The Drama of the Hunting World

Founder

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
11,640
OK, this is hunting related, but also more. Tell me what you think.

I got an email the other day saying that one of the photos on my site was that of a poacher and a poached deer, and that the guy is being prosecuted for taking the buck illegally. The emailer said he didn't want to see the hunter win anything in our Big Buck Contest. Anyway, his final sentence in that email was, "Do what you want with the information."

My reply was, "He was arrested?"

He then got back to me and said that the guy is being prosecuted for trespassing and possibly other charges. He said he wasn't trying to make a major stink. He then reiteratted the fact the he didn't want that guy to win anyhting.

My reply was, "So, he hasn't been arrested for shooting the deer illegally?" And then explained that I didn't want to email the guy asking about it unless he was actually arrested.

So he replies back and says that in their state, you're not arrested for shooting deer illegally you are just cited and have to appear in court. He went on to say that the guy trespassed on private property to shoot the buck and that he was charged with trespassing, and that by shooting it on private ground, he poached. He said they are putting together a case. He then said that on monstermuleys.com if someone was reported to shoot a deer on a pretected sanctuary, everyone would be outraged.

are you with me?

OK, so I replied back telling him how it would work here in Utah if someone were caught shooting a deer on private ground, then said that I would have to email this individual, and explained how I hate getting into the middle of this stuff cause I don't want to play judge. That is why I wanted to atleast see an arrest record.

He replied back that saying that it wasn't pulic yet.

Now, at this point I emailed the guy being accused of poaching and told him that I had received a couple emails from a guy claiming that he had shot the deer illegally on private ground. And asked what the story was.

He got back saying that the deer was shot on private ground, but that he had permission and that the deer was taken legally. He said he had talked with the game warden and that the warden had even scored it for him. He offered the wardens name a number and said he has nothing to hide.

now for the part that pissed one guy off

I replied to both of them with this email. I sent an email telling the guy being accused the name and email address of the accuser, along with the emails that the accuser had sent me. I went on to explain that I didn't want to play judge. I also stated that if the accusers story is true, then the accuser should have nothing to worry about and shouldn't have an issue with me sharing what is being said. I also stated that if the accusers story is false, then the accused should know what is being emailed to people (me for one), and can sue or whatever.

Today I got an email from the accuser telling me what an idiot I am and how I should have never said who he was and that I'm defending a poacher. He also said how he would hold me responsible if there is any retaliation on him from the accused and also told me he would be informing the prosecuting attorney about our conversations and make it clear that I shared the emails.

I replied back stating that the accused guy has the right to know what is being said to people by you. I explained that if he is telling the truth, he has nothing to worry about. If he is lying, then the accused can do what he needs to do. I explained that both he and I would definitely want to know if people were emailing other saying that we were poachers. I told him if he wanted to keep it a secret, he should have done just that.

the end, for now

So, what do you guys think? If someone contacts me and says you're a poacher, shouldn't I tell you what is being said about you? Should I have kept it all a secret? Should I have pulled the photos and told the guy who submitted them that he was accused by a person who doesn't want to be known? What would you guys do?
If you had two buddies, and one tried to convince you that the other was a poacher, would you tell your buddy that is being accused what your accusing buddy is saying?

I personally think it's wrong to hide things like that from someone, friend or stranger. If someone were telling people I shot a deer illegally, I would want to know. If it were true, then throw the book at me, if not, then the person saying that stuff should be held accountable.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-10 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]The accuser better grow a pair!

Hopefully the accuser knows for a fact there is some illegal BS going on?

This is MM!

Where people are tried!

Convicted!

And Hung!

EDIT: Somebody is Lying!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
Brian I am with you. If you have the balls to accuse some one of poaching you better have the balls to back it up.

The accuser should be man enough to come straight to me first rather than spread rumors to others and expect them to believe second hand info.



Mathews Z7
CX Maxima Hunter 350
Sure Loc Single pin
Epek XC3 Broadheads
 
Yes. I believe you should totally tell someone if another person is accusing you for something illegal. Even more so when it can affect the outcome of something like a contest.
 
So they don't get their Asses kicked/Shot!:D

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
Hopefully the Accused didn't do something illegally just so he/she could enter a Big Buck Contest!

Hopefully the Accuser ain't just Jealous of the Accused persons Buck?

JFP!



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
This is just my opinion but,....I would not share the acuser's name with the accused. You don't know who your dealing with. You would hope it's not a case of jealosy. As far as I would go is to let the accused know of accusation's and get his side of the story(as long as it didn't get anyone in trouble). If there was no facts to back it up I would leave it at that.
 
Here's the latest

The accuser just emailed me and said that he and the guy he was accusing spoke on the phone. The accuser says it's the accused persons brother that is in trouble for something. Don't know what, nor care. The fact is, the accuser emailed me claiming this guy was a poacher and in the end, not accurate. I'll tell you, I'm glad I did what I did, otherwise how far would that rumor have gone????

But still, let's hear what you all would do.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Heard it from a friend who....................Heard it from a friend who....................Heard it from a friend who....................Heard it from a friend who....................Heard it from a friend who....................Heard it from a friend who....................Heard it from a friend who....................Heard it from a friend who....................said the story is changing already!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
I would have done just what you did, otherwise anyone could email you all kinds of BS. Now people know they can't use your site for their own agenda for what ever reason.
 
When you accuse someone of something that serious you beter have your story straight. You did the right thing but I would leave this topic in the dust as quickly as possible and distance yourself from the type of person that would make these false accusations. I assume the parties knew each other and this was fueled by jealousy?
 
Not the same B-Bop.

I don't think they really knew each other. The one guy had just heard rumors, then saw the photo on my site and sent me the emails. I don't know either person at all, just from emails.

I appreciate the comments about the safety of the accuser, however, I beleive a person who is truly afraid for their safety, probably shouldn't be emailing and telling someone they don't know at all (me) about a person. If that guy was scared for his safety, he would have kept his mouth shut.

I think there might have been a little jealousy involved, cause the accuser did say he had also been hunting that same deer. So.....????? You know how that goes. Someone gets beat and starts calling foul. People amaze me.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Brian I think you did the right thing! Also if someone is going to accuse another person of poaching. He better know darn well all the circumstances of the situation and be able to back it up. Then the accuser better take responsibility for his actions.
 
Well!

That's what I meant!

"The one guy had just heard rumors"

Rumors come from:Heard it from a Friend who.............

Just sayin!

If somebody is gonna stirr this kind of stuff up they'd best have the facts!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
I hear you guys about the accuser taking responsibility, but lets take a look at this from another perspective.

If the guy is guilty, and now knows who has been ratting him out.....who is to say that after breaking one law he won't break another, maybe go after the guy,his property, or family? (Doing something in retaliation?)

How would you feel if someone who was trying to do the right thing ended up getting hurt, or his family was hurt because you turned his info over to the accused poacher?

I won't say what you did was right or wrong, but there are always two ways to look at things.
 
Brian, you handled that perfectly! Very professional, IMHO.


2a0fcsk.gif
 
>I hear you guys about the
>accuser taking responsibility, but lets
>take a look at this
>from another perspective.
>
>If the guy is guilty, and
>now knows who has been
>ratting him out.....who is to
>say that after breaking one
>law he won't break another,
>maybe go after the guy,his
>property, or family? (Doing something
>in retaliation?)
>
>How would you feel if someone
>who was trying to do
>the right thing ended up
>getting hurt, or his family
>was hurt because you turned
>his info over to the
>accused poacher?
>
>I won't say what you did
>was right or wrong, but
>there are always two ways
>to look at things.


True, but in this case "doing the right thing" is not emailing the owner of a website because you don't want the guy winning an internet big buck contest when YOU do not have the facts firsthand anyway....

Good job Brian, you handled it well.

-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
 
That's one of the problems with Rumors!

Somebody always gets hurt!

Again,The Accuser damn well better have some hard facts before engaging his mouth,and maybe he does?

Rumors are like Assholes,there's more than enough of them around!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
I have a little different take on this issue.

I think you should have replied to the e-mail from the accuser thanking them for the info and then drop it.

You chose to get in the middle of a dispute that really doesn't concern you. In fact by sharing the e-mail you are fueling a situation that could get ugly.

Are you going to research every entry you get for your contest?

In your position as owner of this site I would say MYOB. You of all people shouldnt be adding to the drama.

Just my opinion!

Slick
 
Come on a3dhunter, people testify in court against other people everyday, and VERY FEW need to go into witness protection for fear of retaliation.
This is no different. If that guy feared for his safety, he shouldn't have been emailing me!!! It would be like a mob snitch going into the witness protection program, and then going on Oprah and telling their story. Makes no sense.
If people are really afraid to speak up when they know for a fact that a crime has been committed, then we might have big problems in this country.

I'll probably have to be testifying against a couple poachers here real soon in southern Utah, you think I should probably look into the witness protection program? No way a3dhunter. I don't think "fear of retaliation" is something most of us really need to worry about............knocking on wood now.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Easy Slick!

I'd hate to see an Illegal/Poached Buck win a prize of any kind!

I'd also hate to see somebody Falsely accused of something He didn't do!

Until the case is settled in a Court of Law(Or on MM,LMAO!)I don't think the Accuser should'of said anything to anybody without it being the Hard Cold truth and maybe it is?





God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
Unfortunately, Brian is already in the middle.

In order for the site to remain neutral in something like this, he needs all parties to be on the same page.

The dolt that informed Brian is at fault here, he should have kept his mouth shut until the facts were all public and then protested with that information in hand.

Brian did exactly what I would expect him to do and I applaud him for it.

That all being said, I would not want him to call my wife and tell her I had a girlfriend in Colorado with big hooters.....of course you all know that would be a fairytale!
 
nickman!

Not only am I callin BS!

I'm callin your Wife too!:D

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
If the accuser didn't want his name mentioned, he shouldn't of emailed you Brian. He should of gave the info to the authorities and had them figure it out. Then if the guy was arrested for poaching then let you know, so that you could remove his photos from the contest. You had every right to do what you did.
 
Lets hope in the future there are no rumors posted on this site. (Unless they pertain to Mossback or Carters)
 
NUNYA!



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
Slick,

I think I would tend to agree with your take on the issue.

Founder could have simply kept the information to himself or handle it how he did. In the end, what would have been more helpful?

To think that retalliation is not a possiblity is being niave. People that poach typically don't have a lot to lose.

Just one man's opinion.

Excavator
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-10 AT 10:13PM (MST)[p]This was an accusation about a private property case, not a murder, stop with the drama. If it wasn't a contest enrty, fine... blow it off. Because it was a contest, Brian did the right thing. If a man runs his suck because he's heard a rumor, then he should be willing to stand in front of the man he's accusing face to face. Anything less is chicken sh!t and is just another example of what MEN in this country have become (men that don't hunt anyway... and some that do evidently....lol) a bunch of cowering pu... pu... pu..... CATS!!! (Sorry, family site couldn't say what I wanted to)

EDIT*** Excavator and Slick, I'm not at all calling either of you....CATS. I'm refering to the accuser

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-10 AT 11:55PM (MST)[p]Hey Founder, do you ever feel like a babysitter? It Kind of sucks when you have to act like the adult. Then again, you make all that money, baby sitting pays so well. Take your stand and let the chips fall where they may. Besides he's likely a newbie with 30 some odd posts that is just a little butt hurt or a major case of post tally envy, but I'm not bitter.
 
I certainly can find no fault in what you did. I might have proceeded differently on order to follow through on a report of a poached animal and because of "contest" business your engaged in.

I believe I'd have inquired as to the authority investigating the report and called the authority to see if they were in fact involved in an investigation. If they were, I might have offered the information off the MM site( the images) and the comments of the accuser, to assist in the investigation and removed the image from the contest, pending investigation. If the accuser could not or would not give me the name of the investigating authority I would have told him I was going to proceed as if the information he as sharing was here-say. I'd have told him; if you have proof, you needed to report it to the appropriate authority and I will base my decision on information that I get from that authority.

My logic or lack thereof is this: I would not want to tip off the accused (by calling him) if he was in fact guilty of illegal behavior. (I'd want to see him prosecuted if guilty.) On the other hand, if the accuser could not or would not tell me who was conducting the investigation and it was only some stranger accusing another stranger of violating the law, I would most likely tell him to get me more than rumor (his claim is rumor unless he has some proof.) to base my decision on and until there was more proof that there had been a violation committed, I'm going to proceed as if he had not called.

I don't have any way to conduct an investigation of my own, would not want to try to conduct an legal investigation on my own therefore I would assume that until some authority tells me they are involved I'm going to proceed as if no crime has been committed.

But, that's just me. I understand your desire to keep integrity in your contest and in the MM site but I don't think anyone should assume that your a legal investigator. I say, let the law do what the law does well, you do what you do well, administer a dang challenging public debate web site.

Well............you did ask for opinion. Doesn't make what you did wrong, just different from what I'd have done.

DC
 
This site is full of BS rumors. Amazing that this is the first time Brian has had the balls to do anything about it. Of course he probably figured it would stir up some drama and keep people hitting the site. Thus putting some christmas cash in his pocket.
 
Easy NUNYA!:D



God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!
I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
 
Easy little fella!! There's more to the site than just rumor.......atleast that's the rumor. I don't know for sure, just saying. Friend of a friend, who heard it from his cousins step-brother told me. So........ya

Christmas cash baby!!! Christmas cash......that's what I like!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
LOL
If some-one was telling crap around like that on you I BET YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, like to know who it was and why it was being said,What was being said, the part about the GW scoring the head and here he's phone number pretty much cleared it up for me, HOW many poachers give you the number to the GW to call.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
A lot of big animals taken are clouded in rumors, we all know that by now. It's to be expected.

Brian, did you contact the warden like the accused offered?

Brian, you don't have the time nor the capability to investigate every rumor on the internet. If people come to you without proof, you need to ignore it.

Even a citation or an arrest is not proof of guilt. Only a conviction will do that.

I think the only thing you can do is conduct your contests and if you find out someone was later convicted of wrong doing, then post it. It's going to happen, but I think that's all you can do.

Eel
 
That's a tough situation to handle. If someone has reason to believe that a deer was taken illegally, they should first contact a poaching investigator from the DWR. If there is further information to be collected, the DWR officer can review the post and contact the administrator (You).

I if were you Brian, I probably would have just turned it over to the DWR and let them handle it. You can email them all the PMs and emails to them and then they can take it from there.

I don't think what you did was wrong at all. But to avoid drama in the future it's probably best to call the DWR. I know of at least a few COs that watch this and other forums very closely.
 
Leave the drama to the soap opera's. Ignore this kind of stuff. Getting in the middle of something you don't control just cause you more trouble then it's worth. If the guy wins a contest and later it comes out he is a poacher so be it. Lessons learned. Just my opinion. Without facts, ignore it.
 
I think HJB hit it right on. I think you should have thanked the accuser for the information you received and turned in everything you got. You arent in the business of investigating crime nor should you get involved in arbitration or settling disputes. I dont think you should have divulged the name of the accuser to the accused. If you were to call the DWR or the PD to report a crime, you are not required to give any information about who you are. In regards to the contest, considering that the accuser had no verifiable information about the legality of the buck in question, nothing should have changed about the entry.

For all of you who say that you would want to know who is talking behind your backs, well of course you would. Clue in folks. . . people are talking behind your backs on a daily basis and most of you dont know what is being said and dont know who is talking. Its part of life. Learn to deal. Even if you do know who is talking bad about you, most of us will never do anything about it anyways. Hopefully you guys are mature enough to not threaten ass kickings and learn to deal with adversity.
 
Founder: Under the circumstances I feel you handled this situation correctly. Your website is a public forum and your holding a public contest with a time line to announce a winner.

As with all contests when someone comes forward and indicates there is a possible violation of the rules of the contest. People in control and administering the rules be followed correctly must take the complaint and act on it.

To me that means I contact DWR and verify if in fact DWR has a violation pending against the hunter for taking of the specific animal in the contest. The violation could be "poaching" (as defined in the Reg's) of the animal, tresspass, illegal method of take, etc. In general, the average hunter may use the term "Poacher" to state that the person has not taken that specific game animal by the rules. If the DWR does have a case on file or pending for a violation of the hunter shooting the specific animal, or is in fact in the process of investigating the case, there is a problem but no violation until a law enforcement agancy says there is a violation. If nothing is going on with this as a case at DWR then "END OF STORY". If DWR verifies something is going on regarding the take of this animal but no violation is indicated before your decision of a winner. Seems to me in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. So the entry should stay in the contest and if at a later date it is found that the contest entry has violated a rule of the contest then any prize would need to be forfeited back to MM.

As the Administrator of this website you do your best to keep the contest fair and above board. With the time line for announcing a winner of your contest you have no choice but to put the contest participant on notice that someone has made an offical complaint against the contest entry. To me the complaining party has no expectation of privacy regarding the complaint as this is a public forum/contest. If the complaining party wanted privacy they should have gone to DWR directly and let the issue play out there. By putting this issue out to everyone and not mentioning names. No one can say you tried to bury the complaint or prematurely invalidate a contest entry.
If the complaining person's facts are correct then he should not have a problem. If the complaining persons facts are not correct then it is like "he has now created his own problems".

I have only receitly started posting to your website but have enjoyed the readings for years.

Keep Up the Good Work

TrophyHunter

)))).....>
 
Are you kidding me? You want to keep a poaching incident private so you email the owner of one of the biggest hunting sites in the country and ask him to eliminate the accused from a big buck/bull contest because the accused supposedly poached the buck or bull? Huh? You would probably have better luck asking Fox News not to run a story about Clintons lip service!

No question you did the right thing Brian. Like you said, if the accuser is telling the truth then he doesn't have anything to worry about. If he's not, then I would really worry. If he's not telling the truth and just trying to start a rumor he deserves everything he gets, including an ass kickin!





It's always an adventure!!!
 
If your big boy enough to make accusations you better be big boy enough to handle the fallout IMO.

Don't spread rumors if your worried that there might be an issue with the person your talking about.

Bill
 
Brian,

The problem with the whole deal is that they put you in a bad spot. You were forced to fight a battle that you couldn't win.

Since you asked for an opinion: I would have told the accuser to offer up the proof or take a flying leap. At which point I would have let the whole thing drop.

Best regards, Zeke

BTW; What little I know you I have no doubt that you try to do the right thing every chance you get.
 
Another option would hacve been to ask the accuser to have the investigating officer contact you about removing the buck pictures. But the way you handled it did provide us with entertainment.

Yelum
 
Just remember that old saying.

" If you kick a Tiger in the nuts you best have a plan to deal with the teeth and claws"

The same go accusing some-one of this and not having proof it true, The hunter who shot this buck does a pay back so be it you sow and you should reap. I guess the guy didn't have a plan beside talking and hoping he was cause some-one problems.
So have the Warden said if this was the case or not, I'm waiting to hear if he was contacted and gave the greenlight or a red light.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
"Anyway, his final sentence in that email was, 'Do what you want with the information.'"

This is informed consent to do what you want with the info. No restrictions are indicated. You shared it with his permission. No libel here.


"Today I got an email from the accuser telling me...how he would hold me responsible if there is any retaliation on him from the accused and also told me he would be informing the prosecuting attorney about our conversations and make it clear that I shared the emails."

Meaningless threats. HE shared the information, so if the prosecutor wants to have a beef, it will be with him. You have no legal obligation to keep the information to yourself any way. I believe your first ammendment right has been excersized. The accuser might have an ethics beef with you, though he might want to look at his own ethics as well, but you didn't break any laws.

As far as accusations are concerned, perhaps the courts' stand might be a good template. Accusation without evidence is heresay. Guilt is generally determined by a proponderance of evidence.

Private site, you own it, no laws were broken, libel wasn't committed, an effort was made to address and settle a claim involving both parties: Nice work Founder.
 
5853mm_days_of_our_lives.jpg


Founder

Your patch is awesome!

I think all your bucks on the web site are poached... if that is what it takes to get you to call me. I thinks they all poached.

Call me.

Midnight
 

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