Texan kills thieves: Hero or homicidal?

3

3Toes

Guest
I have enjoyed the various discussions regarding the relationship between our freedoms and the need for public purpose and hopefully progress. I also suspect that most members of this forum own weapons, and probably have a loaded weapon in their home, vehicle, or on their person. I wish I knew how to post the article, but to give some insight.

A man in texas shot and killed two burglars as they were leaving his neighbors home. There was a long discussion prior to the shooting, during which the dispatcher tried to discourage him from leaving the house to confront the men.

So my question is HERO or HOMICIDAL ?

Hopefully someone can give a link to the article.
 
Here is the aricle

HOUSTON - The cha-chick of a shell entering a shotgun's chamber rattled through the 911 line just before Joe Horn stepped out his front door.

ADVERTISEMENT


Horn, 61, had phoned police when he saw two men break into his neighbor's suburban Houston home through a window in broad daylight. Now they were getting away with a bag of loot.

"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

He did.

Admirers, including several of his neighbors, say Horn is a hero for killing the burglars, protecting his neighborhood and sending a message to would-be criminals. Critics call him a loose cannon. His attorney says Horn just feared for his life.

Prosecuting Horn could prove difficult in Texas, where few people sympathize with criminals and many have an almost religious belief in the right to self-defense. The case could test the state's self-defense laws, which allow people to use deadly force in certain situations to protect themselves, their property and their neighbors' property.

Horn was home in Pasadena, about 15 miles southeast of Houston, on Nov. 14 when he heard glass breaking, said his attorney, Tom Lambright. He looked out the window and saw 38-year-old Miguel Antonio DeJesus and 30-year-old Diego Ortiz using a crowbar to break out the rest of the glass.

He grabbed a 12-gauge shotgun and called 911, Lambright said.

"Uh, I've got a shotgun," he told the dispatcher. "Uh, do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that," the dispatcher responded. "Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"

Horn and the dispatcher spoke for several minutes, during which Horn pleaded with the dispatcher to someone to catch the men and vowed not to let them escape. Over and over, the dispatcher told him to stay inside. Horn repeatedly said he couldn't.

When the men crawled back out the window carrying a bag, Horn began to sound increasingly frantic.

"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn said as a shell clicked into the chamber. "You hear the shotgun clicking, and I'm going."

A few seconds passed.

"Move," Horn can be heard saying on the tape. "You're dead."

Boom.

Click.

Boom.

Click.

Boom.

Horn redialed 911 and told the dispatcher what he'd done.

"I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."

Lambright said Horn had intended to take a look around when he left his house and instead came face to face with the burglars, standing 10 to 12 feet from him in his yard.

Horn is heavyset and middle-aged and would have been no match in a physical confrontation with the two men, who were young and strong, Lambright said. So when one or both of them "made lunging movements," Horn fired in self-defense, he said.

Family members of the two shooting victims have made few public statements.

Diamond Morgan, Ortiz's widow, who has an 8-month-old son with him, told Houston television station KTRK that she was stunned by Horn's statements on the 911 tape. "It's horrible," she said. "He was so eager, so eager to shoot."

The Associated Press could not find a telephone listing for Morgan.

The case brought back memories of Bernard Goetz, the New Yorker whom some hailed as a folk hero after he shot four teenagers he said were trying to rob him when they asked for $5 on a subway in 1984.

Goetz was cleared of attempted murder and assault charges but convicted of illegal possession of the gun he used to shoot the youths. He served 8 1/2 months in jail and was ordered by a jury to pay $43 million to one of the teenagers he shot.

Pasadena police were still investigating Monday and planned to present their findings to Harris County prosecutors within the next two weeks, police spokesman Vance Mitchell said. From there, it is expected to be presented to a grand jury. In the meantime, Horn remains uncharged.

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they could otherwise be killed. In some cases, people also can use deadly force to protect their neighbors' property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town.

At issue is whether it was reasonable for Horn to fear the men and whether his earlier threats on the 911 call showed he planned to kill them no matter what, said Fred C. Moss, who teaches criminal law at Southern Methodist University in Dallas
 
Wow, hard to know what I'd do in that situation. Two men dead at your hands! Wow! If they were coming after him he had no choice. I'm sure that will replay through his mind for the rest of his life. Hope I never have to make that choice.

Its fair chase, or its foul!
 
I suppose this will be determined by the courts. Laws differ state by state. My own opinion is that if a criminal is confronted in the act of robbing a home and is ordered to halt at gun point and they don't halt . . . they are liable to get what is coming to them. I have ZERO sympathy for dead burglars.

Now this doesn't mean I would shoot them myself, because I may be concerned about prudent matters of liability and whether I would be prosecuted for a crime for my actions . . . but if you ask where my sympathies lie, it ain't with the dead burglars. They can rot and fester unburied and a prey to birds as far as I'm concerned. Sounds like in this case the shoooter's neighbors feel about the same way.
 
The same law was passed last year here in AZ. Plus in our law if they try to carjack you, you can kill them too. Wahoo
 
I'm not sure I would have shot them either, but I certainly don't have any remorse for them. I hope the guy stays free. But, I doubt he will.

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

That statement right there is what they will argue, and will probably put the guy away. And I'm sure the prosecutor will consider it first degree. It'll be a tough one though.










It's Bush's fault!!!
 
>Wow, hard to know what I'd
>do in that situation.
>Two men dead at your
>hands! Wow! If they
>were coming after him he
>had no choice. I'm
>sure that will replay through
>his mind for the rest
>of his life. Hope
>I never have to make
>that choice.
>
>Its fair chase, or its foul!
>


Wow, same as Idabigbuck. I can't stand criminals but to kill someone over theft would be a heavy burden to carry the rest of your life. I'd like to say I would have done something different but who knows.

Ransom
 
Sounds to me like movie studios will be contacting him later this week, for movie rights.

Here's sum titles they're throwing around.

"Shotgun vs. buglers/shotgun wins"
"Texas Shotgun massacre"
"go ahead...jesus, make my day"

With subtitles, the Spanish versions

" Uno gringo loco "
" Que pasa, jesus "
" muy pendejo "
 
Piss on a thief. Just two more scum off the streets. The man will walk.
My God I am proud to a TEXAN.

Kill'em all and let God sort'em out!!

"On earth as it is in TEXAS"


?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
Well I've learned two thing on this post. One is don't carjack in Arizona and two don't steal anything in Texas.
Will take my own truck to Arizona and no stealing in Texas.


Ransom
 
>Well I've learned two thing on
>this post. One is don't
>carjack in Arizona and two
>don't steal anything in Texas.
>
>Will take my own truck to
>Arizona and no stealing in
>Texas.
>
>
>Ransom


Rancid must feel gooder!!!!
 
I personally think they should just toss the bodies in the landfill and call it a day. But from a legal perspective, and on the facts presented in the article, that old boy is going to prison.

On the other hand, this did happen in Texas, so who knows.
 
>I personally think they should just
>toss the bodies in the
>landfill and call it a
>day. But from a
>legal perspective, and on the
>facts presented in the article,
>that old boy is going
>to prison.
>
>On the other hand, this did
>happen in Texas, so who
>knows.


Facts??? Dont forget chances are left wing media is reporting!
 
>I personally think they should just
>toss the bodies in the
>landfill and call it a
>day. But from a
>legal perspective, and on the
>facts presented in the article,
>that old boy is going
>to prison.
>
>On the other hand, this did
>happen in Texas, so who
>knows.

I doubt he'll go to prison, Texas doesnt put up with that type of crap. When you make the decision to break into peoples homes and steal things you have to know that you could face an angry homeowner or neighber and be killed. I will lose no sleep knowing that these guys payed the ultimate price.

More people like him and I guarantee that crime numbers would go down.

Drum



dan-henderson_wanderlei-silva.gif
 
Dont carjack in tucson!

Testosterone is in again. Witness the ascent of Dr. Richard Carmona, the true-to-life hero nominated by President Bush for the post of surgeon general and recently confirmed, unanimously, by the Senate. Our new surgeon general displays the manly virtue of courage that our nation has again learned to admire since we went to war. The confirmation process reflects our rediscovered consensus that real men aren't afraid to use force ? even deadly force ? when necessary to protect a woman from a violent predator.

Carmona's life story is one of overcoming adversity and excelling in service to others. A high-school dropout from Harlem, he joined the Army and won two Purple Hearts, serving as a medic and a Green Beret. After distinguishing himself as a soldier he resumed his education, becoming a trauma surgeon and earning a postgraduate degree in health policy and administration. Carmona also directed the first trauma care program in southern Arizona.

Along the way, the surgeon-soldier-administrator became an expert on bioterrorism and an advocate for bioterrorism preparedness several years before September 11. So far, shining credentials for a surgeon general.

But Carmona's other high-profile accomplishments stirred a controversy that highlights Americans' ambiguity about the use of force. In 1999 Carmona, a sheriff's deputy and SWAT-team member, encountered a man assaulting a woman. As the Los Angles Times later explained, Carmona had "stumbled onto a killer who was holding a woman hostage. The man, who police later determined had stabbed his father to death and was on his way to kill an old girlfriend, grazed Carmona's head with a bullet before the doctor, also a badge-carrying sheriff's deputy, fired a single shot to kill him."

Carmona had done his job as a sworn peace officer and saved the life of an innocent woman, as well as his own.

But University of Arizona colleague Dr. Charles Putnam denounced Carmona for allegedly violating the physician's duty to do no harm. But in fact, the "do no harm" phrase is a simplification of language from the Hippocratic Oath:

I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked.

This language is, by its terms, confined to the physician's role in treating his patients ? not in his role as a father defending a home from a violent invader, or a peace officer defending his community from a murderer.

When the Hippocratic Oath is meant to apply to a physician's non-professional life, the oath specifically says so, for a physician is bound to keep secret he learns "in connection with my professional practice or not in connection with it."

In modern times, most medical ethicists have not delved into issues involving homicidal attacks on medical personnel. Three authors who have, however, are Harvard psychiatry professor Arthur Z. Berg, University of Illinois at Chicago psychiatry and public health professor Carl C. Bell, U-Cal. Davis psychiatry professor Joe Tupin. In their article "Aspects of Violence: Issues in Prevention and Treatment" (published in vol. 86 of the journal New Directions for Mental Health Services, Summer 2000). Advising mental-health workers on dealing with violent patients, Berg and his co-authors explain:

The idea of harming someone is foreign to most mental health workers. Nonviolent methods that do not cause harm are appropriate for management of aggressive patients. But when faced with serious bodily injury or death, those methods may not apply. The clinician must be prepared to do whatever violence is necessary to save himself or herself and other. In these situations, "First do no harm" has no place.

Nevertheless, the verbal attack on Carmona escalated when Dr. James Curran, the Dean of the Rollins School of Public Health at Emory University weighed in. Because of Emory's proximity to the federal Centers for Disease Control, also located Atlanta, its school of public health tends to get a good deal of media attention.

Dean Curran announced that he was not "proud that our surgeon general shoots people." He denounced Carmona as "a cowboy."

Consistent with Dean Curran's aversion to Carmona's use of a firearm, Emory University has long served as a center of antigun propaganda, most notably from Dr. Arthur Kellermann, a tireless producer of dubious antigun factoids. More recently, Emory has become infamous as the home of history professor Michael Bellesiles, author of the now-exposed hoax book Arming America.

Because Dr. Carmona was carrying a gun and knew how to use it, a violent criminal died, and two or more innocent women and men survived. By the moral calculus of most people, this would seem a very good result. Had Dr. Carmona "done no harm" to the harmful predator, then the innocent hostage would have been assaulted and perhaps murdered. The killer might have gone to murder his ex-girlfriend, as well as any peace officers (Carmona included) who attempted to interfere. To be explicit: A dead male violent predator is a better public-health result than several innocent women and men brutalized, severely injured, and possibly murdered.

As Dean Curran's denunciation of the life-saving Dr. Carmona highlights, "public health" is, in some hands, increasingly becoming an instrument of moral intolerance, rather than of genuine public health.

This is why the "public-health" campaign against guns and gun owners tends to ignore or disparage lawful defensive uses of firearms against criminals, or against genocidal governments ? even though genocide is surely the worst possible "health outcome."

Rather notably, many of the prime targets of today's "public-health" puritans are same targets which have always been so bothersome to people who insist that everyone live by a single standard of moral purity: tobacco, alcohol, and food. But rather than make the straightforward (and not implausible) moral arguments against smoking, drinking, and gluttony, the "public health" puritans wrap their claims in spurious factoids created by bogus research.

They campaign for smoking prohibition on the ludicrous grounds that inhaling secondhand smoke is more dangerous than smoking cigarettes. They campaign against alcohol by raising scare statistics about "binge drinking" ? and rather significantly, their "binge drinkers" include people who drink at levels which leave them stone cold sober. Likewise, the "public-health" puritans rail against gluttony ? by producing bogus statistics about "obesity" which define NFL running-backs as "obese."

Of course there are many serious, dedicated public-health workers and scholars who really do protect public health. The genuine health professionals are busy fighting against infectious diseases, monitoring the safety of drinking water, and studying how viruses spread from one population to another.

Yet too often, the "public-health" voices which appear in the newspapers aren't the voices of health advocacy, but the voices of neo-puritanism, masked in public-health rhetoric and waving phony and frightening statistics.

In a sense, Dean Curran's attack on Dr. Carmona serves the useful of purpose of revealing how extreme the Puritans of Public Health Agenda can be. It's not really about reducing how often innocents are harmed by guns; the agenda won't even allow rampaging murderers to be harmed with guns.

Our United States Senate, happily, found nothing immoral in Dr. Carmona's record. Had Dr. Carmona ever performed an abortion, or if he had ever volunteered at a pro-life medical counseling center, you can be sure that at least a few senators would have found the doctor's actions morally disturbing. But saving women by shooting a rampaging murder ? there's nothing at all morally disturbing about that ? at least according to the 98 United States senators who voted for Dr. Carmona. (Two were absent.)

Dr. Richard Carmona is a physician and educator with demonstrated ability under fire, both metaphorically and literally. He has stood in that dark place where evil threatens, and he has prevailed. What better person could serve as surgeon general for a nation at war?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-07 AT 05:38PM (MST)[p]I give a pat on the back to the old feller. Filthy scum of the earth like them had what was coming to em

-Cody AKA BigBuck92
 
Don't want to get shot to death? Don't commit robberies. Sounds like Mr. Horn would be a good neighbor.

Beanman
 
I feel sorry for the guy. He did what he thought he had to do and now he is going to be all tied up in legal BS for years.

Some lawyer already has the perps family on the dotted line for a lawsuit, which given our liberal assed court system, they will prevail.

Even if he wins, he has to get a lawyer and pay through the ass for his defense.

I shoot anyone around my house, I'm finding a neighbor with a hogfarm. I would never call 911....and wait, an wait, and wait.
 
I know that this is a faceless internet site and things are said that wouldn't be said face to face or in real life.

But, how can anyone value human life so low, to justify taking a life for a handfull of things or trinkets. The flipside of this story is that if you justify this man's actions. Someone can justify taking your life for something as senseless and minor. Maybe not a theft or burglary because none of us would commit those crimes, but how about bouncing a check of the same dollar value. Or damaging a piece of property that we are renting. The impact finacially is the same to the victim, should we be able to shoot people in those cases.

I personally value my life to the point that I could not take one, except to save one.
 
3toes;
You have a valid point that has to be decided by any person thinking about shooting someone over the theft of property. But this incident may not fit that catagory.
Yes it looks bad because he made that prior statement about going out and killing them. Did he really mean that, or did he say that due to excitement and fustration that it was taking too long for law enforcement to get there. to a person in that frame of mind, a minute seems like 10 minutes and he may have felt that by making that statement they would hurry up faster and get there and handle the probem.
what most have overlooked is his 2nd call to dispatch and stating, " I had no choice", he said, his voice shaking, "they came in the front yard with me, I had no choice, get somebody over here quick"
This would appear that upon confronting them, and telling them to get down, they refused and advanced upon him. There is a very good chance those two suspects felt that the old fat guy with the shotgun would not have the guts to shoot and they advanced with the idea of taking the shotgun away and turning it on him. Don't kid yourself, suspects are know to do this when they convince themselfs the other guy does not have the fortitude to pull the trigger. I would not be surprised if one or both suspects turn out with drugs in their system that gave them the courage to advance on the neighbor.
This may turn out to be more of a case of self defense shooting in fear of injury or death to himself and will make it a legal shooting. The civil part may be harder to win, but I can see him winning any lawsuit if he is able to convince the jury that it was self defense and not just a angry person shooting two would be thiefs. Being in Texas will help him.

RELH
 
In 2001 on Halloween night my family was awoken to an idiot pounding the crud out of my front door. I awoke , got my hand gun and went to the door as my wife gathered my 2 daughters and took them to our bedroom where she had my 12gauge pump and she called 911. The 911 operator could hear the man yelling to open the f___ing door to let him in.I hollered back that I had a gun and I would for certain shoot him if he came throught the door way. The 911 operator asked me to put away my gun and wait for the police(my brother was a 10 year veteran of the State Police), at which I said she was crazy if she thought Iwas about to put down my gun. She said that the sheriffs dept was there but was waiting for back up to arrive. Non the less after minutes of THE MOST TERRIFYING EVENT, the sheriifs deputies got there and plebty of them . They proceeded to take this man to the wood shed and I'm talking big time asz whoopin. I felt no pity on him and just watched as they knocked the crap out of him! Come to find out , he was drunk, go figure, and got turned around in the mobile home park(don't live there anymore)and thought he was at his families house.
Long story but I'll tell you this now , I have NO RESERVATION to shooting ANYBODY when it comes to the safety and well being of my family. I think this man in TX was just angry and scared at the fact that these two pieces of crap thieves were getting away. Mess with the bull or in the bulls pen and sooner or later you'll get the business end of the bull!
 
nah, just cut their hads off,

did you hear about the guy from AZ. shot a guy while hiking he got 10 years...
 
When I took my concealed weapons class, the officer teacing the class said if someone busts into a Taco bell and robs the place for $17 in the till, $17 bucks aint worth taking a mans life. Now if that guy begans to excute people you have a decsion to make.......Boom

Mike
 
This gentleman had options, prior to walking outside and confronting these criminals. He didn't have to kill anyone, he chose to put himself in a position where that might occur. Would he have gone outside without having a firearm in his possession. I don't think so. So along that same line of thinking. Do legally armed good citizens make decisions differently if they are carrying a weapon or have one available?

Protecting your family or for that matter anyone elses life I understand. Choosing to insert yourself into a situation where you may have to kill over plastic and metal whatevers. I just don't understand.

I actually feel sorry for the guy. He chose to kill two people when he didn't have to.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-07 AT 02:36PM (MST)[p]He didn't "choose" to kill these idiots. He refused to let them get away. He acknowleged the fact that a confrontation with these two could prove to be very dangerous. He chose to arm himself before confronting them because he knew he would be dealing with two potentially dangerous men. He was forced to kill them because of the danger to his life. It's true, he could have stayed inside and avoided the situation. The two dead guys could have avoided the situation pretty easily too by not leading a life of crime, or at the very least, by submitting to the guy with the shotgun. Everyone makes decisions in life, and most of the time those decisions have consequences. I hope the outcome serves as a lesson to others in our society that think they can get away with this type of behavior. Choose carefully.
 
3toes;

What this boils down too in a nutshell, are you willing to help your neighbor from being victimized by a thief, it is apparent you are not willing to intervene and that is your right. Other folks may have different feelins about it then you do, does not make you or them wrong or right.
As for having a firearm, that is best described by the saying, "God made man, Sam Colt made them all equal".
I am sure that old man would not have gone out there without having something to make him feel equal to the two criminals, in fact to do so would be committing suicide. Now I have a question, would you advocate the taking away of firearms from honest citizens in order to insure they would not invene in cases like this and maybe prevent someone having to die because of their actions?

RELH
 
I knew that somebody would come on and make "victims" of the 2 thugs that chose to commit robbery. Classic!

Drum


dan-henderson_wanderlei-silva.gif
 
Unfortunately I don't have a sit on the sideline personality, so I have occasionally intervened. And, other times I have positioned myself in a manner that allowed me to be a very good witness. Its not in my nature to look the other way. RELH - If your house was being broken into I would be a pretty good guy to have around. You can believe that or not.

I will admit that I was not excited about carry permits at first. I expected more of what happened in Texas. It hasn't and I now support carry permits. Everyone should have the right to protect themselves. But with that right comes the responsibility to avoid situations that could lead to the use of a weapon.

Like the guy I watched pull a handgun on another motorist after he waived the guy over because he had cut him off. His explanation was I had to pull the weapon because the other driver got out of the car with a bat. The poor decision to confront the other driver out weighed his now having to protect himself. He shouldn't have even been there in the first place just like the guy in Texas. Luckily no one was hurt.

If you insert yourself into a situation that requires you to have a firearm to level the field, and you are not saving someones live. Then you should stay out. If the situation is such that you are uncomfortable without the firearm, and you are not saving someones life. You should stay out.

That doesn't mean I would ask people to look the other way and not be passively involved in the capture of the criminals.

My thoughts on this subject would be totally different if these guys were breaking into the guys home. Or, if he knew the neighbors were home and he went to protect them. But that is not the case. He had time to think, he was cautioned to not leave the house. He knew what he was doing. He even told the dispatcher what he was going to do.

This guy in Texas said he was going to kill them and did. I can't justify by any stretch his actions.

Let me give you another situation. You pull up to an accident and stop to help (police have not arrived). One of the drivers is drunk and is trying to drive away. You know that he has already committed one crime, and it is likely that he will injure or kill someone further down the road if you let him leave. There is also a chance that he will get away and not be held accountable for the accident. So you draw your firearm and stand in front his car. When he doesn't stop, you kill him.

How many of you would feel justified in killing the driver?
 
If these guys had no fear of breaking into somebodys house in broad daylight, whos to say they wouldnt do it again, maybe this guy did save somebodys life, he saved the life of these low lifes next victim.

Also he said they were in his yard when he went out, maybe he was going to be there next victim.




Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
3toes;
Number one, I would never take a position in front of a vehicle, that is also committing suicide. I feel my obligation would be to anyone that is injured over making a citizen arrest of the suspect. If push comes to shove in that senaro, get his plate and let him drive away and take care of any injured persons.
I like your overall answer, you have a very good common sense approach to most situations. I would not want my neighbor to endanger himself to protect my property, just be willing to call the cops and try being a good witness is best in most cases.
On the other hand, I feel that this is something that each of us has to make the decision just how far we are willing to go. Hopefully common sense will play a big part and things work out ok. When are you willing to move to be my neighbor. Of all my neighbors, I have just one that i would like to see go. You may be a good replacement for him.

RELH
 
Its easy to speculate on what one would do in this situation. I guess if someone was running away from my house with some money, I would stay behind with my family. It wouldn't be worth the risk of getting shot.

Bottom line is my family is the most import thing I have. If someone is armed trying to break into ones house, the owner has every right to protect himself.

Interesting that no one would be debating this if those idiots would not have broken into the house in the first place.
 
I was burglarized and chased a guy who was hiding in my yard. I had a 12 guage riot gun and I racked a shell which scared him out of a bush. He ran away so I did not feel threatened. If he had chosen to run towards me he would be dead.
 
Joe could be my neighbor anytime, How could anyone know that they didn't just rape and murder inside that house and not just rob it, If those guys wouldn't advanced toward a guy with a Shotgun they would still be alive and kicking, What they didn't think it was loaded or that they would scare that old man and he would hand it over to them. Some plans just don't work out.
 
I don't understand how we can possibly respond to an act like this, when all we get are the "facts" from the media. Just to clarify, most of the media is liberal, and violence of any kind is bad in their eyes, whether you are trying to protect yourself or not. They pull the same ##### in Idaho, when an officer has to shoot some #####. Fortunately I have several friends and family in law enforcement. The fact of what happened never matches with what the media reports. We weren't there, and we are getting the info the media wants us to hear.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom