SW Desert issues and many other areas

theox

Very Active Member
Messages
2,278
so SUWA is trying to turn a major area of the sw desert into a wilderness. i think we need to stop this. they are trying to turn from the nev border to hamlin valley,to steamboat and all the way to four mile wash, and part of the wah wahs, into wilderness.

I think this needs to be stopped and i thought you guys may wanna know about this.
They have had meetings up there about this while keeping it on the down low and not advising ranchers and hunters and others of the meetings. (S.U.W.A.)

here is a link of the map that they are trying to turn wilderness. i do not beleive we need anymore wilderness in southern utah especially here. this area doesnt need it.

http://www.protectwildutah.org/proposal/index.html click on great basin south on left hand side of screen
 
Also henry mtns san juan book cliffs and many others 7-9 million acres of blm land will be turned wilderness
 
It is a bunch of BULL SH_T!!!! It looks like they want to turn every mountain range into wilderness in the whole state. If it happens 90% of the people will be shut out from most activities.
I noticed their ad running on TV lately showing families hiking and swimming. I think it is a little deceptive trying to make people think if we don't shut it down and protect it, it will be lost.
 
yes it is! and yeah pretty much parts of every range. 7-9 million acres of wilderness! its insane. we need to write to everyone we can to stop this
 
Thanks theox, for the heads-up!

Excellent info for us to know. Now we'd better make some calls etc and get this squelched.

Zeke
 
I know that WY SFW has been working against this effort. Do you or anyone else know if SFW is fighting it in Utah or any other state?
 
My Dad deals with this stuff for Emery County. Heres what he had to say when I talked to him about it.

"SUWA is ready to introduce "America's Red Rock Wilderness Act" to
congress again. It has been introduced to each congress for the last
20 years, and yes! it needs to be opposed.Main sponsors include
congressmen from New York and Illinois, but has many cosponsors from
the east, midwest and California. None of Utah's delegation support
it. If you can inform guys in other states to write their Sens. and
Reps. and advise them to oppose this bill it would help. It would
designate over nine million acres in Utah, 1.4 million acres in Emery
County as wilderness. Maybe half or one third of that amount actually
qualifies as wilderness.

Emery County will probably introduce its own legislation in the next
few months that would designate five or six hundred thousand acres
wilderness. Congressional hearings on the Red Rock Bill produced lots
of testimony that favored wilderness bills sponsored by counties over
the Red Rock Bill. Our potential legislation occupies 70 to 80 percent
of my time."
 
thanks for the info sneekeepete!

these guys are down right dirty and need to be stopped they change their criteria of what a wilderness should be to suit their own wants and needs this would be a bad deal for utah!
 
good luck....most of MM has defended this crap nonstop for the entire time i've been on MM...



JB
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LAST EDITED ON May-16-11 AT 06:51AM (MST)[p]Its too bad its just SUWA thats trying to defend a little wild country from the onslaught of technology, development and human greed. I believe our wildlife needs a little wildland to live in and I know I certainly do. I live a few miles from a million acres of designated wilderness, and hardly anyone around here cries, moans, and whines because they can't fire up the old fossel fuel burner to take their overweight soft bodies up there and give names to all the bucks and bulls. Some of you guys make me ill.
 
I am ok, with the designating of wildness areas that are already wilderness areas and protecting them. What I do not want or need are existing roads closed because a bunch of people back east think they should be and cutting off access to complete mountain ranges. Just my opinion
 
What's the big deal with designating some wilderness? Never been there so I won't act like I know what I'm talking about...just wondering why everyone freaks out about this. Is it about your wheelers?
 
Believe me there is a bunch of two tracks that need closing in these desert areas, but as far as closing entire mountain ranges off to access? I have never seen it happen. The people fighting for wilderness know what they are asking for will get pared down, its always that way. The opponents will bring up the handicapped and whatever else, but hopefully future generations will have some wild land to enjoy when its all done.
 
Can we recreate "wilderness"? I don't think we can. I like maintaining 'open space' as I believe that is something we all enjoy; however, I believe designating something as wild doesn't necessarily make it so. Some areas could have less roads on them but make no mistake about this; it isn't about maintaining access or anything even close. It is about restricting what activities are permitted on public lands that are suppose to be managed for multiple use. When one use gets singled out for elimination, be careful as the next use which might be eliminated could be your use. There is a reason Congress holds the ability to create wilderness areas alone. After seeing the Grand Staircase Escalante (sp?) Monument created without any consideration of Utah should make everyone nervous.
 
+1 smokestick
It isnt the protection of our wild places that should alarm us it is the restrictions they want to bring along with it all.
 
I've watches the "wilderness" ads on TV and have been wondering how the hell that cute young family got into that wilderness. Drive? Walk? NO WAY! The wilderness would LOCK OUT that family from ever seeing it! I guess that's the goal.

That's TV for ya!

Zeke
 
"The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders."
--- Edward Abbey

Have you read the Monkey Wrench Gang?..... Terry
 
Oh got it. So it's paranoia that drives this. I wonder how our grandfathers ever learned how to enjoy the outdoors. Apparently that's IMPOSSIBLE to do without an engine these days.
 
Using the outdoors is what we are accustomed to doing. Protecting the outdoors by declaring it wilderness will exclude most activities. If you own horses, etc. than it might be a great thing to lock everything up; however, how many people have access to the acreage required to own and maintain horses, etc. Even at that, I question why we would allow federal agencies to circumvent the law and create defacto wilderness areas?

How familiar are you with Y2Y?
 
I know a guy in a wheelchair. He'd love to hunt these areas. Since we're such great guys and accomodating to multi uses...can we get some ramps and sidewalks put in? I'd hate for him to miss out. Seriously? It's because not everyone owns a horse?? Socialism in the outdoors here we come.
 
Smokestick,

You wonder why WYSFW is not doing well. Any wildlife organization that cant even grasp the simple concept of wilderness benefitting wildlife isnt going to find much success. Limiting access is a major step in the right direction...much better than giving outfitters and landowners guaranteed tags to "help" and "grow" wildife on private land that we are truly locked out of. Also a much better option than making every unit in the state limited quota or cutting general seasons to 4-5 days a year.

Do you realize how little BLM land is currently designated in the United States as Wilderness? You may want to check into that before crying anymore that its all "locked up".

What makes you think you need horses to hunt, fish, trap, camp, hike, birdwatch, etc. in wilderness areas?

I dont own horses, and wilderness doesnt scare me.

A few from those worthless wilderness areas...Just sayin'.

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chevyman55. Maybe one day you will become handicapt so you can fully understand what it would be like to have limited access to everything. Buzzh. If your not afraid of the wild then why not leave your rifle, backpack, binos, & man made cloths behind and really take on the wild like a wild man. Smokestick. While I don't always agree with ya I'm 100% In your corner on this one.


Justin Richins
R&K Hunting Company Inc.
www.thehuntingcompany.com
 
Justin,

I know quite a few people with handicaps and I dont know a single one that whines about wilderness.

Seems those with the "handicaps" found above the neck do the most complaining about wilderness designation...if only obviously.

Oh, and I'm not required to leave my boots, clothes, rifle, or pack behind when I enter a wilderness area...so not sure why you'd ask such a dumb question?

Can you point out in the Wilderness Act where it states any such thing?
 
Buzzed,

Did you really state that you would like to see access further limited?

Your quote: "Limiting access is a major step in the right direction...much better than giving outfitters and landowners guaranteed tags to "help" and "grow" wildife on private land that we are truly locked out of."

You are so dead set against WY SFW that you have your own perception of reality. Landowners already have guaranteed tags and the public derives no benefit from that so you can keep advocating that we do nothing to increase access for residents to private lands, then start adding further restrictions on public lands and see how that helps with access.

The reality is that wild lands designation will not create wilderness. It will only limit access.

Public lands should be managed for multiple uses; otherwise, who gets to determine which uses are appropriate and which uses are no longer acceptable for the public. In case you are unaware, hunters currently make up less than 5% of the total US population. Wyoming already has public land areas where you are no longer allowed to discharge firearms. We have seen prohibitive restrictions imposed on state lands as well.

Wilderness isn't worthless; however, everything should not be wilderness either.

Just for the record, like it even matters with you, WY SFW has never pushed nor asked for state limited quota or cutting general seasons to 4-5 days a year. In fact, we have been pushing and asking for more opportunities where the resources can sustain them. A 7 day season only allows one weekend for our youth to experience the great outdoors and become hooked on hunting.

Tell me who is fighting to protect your hunting, fishing and trapping heritage. Obviously, your hate for WY SFW runs so deep that you make up your own facts about what we have done. No where has WY SFW caused any local sportsman to be harmed or caused them to loose any hunting, fishing or trapping opportunities. You probably don't even see the threats to our heritage.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-16-11 AT 10:19PM (MST)[p]Smokestick,

The only way to make sure that limited quota areas, shorter seasons, and less opportunity dont happen is to limit access on whats left of our public lands.

Take a look at some areas in Wyoming with TONS of easy road/atv access in general quota areas with mainly public land...and see what you have for season lengths...see what you have for bull-to-cow and buck-to-doe ratios. See what the average age is for an animal harvested in those type of units.

Tell me its not easy access that is crushing those areas, causing shortened seasons, and creating more demand for LQ areas.

Also, tell me how you improve the hunting situation in those units?

Theres only a few choices there buckwheat...either limit access via road closures and wilderness designation, shorten seasons, or make them limited quota.

Or you can choose to keep allowing a herd of atv's on every ridge, watch every 2-point in the unit get blasted in 5-day seasons, and keep that "heritage" alive. What goes on in say deer unit 82 or unit 100 has nothing to do with "heritage"...and everything to do with a joke, mainly because thats exactly what it is.

Just another few questions, which you wont answer...how again is WYSFW pushing for transferable landowner tags and guaranteed outfitter tags increasing access to private lands? How is further commercialization of the sport helping to keep youth involved?

You can BS yourself all you want, but SFW is not about the average hunter in WY, never has been, and never will be. YOU and YOUR group pushed for transferable LO tags and also guaranteed outfitter tags. You also FAILED to support a stream access law in Wyoming as well...something that would have opened up thousands of miles of river/stream access in Wyoming to the public. How can you fail to support that...but claim to care about public access?

WYSFW likes to talk a good game...but when the rubber meets the road...you kick the average sportsmen to the curb.

Congratulations!
 
I believe Buzz means motorized access, and I agree with him.We have too much motorized access now and with the constantly increasing population, and ever increasing technology, the more wildland we can protect the better. Wilderness designation is part of the multiple use concept, multiple use doesn't mean, every square ft of land used for every single thing, get real. I know lots of areas where public lands are used for mining and drilling, with no other uses allowed, thats multiple use also. Its hard to believe modern people are so soft that they believe your "locked out" if you can't drive a machine in an area, how sad.
 
Buzzy,

Look at those wildenress kills. Wow. You are just an all around Daniel Freaken Boone. Not sure how your harvests fit into this conversation. Glad to know that more wilderness fits your personal interests even though it may not fit for the majority of us.

I would also like a little more wildenress, but I am totally against government making these large scale decisions that fly in the face of the majority. If you don't already realize it, that should scare you.

Excavator
 
Excavator,

Wilderness fits everyone...if they only have the first clue.

Large scale decisions???

Laffin'...
 
Buzz,

In the realm of hunting, I would also prefer more areas where people that are hard core can gain an advantage through their hard work, preparation, and dedication. That concept makes sense to me.

However, like I said in the last post, their is a bigger picture to be considered here. That picture is government bureaucrats and politicians making decisions such as this without the correct public input.

I understand and mostly agree with your mindset from a hunting perspective, but I just think maybe you should take a few minutes to think about this specific scenario from a broader perspective.
 
Utah can't have any more Wilderness areas because being the Utard that I'am, I need to be able to pull my 38' fifth wheel with my monster diesel truck while towing my trailer full of 4-wheelers where ever I want. Although I'm not officially handicapped, I am fat and lazy, so I'm going to need to ride my 900cc monster Quad to be able to hunt. I am also to lazy to teach my kids how to hunt by looking for tracks and other sign, so they are going to need to be able to ride Quads where ever they want too.


No estas en mexico ahora, entonces escoja tu basura
chancho sucio.
 
If I was in that situation, I would be happy enough knowing those places exist, without ever seeing it with my own eyes. Some things are bigger than you and I my friend.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-16-11 AT 08:12PM (MST)[p]Excavator,

I believe I am looking at the "broader perspective". Roughly 169 MILLION acres of BLM are not in any kind of Wilderness designation.

Meanwhile, a measly 8.6 million acres of BLM are designated wilderness.

Yet, many on this thread are crying like spoiled children that its "all locked up". Really? All locked up huh?

Of all the crap policy that comes from the government bureaucrats and politicians...this isnt one. There is no question that more wild lands need protecting.

How much public opinion is considered when the BLM leases the living $hit out of their remaining 169 million acres to cattle ranchers and oil developers???

Just sayin'.
 
Although I do believe in the concept of wilderness areas and feel the current amount of it is reasonable and more is not going to hurt and may help (to a point) I fully understand concern by others.

Buzz I don't see any pics of young children in there, do ya have any and do you take them into the wilderness.

Also I gotta disagree on the locked out theory of yours as if you are nonresident in WY you are locked out of wilderness areas if you cannot afford a guide.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
The bottom line is it should be a state decision. Guys back east should have no say in what land is labeled wilderness. That is the biggest issue, no local input on the decisions being made by politicians
 
As usual,Buzz is looking at things through his perspective only(as are some of the others)."It works for me,so it should work for everyone else."While you are still young and in good shape,wilderness is not daunting.To older or less physically fit folks,it essentially locks them out!Don't make the mistake of comparing what everyone else thinks or does should be the same as what you think or do.If you are not young and fit,then you just don't get to enjoy wilderness,I guess?I totally agree that wildlife needs sanctuary;and I totally agree that we don't need a road on every ridgetop.IMO,this is about the Federal Govt stepping in with thier heavy hand and forcing thier agenda upon the states.Kinda reminds me of wolf introduction.People who will NEVER walk in wilderness(let alone lay eyes on it)are the people enacting the legislation.I may never set foot in the SW Desert area-probably won't at my age.Why should I have any say-so whatsoever about making this a wilderness area??
 
I couldn't agree more with BuzzH. From listening to the belly aching from the opponents to this idea you would think that the SW Desert was the last hunting spot left in Utah. It appears to me that those against this are opposed simply because it's an idea from SUWA or BLM. Argue against it on it merits, not some paranoid idea that wilderness advocates or the government is out to get you, or that you can no longer take your kids hunting or that those in wheelchairs can't hunt any more.

All this concern about losing access or no hunting future for your kids is a backwards arguement. Look at all the great habitat in Utah that has been turned into subdivision or ranchettes. This is going to continue. If Utah does not start preserving area as wilderness or some other mechanism to stop development then there will be no where left to hunt.

The way you improve hunting today is by limiting access or limiting hunters. It seems that too many want neither.
 
Utah has enough wilderness. I like getting away from people as well.
Dispite what Buzz says too much wilderness is not a friend to wildlife.

!. You can't do any wildlife projects.

2. You can't do ariel gunning of predators.

3. You can't do any water projects. Utah DWR and sportsmen tried to put in a guzzler in a wilderness area in Utah. This would of help bighorn sheep, deer, birds, antelope,etc. We were threatened with a lawsuit if it happened. They said, A guzzler is man made. It's not natural.

4. Wilderness shuts 90% of the public from using it. You can not even ride a mountain bike in wilderness. Like mentioned. Unless you have horses, or can back pack a long ways, you are not going to be able to use wilderness. It shuts out the average hunter. It shuts out the elderly, and handicap, young kids.

5. If you have lots of wilderness, you have a large area to put wolves, and less predator control.

It's good to have some wilderness. We have enough in Utah. We don't need some guy in New York to tell us we need more. Make some calls.
 
BuzzH,
I've backpack hunted from AZ to NWT and most places in between so I have a little experience.
If you're hunting "wilderness" how the hell do you get all the elk meat back to your house? Do you waste a bunch of meat?
I packed out 2 elk last year and was damn glad I wasn't hunting any farther from a road. I wouldn't hunt elk in an area where the meat would go to waste!
I don't like ALL the roads that we have but I also don't like people dictating policy who have never been in the State!

Nice animals by the way.

Zeke
 
Buzz, the pics of your dink bulls are proof wilderness isn't that great.
I love Wy. wilderness and how it has us non res locked out. Plick!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-17-11 AT 12:02PM (MST)[p]wilderness in the form of 9 million acres is not good!losing rights to public land is not good! especially when it comes from the same people that are pro wolf, anti hunting, anti gun etc. give them there inch in limiting motorized vehicles and before long they will be trying to limit our hunting rights etc. many of the areas lack habitat to even provide enough wildlife to drive a hunter to hike 15 miles into a dry hot desert w existing roads chained and railed meadows and few watering areas to make this worth being wildernss. much of the reason that there is any wild life at all in the areas is ranchers, they developed water in many areas that have been without it. so now you have man made water developments existing roads and chained areas. these are not wilderness. im talking major chunks of land that i have spent oodles of time in that there is no way in he11 i would wanna hike 15 miles too
there is already plenty of wilderness in utah that if you are wanting to use it its there.
just because you guys may not like atvs doesnt mean someone else doesnt. i prefer to hike myself but there are plent yof people that dont deserve to lose there access to these areas just so someone can walk around without seeing a road. being wilderness is not gonna make these areas more lush or wildlife abundant.
its funny cause i can find plenty of places already that i can hike without being bothered by vehicles that are non wilderness. i just think its nuts to give up your rights so these fufu loving tards out east can decide how we use our lands. if they want wilderness so bad why didnt they set some aside back east instead all there habitat has been made into cities we these hypocritcal DA people live!
dont give an inch on these wilderness areas because they will take a mile and you know it! look at the wolf situation they are decietful and manipulative. they want you to think hunting will be better but heck its all about management. look at the bucks coming off the henrys the strip etc. look at the bulls coming off all our elk units that have evil roads going thru them and atv and trucks driving down them..... now look at those raghorn bulls that buzz has shot in wilderness areas. what would you rather hunt? congrats on the bulls but just saying it doesnt look anymore qualtiy to me than non wilderness areas
 
I would rather hunt those raghorn bulls in the wilderness every year than wait a lifetime for the chance at a 400" bull. Thats exactly what I do every year and I have a great time doing it. To each his own. Thats why it's a good idea to have both.

Quality hunting still boils down to limited access, limited tags or both. Who knows, maybe you could draw a tag in some of the better units in Utah more than once a lifetime if it was a bit more limited in access. I don't know, just a darn good thought.

If this area is such a worthless place for hunting then why do you care what it gets turned into?

No one is advocating the entire state be turned into wilderness but don't run scared because the idea has been brought up. Look at the area being proposed and determine if its a worthwhile proposal. Stop with the anti-hunter, anti-gun paranoia. It doesn't make for a strong arguement. If you have a stronger arguement then make it, people will listen. I actually think the habitat enhancement arguement you were making has some merit to it.

The reason people back East want to turn areas in the West into wilderness is because they screwed up a long time ago and didn't do it back East when they had the chance.
 
You should think long and hard about it, if you are for a desert (or any dry area) being put into wilderness status.
They (those people pushing for it) will strip out water after that disignation.
This is a fact.
And it is one of the most Disgusting things you'll ever deal with.
Example. Water has been there for 100 years, area goes to wilderness. No more water. gone, dust. Even if you are happy about the road being gone, do you really want to see the water gone???????
Think about it.
 
1st of anti hunting and anti gun is not paranoia! its being pushed and worked on by many. dont be naive

2nd its not worthless hunting areas now but if water is takin it will go down hill. the deer population on sw des is very low becasue of habitat lost to pinyon and juniper encroachment. also mustangs on the unit allowed to go virtually unmanaged, elk numbers are fair but definently wont increase with wilderness areas especially considering the little bit of mustang managemtn they do achieve will be eliminated because they use motorized vehgilces and helicopters to round them up. water will be scarce

3rd i was stating that quality is not any better in wilderness, its the management of the animals. as well as restoring habitat not preserving.

4th we lose our rights to people that probably never have and never will set foot in utah and have absolutley no ties to utah. it would be like me proposing and setting the rules of your home for what your family can do and cant do.

5th did i mention we lose our rights, give them an inch they will take a mile. regardless if you think its paranoia if they manage to get millions of acres of wilderness set aside they may try to weed out hunting considering many of the people and organizations already try for that they will keep pushing.
 
1. Don't agree. A BLM decision for wilderness designation is no more anti-gun and anti-hunting anymore than it is pro-gun, pro-hunting.

2 and 3. I think you make a strong point here. Definetly worth considering. Still don't agree but you gave me something to think about.

4 and 5. What right are you losing? Using mechanised transportation is not a right. Your analogy of setting rules for my house is false since my house is private property. BLM is federal land and belongs to all of us. Doesn't matter if they use it or not. The Feds already determine where you can and cannot drive. Closing a road is not a lose of rights. Thinking it is your right to have the rules work best for you sounds like talk from the welfare state. From your previous posts this does not sound like your way of thinking so please explain.
 
losing motorized access is taking from atv enthusiasts etc which have just as much right to the land/trails as hunters and backpackers.
we are losing our rights to land. thehy start by taking a little and keep inching and inching.
also mining will not be allowed. we wont be allowed to explore renewable engery, wind water geo.
wont be able to drill for oil etc

the feds do not determine where we can and cannot drive? where are you getting this? on blm lands are not restricted from motorized vehicles.
regardless if u like atvs or not many peopl e do and deserve public land use too.

tell me aside from selfish needs how will wilderness benefit anyone seriously!? these lands are public lands and are already protected from housing developments etc. with or with out wilderness these lands will remain public but wlderness will depend on how restricted we are.


i see more cons than pros.
 
Theox,
You are 100% correct.

Mulecreek and Buzz you are wrong. Having MORE large sections of wilderness in Utah is bad for wildlife and hunting.

Where are 90% of hunters who don't have horses going to hunt. Other public places will be more crowded, and then more tags may be cut.

The federal government will take out of our hands our ablility to improve land both in habitat, control predators, and water for wildlife. If you don't have water you don't have wildlife, end of story. Everything can't be natural and left to nature alone in Utah.

I agree, you can restrict access and close some roads to help out wildlife. Idaho has done this the past few years. This can improve habitat and quality of hunting. Many places there are too many roads. I would agree, so close some roads.

Blocking out the majority 90% of the people, so everything can be wild is a bad idea. More wilderness in Utah is a bad idea.
 
Riding an ATV is not a right. It's just that simple. Not being allowed to ride an ATV is not a restriction of rights.

I work in the mining industry. I have since I was 18 years old. And in all honesty there are some places that we do not need to build a mine or a wind farm, or solar array or drill a well.

The BLM is a federal agency. On BLM land they get to determine where we can and cannot drive. Same for forest service land. I have no beef with ATV riders. I don't have them but I am fine with those that do. It's not about ATV's it's about having some wild lands.

If you don't already know how wilderness benefits people then why do you spend time outdoors?

You are flat out wrong thinking that just because its BLM land means that it will never be developed. The mines I have worked at are on BLM land. Drilling occurs on BLM land all the time. Both are neccasary and damn good things but not neccesary on every square inch of the country. Plenty of industry happens on BLM land. Heck, the federal government makes a pile of money off the coal, metals and oil that I and many others work hard to get out of the ground.

And to answer your question of "how much wilderness do we really need"? That's a different answer for each of us. Personnally, I would like more than what we currently have. I'll let you know when I think we should stop.
 
this thread wasnt intended to sit and argue about it but to draw attention for the people that didnt know that there is a proposal to lose some rights on 9 million acres of public lands . Im not gonna continue to argue with you about whether its right or wrong cons and pros. i know enough people out there would like to know this is taking place. if you are for more wilderness thats fine thats your right and opinion, but i just dont think turning 9 million acres into wilderness while many utahns have no idea of it is fair.
 
if your a miner you shouldnt want 9 million more acres of wilderness. do you really think that we are going to mine and exploit all of our blm heck no!

riding atvs on public land is a right! its the right to mulitple use atvs are extremly popular we dont need to cut 9 million acres from that right.

regardless if you like or dislike mining it is a necessity of human life. why lock up land we can potentially need. i think there are places like arches that are great for it. but so much of this land in the proposal is just not needed in wilderness areas imo

yea i need for you to explain what the benefits of wilderness are please. i love the outdoors and i get along just wonderfully in non wilderness areas.

like stated just before this maybe close a few roads yes but close them all NO!
 
Heck, I was just starting to enjoy the arguement. I agree we have different opinions and sounds like neither of us is going to budge. It's not about right or wrong, its about different opinions. Even though we both know I am more right. ;) Thanks for bringing this to my attention and have a great day and good luck this season.
 
If more wilderness means more road closures I'm for it. Heaven knows we have plenty of roads in UT. One reason I love to hunt CO is the amount of wilderness available for hunting is substantial. If a guy wants to distance himself from the crowds he can do it. We don't have nearly that many options here in UT.The only thing that makes me cautious is the left wing liberal whackos who are behind this, almost always have hidden agendas, and are all together against hunting. On a good note, I believe fewer roads means more animals surive which translates into an older age class of animals and better hunting altogether.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-17-11 AT 05:28PM (MST)[p]I think it's safe to say that some fellow hunters don't believe everything is measured in dollar signs and further more, land does not have to be "USED" every which way in order to be valuable. If you don't know by now what the benefits of wilderness are...you never will. I'd have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
This thread is as predictable as it gets.

First the 'tards complain that only people living in Utah should have a voice in FEDERAL LAND MANAGEMENT, which is wrong-headed and a joke.

What part of FEDERAL LAND is so hard to comprehend? Every United States Citizen has an absolute right to voice their opinion on how THEIR FEDERAL land is managed. It has not a single thing to do with what state you call home.

Then theres the comparison of LQ areas where a few bull tags are given and if the average 'tard is lucky he'll get to hunt one of those easy access areas once in a life-time, to hunting OTC areas in wilderness areas that I can hunt every year.

Put your LQ easy to access premier bull units in Utah on an OTC tag with a 30 day archery season and 15 day rifle season and see how that herd is doing in a years time.

Lets compare apples to apples...not apples and aardvarks.

Carry on with the BS....its good for a laugh.
 
Buzz you never answered my questions above.

Do you have kids and if so do you take them into the wilderness? With or without horses?

"What part of FEDERAL LAND is so hard to comprehend? Every United States Citizen has an absolute right to voice their opinion on how THEIR FEDERAL land is managed. It has not a single thing to do with what state you call home."

Then why are all Non-Residents who can't afford a guide locked out of tons of OUR Federal Land in WY?

Nice animals by the way but I have seen people just as successful on non-wilderness public land.

But I do agree you can't compare animals taken on LQ to those taken on land you can hunt every year.

I do not have an issue with wilderness but do believe it has inherent qualities that are very limiting to the average family hunter. Not prohibitive (except WY) but limiting which has pros and cons IMO.

More to a point might be good but more is not ALWAYS better.IMO

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
Its seems those granola crunching New Yorkers care more about wildlife, wild country, and millions of unborn Americans, than a lot of Utahns do. "Im glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in"-Aldo Leopold
 
Huntindad-I live right next to a very large wilderness area and Ive seen 5 year olds and 80 year olds enjoying the land, but what I really like is seeing young people in their prime having all that country to test themselves in. Im a little past my prime now, but I couldn't imagine taking that opportunity away just because I will be gone someday. Maybe you should think about your kids and their development, its called letting go and giving.
 
I am a big believer in wilderness areas. I see the biggest animals in them, both deer and elk.

One thought though, and I am not from Utah btw so have no clue what the area is like that they are proposing to turn into wilderness. If it is desert then maybe wilderness isn't the best idea. Just make it a non motorized use area instead. That way you can still develop the water to benefit wildlife and humans.

And for the guys that want there kids to experience that area they can ride bikes or pull them on carts.

Wilderness isn't always the best, but its a hell of a lot better then roads everywhere imo.
 
This thread highlights the problem, IMO.

This is not just taking place in Utah but throughout all BLM administered lands, as directed by President Obama.

The thread highlights the complexity of managing public lands for diverse uses and sometimes conflicting uses. While I agree that our public lands belong to the collective body of citizens, I still believe when federal government gets involved things tend to be less flexible, more costly, and common sense seems to be absent almost every decision. I believe that local people are more directly impacted by those decisions and without a doubt, my bias is that locals are probably going to be more likely to be flexible and reasonable when decisions are made.

Our public lands have been managed for multiple use for as long as most of us can remember. Letting those lands be out into single use should concern everyone. If we allow one use to become prohibited, then where does it stop? While I agree that we don't need to place mines, well pads, wind farms, etc. on every piece of public land, those activities are necessary for our country. Finding a balance is always more challenging but letting the BLM designate wilderness is already against the law. Only Congress can designate wilderness. The BLM already has a process whereby all of the opinions and 'good discussions' similar to those on MM can take place.

It has already been said, you can limit roads and place a lot of restrictions on uses but designating something as "wild lands" has consequences that I see as being bad. Mainly, we are now allowing the BLM (none of which have been elected or are accountable to the people) to designate "wild lands". Can someone identify where the current process has not worked for maintaining multiple use of our public lands? Why is there then a need to deviate from that process?

I do believe that one thing we will all agree on is the need to maintain as much "open space" as possible, as that is where most of our adventures are etched into our memories and our children get a brief moment to see if they could be self-reliant.
 
Piper I have hunted a wilderness near me and have never seen 5 year olds or 75 year olds in the interior of it and probably won't soon and since I hunt primarily with my family and have a 6 year old who even though he is an energetic little beast cannot hike into the country I am talking about I will be taking a few years off of the wilderness and since I have 3 bad discs in my lower back that seem to be getting worse I may not be able to take him in there when he is old enough.

As far as young people having enough places to test themselves, just because it is designated a wilderness doesn't suddenly make it more of a test because if that is the use you choose for the land (test) then you simply leave all the things you cannot take to the wilderness and go test yourself but the reverse is not true therefore the land is limited by designation. Argue that the experience will be more remote and wild but don't act as if the terrain gets steeper and harder to walk just because its a wilderness.

Buzz I am still waiting for a response.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
Piper, You are a moron! Reading all your posts I have always viewed you as a granola cruncher. Your last post just sums it up.
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LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 09:55AM (MST)[p]Hunitindad,

I'll answer your questions...and you wont be liking the answers, just keep that in mind, while I'm handing you your a$$.

First of all, you arent "locked out" of any wildnerness in Wyoming or anywhere else. You're free to come here and hunt, fish, trap, hike, camp, 365 days a year 24-7. For big-game there is also 3 ways for you to hunt in Wilderness, like you stated, you can hire a guide. The second route to take is to have a friend in WY that is willing to obtain a FREE resident guide license available to all WY residents, and they can accompany you on the hunt(s) of your choosing. The third is to move to Wyoming and gain residency.

With those available options, I refuse to, and wont, listen to the whining about being locked out of wilderness in Wyoming. Its simply not true and a red herring.

As to the questions of kids, no I dont have kids, but do have 2 nephews that are both under 7 years old.

I knew where you were going with the question when you asked it, and your last post confirmed it.

Frankly, because I dont have kids, I should be a self-indulgent A-hole and shouldnt give a big rats-a$$ about anyone but myself when it comes to hunting, fishing, and my ability to access FEDERAL lands. I should be on the side of those that want a few miles of road and easy access on every last section of public land. Looking long-term that is what would ultimately benefit my personal situation the best...the hell with the integrity of the land...the hell with future generations, its all about me.

I fully realize that at any moment, I can suffer a disability that would EXCLUDE me from gaining access to wilderness and roadless country. I also fully know that the day is fast approaching when I physically wont be able to get into the same country I do now. But, where I differ, is that I'm not so selfish that I think I should be able to get there forever, despite my age or physical ability. I also dont think I should be granted special privileges because I'm old, have/dont have kids, am fat, lazy, or own ATV's. Just knowing that wild lands are there is enough for me, I dont have to be physically present there to enjoy its existence.

However, because I happen to care about wild lands and want future generations to enjoy them, I find myself on the side of advocating for more wilderness.

Currently, less than 4% of BLM lands are in any kind of designated Wilderness. Meaning that 96% are open to some sort of motorized access, grazing, mining, and other "multiple use" catagories. I disagree that protecting 4% of 169 million acres is "too much" and "we dont need more". If you'd bother to look at the areas that are designated Wilderness, you'd find that the areas under current designation are largely those areas with little value when it comes to extractive uses. In other words, the BLM and U.S. Forest Service have done an incredible job of protecting rock and ice. I'm of the opinion that a diversity of landscapes and ecological areas should be designated, not just areas where no extractive uses are viable.

If you and your kids cant find somewhere to recreate on the 169 million acres of BLM lands in the lower 48, you're a sorry excuse for a parent. Further, you also must lack the problem solving capabilites of a turnip.

I'm not, and will never be willing to give up the sliver of public lands in wilderness desigantion currently, so you and your 3 bad discs along with your kids can gain easier access to it. Further, I wont miss any opportunity to increase the amount of wilderness designation to something more meaningful than a pittance of public lands. I owe it to future generations, I owe it to the unselfish, I owe it the wildlife, and even further, I owe it to the land itself.

You have yourself a good day now.
 
I really have to agree with BuzzH on most everything he has posted regarding access, minus handing you your ass, LOL! Access, IMHO, needs to be restricted in a lot more areas by either creating more wilderness areas and/or restricting motor vehicles in others. I feel that the easiest way to do what we are talking about in a lot of areas is just by closing roads to motorized vehicles and strict enforcement of those closures. It would seem that this would be the easiest way to protect the environment, allow more animals to grow to maturity, and not continue to place more areas into LE tag units. This would still allow the use of bikes, game carts, etc., that are illegal in wilderness areas. At 64 years old by this Fall season, I'm a lot closer than Buzz probably is to not being able to use those wilderness areas without at least using a horse. However, I started hunting when I was 6, so I think I've had plenty of good times in the past and am willing to lose something, whether it be by wilderness designation or road closures, in order to pass my good times on to our future generations. I know that the public land I hunt in Wyoming every year would be ruined in one short season if motor vehicles were allowed off the main roads. That is the reason we hunt it and are very successful by getting back away from the roads on foot and I've gone even further back in on horseback a couple times, all DIY. Meanwhile, every year I hear guys griping about no animals in the area and it's because they either road hunt or don't get out of site of their vehicles! It's a fact that the majority of hunting is done close to road accessible land and it's too bad that a large percentage of our population, hunters and nonhunters alike, are so out of shape nowadays that they think a long walk is from the couch to the frig. at halftime of the ballgame they're watching!!!
 
Huntindad4, I have seen kids and old people in wilderness areas. A 7 year old boy and his 9 old sister were backpacked in 10 miles with grandma and grandpa. Got to show the kids their first bears through my spotting scope.

My 3 year old nephew also went on an elk hunt with us last year in a wilderness area. We hiked in every day and he didn't hike in very far. But I know he had a heck of a lot better time walking in the woods then riding in his car seat looking out the window.


I do think wilderness areas lock out the weak minded though. You can't be a candy a** thats for sure.

Here is a pic of my nephew and a bull from that hunt.


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My non-res point of view. Any time the motivated enviromental left gets involved with land use the sportsmen suffers. Wilderness is important to all of us hunters and has it's place. But what is the true agenda here? Wilderness to me in WY means keep out or hire an outfitter who lobied to keep me out!
It's not outside the box to believe Utah might chose to do the same some day. The threads in New Mexico are full of anti-NR chatter as they reconstructed there tag qouta system. More limitations on access, season dates, camping, oil & gas production, mineing, ranching and grazing by ranchers could change the deal for the sportsman.
They tried to make all of Northern Maine into a wilderness aera years ago. Loggers & Snowmobilers rallied and so far it has not happened. The local people must be considered and any changes should come from that process, not the eastern baised enviros. As a resident of a state with no elk,Moose,mule deer, or goats my hunting opportunites are going to be limited by all the fish and game dept.of the west. As economic opportunity is limited and restricted by such actions, the tax base shrinks.
Locals children may move out to find employment shrinking the pool even more. The chokeing effect on hunting will occur in some form. Higher fees & fewer tags I'd guess. If folks can't get within 30 miles of a unit, how many tags do you think might be granted? Outfitted hunts with horses are great but who can afford $4500-$6000 on every hunt? Some of us crazy folks like to hunt own our own, what about them? Once we reduce the sport to a lark for the elite rich the game is over!
At this point the wildlife will suffer ultimately. This has happened in Africa and elseware. Hunters dollars will dry up and all decitions will not have their input. We will have the Discovery Channel to watch and not much else. I hope I'm dead by then. Please hang tough my western friends! And if you could ....leave the door open a crack for the DIY like me and my grandson!

Pick-a-Spot and Burry-it-Deep
Griz
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 02:00PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 01:58?PM (MST)

Wilderness: It's a great idea when it's in someone elses backyard!

I'm alway curious and surprised when I see big animals in a TRUCK and they were taken in the wilderness???? What the hell is a truck doing in the wilderness? Why don't we have everyone WALK from home to hunt and fish. Ridiculous? You're right? It is ridiculous. The whole notion of total protectionism is ridiculous! If we "protect" things too much then nobody will care about them. This "wilderness" will cease to have relevence except just simply exist. I don't need to consume to care but look what total protection has done in the past. "Total protection equals extinction"

We get to hunt today BECAUSE OF HUNTERS, not inspite of hunters. We have land to use BECAUSE WE RESPONSIBLY USE IT not because of total protectionism!
Think about it kids, if everything was wilderness, hunting as we know it would not exist. Only an elite few could ever go IF the antis hadn't already locked us out because of our apathy!
Don't give it all away just because you like the novel notion of "total wilderness".

Zeke

PS: I think there are too few wild places and way too many roads for quads and trails for horses BUT THE WAY IS NOT WILDERNESS! We lose our opportunity to enhance habitat/water resources for true wildlife management. I hate to see our options limited with the stroke of someone else's pen!

Edits: damn spelling, well, you get the drift
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 02:26PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 02:24?PM (MST)

We are so fuggin' far from "if everything is wilderness", and "total wilderness" its laughable.

How is less than 4% of BLM lands being wilderness even close to what you're suggesting???

How is wilderness "total protectionism"?

I find humor and hypocracy in this quote, "I hate to see our options limited with the stroke of someone else's pen!"

Strange...but how do you explain "someon elses pen strokes" that have turned 96% of BLM lands into well pads, roads, wind farms, and cow $hit?

How are those activities on BLM lands NOT limiting my options?

What a joke.
 
Just a small bite at a time buzz, that's all they want!

You make some pretty compelling arguments but you attiude about how stupid the rest of us are is wearing a bit thin. (oh, I'm sure you don't care so don't bother saying so)

I appreciate your viewpoint but not your "down the nose" at the other opinions! What happened to respect for others?

I even liked your animals but still wondering how you remove all the meat w/o horses. I spent 2 days backpacking 2 elk last year and was glad there was a road when I got down.

Best to ya, Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 02:39PM (MST)[p]"still wondering how you remove all the meat w/o horses."

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MRelk.jpg


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I don't see the whole elk Buzz!!!!!!! (PLEASE, no more pix of you being a bad-a)

You should take a deep breath and lighten up a little.

You're not the only hard-a$$ in the world bro.

I'm glad you backpack. I've done a "bit" too but I'm sure you care nothing of me or my hunts. It's not the only way to hunt though.

It sounds like it's impossible for you to see (not even agree but just see) someone else viewpoint.

I'm sure I can't change your mind. I'm just throwing out another opinion.

May your legs stay hard and you attitude soften!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 03:14PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 03:09?PM (MST)

I see the other viewpoint almost daily...well pads, roads, illegal roads, wind farms, over-grazing, weed infestations, erosion, siltation, etc. etc. All shrinking whats left of wild places. The other viewpoint aint workin'...not by a long shot.

I dont form my opinion on guesses and assumptions...but rather 25 years of hands on experience professionally and recreationally...with a healthy dose of science and education backing up same.

Seems a majority of those in opposition of wilderness are basing their opinions on their lack of ambition, understanding of public lands, and fat-a$$es being glued to the seat of an ATV.

Its sad, it really is.
 
BuzzH---I absolutely loved your picture reply to that last question!!! Last year it took my buddy and myself four friggin trips over a day and a half to get that 357 3/8" bull he shot back to the truck and we weren't close to any "wilderness area" either! I also have to laugh at the mention of a big animal in the truck along with the wilderness comment. It's very easy to see that the bull's head/cape were backpacked out to that truck where I have to assume it was legally parked at a trailhead for Pete's sake! The comment sounded like he was calling the guy who took that bull with a picture of the 3 year old nephew a liar and that it was killed in someone's back yard. I think I understand where some people may be coming from in regards to making more wilderness areas, but they need to look at the big picture. That is that there is presently only about 4-5% of our public land designated as wilderness, so it seems there are an awful lot of people making a mountain out of a molehill like there will be no hunting areas left for the "average" sportsman if that percentage goes up. By "average" I'm probably talking about 90+% of the people that go out for several days a year and call themselves "hunters" nowadays. That is one reason I have been happy to have found this website a few months ago because it appears the majority of the persons that are members here are spending a lot of quality days or even months like myself, rather than time counted in hours, in pursuit of their passion for the outdoors!!! I think a lot of it just boils down to the fact that there are just too damn many people in our society now that want the easy way out and hunting is just one of many things that applies to.
 
I can see your viewpoint and I appreciate the respect that I've earned from involvement in the hunting/gun/outdoors for well over 4 decades! Now I'm showing my age!

I do understand where you're coming from and it makes more sense when I'm not being told how damn stuid I am!

I too feel like we could do more. I'm just not sold on the "wilderness" designation. It resembles the endangered species act. The strokes are too broad for my liking because once in place it's impossible to make responsible changes.

I like your passion! I actually like you photos too, I was just being a bit petty!

Best, Zeke
 
Well topgun,
We find ourselves on opposite sides of the fence again. My comment didn't call anyone a liar but simply to point out that this supposed "wilderness" HAS ROADS TO it that folks must use. I've been in wilderness, as in, NO ROADS, and the little nephew would not be there nor would there be a truck.

Good FS land is exactly what's being depicted. Wilderness with some roads!

This wilderness is on the fringe of civilization or the truck wouldn't have been in the pix with the cape attached.

What do ya think?

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 03:50PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 03:47?PM (MST)

Zeke,

What other choice do you think we have to protect wildlands?

Anything less than designating wilderness leaves more than just a little wiggle-room for the things that have, and currently are, ripping the West apart.

We've compromised ourselves out of 96%+ of BLM lands...all in the name of progress and access.

I'm done compromising away what little is left...time for the other team to compromise.

Oh, and Zeke, another bit of trivia for you...there is NOWHERE in the lower 48 that is beyond 21 air miles from a vehicle accessible road. Many roads are right on the wilderness boundaries as are many trailheads. Take a look at a map sometime, there are roads everywhere. The National Forest System alone has 380,000 miles of existing/open roads. I wouldnt even want to guess how many miles of BLM roads there are.

For the record, I was born and grew up within 40 miles of 4 wilderness areas and multiple primitive areas. I remember quite well spending a lot of time in them before I was able to hunt (12 years old). I remember my Dad taking my brother and I into the Selway/Bitterroot to look at Mountain Goats when we were 7-8 years old.
 
Thanks topgun. It did kind of sound like that to me also.

Here is the way I look at wilderness. I have had the best hunts and best memories from hunts that take place in a wilderness area. When I am 75 hopefully I will still be able to hike. If not, I would still rather have great memories from the hunts I do in a wilderness area, then the memories I have from the times I have hunted non wilderness areas.
 
Like I said, I like your passion and your points.
The world is full of compromise, some good, some bad.

You and I won't totally agree and we won't be the policy makers. We can be a voice of reason though.

The FS has been closing some roads and quad tracks in some key areas. I want this to continue and I hope they enforce it. I don't think enough has been done. Habitat restoration projest have taken place, more should be done yet under "wilderness" it would be impossible. Water is a huge issue in Ut so water source developement is key for healthy wildlife. We cannot do it with the designation of wilderness. We all have more work to do though.

I happen to dislike backpacking into wild lands and running into the piles of horse poop. I know some will howl at that but I didn't call anyone names. I'm only stating my opinion.

We want the same things, I'm sure. We just have a different route to get there.

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 03:59PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 03:57?PM (MST)

>Thanks topgun. It did kind of
>sound like that to me
>also.
>
>Here is the way I look
>at wilderness. I have had
>the best hunts and best
>memories from hunts that take
>place in a wilderness area.
>When I am 75 hopefully
>I will still be able
>to hike. If not, I
>would still rather have great
>memories from the hunts I
>do in a wilderness area,
>then the memories I have
>from the times I have
>hunted non wilderness areas.

DT,

I didn't mean to take the low road or call you a liar. I was trying to make a point about the need for roads.

Please accept my apology if I offended. I'm trying to police my own attitude first.

I've got to go back to work so talk quietly among yourselves until I return!

Zeke
 
Topgun, buzz and a few others. As I read over your posts one word keeps coming up I'n my mind. Me me me me me. How is that working out for you I'n life always being a taker!!!! I grew up being a me me me guy/taker and was served up a hard dish of humble pie 2 yrs ago and will never live that way again.


Justin Richins
R&K Hunting Company Inc.
www.thehuntingcompany.com
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 07:48PM (MST)[p]Justin---I take great exception to your "me, me, me" remark! You have no idea how I live my life by reading the few posts I make on this BB. For your information, I mentor kids in classes and on hunts every year here in Michigan as well as hosting disabled Vets at my cabin on whitetail hunts in northern Michigan and turkey hunts down here in southern Michigan where I live. I have also taken one fellow I met on another website out to Wyoming and he got a nice bull with his bow after getting enough PPs to draw his tag (see picture). All he had to do was pay for his gas to get out there and his license fees. He is buying PPs to do it again, as are two other guys that I have never met and I promised to do the same for them so they can experience their first elk hunt with the knowledge that it will be a good one without spending thousands of dollars! If you think that makes me a "me, me, me person", then you can kiss my azz and eat some more of your humble pie Sir!!!
Zeke---There are always roads to get to and from a wilderness area and, as Buzz stated, some end right at trailheads and/or wilderness boundaries, while the furtherest is 21 miles from a boundary! I hunted the Gila in NM last October and we were able to take a twotrack right to the Gila River that was the boundary of the wilderness area, but that twotrack was close to 20 miles long through the Gila Forest itself to get there. I think I understand your statements and pretty much agree with your postion and assessment that wilderness can stifle water and other needed projects in certain areas. Those are the kind of areas that I feel should probably have road closures, rather than be designated a wilderness area that would stifle those kind of worthwhile projects. Therefore, I think we are on the same page, other than possibly the amount of land that should be under one or the other designations.
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Justin,

That is a really good arguement for your position on wilderness.

Was your problem a couple of years ago that you were a judgemental, self-righteous azzhat? If it was then you haven't kicked it just yet. Keep trying.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 09:32PM (MST)[p]
Justin---I take great exception to your "me, me, me" remark! You have no idea how I live my life by reading the few posts I make on this BB. For your information, I mentor kids in classes and on hunts every year here in Michigan as well as hosting disabled Vets at my cabin on whitetail hunts in northern Michigan and turkey hunts down here in southern Michigan where I live. I have also taken one fellow I met on another website out to Wyoming and he got a nice bull with his bow after getting enough PPs to draw his tag (see picture)

Congrats on giving back!
Humble pie is something everyone should have a taste of. I sure don't agree with anyone from southern Michigan having a say with what goes on in Utah's wilderness.. I would never come to your state and push a personal view on the Michigan residents... Just as my post offend you many of your posts have felt offensive to me but I don't take it personal. That being said we all have a strong bond with this great country the Land of many uses and I wish you the best this season!!

Mulecreek

Was your problem a couple of years ago that you were a judgemental, self-righteous azzhat? If it was then you haven't kicked it just yet. Keep trying.

There is a very true and old saying.. You can only see in others what you see in yourself. Why? Because you can only recognize things that are familiar to you.
Best of luck to you to this season!


This MM site is so drama ridden I can hardly stand to visit it and I'm fault for buying into the drama.. I'm done with the drama I have created on MM and the drama I feed into here.


Justin Richins
 
I disagree with your view that nonresidents shouldn't have a say in the management of federally managed public lands. I have an attachment to all of our public land legacy and have spent time in lots of different regions of the national forests and BLM lands. Residents living in close proximity to these areas should and do have more weight put on their opinions, but don't forget that these places are owned by all Americans.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 10:11PM (MST)[p]Justin---I really don't know why you even wasted your time to come back and make what appears to me to be a lame post wishing us both the best this season after the other hogwash you wrote in both your posts, especially the last paragraph of your last one!!! FYI, Federal land is owned by every Federal taxpayer and, therefore, each taxpayer has as much right as the next one to offer their opinions as to how it should be handled! If you don't like that, it's too bad because our opinions should all be listened to when it comes to this particular Federal land discussion. The reason is simply because I have as much right to use it as you do, regardless of where we live!!! The one big difference is that each state controls the hunting on those lands and for the most part the residents of the state the land is located in generally have the advantage as far as license fees, more tags, etc. I am of the opinion that there is too much disparity in those fees, as well as access to those Federal lands where I am not a resident, but it's something that we all live with when we don't live in the state where we want to hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-11 AT 10:27PM (MST)[p]Justin,

When did the truth and facts become drama?

You're talking out of your a$$...somehow thinking that a guy living in Michigan, New York, or Florida shouldnt have a say on how federal lands are managed throughout the United States.

News flash...people living in Utah dont pay any more toward the management of Federal Lands than any other U.S. taxpayer. That fact is undisputable, and therefore we all have the same voice in how we want our federal lands managed.

I'd also caution you that letting "locals" have undue influence is many times counter-productive to whats best for federal lands and its management. Locals have been fooled, lied to, bribed, etc. by extractive users of public lands for a long, long, long time. Promises of making sure that mines are cleaned up, promises that over-grazing wont happen, promises that water tables wont be impacted by coal-bed methane development, promises that negative impacts to wildlife will be mitigated, etc. etc. etc.

Yet, these things are ignored and our Federal lands take it on the chin...over and over again.

I suggest you educate yourself...and let go of the humble pie.
 
Buzz ever since I first came on MM I thought you were the toughest baddest best huntinest a$$handingest SOB on here so I guess I had it right. Oh wait...... this is the internet and nothing is as it seems.

Look my point is not to say I think wilderness is bad or even limiting to me (except WY) I just know if it is difficult for me logistically to take my family into the wilderness to hunt then it is difficult to impossible for others who take it less seriously than me. Now honestly I don't really care about the adult who cannot or will not hunt the wilderness, my concern is for their kids.

I would venture a guess that 99% of us started hunting with our families out of a camp on public open land that was accessible and logistically simple for our family to take young kids and mentor us and light a fire that burns on today hotter in some than others. If we lose these places then we lose the future IMO because many will miss out on the experience cause dad will wait too long to take Jr. because he can't walk himself 10 miles in where the bucks are at until he's X years old and by then he has no interest or fire to hunt.

Honestly Buzz the reason I asked about kids of you is I already knew the answer. Your posts are always about YOU and the most selfish people I have ever met have been childless. I don't know whether they are childless because they are selfish or selfish because they are childless but either way I am glad you are not raising kids in your likeness.

Me Me Me ME I I I I Me Me Me I I I I..On and ON and ON

Just trying to keep up Buzz even though I know I will never be close.

So the fine people of WY (and Buzz) can say I must use a guide or have a Resi friend (will you be my friend Buzz oh nevermind) or move to WY (definite possibility it's on my list of places) but the people of UT cannot say no thanks. Seems you can add hypocrite to your list Buzz.

You presume many things Buzz. I purchased my first ATV two years ago (a used Honda that was such a good deal I couldn't let it go) and have not hunted on it or even taken it with me hunting. I am not fat and lazy and have done quite well for many years hunting inside and outside of wilderness areas for mulies and blacktails but I don't need your approval so I will spare pics in this thread. I care just as much about the wild places of this country and possibly more than you and most because I have a vested interest in my kids' future and their ability to hunt these places. I want more wilderness but also want road restricted areas and open areas. I know there is no risk of losing it all to a wilderness land grab at this time and probably never. I have no problem with the loss of development on wilderness but do if it is development that helps wildlife(guzzlers etc.).

I have to laugh at the fact that if someone doesn't think that all federal land should be locked up they are a fat lazy ATV riding road hunting slob and if you like wilderness you are a big tough bada$$ monster killing DIY stud. I suppose the people that think that way could just walk in two 5 mile circles around a critter if they happen to spot it from too close to the road LOL.

Buzz sorry to be the guy to inform you but YOU are NOT all that and I do not care one iota about what a$$ you THINK your handing anyone. You're a small selfish feeble minded little Plick that probably had too many wedgies as a kid.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-20-11 AT 09:26AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-20-11 AT 09:23?AM (MST)

Huntindad,

Wow, thats a nice rant you put together...and funny.

I just know if it is difficult for me logistically to take my family into the wilderness to hunt then it is difficult to impossible for others who take it less seriously than me. Now honestly I don't really care about the adult who cannot or will not hunt the wilderness, my concern is for their kids.

So, the reason you dont want more wilderness is because the logistics are tough for you? Thats not a selfish attitude? Sounds like a personal problem...use those advanced problem solving skills and figure it out.

Laffin'...

If we lose these places then we lose the future IMO because many will miss out on the experience cause dad will wait too long to take Jr. because he can't walk himself 10 miles in where the bucks are at until he's X years old and by then he has no interest or fire to hunt.

Again, because YOU choose to "wait too long" you blame it on Wilderness? Sounds like a personal problem and a selfish attitude again. We should open things up and keep them open so its convienent for you, when and if you decided not to wait too long?

Laffin even more....

You really have no clue, and thats more than apparent.

Answer these questions:

How is less than 4% of the total BLM land in the lower 48 locking you out?

How does wilderness designation lock you out?

You must mean, "I cant drive my atv there, so I'm locked out" Yes?

Like I already stated, If it was really all about me, I sure as hell wouldnt be advocating for more wildlerness areas. If I was only concerned with my future I'd want a road on every ridge. I realize that I wont be getting into my favorite places forever. I'm not so self centered though to think I should be able to and that I deserve special privileges.

Also, if it was all about me...why would I bother to be a life-member or member of the Boone and Crockett club, Pope and Young Club, Montana Wildlife Federation, Ravalli County F&WA, Hellgate Hunters and Anglers, WWF, BCHA, and DU?

Why would I spend my money on groups that promote the future of hunting if I was such a selfish bastard as you claim? I'd be better off spending those thousands of dollars on hunts for myself.

I'd also be better off not donating my time as a volunteer for the Laramie Chapter of DU. I also wouldnt have blown 2 years worth of time serving (again voluntary) on the Wetlands Protection Advisory Council in Montana to enhance, protect, and find funding for wetland habitat.

I'd of been better off spending that time scouting, hunting, fishing, or trapping for myself rather than worry about the future of others.

Of course, taking time out to attend, and comment on, game and fish meetings, scoping meetings for public land issues, updating travel plans, etc. etc. etc. is also all for selfish reasons. I also spend countless hours writing and calling elected officials throughout the West on wildlife and land related issues. I cant tell you how many phone calls and letters I wrote just this spring alone to representatives in Montana with their BS round of attacks on public wildlife there. How many letters and calls did you make to MT this spring?

I also contribute thousands of dollars in application fees, hunting license fees, fishing license fees, etc. in states I dont even hunt...and unless I'm extremely lucky, probably never will. Hows that for selfish! Paying the freight for others when I'll likely never even get a chance!

What I should do is spend my time and money on myself and my hunting/fishing habit, and let you and your kids pay my freight for me.

I should also just sit back and let you and your kids complacency in these issues decide the fate of public lands. I mean, according to you, I'm a selfish plick, so why should I give a $hit about public lands or wildlife once I'm done and gone? I should take with both hands and give nothing back.

Yet, I made a decision long ago to worry and care about more than myself. I committed to a life-time of caring for the land/wildlife and the future of same. I knew the day I started college my career choice would never make me wealthy monetarily and catching hell from every angle would be, and is, the norm.

If I was a selfish ba$tard, as you claim, I would have pursued a career that prioritized money over something so trivial as public lands management and wildlife management.

I think you need to look in the mirror and ask yourself who really is the "selfish plick"...
 
Justin...with "Over 1,000,000 acres of spectacular private-land hunting," I wouldn't be too concerned with the preservation of any public land either.
 
I'm not trying to start another war here since you guys are doing just fine without me.

How many of you guys have been to the area(s) that we are talking about here?

How many of you have hunted deer, doves, rabbits, pronghorn etc and really seen how this arid land relys on water and habitat developement?

Just curious.

Without intimate knowledge of THIS area the only thing we're talking about is a concept rather than substance.

Zeke
 
I've worked there a bunch...but that sure doesnt make my opinion more important than anyone elses.

Its PUBLIC land, and we all have a civic duty to let our elected officials know how we want OUR public lands managed.

Where you live or even if you've never been there is irrelevant.
 
Irrelevant? Oh Buzz, you kill me!

What work have you done there? Guzzlers, reseeding, PJ control?

I still love your passion. I think we want the same thing, betterment of the land and land use. We just diverge in the approach to get there.

Love, Zeke

Ok, I'm done here. No way will we totally agree but that's ok too, it's the USA way!
 
Zeke,

I haven't been to this area since I was a teenager.

Like Buzz said that doesn't make my opinion any less valid or important when it comes to public land. You are 100% correct, I am talking about a concept. And when I hear bad arguements like I am losing my rights, or I am being locked out, or where will the children hunt or what about those in wheelchairs, or they are going to take my hunting rights and my guns when the concept of wilderness protection is brought up then I feel like making a counterpoint.

Your point about habitat management has some validity. Personnally, I think the BLM, Feds and Utah needs to start protecting more productive land. It seems the best that can be done is to protect large blocks of desert. I grew up in Utah, moved away to go to school and then to Wyoming for work. I have recently moved back to Utah for a few months. The change is staggering. The drive from Colville to SLC is a damn shame. Protection from development is the only thing that will stop this and leave something for all of us and future generations to enjoy. Note I said soemthing, not everything.

I find it interesting that some have made the determination that those who favor wilderness protection are takers and selfish. This sounds about as rediculous as the assumption that those opposed are fat, lazy, atv riders.
 
The problem I have with the whole thing is that Congress alone has been given the authority to designate "wilderness". What is happening now is the BLM is now defining "wild lands". What is the genesis for this new action? I remain concerned that once we start singling out some uses of our public lands as unacceptable that we run the risk that some of the uses we want to maintain may become prohibited or so restrictive that for all practical purposes that use no longer exists.

It has already been pointed out that some restrictions are in place for designated wilderness. It remains to be seen what restrictions will be implemented when the BLM designates "wild lands" areas.

I think we all agree that we need places to "get lost' or seek our own adventures. Everything probably should not be wilderness nor should it all be paved or criss-crossed with two tracks roads. The trick is to find that balance.
 
Mulecreek,
I agree with you, mulecreek, and even Buzzh on a number of fronts. I didn't talk access, I spoke to our ability to improve the land and water resources.

I think it matters NOT where you call home. We all have a responsibility to be BETTER stewards of all the land. We all agree that there have been misuses.

The reason I asked if folks had been to the area is to understand if folks realize what we're talking about. NOT to see who is qualified to weigh-in on the discussion. Again, it's our right and responsibility to get involved! That's why I love Buzz's passion. He has a ton to offer my way of good info and his insight. It is only OUR opinions when we are right. Others disagree and they are RIGHT too.

I hope I can respectfully disagree and remember that YOUR opnion is just as valid as mine.

Great discussion guys. It's always informative for me to hear other opinions.

Zeke

Ps; sorry, I just couldn't stay away!
 
The One thing I think we can all agree on is that most of the members on this site are more than a cut above the average in our zeal for the outdoors and making it a better place for all the critters and our future generations!!!
 

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