Shooting young rams?

[ridgetops]

Going off the other thread, some of you guys feel very strongly about not shooting young rams on any unit. If any of you read my story in the HAC, you will know I got little to no help at all from the Biologist. All he would tell me was there's (1) nine and (2) eight year old rams on the unit. Since all the older rams have either a collar w/ ear tags or just ear tags. I asked the biologist what color of ear tags the three oldest rams have, so I would know which are the oldest. He would not tell me, he said it would be against fair chase rules, if I had that info.. "REALLY" What do you guys think? Should I complain to the DWR or just let it go? I think the DWR should do everything they can to help the hunter take the oldest rams on the unit but if a guy can't find them and the DWR is holding back on the info., then I think they're in the wrong. I just about had myself convinced on shooting the first good looking 6 year old ram I saw after scouting all summer, until I finally saw my ram the week before the hunt started. Then I had a new standard. After the kill, the DWR aged my ram at 6 years old, then 7, then finally settled on eight after I complained about the way they were counting rings. The other tag holders ram was aged at 9 years but I know of three rams that looked older than both of ours. So I think the age guessing game is really a guess and nothing more.

 

[littlebighorn]

Koby,
While I am no "expert" it was clear to me that your ram was at least 8. He was definitely the dominant ram on that mountain...at least from the ones I saw. Unfortunately, I think some DWR workers have less knowledge about sheep age than many sheep hunting fanatics or guides. That may have been the first sheep that DWR worker had actually checked, especially up in your neck of the woods.
Keep in mind how rare it is to be able to actually look at growth rings close up. And almost every time I have looked at a ram with a group of guys around, there seems to be a disagreement of whether or not something is a growth ring or not. So IMHO, aging sheep is for sure not an exact science. On the other hand, I believe you can usually tell within a year, or so.
That being said, I think it would be in the best interest of the herd to help hunters find old rams. I don't know what kind of policy the division has with their biologists about information, but I know sometimes policy takes precedence over common sense!
I would at least try to have a visit with a regional manager about your concerns. Otherwise nothing will change. For sure you can be proud of how hard you tried to find the oldest ram! Especially DIY.

 

[D13er]

post a good side view of your ram and I'll tell you how old it is.....


JB

 

[ridgetops]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-11 AT 01:21PM (MST)[p]

 

[D13er]

lol....I knew that is what it was gonna look like. Some are very easy to age, some are very difficult. This one is very difficult. Let me study it a little while and I'll give you my best bet.

Regardless, that is an awesome ram, only passed by a fool in lots of hunt zones.

Theoretically killing only 8 year old rams is prolly best for the herd....but in reality they issue so few tags it really makes no difference. It is your tag after drawn and you should be able to shoot any legal ram you want without criticism from bystanders.


JB

 

[B_BOP_A_LU_LU]

7+!

God is Great!
Life is Good!
And People are Crazy!

I love not acting my age,
Damn I love my NASCAR race,
And Hell yes I love my Truck!
And a good BBQ!
I am Medicine And I am Poison!
What Voltage of Cordless Sawzall are you running & what's your quickest Drive-By at hackin the Horns off of RoadKills?

This Favorite Shhit is getting old already!

 

[mevertsen]

That is a very nice ram, regardless of how old it is or what it scores!!

I do have an opinion on the biologist telling you that saying which rams are what is against fair chase.

I agree with him, in that it would take away from the hunt. If you know that you are looking for a certain ear tag, or collar, then where is the real challenge in hunting that animal? There is no judging, there is no guesswork, nothing. Find the one with the pink ear tag and shoot, because he's the oldest. Doesn't sound to fair to me, IMO. I think it would be just as easy to buy a hunt on a high fenced ranch in Texas for whatever species you want and being told that you need to take the (insert animal here) with a certain ear tag or other mark because it's the oldest. Seems the same to me.

I also agree that so few ram tags are given anywhere that it really doesn't matter if only rams of a certain age are taken.

As far as how old that ram is, very tough. I can get to 3 years, and it goes out the window from there, lol.

I have a rocky ram that is 5.5 years old. Very easy to tell that. (ram that I found dead during the disease outbreak last winter). I have no clue on this ram.

 

[Zeke]

I think (IMHO) 6.5 maybe 7.5 probably but I don't have it in my hands. Bring it over! LOL. Great looking ram.

My thoughts on the subject of FAIR CHASE would dictate that YOU get to (or have to) make a choice. It looks like you did just fine without the information. What would be the point of a complaint? Would you have shot a different ram? I know you almost did but..... so what? It was YOUR hunt.

Whether policy or not, the F&G shouldn't "point out" your ram for you by giving you the tag info. This would detract from the hunt for me. Whenever I hunt a new sheep area I do rely on some F&G info but I don't want a babysitter.

We've just had a very thorough discussion about the killing of certain age class rams. I don't have the energy or desire to jump into the fray.

You shot a top tier ram for the unit and you shot the one I thought you should have(if you could find it again).

Congratulations again on a sweet hunt.

Zeke

 

[ridgetops]

I think you guys are missing my point. All I was asking is very basic information. Like if the top 3 rams have red, white and blue tags. Then if I saw a really good looking shooter ram that had green tags. I would know there are other older rams than that one. I took pictures of a great ram with brown tags three years ago. I asked the guy if it was one of the three oldest. He would not tell me. I asked him if he could tell me if it was still alive because a few have been taken be lions. He again, would not answer. To me, that's just being a jerk. It seems like most of the hunters I've talked to, don't like the guy either. You're right, I did get the ram I wanted to get and am thrilled with him but I just wonder about how the future hunters will be treated.
Also, I guess if the one who draws the tag next year comes to me for advice. I will have to turn them away because I don't want to take away from their hunt and risk any fair chase rules.

 

[TOPGUN]

ridgetops---I'm with you 100% on your posts. That biologist is a Class A jerk in my book too! There is no reason I can see that giving you what you asked for would have made the slightest difference in it being a fair chase hunt and IMO it sure wouldn't have been anything similar to a fenced hunt! I would pursue it with "higher ups" to see what they say, especially if the guy has also treated others badly. He is being paid by tax dollars and it's part of his job to have good "customer" relations with the people who are paying his salary IMHO!!! He is not raising pets so they can die of old age for God's sake!!!

 

[Tagalong173]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-11 AT 02:28PM (MST)[p]I got him right at 7.5

And I think your right, the biologist should have given you that information. I can't see any reason why not. IMO

 

[2_Point]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-11 AT 06:47PM (MST)[p]Gotta agree with D13 on this one.

I also will add that your obvious frustration with the biologist appears to have taken away from your incredible hunt. Biologists have enough to worry about without having to deal with an upset hunter who wants to know the color coordination on ram ear tags to more easily decide which one to shoot.

You killed a great ram. Enjoy it and let the rest go.

 

[ridgetops]

>LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-11
>AT 06:47?PM (MST)
>
>Gotta agree with D13 on this
>one.
>
>I also will add that your
>obvious frustration with the biologist
>appears to have taken away
>from your incredible hunt.
>Biologists have enough to worry
>about without having to deal
>with an upset hunter who
>wants to know the color
>coordination on ram ear tags
>to more easily decide which
>one to shoot.
>
>You killed a great ram.
>Enjoy it and let the
>rest go.


It hasn't taken away from my hunt at all. Yes, it made me work even harder for it, something many others would not have done. Living only 10 miles from these sheep, gave me an advantage over many others and I did make a lot of local friend during this past year because of my hunt. I think a lot of people around the country rely on a biologist help. Well, that's what many of the hunting books say to do. Maybe that could be part of the problem.

 

[greatwestern]

Ram was in his 8th year when ya killed him...bio seems to have his head up his arse, if the behavior you describe is accurate
...utah seems to be suffering some serious sheep mismanagement issues in general

anyway, Nice Darkhorns!

 

[littlebighorn]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-11 AT 08:08AM (MST)[p]
So, in case you didn't catch the action, check out this footage of this ram being taken. It has been on another post that probably some of you missed. I think it is worth a peek on a cold Monday morning!

 

[ttj]

Aging sheep can by annuli can actually be pretty darn accurate. The key, like judging sheep, is to look at a lot of sheep, or in this case, horns. It also really helps to look at rams with someone that is VERY knowledgeable and that can walk you through false annuli, etc. In my experience the most common error is not giving credit to the lamb tip! Next time you are looking at a bunch of sheep, pay close attention to the lambs of the year. Their horns are only 1-2" long in the fall. That annuli is almost always missed. My experience with DWR Biologists in respect to being helpful with information runs both sides of the spectrum, from very helpful to pretty much a waste of time. Which is kind of sad when you take into consideration the fact that their paychecks are coming from us hunters and we are supposed to be a management tool for them to implement proper wildlife mgmt. I'd call your ram definitely 7.5 and possibly 8.5, but without having the horns in hand..........Regardless, congrats on a great hunt and a great ram. Thanks for sharing the experience as well! TJ

 

[Daxter]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-11 AT 01:27PM (MST)[p]I absolutely do not think that the biologist was in the wrong for not giving you all the ear tag information you asked for. I am actually quite surprised that you asked for it and feel entitled to get it.

Biologists are not hunting guides. Their job is to try to manage populations and habitats so they can hopefully provide sustainable harvest opportunities to hunters, not to guarantee hunters harvest the largest trophy. Obviously on a limited entry or once in a lifetime hunt they want hunters to harvest mature animals, but holding the hand of hunters isn't the best method to accomplish that.

I don't think a biologist owes it to any hunter to tell them where they saw the biggest buck, bull, or ram. What color ear tag the oldest animals are wearing, or even "where they would hunt if they had the tag". The argument that biologists salaries are paid by hunters so they should give hunters that info is absurd. Being a guide or outfitter is not part of the biologists job description. Most biologists will try to steer hunters in the right direction, but they aren't going to do all your homework and scouting for you. I think it is crazy that guys that draw tags feel entitled to that. It is your hunt, own it, and make the most of it.

Whether you personally like the biologist or not, you can't argue that he didn't at least do something right after looking at your ram. I would argue that he is doing his job of managing the sheep population in a way that gave you the opportunity to hunt. What a beautiful animal. I would say 8.5 yrs, but it is hard to tell with just a small picture.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.

 

[bighornbob]

Counting annuli is a pretty good way of telling a rams age. And as with anything the more you do it the better you get. Here is BC we have sheep seasons that are based on age. For example a stone sheep has to have one horn tip over the bridge of the nose or 8 years old to be legal. Basically it lets you shoots broomed rams as long as they are 8. Like I said it takes many years of knowing what to look for etc.

That being said it also helps to know something about the herd too. As one poster said a lamb tip is 1-2 inches. This is true for stone sheep but not so much for the bighorns of the south. I have personally held californai lambs in february (during sheep transplants) that have had 5 inch lamb tips. A lot of the herds in south central BC that have mild winters, this is the norm. I would assume this might also be the case for you guys in the south. This may be even more relavent if the sheep herd is decendant from transplants that came from BC sheep. Might want to ask the bios where the sheep came from and what they expect to see for a lamb tip.

On the age of the ram shown, I can easily see 4 years (from the base to past the midway point of the horn). Then it gets a little tough with the pics shown as to what is actually a lamb tip and where his 2 year ring wopuld be. But based on what I can see at the last 14 inches or so to the base (spaces between the annuli) the ram only appears to be 6 years of age.

BHB

 

[greatwestern]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-11 AT 07:04PM (MST)[p]looking at my post, i should clarify my terse words about the bio

it should be his primary interest as a sheep biologist to IDENTIFY (NOT provide any location data within the unit, if he even knows) the oldest age class rams he aware of to ALL inquiring current year hunters...it has less to do with any hunter's particular 'ideals' in this context, and more to do with getting the right rams killed...ear tags, radio collars, horn characteristics, any identifying criteria should be related...the hunter still has to find and hunt the rams!

example: there was a large class IV ram that ran around a particular unit a few years back...when he was big enough to hit the radar of the sheep people in the area, word about him spread like wildfire...photos were circulated, tall tales were told, big plans made for that dude

it took 3 years to get that ram killed with several hunters in the unit per year, over half of whom were guided...poor old dude was in a pretty bad way when they finally got on him, probably wouldn't have lived much past the new year and his all-time head would likely have been lost to the elements

it was an ideal harvest...big gramps had lived his life the way a ram should, and met a dignified and humane end. He will be marveled at and enjoyed indefinitely by many, and may just inspire a few more people to get involved with wild sheep

there is ALWAYS the argument that ANY wild sheep is trophy, and that is true in and of itself...but we are in a time when we must take more responsibility than that, and see that we collectively do our very best to see that our wild sheep thrive and prosper for generations to come

anyway, please excuse me for the ramble...

 

[NVBighorn]

That is a beautiful ram. I enjoyed your Hunt Adventure story (the only one I actually read all of). I am green with envy over the type of experience you had. Lots of time afield. A great trophy. Good people. Its the ideal hunt.

Now, whether the bio should tell you that stuff? If he tells you he should tell all the tagholders. Probably not a problem for you. I think he should be just vague enough to keep it honest and interesting but open enough to make it fun and allow the oldest age rams to be taken.

Do you happen to have any pics of the horns from behind. Sometimes that is the best place to age from. Obviously not in the field but in your hand it helps you sort out the false rings.

 

[ridgetops]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-11 AT 08:25PM (MST)[p]No good pictures from behind. I can try to get one. Here's another view of his right side. Also, this rams bloodline is from British Colubia. If this ram is 6 years old, he sure has some world class genetics.

 

[greatwestern]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-11 AT 08:43PM (MST)[p]yep NV, great point...a view from behind is valuable ANYtime when counting rings, but the field in particular...the more views one can get, the better!

especially in a case like this when you have a very dark horned ram with many false annuli

the inside of a horn when the ram is quartered obliquely away is also another helpful view...a true annulus will always continue the entire circumference of the horn

**edit---shoot Ridgetops, just seen your new picture and i still think your ram was in his 8th year...over seven, not quite eight

and he's a real Beaut!

 

[D13er]

this is what I see.....obviously hands on is always better....

..so...I'm saying he is 8...at the oldest

JB

 

[bighornbob]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-11 AT 09:00PM (MST)[p]That photo makes it a lot easier to count the rings and I stand corrected. I am pretty confident that he is an eight year old ram. In the picture below I am assuming where rings 1 and 2 should be but they are usually in the places where I have indicated (well they are on the rams on my wall that have similar brooming). I am also assuming thats where the lamb tip would be, hard to see that one without holding the horns, but I think you can see it on the far horn. If its not right there it would be right where the brooming is, so he has broomed off about 3-4 inches.

BHB

 

[greatwestern]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-11 AT 09:57PM (MST)[p]good illustration BHB...

i don't think that eighth is quite there yet...note that the 7th year hasn't quite 'dried' yet and the lower part is still pretty dark

but whatever...NOT trying to start any arguments

 

[Zeke]

That's what I thought too.

The first few rings are hard to see in the photo, shoot, they might be hard to see if I had it in my hands.

I started my annuli count at 3 1/2 (a clustered series of growth rings)since this is very visible in the ram. The first deep defined ring is usually at the age of 4 1/2.

Counting from there we reach the age of 7 1/2 when killed. (yes, in the 8th year but not quite 8 yet)

Again, exellent ram and a great hunt!

Zeke

 

[ttj]

Bighornbob's post that outlines the growth rings in red is spot on! That ram is 8 years old, or 8 1/2 if you want to get picky. The only tricky aspect of aging that ram is that he has a false annuli between his 5th and 6th year. TJ

 

[Zeke]

TJ
I really like his illustrations on the annuli. It makes it almost as easy to read as if we had it in our hands.

Damn, some guys are good with the ole computer!

Zeke