Shooting Beyond Belief

slamdunk

slamdunk

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I just got done watching "The Best Of The West" this morning on the MOR channel, has anyone seen this program?

It's about shooting and killing at extreme long ranges and there are some amazing shots being executed.

These guys know what they are doing and aren't afraid to pass on shot opportunities that they aren't comfortable with, which i totally respect.

I watched in total amazement as a hunter took out a nice bull elk at 806 yards cleanly with one shot, and i have seen another program where they smoked a coyote at over 1000 yards.
(I smoked a bird on the ground with my .204 yesterday out at 268 yds and thought THAT was impressive!) :eek:

My question here is NOT going to be about ethics, that has been hammered over and over many times on here and i don't even want this to go there.

My question is- Has anyone used these guys products or bought the training video "Shooting Beyond Belief" and tried it?

These guys are using tricked out rifles and Berger Bullets i know, but i am very interested in anyone's own personal experiences with this type of shooting, or the products these guys are teaching and marketing.

Heck, if a person can learn to shoot at extreme ranges and have that confidence, imagine the kind of confidence you'd have at normal shooting distances, it would make them seem easy :)








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I have been interested in their show for a couple years now. What they do is impressive and the kills that they show, even more so.
The tech is out there. Practice, practice, practice! With my equipment, a 500yd shot at a standing Mulie buck is now very doable when once it was only a hope and a prayer.

Good hunting!
Joey
 
I have a friend and his brother bought all this stuff from these guys for shooting long range. He went to Afghanistan for practice shooting stuff/people at long range. On the night before his first spike elk hunt after all this practice. He told me his gun which was a Lepua or something 338 win mag with a 250 grain bullet only had 30" of drop at 900 yards. He went out the next day which was opening morning and shot 3 spike elk between 700 and 900 yards. Didn?t find one damn elk went out the next day and shot and filled his tag. I called the fish and game and they said that's hunting sometimes you wound and can't find your animal.


Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
my buddy got the dvd's 2 years ago. he went the whole nine yards custom rifle ect, and he drilled a colorado elk 591 yards .lots of practice lot's of studying the dvd's and to much math for me .i would prefer to sneak a little closer but there is not a single guy out there that has not had a scenerio where he wishes he had the equipment ,practice and know how to shoot that beyond belief shot.
 
The science and technology and art of shooting those distances is amazing!

If you're in Afganistan shooting at a terrorist and you miss slightly and blow the guys arm off......oh well. Try again later!

Eel
 
I use there reloading tech...weigh each bullet & Case, digital scale powder measurement, bench-rest primers, ect..
I use a Rem Sendero that I had the action tuned and polished and crown treated and then finally cryo finished, it is far more accurate than I am.
I can take metal silhouettes past 1000 meters but from field conditions I am only good to about 450-500. Those dang metal ram's are hard to hit...LOL
Reading the wind at those long ranges is very difficult and finding a place to practise is also hard. Rural Bow Elder county has a few places to get a shot that far and is the closest place I know that you can shoot...I need more practice that's for sure.

The rifles I have dont have the energy at those long ranges that I want to ensure a clean kill, I want 1500lbs at least on impact so I keep all shots under 400 yards.
 
In Afganistan they use the 50bmg...so if you are alittle off you WILL take the guys arm off...and if a little low will cut them in half.
 
>In Afganistan they use the 50bmg...so
>if you are alittle off
>you WILL take the guys
>arm off...and if a little
>low will cut them in
>half.

Now that's funny!

On a more serious note, we should be careful about thinking that a video or DVD production is a good perspective of what happens in the field. It is not.

I edit a lot of video. What you see in the end product is not the ugly stuff that may happen in obtaining the final shown footage.

What you don't see are bad shots that are a complete miss, or worse yet, possibly a wounded animal. Or, possibly a poor shot that results in a recovered animal that could have been taken with less struggle at a closer distance.

I watch the show, and worry that they are portraying something unrealistic for the average weekend warrior. No doubt, they have the long range shooting deal figured out under ideal conditions. Or at least on the footage that makes it to the show.

But, is the average audience going to practice as much as they do, be selective and turn down shots when necessary, and understand the other aspects that are required to do this consistently, without wounding loss?

I have no idea whether or not they have to edit out some bad shots. Filming and helping with a lot of hunting under difficult conditions of weather, wind, excitement, and such, I see bad shots happening. Everyone feels bad when it happens. It doesn't make it to the DVD or TV show. Quite often, video productions are not a truthful portayal of what happens in the "REAL" field.

I hope people who see this show understand that it is not easy, and no matter what anyone says, longer distances increase the likelihood of miscalculations. Unfortunately, these are animals, not terrorists, so non-lethal hits or injuries are something we should be concerned about.

Now if the targets were terrorists, who would care?

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
BigFin put into words exactly what I was thinking......it is a recipe for disaster.

JB
 
I didn't buy their technology, but use similar and have watched/listened to their advice. I have a .300 Weatherby. I reload 180 grn. Accubonds. I take great pains with each and every bullet. Even though I've been reloading for 40+ years, I have the latest digital scales and take great pains with each bullet.

I use a laser range finder and have bullet-drop compensating turret on my Leupold scope. I practice regularly. I have had a couple of days (no wind) in which I shot a bunch of rock chucks at 700 yards.

My two longest shots at game animals are: 557 on a coyote and 552 on a deer. Both were dead on.

I think the technology works. I think we can all do similar things, with the "secret" being that we must set things up right (I've bedded, trigger adjusted and have put barrel deresonators on my gun.), reload VERY carefully and practice.
 
Bows are now accurate and deadly at 80-100 yards, muzzleloaders 150-250 yards... why not rifles out to 1000 yards. /shrug technology benefits all weapon types.


-DallanC
 
Where I live,we have two syrveyed shooting ranges that can hang a target at 1500 yds. We also have about 300,000sq miles of public land, that you can shoot at whatever distance you could see.

In the areas where we hunt coyotes, we have survey stakes all around with tape on them so you can read wind effect and true distance with no problem.

I have several varmint rifles, but lately have stalled on my .243. I no longer reload because I find that Hornady factory stuff is WAY excellent, and I simply don't have time anymore.

We can consistantly toast 'yotes to 600, standing still and have hit several at 800+, on a 4th or 5th shot.....knowing full well, that there is some luck involved at that range.

If I get an opportunity, where all the conditions are in my favor and I know I can't lose a wounded animal, I will take an 800 yard shot on a standing deer. I haven't had that scenario in 40 years, but if it comes up...............
 
LAST EDITED ON May-25-08 AT 12:20PM (MST)[p]>Bows are now accurate and deadly
>at 80-100 yards, muzzleloaders 150-250
>yards... why not rifles out
>to 1000 yards. /shrug technology
>benefits all weapon types.
>
>
>-DallanC

Don't forget there are two components in the equation.
 
Excellent replies, this is exactly what i was looking for.

Bigfin-
I totally agree with what you say too, but i don't think the "average weekend hunter" is who they are wanting to sell their system to, they already know it's a recepie for disaster in the wrong hands.
They even mention this is not for everyone, but if you are willing to take the time to learn how to shoot.......
It takes you OUT of the "average weekend hunter" catagory.

My main hunting big game hunting rifle is a Mark V .300wby.
It already does things beyond what I can do with it, i'd just like to try and catch up to what IT'S capable of doing.










48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
I havn't used their tech but have been shooting long range for a long time. The key is knowing your gear and knowing yourself and lots of practice. I have taken a coues at 780 and a muley at 768. And I have never not recovered an animal that I shot at with my rifle. I only have one miss at over 500 yards and he gave me a second chance and I dropped him. Iv'e only taken 4 animals over 500 yards, and that is because in most conditions I was able to get to at least 300. But if the odds are not in my favor at closing the distance and I am comfident at 700 yards I will take the shot.
 
Slam and BigFin - you are both right. I have this same video and have watched it numerous times. They are very clear in that they have practiced much and often and are only attempting these shots because they are extremely confident at these distances and have the right equipment to do so. These are definitely not your average hunters and becuase of their skills and equipment, they are completely ethical.

Long-range shooting can certainly be a can of worms and there are many gray lines between luck and skill. The bottom line however is this - you should never out shoot your ability. If you practice at ranges up to 400 yards and during practice you make 85-100% of your shots then you are good up to that distance. But if you have never taken a shot past 400 yards, it starts to gets iffy and maybe less than ethical.

The truth is most people can't properly judge distances and think 100 yards is 400 yards and distances get much much longer after the fact. An easy 75 yard shot becomes 570 yards after a beer or two!

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
I ##### YOU NOT!!!

I ONCE SHOT IN TO NEXT WEEK!!!

I PULLED DOWN ON A TWEETY BIRD JUST AS SlamPunk DID!!!

I SQUOZE OFF AND THE BIRD NEVER FLINCHED!!!

ABOUT 9 HOURS LATER I HEARD THE SLUG COME WHIZZING BY MY EAR & I KILLED THAT TWEETY BIRD!!!

4,000 FPS & ONE REVOLUTION OF THE EARTH THAT TWEETY WAS MINE!!!

YOU BOYS EVER PULL ANYTHING THAT LONG RANGE OFF BEFORE???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
I have the 10 hr dvd set "How to Shoot Beyond Belief" It will show you how to get the most out of your factory rifle. A lot of it is pretty basic stuff but a lot of it is very interesting and helpful.
My personal limit is 500yds but it is amazing what those guys can do waaaay past that.
 
I have done the same type of rig on my 30-378 wthby it set up for one weight bullet(165) and at one speed(3600) with the BDC built into a leupold 4.5x14x50 sidefocus scope it can be dialed up to and beyond the yards you are talking. My bull last year was 504 yds only one shot and it was done. I buy my shells for this rig from Conley precision cartridge. I have 2 30-378 1 Wthby and 1 Sako and they both do well with this bullet, I have only one set up this way as soon as I can get the other one set up I will set it up for a 180 class bullet.

I also have a 338-378 WTHBY that beats both of these rigs hands done on putting the holes all in one spot.
 
Here's where I have a problem with Best in the West. When they first started they said they all practiced the shots and had taken many of them and in that scenario I don't have an issue with it to each their own. Lately on their shows they are now handing a gun to somebody that has never shot it ( admittedly) and are walking them through the process all to sell a product.

Now they are contradicting their own philosophy on the fact that you need to practice the shots BEFORE you take them in order to shoot within your own capability and be ethical! I know they're going to say they saw the hunter shoot and knew they could handle it, watching a guy shoot at 100 yards with his own gun and them handing him one he's never shot before are two different things entirely especially on a live animal. Many on here will disagree but in many instances now they could have closed the distance but choose not to, to sell their product and demonstrate it's long range capabilty. At that point you're done hunting and basically condoning shooting and what about all those hours of practice they take to make sure they know they can make the shot........Hypocracy at it's finest in the quest for the almighty dollar.
 
UH, yep seen it on tv... i wonder how many elk and deer they've wounded and were left to die while they were trying to figure out how to shoot that far.. You'd never get a follow up shot at those distances. I also watched a dvd called shooting beyond belief, and they used the same rifle for every hunt and every person shot the same rifle. Anyone else seen this dvd? If they were that good at shooting, why didn't they all use there own rifle? HUH, dont know... And please.. enough with the sarcasim, lets all be adults here uh..
 
slam,

Long range shooting is nothing new. There have been long range competitions 800+ yds. for decades. I new a man that was in the Mexican Navy and said they practiced 1000 meter shots.

Just go and try it, if your confidence grows from practice that's great. Most likely you will quickly learn how touchy long range shooting is. Any movement, wind, even a heavy heart beat will noticebly move your sights. I was at a 300 yd range one day and my crosshairs would jump about 6" everytime the guy next to me would shoot. Can't imagine 800 yds. If you go this route you better love shooting.
 
I lost my MOR. I used to watch that show all the time. I thought MOR went bankrupt. Who carries them and what channel? I have Dish Network.








BigFly
4836e9156b4e92a1.jpg
 
My set up is alot like Gator's same gun same scope, but i push a 180, it is a lot of fun to shoot steel at long range. with this set up,the one thing that will make or break you is the wind. that said i consider myself ethical on a 800 yard shot, when i have the wind figured out.
 
I think we should leave the long range
shooting at wildlife to the pros,
the videos are just like the rest, they
don't show you the wounded or missed shots.

Also I think you take alot of the challenge
out of shooting over 500 yards.

To all of you that take those long distant
shots, how would you like to be the guy
putting on a 3hour stalk to get within
ethical range and have some pro drop the
animal from 800 yards, I feel it is a little
on the lazy side.

Just my 2 cents
 
Now now now HNTBIGBULLS, easy on the word "ethical".

Given what this post is about and the systems these guys are learning too shoot from, "ethical" to one shooter is a lot differen't to another.

If one guy says he's comfortable to shoot at 800yds, he's being "ethical" to his skills and better judgement.
If another says nuttin over 300, well that's fine too, he's made that better judgement based on HIS "ethics".

"Ethical" to me right now is about 400 yds, but i'd like to take it further and make clean kills at 5 or 600, if thats what the job calls for.
I will never take a "guess shot, or a hell marry".
When my target is at 635......i'm going to know i can hit it and dispatch it cleanly.

Some guys limits may be over 800, some guys might be 200.

I have been guiding hunters for 17 years now and seen have seen it all.
And given the weapons of today and the knowledge to use them at extreme ranges is no differen't than any sport.
Everyone's hittin harder & throwing further and faster than ever before.








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
I agree with you slam on some of your
points, but shotting at a range and
shooting in the wild to me are two
differnt situations, I play alot of
golf, I can hit the ball pretty consistent
on the range but get me on the course and
there are to many variables.

Up here in nothern UT some guys built a
shooting golf course where you shoot all
different yardeges and situations, I have
never tried it but I don't have the rifle
or time to practice long range shooting.

I just have a hard time with some people
bragging they killed a animal at 700 yards.
When in all reallity they probably could
have tried to get closer.

As far as the guns go, To have a rifle that
can shoot consistently at long ranges have
got to be pretty heavy, If you notice in the
videos they use horses alot.

To each there own, I just believe long range
shooting is not about hunting, I believe it
is about killing.
 
Very true HBB!!
Golf is a LOT like long range shooting.
But there are a lot of golf guys who will sell their first born child to afford a long range driver and spend countless hours learning to use it.

Now i have two friends that scare me to death.
One went to Cabela's and bought himself a 33-378 Weatherby and is afraid to shoot it!
And the other, well he just bought himself a Christensen Arms in a .300, and he doesn't even know which .300 it is!!

But my OTHER buddy, well he shoots praire dogs with a home grown 6mm Akley improved w/ berger bullets out over 1000 yards and is not afraid to shoot his .300 wby in hunting conditions well over 500......he's used the "shooting beyond beleif" system for years now and is only getting better.

I guided an elk hunter two years ago that bragged about how good he can shoot his 30-378, that's always the first clue i'm going to be in trouble.....and i was.
He cleanly missed TWO 360+ bulls in five days under 300 yds!!

On the last day i cow called a 373 bull to us within blowgun distance and he hip shot it before it ran us over.
(that's no BS!!)

I nick named him Annie Oakley....Annie for short. Lol



48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Slam, you've been guiding for 17 years? You have to be VERY good at it to last that long. My hat's off to you! You seem like a great person and Lord knows I'll take someone of your stature when the animal is down and the real work begins!:)

Eel
 
Thanks eel, that's a great compliment!!

Yep, this year is #17, 3 on my own and 14 with an outfitter.

I was thumbing through my portfolio last night in fact cuz this just might be my last year.....man what a great ride it's been.

I remember each hunt like they were last year.
In 16 years of guiding, i've only had one hunt i couldn't wait to be over, but i have made 15 years worth of some really good life long friends.

The best part of guiding is not taking the animal, it's the people. :)








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Slamdunk Here is a question

How do you feel about the FMP videos. These guys promote the same style of beyond belief shooting. They have killed mule deer out to a 120 yards with a bow on film? They are also capable of killing deer at much farther distances.

They put in the practice
They have the equipment
70 plus lb bows
heavy wind bucking high foc arrows
expandable broadheads
angle compensating range finders
and adjustable one pin sights.
I have seen these type of setups shoot paper plate groups out to 190 yards without wind.
 
Hntbigbulls,

I've hunted a long time and with several different weapons. (We've (buddy & I) done quite well at that rifle golf course.) I can shoot something at a LONG way. It's not unethical and it's been several decades since I missed a big game animal. I've shot them running, long distance and stalked them close. I shot one with an arrow at about 3 feet.

This wasn't supposed to be about the ethics, but about what the equipment can do. I've got enough money and time in the equipment and enough practice time that I can shoot AT LEAST as well on the side of a mountain as I can at the range....something about "game time" that brings about a focus. I'm really good at estimating ranges.....practiced with my dad on the farm when I was 7 (1958) and still practice. When I'm considering a shot over about 350, I use a range finder......just to make certain. With the right equipment is is very doable (shooting long range) and takes no less skill nor effort than stalking to within 3 feet. The skills and effort are different not less reasonable. If I would get preachy in this...I would just say practice, practice, double-check the equipment and practice again.
 
Glad you got a chuckle gb22, i was grinning while i was typing and remembering that incident.

SWB-

You asked me a question about archery yardage.....wow, apples to oranges but it's a fair question.

I used to be a die hard archer, hunting and target, shot in many tournaments over the years and concidered myself pretty dang good judging by my trophy collection (statues).

Although i have hit my targets and practiced at what i'd call "long range" with a bow, 90 yards....i would have NEVER taken a shot like that at an animal.
We talked about how many mistakes can be made with a bullet that travels over 3000FPS, a light weight arrow at 300 fps is down right scary!!

So to answer your question, i think there are a special few that could pull off long range bow shot kills, but THAT margin for error is way too great to gamble with...... in my eyes.

Two thumbs down :)








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Slam thanks for your response I believe you are one of the guys with the ethics to know your limits

I personally believe there is no difference in shooting a 200 grain bullet out to 700 yards and shooting a 400 grain arrow out to 120 yards. Both carry enough kinetic energy to kill if they hit their mark. They both could still kill beyond that distance. The problem is we can not take out all the variables in a hunting situation and it just becomes more of a luck shot.

I will not risk either long shot with a bow or a rifle. The beyond belief to me is just that beyond belief.



Archery is a year round commitment!!
 

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