Switching to Carbons

[no_draws]

I know this subject gets beat up all the time but here goes:

I'm switching to carbons this season and I'd like to get some opinions on what I should go with. I've done a little bit of homework on the subject but still don't know exactly which way to go. I was shooting 2413 xx75's at 28" length & 70lbs.

Are most carbon arrows better than the average aluminum setup?
What brand of carbons should I stay away from?
You hear the phrase "you get what you pay for" does this hold true with carbon arrows?
I've thought about going with ACC's but are they worth the cost?


JG >>-------->

 

[n2chukar]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-05 AT 04:34PM (MST)[p]Well, here is my two cents on the subject.

First of all, I have always shot Carbon Arrows so my opinion on the Carbon verses Aluminum debate is without experience and there by slanted in favor of carbon.

Having said that, I have shot three Carbons and had success with all three. I shot Carbon Express for years and I really liked the arrows. I killed two Mulies with the Carbon Express and both of them were pass throughs slightly over 50 yards. They were very light, but they did the job.

I purchased "insert tubes" to put in the arrows to make them heavier and I never liked the performance after that change.

I then went to ACC's and the performance was as good or better than the Carbon Express. My only concern with the ACC's was the "toughness" factor. I found them to fracture a bit more than than the Carbon Express which is something my buddies still don't believe.

So I switched to Gold Tips last year and I have found them to be incredibly tough and on par with the other two arrows -- perhaps slightly (and I emphasize slightly) less accurate.

I'm kind of hooked on the Gold Tips for now -- and if you want the accuracy, buy the best ones (pro, I believe, but check it out).

Regards

 

[Boskee]

Carbon express has a new arrow out called the Maxima that some friends of mine shoot and love. They are very durable and are very well made. They shot CE 3d selects previously and really like this new shaft. I personally shoot ACC's to hunt and have for years and they work great for me. IMO carbon arrows will be more durable than aluminum and can give you a trajectory improvement if selected properly. I shoot Carbon Express CXL 250's out of my 3d bow and the quality is outstanding. They are too thin walled to hunt with in my opinion. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the new Maxima shafts or Gold Tips or the offerings from Easton. Carbon arrows have come a long way and the quality and straightness are better than the aluminum arrows they are starting to replace. Just don't opt for the lightest shafts possible for hunting and I think you'll be satisfied.
The straighter shafts will yield slightly better accuracy but at a higher cost so only you can determine how much you want to pay. Good luck.

 

[c3]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-05 AT 05:23PM (MST)[p]There is no carbon arrow made that even comes close to the consistancy and perfection of XX75 or XX78 aluminum arrows.

Now with that being said there is no aluminum arrow that even comes close to the durability of high quality carbon arrows.

If you buy the highest quality carbon you can get it will not be enough different from your XX75's to see with normal hunting gear.

If you buy much smaller diameter aluminums with a much heavier wall they will come close to the durability of the good carbons.

There, now you can go figure it out

Cheers,
Pete

 

[masselkhunter]

I shot an Easton alum in 2314 for years, until I saw a slow motion video of an alum arrow being shot. It looked like a wet piece of spaghetti coming off the bow. I switched to a Carbon Express 3000 and gained 50 ft. per second.(from 237 to 287) and my groups shrank by 50%. If you shoot an alum arrow and then shoot the carbon off the same bow you will feel the difference. it is that much. (granted some of my speed came from a lighter arrow) Another thing that happens when you shoot a arrow that wobbles is the speed loss down range, because of it slowing down by the fletching to get it going straight.

 

[no_draws]

Thanks for all your views. They give me more things to consider.

Is the smaller/lighter carbon shaft a concern since your giving up kenitic energy? I mean is it better to have an arrow that travels 30-50fps faster but with less impact potential?

Is the easton software a good guide for selecting size/diameter?

JG >>-------->

 

[c3]

You won't give up any kinetic energy. A bow at a given poundage will create roughly the same KE no matter which arrow you choose in the normal relm (375 - 500 grains). One will just be faster than another.

Here's the formula:
(Weight in grains * Speed in FPS * Speed in FPS) / 450240 = KE

Momentum (weight * speed) will be lower for the lighter arrow. Some folks consider this to be more important than KE, but I personally have never had any issues with arrows between 385 and 450 grains that I've used.

If your arrows come in under 375 grains, simply put in weight tubes (look like a long straw). This should bring the weight back up to something halfway between where you've been with aluminums.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[Boskee]

No_Draws, This KE point has been brought up a lot recently to justify some writers salary. They have to come up with different ideas to write about to make a living which is good because we have something to entertain us. It does have some merit but think about this. There have been literally hundreds of thousands of animals killed on every continent with a stick bow throughout the world over the last 300 years. Little to no thought was given to KE calculations in that time frame. Custer and his boys and early European warfare prior to firearms are a testimonial to the killing power of the arrow.

The advent of the carbon arrow has brought this facet of the equation to the surface. Why? Because of the quest for speed by utilizing the lighter arrow. If you stay at 8-10 grains per inch plus a good broadhead you should be just fine for deer sized game or elk. Stay away from a thin walled shaft carbon arrow for hunting! Your speed will be reasonable and the trajectory will be fine. Pete gave you a good benchmark weight figure above and if you try to stay at or above his figure you should be fine.

Now here's a little food for thought. My wife shoots a 50 lb. bow and has a 24 1/2 draw. Her hunting arrow weighs right around 290 grains and she has killed three Bull Elk and all of them were 1 shot pass thru kills. None of the Bulls shot went more than 50-90 yards. You are going to be shooting with more draw weight and a heavier shaft so your arrow will do the job. Shot placement is the key!! Good luck!

 

[no_draws]

Thanks everyone. Appreciate the knowledge sharing.

JG >>-------->

 

[no_draws]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-05 AT 08:52PM (MST)[p]Here is a follow up question.

I just got some Gold Tip Pro Hunters (5575). In everyone's experience how important is the reccomended arrow weight for your bow? My bow says it want 420 grains but the GT suggested shaft for my draw length and weight don't add up to 420.

I have a 28" arrow length @ 69lbs.
When using the build your own feature on the GoldTip website I come up with 386 grains for my shaft selection. If I step up the next larger size I only get 404 grains. I even tried adding a half inch to the arrow but it doesn't get me much closer.

Any thoughts on this?


JG >>-------->

 

[TipMOver]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-05 AT 00:42AM (MST)[p]You're perfectly fine with the Gold Tip setup that you have. It looks like your bow manufacturer is telling you to shoot to AMO standards (6 grns per pound of draw weight). Most manufacturers will rate their bows on the IBO standard (5 grains per pound of draw weight). At IBO with your setup- 69# x 5= 345 grns. total arrow weight including the point. At AMO with your setup- 69# x 6 = 414. I personally like to be somewhere right in the middle. I shoot 71# with a 373 grn. arrow out of my Bowtech Allegiance. If your setup is too light, its a bit hard on your bow and accessories. To heavy and it'll be on the slow side. Find something in the mid range that works good and tunes well with your setup. By the way, you chose a great arrow! I've been shooting Gold Tips for the last 6-7 years and they're great!

Good luck!

 

[no_draws]

Good stuff thanks a lot.

JG >>-------->

 

[c3]

I think you'll find that the 5575's are a bit weak for 69 lbs. You might find that they become much more forgiving at about 64 or 65 lbs.

I have shot that exact arrow and length at 63 lbs for a few years. It's right at 386 grains with a 100 grain point. It zips right out there at about 250 fps. This is 60 ft/lbs of kinetic energy and plenty fast enough for any shots to 50 yards.

If you stay at 69 lbs. you'll probably find that you'll need an 80 grain point to get them to group well. This will put you in in that lower arrow weight relm for your set up. I've never been particularly happy with hunting setups that go that light. I know dozens of folks who shoot 5 grains per lb, but it is loud and not really in the sweet spot for most bows.

Just my $0.02 though,
Pete

 

[no_draws]

Why are they loud? Is it because the bow is absorbing the rest of the energy that the arrow doesn't "take" with it?

JG >>-------->

 

[sixgunn]

Good post, I don't think you will regret the switch. You shoot the exact poundage and length of arrow I do. I switched over to carbons 3 years ago and haven't looked back. I picked up speed which flattened the trajectory of my arrow. Carbons are tough but as Pete said, they are not aluminums. I like Carbons for hunting and have had good luck with them. You may try lowering your poundage as Pete suggested. It may make your groups a bit more consistent.