Yup....they asked for it
My uncle, buried at Arlington, fought on Tinian, Saipan, Iwo Jima...he was a bodyguard for a chaplain. He could not stand Japanese cars either. He drove a Mercedes. I asked him why and he said the Germans didn't try to kill him.My great uncle Julian spent four years in the pacific fighting the Japanese.......at 70 years old he found out his Ford Ranger had a Japanese engine in it.....never drove it again
History says that was discussed, but not a likelihood as those in power would have rather had the emperor alive to act as a leader instead of a bunch of different, fanatical, groups still waging war.I had several family members that fought the Japanese in the Pacific, and they all had a extreme hatred for the Japanese due to war crimes. There should have been a third atomic bomb dropped on Japan and ground zero would have been the Imperial palace.
RELH
Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding you. You are wishing a third atomic bomb had been dropped on the Japanese…
I believe there were 3 bombs made at first two Atomic and one Hydrogen. They tested one of the Atomic in the Utah/Nevada desert. and dropped the other Atomic and Hydrogen bombs on Japan.History says that was discussed, but not a likelihood as those in power would have rather had the emperor alive to act as a leader instead of a bunch of different, fanatical, groups still waging war.
I sometimes wonder about the claims of war crimes, considering the firebombing of Tokyo alone killed 100,000 innocent civilians. So one might wonder if burning thousands not involved in the fighting to death is any more humane than beheading some military personnel that MIGHT have been involved in the burning of those civilians or other killings.A lot of Japanese leaders escaped war crimes prosecution including the head honcho in Japan. He was no different then Hitler. If a third bomb had been dropped on the capital, those leaders would have been killed. The Japanese killed millions of civilians during their conquest of countries.
RELH
That wasn't my point. I believe the firebombing of Tokyo -- among many other such acts -- was also "well documented." No doubt BOTH sides in most wars could document incidents under the heading of "war crimes." Perhaps most people would consider the intentional slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians under that heading, regardless of who does it.The 'claims of war crimes' have been well documented.
I agree. Sure it was payback..but how many "paybacks" were justified before it became disproportionate?? Hiroshima, Nagazaki & Tokyo greatly surpassed the loss of lives & destruction at Pearl Harbor. And if I recall, it was fewer than 75 victims who were civilians at PH, a far cry from the 100s of thousands of cilivilans killed in those three Japanese cities.I believe that the United States thought that this was pay back for Pearl Harbor. In any case the Japanese were far from innocent and were ruthless in their treatment of civilians and prisoners of war. Just look what they did to the many comfort women that they took from their families and disgraced them.
My uncle was a prisoner of war and was never the same when he came back, what they did to him and other prisoners of war was one of the biggest war crimes of all.
Oh come on! And no civilians in the U.S. was supporting the U.S. military killing the 'enemy' or "making war material?"Those Japanese civilians were not as innocent as many think, They supported what their military was doing including the war crimes. Japan also had a "cottage industry" where many of those civilians were making war material in their small cottage shops to support the war effort and military.
A vast majority of the civilians were training to conduct mass suicide attacks on the Americans if they landed a ground force on the mainland of Japan. We were dealing with a class of people that were fanatics and would fight to the death even if it was hopeless for them to win.
RELH
Are you Japanese?Oh come on! And no civilians in the U.S. was supporting the U.S. military killing the 'enemy' or "making war material?"
U.S civilians were making every weapon & war machine, including .30 M1carbines in factories that normally made typewriters, automotive parts & jukeboxes. Does it really make a difference if the civilians did the latter in large factories-- as in nearly every one of them in the U.S. -- or in "small cottage shops?"
So that's begs the question: Who wouldn't "fight to the death even if it was hopeless ..." if some loonies decided to invade the U.S.?
i was about to ask the same thingAre you Japanese?
They certainly were fast learners.......our treatment of them during the occupation and return of their country to them after reconstruction should still be admired by the entire world....no one else would have done the same.....After Germany surrendered, my dad came home and was in Florida training for the invasion of Japan when we dropped the bombs. I'm good with it.
Another big factor in Japan's surrender was the fact that On August 8, 1945, the Soviet Union officially declares war on Japan, pouring more than 1 million Soviet soldiers into Japanese-occupied Manchuria, northeastern China, to take on the 700,000-strong Japanese army. ... Japan had not been too worried about the Soviet Union, so busy with the Germans on the Eastern front.
That was the determining factor that lead to Japan's surrender. They had no problem dying for their country, military or civilian. They would have used the bomb if they had it.
You have to admit, ever since WWII Japan has been a model citizen.
Are you Japanese?
I was wondering how long before the personal atacks would start.Outdoor write are you part Japanese? you sure are defending them
i was about to ask the same thing
No need to both underline and bold your word.That wasn't my point. I believe the firebombing of Tokyo -- among many other such acts -- was also "well documented." No doubt BOTH sides in most wars could document incidents under the heading of "war crimes." Perhaps most people would consider the intentional slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians under that heading, regardless of who does it.
trying to figure out your background is not a personal attack. come on.I was wondering how long before the personal atacks would start.
I wasn't "defending" the Japanese other than to show some of the hypocrisy involved.
Well let's ask ODW if the US did the right thing by bombing Japan. Would like a yes or no answer then a response. Just curious...Brushcreek, at the very least be honest. The question about heritage was 100% a personal attack! It implied that: 1) Outdoorwriter was not loyal to America 2) someone with Japanese heritage is not a real American 3) questioning the morality of actions done by the US is disloyal to America. The list could go on.
Outdoorwriter logically explored the morality of our actions and pointed out the weakness and hypocrisy of certain arguments. Logic and morality are quintessential American values, don’t dismiss them with a personal attack that you don’t even have the courage to stand behind!
Not at all. Just pointing out that the lines between what are and what aren't war crimes is sometimes a little crooked.No need to both underline and bold your word.
You used the word claims and it wasn't by accident.
I think it was an attempt to trivialize their war crimes.
My background has nothing to do with subject.trying to figure out your background is not a personal attack. come on.
LOL, ok , if you say so. The end result was there as I said.Not at all. Just pointing out that the lines between what are and what aren't war crimes is sometimes a little crooked.
Nobody asked you Francis , you certainly have no way to know what my intentions were.Brushcreek, at the very least be honest. The question about heritage was 100% a personal attack! It implied that: 1) Outdoorwriter was not loyal to America 2) someone with Japanese heritage is not a real American 3) questioning the morality of actions done by the US is disloyal to America. The list could go on.
Outdoorwriter logically explored the morality of our actions and pointed out the weakness and hypocrisy of certain arguments. Logic and morality are quintessential American values, don’t dismiss them with a personal attack that you don’t even have the courage to stand behind!
Nogonna answer the yes or no question?
The latter. They were unnecessary.Is that "No" you are not going to answer the "yes r no question" or is it you sayin "no" the U.S. should not have dropped the two atomic bombs on Japan.
RELH
This argument is interesting....but...the reality is you'll never win a war without killing the civilians till their government surrenders....
Yet I havent seen you speak out about Japanese war crimes. Why is that?Not at all. Just pointing out that the lines between what are and what aren't war crimes is sometimes a little crooked.
Oh come on Lumpy...Lincoln wasn't that long ago.....Unfortunately, very unfortunately, it never easy or maybe even at all possible, to judge the actions of previous generations, even generations that are fairly recent.
Time and place, knowledge or the lack therefore, are nearly impossible to comprehend. Situations are far more consequent than we think.
We definitely need to learn from the past, but I think we should all be a little careful about how the i’s got dotted and the t’s got crossed.
Old grudges have long life expectancies if we’re not pretty willing to move on. Some of them go back to Abraham, for hell sake.
The American infantry was sick to their stomach when they were told to prepare for door to door combat with main land Japan. So we’re their Generals, after what they had been through on the Islands. And you can imagine how hard the Japanese civilians would have fought to protect their god figures at home.We didn't know it at the time that Russia was going to help. Russia would have gladly killed Japanese civilians all year long.
You can question the morality of the bombs but you can't argue the outcome. They saved lives. There was no sanitary alternative.
Japanese soldiers were still holding out into the 1960's.
We had two cousins from our tiny home town of about 100 who survived the Bataan Death March.If you kill the fathers, brothers, uncles and nephews of the mothers, daughters and children, of any nation, you can expect the mothers, daughters and the children to respond by teaching and preaching to their fathers, brother, sons and children to kill you.
That includes, Americans, British, Canadian, German, Italian, Australian, Japanese, Chinese, Irainian, Iraq, Souix, Apache, Comanche, etc, etc, etc.
If you think you can kill all the men and their women won’t fight back......with what ever tools they have at their disposal, you may not understand human nature the way I do.
This quarrel with the Islamic nations and their 1500 year old ideology is not just coming from the men. Check what their women are teaching their children for a minute. Who are most of the suicide bombers......men or women and children?
My father in law was flown to Tokyo, by the Japanese, to be honored for his human treatment of Japanese Officers he and his band of brothers captured in while they were bathing in a jungle pool, some where in the Pacific Island. The Japanese begged him to accept a job in a major electricis company and move his family to Japanese. He graciously declined. He had bayonet wounds all over his legs from being overrun while he was sleeping, he killed dozens, in multiple hand to hand fights, hundreds with flame throwers and fully automatic 12 gauge shoot guns, removed heads with piano wires to keep Garrison and Compound guards from screaming out if he’d used a knife. He was in jungles and on the front lines so long his companions, that were not as deligent as others, socks stuck to the flesh on their feet.
Until the day he died he would scream out from nightmares, and nobody, I mean nobody, wife or child, touched him when he was asleep.
He certainly wasn’t the only one. Thousands on both sides told similar experience. War is madness, the most insane way you can imagine.
The point being...... my father in law never regretted for on second of his life the bombing of the Japanese cities like we did. If it would have require more bombs he would have gladly volunteered to do it himself. He knew what it would take and would have done it two years previously if he could have, and this was a man who loved ever person he ever met, Black, White, Yellow and Red.
I don’t care what some committee in Geneva says, if a monster like these bastards goes to war, woman and child are going to die, right along with their men. It’s that or live under brutal slavery, until your children, in some future generation rise up and kill their children.
That’s my story, I’m sticking to it.
The rape of Nanking will not be forgotten by the chinese.If all this history doesn’t blow your mind enough...... pray you don’t live long enough to see how the Chinese settles the score with the Japanese, if we ever give them opportunity.
We were forced by the Japanese to liberate China. Now China and Russia hate us. Japan is an extremely important Allie , against China. Not sure what’s going on between Russia and Germany right now but........ nothing would surprise me in Europe....... AGAIN!
Sort all that out and get back to me. Thanks.
I believe I'm in good company saying the atomic bombs were unnecessary. Most of the top brass in both the Army & Navy, including Truman's Chief of Staff felt the same way. A few that include many household names of the who's who of generals & admirals thought using them was reprehensible & immoral.Could we have won without the bomb? Sure. Japan was defeated in the Pacific so we would have to invade Japan. We would have lost a lot of men and Japan would have lost even more civilians than were lost with the bombs. It made no sense to not use them, IMO.
We didn't know it at the time that Russia was going to help. Russia would have gladly killed Japanese civilians all year long.
You can question the morality of the bombs but you can't argue the outcome. They saved lives. There was no sanitary alternative.
Japanese soldiers were still holding out into the 1960's.
ODW seems as we are well dug in, I’ll move on to more common isses, like you’re a hell of a great cook, journalist and hunting/fishing advocate. I’d keep a light on for ya anytime you find yourself headed north on 89.I believe I'm in good company saying the atomic bombs were unnecessary. Most of the top brass in both the Army & Navy, including Truman's Chief of Staff felt the same way. A few that include many household names of the who's who of generals & admirals thought using them was reprehensible & immoral.
Any planned invasion of mainland Japan was months away. The Japanese war machine was already devastated. They didn't even have enough fuel for the ships because of the blockade. And nearly all of the major cities had been leveled by conventional bombs. Further use of the conventional bombs would have worked the same "magic" without the effects of killing & maiming thousands more AFTER the war had ended.
The vast destruction wreaked by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the loss of 135,000 people made little impact on the Japanese military. However, the Soviet invasion of Manchuria on 9 August – fulfilling a promise of the Yalta conference in February – changed their minds.
Wherever you're headed, have a great weekend!ODW seems as we are well dug in, I’ll move on to more common isses, like you’re a hell of a great cook, journalist and hunting/fishing advocate. I’d keep a light on for ya anytime you find yourself headed north on 89.
All the best today!!
As I said in the message, the invasion that might have led to your uncles' demise would have never occurred because it was planned for NOVEMBER, more than two months after Russia declared war on Aug. 9. There was no way Japan was prepared to continue on TWO different fronts, especially when they had so little to do so other than "bamboo spears."ODW I am glad you were not in command of the decision to drop the bombs as I would have probably lost 3 uncles that were serving in the pacific campaigns.
I knew a Japanese gentleman who was a teenager in Japan during the later years of the war. He told me that the Japanese gov. and military leaders were willing to sacrifice their civilians if a invasion occurred. He and many thousands of other Japanese civilians were training with bamboo spears to commit banzai attacks on the American troops when they land. He even admitted that more lives would have been lost on both sides then what was lost in the two bombings.
Russia only declared war on Japan after we dropped the bombs, not before, as they were assured Japan would be defeated in a short time and they wanted to grab land held by the Japanese that they would not give back. The Japanese leaders knew this and did not want to deal with the Russians on their homeland soil.
I for one do not think the Russians would have declared war on Japan if the bombs had not been dropped as you wish. They wanted a sure thing before they acted.
RELH
If we hadn't dropped it.....and the war eneded in a few months anyway.....someone would have dropped one since then......it showed the world what not to do.....and I am proud that the US showed the world....
My great uncle Julian spent four years in the pacific fighting the Japanese.......at 70 years old he found out his Ford Ranger had a Japanese engine in it.....never drove it again
Probably not in your best interest to determine his "smartness".Evil rules when good men do nothing, a paraphrase. The United States had to stop the evil ....PERIOD. For ODW to cast blemishes on our nation is a sign of the times, my heart aches for the mindset of so many in our nation. My heart is saddened by those Truely innocent lost in the nuclear bombs, however we must recognize that many of those were 100% in favor of the Japanese emporer and supported his continued acts of evil. ODW , your not as smart as you think you are if you don't recognize the tremendous force for GOOD that the USA has been in the history of the world.
If you plan on a trip to Japan to see some of the early Japanese architecture don't bother going to Hiroshima.
The sentence you highlighted stopped short of my following comment sir. Been taking notes from CNN? Revisionist history of the amazing GOOD the USA has done in fighting against evil , stand up for the oppressed who couldn't fight themselves....peoples that aren't smart enough to see the Truth are a pox our nation..DoneProbably not in your best interest to determine his "smartness".
You're
you used "your" improperly at the most inopportune time.....lolThe sentence you highlighted stopped short of my following comment sir. Been taking notes from CNN? Revisionist history of the amazing GOOD the USA has done in fighting against evil , stand up for the oppressed who couldn't fight themselves....peoples that aren't smart enough to see the Truth are a pox our nation..Done