As well as their right to give public access to their property as well as surrounding public where they increase access for the public. Not real sure why its a one way street?

Finally, all I know is that APR has afforded me and my family, who are just average hunters, many good days of hunting on their property free of charge. And, they've also allowed increased access to many more acres of public land that was formerly landlocked.

Not sure what dragging any of this into the discussion has to do with your OP, but these threads tend to wander and you asked the questions.

You mentioned "Montana Values" in one of your earlier diatribes....good to see you siding with far left Billionaires from out of state with those...."Montana Values"...LMAO. But they allow public access....for now....who is the selfish one???

 

[BuzzH]

You mentioned "Montana Values" in one of your earlier diatribes....good to see you siding with far left Billionaires from out of state with those...."Montana Values"...LMAO. But they allow public access....for now....who is the selfish one???

Let me explain things simply to you, since you're all over the map.

Property owners in Montana are free to sell their land to whomever they want. APR, Turner, Wilkes Bro's, whatever.

I'm fully in support of all of them purchasing property and managing it within the law, how they see fit.

Not sure how you spin that to a "far left" ideal. Its an American ideal, that Billionaires of all political affiliation, really all Americans, support. What I DO NOT support, is legislation like that attempted by that Douche Bag out of Lewistown, Dan Bartel (R) introduced this session, that attempted to take away property rights. A private individual should be allowed to sell to any willing buyer they choose, its none of Bartel's G-damn business, period.

If I want to sell my private land to a group of Hippies that's my choice. Or if I want to sell to a non-profit, that's my choice and my business. If I want to sell it to the neighbor, that's my choice.

Private property rights absolutely are a Montana Value and the only point I'm seeing in regard to your post, is the one a-top your noggin'...

Any other American Values you don't like?

 

[BuzzH]

Your are in Wyoming, LOL. I pay taxes here, live here, support local community here. Why you feel giving landowners a place at the table is something I do not comprehend. As stated prior, if it weren't for agriculture, game numbers all across this country would not be where they are. I merely posted my thoughts...you immediately injected venom into the discussion. You chastise our governor. You have failed over and over to answer questions I have asked, coward. So, before continuing this .....answer these questions, that I asked prior. Strange how you on the left always preach about being inclusive, yet want me thrown out of a state I love because I don't embrace your ideas.
1. What is the current population of Elk in Montana? FWP figures are a joke you say, I am waiting.......
2. How have elk shown there propensity to adapt over the years?
3. How has forest miss management effected elk numbers on NF land? That one hits close to home I am sure.

I am not a selfish person by any means, if you wish to compare biography's and charitable giving, I am up for that... you want to push elk back up to your family's place near the Bob Marshall.....selfish?
Where did I show support for the shoulder season?
505 was written poorly, I agree. The premise has merit , landowners should have some skin in the game, as I stated prior, elk are big business. Farming and ranching is hard, contrary to what many people think. I see personally the struggles of many family and friends involved in agriculture. You have watched to many episodes of "yellowstone" for your ideal of Montana ranching....Elk by law are property of the state of Montana, thus the people of this state. Ranchers and farmers are those people.
As for telling me to move to Texas, I could say the same to you as far as NY, Illinois, California....I am not into high fence, stocked farms. Not a big fan of goat roper's honestly....Husker Red, till I'm dead little guy.....perhaps we should agree to disagree...we can always meet for a beer, I am open to it, let me know when your back up here in Montana.....we can see if your as chatty in person as you are on here......

I'm really not sure where to start.

I also paid taxes in Montana for 30 years, my family for over 121 years. Not sure why that seems important to you.

Game numbers would not be what they are if not for the forward thinking of Sportsmen and Conservation minded people that came before us. Landowners are not all created equally, some are awesome stewards and partners, some would rather that all wildlife that compete with their livestock be killed off. But, if you've ever bothered to study conservation, it was driven by Sportsmen...from early game laws, to various Acts of Congress (think PR, DJ, LWCF, etc). Even in regard to wildlife being a consideration under NFMA, RPA, RMP's, etc. etc. that was all work of the Sportsmen. The heavy lifting to get these considerations of wildlife, as well as the funding was the work of Sportsmen...its all there, black and white, crystal clear.

Not sure where you got I want you or anyone else thrown out of Montana. I never said it, implied it, or have given it any thought. I think you need a shrink, hooked on phonics, or perhaps both. Free country, live in the State of your choice.

Your questions about elk populations in Montana...I'm not a secretary, I'm a Biological Scientist/Forester by trade. We live in the information age, and the answer is easier to find than you typing out the question...literally.

Elk are adaptable...I don't believe anyone said otherwise that I'm aware of. But, what they never adapt to is 11 weeks of arrows and bullets being run through them (6 months if you're a cow), with 17k NR's and unlimited number of Resident general tags, as well as OTC B-tags. Pretty tough to adapt to a bullet or arrow through your chest, wouldn't you agree?

I believe that in some cases, yes National Forest lands, as well as many private lands, State lands, and other Federal lands are not managed to benefit elk and other wildlife. Different mandates on all of it, different management considerations, etc.

However, specific to the Interior West in the 8 States I work(ed) in, the habitat for wildlife is in pretty good shape for the most part. From a vegetation standpoint and over-all habitat standpoint, I would argue that there is better plant diversity, better quality feed, more mosaic habitat on the Lolo National Forest in Montana, than the Coconino in Arizona. There are many areas in other states, in functionally worse shape from a habitat stand point of habitat quality than Montana, yet have more elk. Again I would say the Lolo NF, Flathead NF, have wayyy better habitat than say the Medicine Bow/Routt National forest. Yet, the elk populations in the Med. Bow are way better.

I can assure you, as part of my professional job, that the limiting factor on elk in Western Montana is not because of forest management problems. In most of the areas I grew up hunting elk, the habitat is in better shape, due to increased controlled burning and wildfires than it was then.

The best habitat in the world means nothing if elk are pounded on for 6 months of the year. Sort of like a lake with great water, feed, etc. but no fish...

I'm not sure how wanting to increase elk numbers, on land that is publicly accessible to every Resident and Non-Resident hunter could be viewed as "selfish". The areas I hunt, where my family has hunted since the 1930's, is open to anyone with a rifle, tag, and the will to hunt. Its open to all 340 million United States Citizens equally...there is not a single No Trespassing sign on any of it.

I also don't understand how prioritizing the needs of Wildlife, in particular wildlife found on public lands, can be construed as selfish. Its the polar opposite...I want healthy, vibrant herds of big-game on my public lands for all to enjoy.

For the record, I'm in Montana often my immediate family and a lot of friends still live there, I'm easy to track down. I'm pretty chatty...and have no problem holding my own.

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz or who ever knows the answer. Serious question. When you read or hear the fwp say a certain hunt district is at objective, over or under objective numbers. How do they come up with what is the “objective” number? I often wondered but never asked before now.

beech18,

I was going to give Husker red a chance to answer, since he/she knows everything about Montana elk.

The objectives were set via the Elk Management Plan (EMP), in 1992 and with a slight revision in 2005. I was active in both of those plans. The objectives were set on social tolerance of elk, not anything to do with science...carrying capacity, herd densities, etc.

So, should be no surprise that the landowners got the biggest seat at the table, and the herd objectives are a joke.

For a long time it was no big deal that elk populations were over, the artificially low objectives. That is until Debby Barrett (R) Dillon, passed legislation to force the FWP to manage to those numbers.

As you can guess, that has resulted in an all-out war on elk in Montana. To meet these objectives, the FWP over-issued cow tags and made them valid in entire hunting districts. Since most landowners lease, have outfitters, or tightly control access...most of the elk killed were shot on public land. That did a couple things: 1. It really hammered the public land elk. 2. Pushed those over-hunted elk onto private, exasperating the problem with elk staying on private.

The sad thing is, that the EMP, on page 55 gives the FWP a way to NOT consider elk that spend a majority of their time on private as part of the herd objectives. That has only been applied in ONE hunting unit in Montana since 1992.

I hope some meaningful changes happen from the current elk working group to significantly increase herd objectives based on science instead of social tolerance. I also hope that more emphasis is put on getting elk numbers back to good population levels on public...we have the habitat, just need to give them a chance to propogate.

 

[SPAZ]

Huge contributing factor to the problems with public land wildlife/hunting is there's not enough guys like BuzzH and too many guys like DBGMontana these days.

 

[Buxndiverdux]

I'm from NC, and we have a very similar problems here. Very little public land and tons of private. The very best hunting is on private because it has what the animals need. The private is managed for timber, agriculture and game animals. All of these things are done for profit, and will continue to be done that way.

The public land is the exact opposite. It is not managed as a revenue generating asset. It has a minimal budget if any and most of that is spent on roads and gate maintenance. There is no agriculture, very few habitat improvements, and no real income stream to do so. Once you factor in the amount of pressure on public, the animals have no real reason to stay there during hunting season.

No regulation changes are going to make a difference if all the animals want to stay on private.