Sheep Judging Tips...

one_dryboot

one_dryboot

Long Time Member
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Just looking for some tips from those that have experience field judging sheep, to help you size up a ram?
This will be my first sheep hunt and I think this animal will probably be the hardest for me to judge. Score isnt everything for me as Im excited to just have a tag and be able to see these awesome animals in the wild, but I would like to know what im looking at and harvest the oldest, biggest ram I can. I know there is no substitute for personally looking at a lot of sheep, but I think I can learn alot from MM'ers.

Sincerely,



The Sheep virgin
 
rule number 1....NEVER....EVER...judge from the back


and.....big ones look big....



JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
Hey One Dry!
It is good to see you are priming yourself for this great opportunity! I think the next best thing to first hand looking is video footage. I still have my videos if we could connect. I also know that the late Duncan Gilchrist had a reportedly good video out on judging bighorns. I don't have that one, but someone close by might have it for you to borrow. Anyway, good luck
 
The Duncan Gilchrest video is very good, I've found it to be very helpful, it's pretty easy to find online and is user friendly. Hope you get big one!
 
Depends on the species of sheep, state/unit...etc!...But like everyone else has said....the big ones look big....Personally, I look for mass and then length.....I also try to count age rings when possible.
 
D 13r, For a rookie, that is great advice. For an experienced sheep hunter, the back veiw is a very good tale tell of mass retainment throughout the 1st and 2nd measurements. Many people offer such novice advice after being on only a few hunts, they all become experts when the ram dies and the tape hits the final toll.

Many "sheep hunters" speak of the WOW factor on judging sheep. Generaly, the WOW factor is the single biggest reason a hunter takes a ram. And, most times, the single biggest reason for ground shrinkage...memory of size becomes distorted with a few days. Most of the WOW rams are great sheep, but do not reach the proposed ideas of score. At this time, B&C does not include the WOW factor in its current scoring formula.

The best advice you will ever recieve is... Look at as many rams that you can find and kill the biggest one. Sounds simple I know, but thats why being familar with the unit you are hunting is so very much critical before the trigger is pulled. It's easy to look back and say "If I had the tag again!".

This is coming from a guide that has been there when the shot rang out on rams scoring from the mid 150's all the way to the 180's. They are easier to score when they are dead...they kick the sh-t out of you when they are alive. The score is never wrong when they still live!

Travis Scott
www.southwesthuntingadventures.com
 
they are rookies .....woulda been bad advice to an experienced sheep expert like you.


JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
Exactly...number of sheep hunts, no reservations, no expectations, no responsability = EXPERT! Thats why sheep hunting days have gone down, and expectantly the same, scores and age of rams takin are falling. But hey, you guy's keep on truckin! =)

Just pointing out the facts of 2010 old dads hunt. I have seen this menace to sheep long enough. Don't you realize this is the last time a hunter will have that tag in their pocket? Drop the wanna be ego and be willing to just listen.

It's easy to be as good as you think you are... when nobody is paying you!
 
Not sure what species you are hunting or where. But you should see what has come from the unit before if possible. No sence in looking for a broomed full curl ram if the last one killed in the the unit was in the mid 70's.

For me I always look for mass over length, this means usually a broomed ram. Look for a ram thats horns drops below the jaw line. Or like Duncan Gilchrist used to say "look for a inner circle the size of a volleyball".

If you are intent on score I would ignore anything with lamb tips as this usually means a younger sheep. There are exceptions to the rule but most older sheep will have broomed off their lamb tips. The older the ram the more mass he should have.

Unlike the first poster, I like to see the ram from the back. This will really seperate the men from the boys when looking at mature sheep. The big guys will look a lot bigger at the bases from the back and you will see the mass carry on down to the first quater measurement. On a younger ram the base will look big but it it will taper quickly. If you are only looking at a band of 6 year olds it will be tough to tell which is the biggest. But throw in a 8 year old and you will quickly tell who the boss is from the back.

Like another poster mentioned, try to look at as many live sheep as possible, in books or magazines. It also really helps to see all the age classes. Most people only take pics of the big guys, but rarely take pics of the younger guys with the big guy. Thats why seeing them in person is so much help.

I also count age rings, but that should be left to the experts as its tough to do..

BHB
 
Lots of good info guys, thank you!

Its Utah Rocky Mtn. Sheep on Range Creek. The area I will be hunting is along the Green River. Some great rams have been taken out of this unit in the past with 16+ bases and upper 30's in length. The potential is there.
The way I understood D's post is dont just judge them from the back because they always look bigger. just like mule deer, You see a decent muley walking away and he looks bigger until you walk up to him on the ground. And just like deer you need all angles. But I could be wrong, im just a rookie!
The hunt runs the whole month of november so they will be rutting during the hunt. If needed, I can take the whole month to find what im looking for.
I can tell you this about myself as a hunter. I am not one to get an itchy trigger finger and tag out just to kill. I enjoy the hunt, being in the mountions and watching wildlife too much to punch my tag just to kill one. This is a 100% success rate hunt and average days hunted is 5 days. I know I can kill a ram, its just a matter of finding one that will make me happy on the hoof and in my tropyh room.
 
Toss me your snail mail addy and I will send you a movie on judging BHS.

Or if we live kinda close you could swing by and get it...

Robb
 
One other tip...Unless you have seen a particular ram with other rams, don't trust your first instinct. Sheep bodies can vary greatly in size, sometimes making the horns appear to be much larger than what they actually are, aka...dwarf.
 
Some good info. I'm not an expert with years of experience. I have been on two sheep hunts.

1. Talk with the sheep biologist and get ave base and length from past sheep harvested from the last 2-3 years.

2. Very few Utah Rocky sheep will make B&C record book. Shoot one you like.

3. Look at a lot of sheep. A broomed off sheep with good mass on his last quarter is generally one that needs a closer look.

4. Some units have tighter curl genetics and some longer open curl. My MT sheep had a tight curl 15 3/8 base x 39 length that scored 184 7/8 gross 10 1/2 yrs old.

My Nephews Utah Rattle Snake sheep was 7 1/2 yr old. 16 x 33 broomed off open curl. It scored 174 4/8. Both sheep are great rams but very different.

Look at a lot of pictures and sheep in the field. Have a friend who has judging experience tag along with some scouting trips if possible.

I wish I was hunting sheep this fall. Good luck.
Have fun and post some pictures.

We were both very fortunate and pleased with those sheep.
 
Good information for you here Mr one-dryboot! You'll make it a great hunt and kill a trophy to be proud of. Remember my Rocky Mountain Oysters too! You'll have to be brave enough to try them.

Side note:
Have you ever noticed that it's just as important HOW we say something as WHAT we say? Some people have never learned how to ADD information and still be right.

Biting my tongue,
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-11 AT 11:43AM (MST)[p]Hey One Dry,
You and Please Dear (Robb) are practically neighbors from what I gather. I would definitely take him up on the video. He is a cranky old fart, but I think you might get along great! ha
Oh and I have never heard Zeke spout off while biting his toung! But we are all friends here...right?
 
And don't forget to save the scrotum (ball sack) and have tobacco or coin pouches made from them. Leave the fur on too. I've had them made up from both my Dall and Desert BH rams...they make good conservation pieces.
 
Wow, lots of info thrown out today! Hopefully I can apply some of it and not get caught in the moment. Maybe zeke will stay in my back pocket if the price is right?
For those that offered to lend video's, thank you very much. I'll take you up on it, even buy them from you if you dont want them anymore.
Thanks for the great info, Ill be sure to report back on how all this info was put to use. good or bad
 
>I think speaking with an official
>B&C scorer about this might
>help some.

Do you know any?


I'm jealous dryboot. I burned up all my good luck last year.


4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
>1911
>
>Yes I do know one and
>he posts here at MM.
>

Hmm...maybe you can get you buddy to chime in.


4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
I have a few pics of my sister on my motorcycle I could post up? Not completely naked but lots of skin. Shes already floating around the campfire
 
One good way to judge the mass on a ram is looking at it head on look at how big the gap is between the base of the horns and his ears. The bigger the gap the lass mass he will have. Also western hunter magazine had a great artical on field judging sheep. What ever you do dont use the gap between the two horns to judge base circumference.
 
Hey sagebucks,
Too bad they didn't show any BIG rams in that magazine article! LOL.

I read and re-read that article when it first arrived. Probably one of the best things I've seen on the subject.

They did talk about the "WOW" factor...... and then take a closer look!

For me it has as much, or more, to do with the ram's age than the score. But everyone is looking for different things.

I will say that we sometimes get caught up in thinking that sheep hunting is like walking the store isles and making our shopping selection. It's still hunting and things can go side-ways. That's why we call it sheep hunting and not sheep shopping.

Zeke
 
Zeke
I could not agree with you more its mot all about the score i think a ram that is all chipped up and looks like an old warrior is just as good as a ram that is clean and has no chips out of his horn. I killed a desert that has two chunks missing on one side and one on the other. And i would not trade that ram for any of the other rams i saw on that hunt he was a prover fighter and looks great.
I posted the artical because i thought it had some great pionts on how to look at a ram and decide if he is a respectable ram or not also the fact that they talked about the historical data from a unit is crucial.
 
Look to see how big the circle is exposing the ear. If you can barely fit your fist in there, you know his tight and short. You also want those rams that swing way back, and drop even or below the jaw line.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-19-11 AT 09:04AM (MST)[p]
I've seen rams that have the "WOW" factor that actually score less than what everybody thinks including myself. I've also seen rams that just look like a solid ram altogether that score amazingly high. I'm gonna say judging rams is one tough SOB! My best advice is look at as many rams as you can while scouting and during the hunt and shoot what you consider the best one and just be happy with what you kill.

On another note historical data can be helpful, but it's not the scripture. I say that because when you're reading the data it doesn't give you any info pertaining to the hunt or the hunter. I've seen data in units where the unit average is lets say 160 B&C and the average base is 14" with the average age is between 6 and 8 years old. What that tells me is most of the hunters in the past only settled for a 7 year old 160 ram and maybe they didn't go that extra mile and look in the far corners of the unit. What I'm trying to say here is, I've seen units be downgraded for quality according to harvest reports that actually had very high scoring rams in them and were dying of old age.















Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-19-11 AT 08:52AM (MST)[p]This just looks like a good solid ram. He came from a unit that the unit record was 154" B&C. He doesn't have the "WOW" factor to the average sheep enthusiast.


8176socorro+2010+_edit.jpg















Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
Those sheep scoring articles crack me up. The always show high scoring B&C rams, as if they are common with every sheep hunt.
 
Look for a ram that's not frozen solid! They're so hard to quarter and pack out!
Dammit, that looks cold! (good lookin' ram though)

Hey one-dryboot,

Are you feeling any additional effects of your rear-ender car crash? Good luck getting over the stiffness. Thanks for your willingness to sign-over your tag..... just in case! haha

Zeke
 
You are right on the spot there Mt dwalton. That's why in one of my posts I asked why the didn't show any BIG ones in the article....LOL!

We can throw out numbers all day long but they might not be appicable to the unit. Research and scouting are the keys for sure.

Zeke

>Those sheep scoring articles crack me
>up. The always show
>high scoring B&C rams, as
>if they are common with
>every sheep hunt.
 
Yeah Zeke he's a good looking ram...He would be a first day shooter in a unit that the average ram is 150" B&C... I'm just wondering, would he be a first day shooter in a unit that has a long history of producing big (175+) B&C desert rams? I know it's just one look but usually the first look gives the first impression on whether or not to consider pursuing him.

Lets say for example one of us has a tag in a premium unit and somebody emailed this pic to you. What would the reaction be?













Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-19-11 AT 12:27PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-19-11 AT 12:24?PM (MST)

Mr Mesquitehunter.

I think we agree on most sheep topics and I'll bet this is no exception. We'll see.

You and I know that a 3D, live, on-the-hoof look is a bunch better than an internet pic. EXTREMELY HARD TO JUDGE SINCE THERE IS ONLY 1 SHEEP IN THE PHOTO.

My knee-jerk reaction is about 155", maybe a bit better. He's a good looking ram and would NOT be a first day ram in any of the better units. In UT he'd be a top-end ram in several units though. In your neck-o-woods, he's probably a last day ram. In NV, that ram would only bring mild interest...not panic to get him on the groung.

Did I answer your question or just show my ignorance while beating around the bush?

I guess it boils down to the unit, area, State etc. That's why research and scouting are important to me. Remember that in some units, with which I'm familiar, a hunter might scout and hunt 10-15 days before seeing a ram like that. What should he do?

Like you've said many times, sheep are tough to judge.... especially when they're alone.

Zeke

PS: He's got some age and would require a closer look for sure. Since he's frozen in place I would walk up to him and put my tape on the horns!!!!!
 
Zeke I agree, being on some dead rams and looking at rams alive on the hoof or even looking at mounts can be valuable practice . Even the best make mistakes.


For a guy who really wants to learn how to judge rams for his hunt in future should try and be a part of as many sheep hunts he can get his hands on. It takes some sacrifices to go on another persons hunt but wrapping your hands around a dead rams horns and watching the hunt unfold is he best way to learn. Reading books, watching video's or looking at pics is no real way to learn.


The pic I posted is a good example at why pics are the worst way to try and figure score or learn to judge.














Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
Once again we agree!
It's damn hard to be an expert with a little internet research!

Hey, books, vids, pics, internet, etc, is a start though. Most guys won't ever get invited on a hunt so they have to be content with what they can do.

If a guy has a tag, one of the best things to do is BE THERE in the unit and see as many animals a possible.... or..... hire a great guide and enjoy the hunt. Some guys don't have the time or ability to scout, learn, etc. To them a great guide makes all the sense in the world and diminishes nothing from the hunting experience. The guides, who I know, have become friends and would enrich the sheep experience!

Zeke
 
That pic is certainly deceiving. I know what that pig ended up a SUPER ram!!

------------------
DRSS
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-19-11
>AT 08:52?AM (MST)
>
>This just looks like a good
>solid ram. He came from
>a unit that the unit
>record was 154" B&C. He
>doesn't have the "WOW" factor
>to the average sheep enthusiast.
>
>
>
>
8176socorro+2010+_edit.jpg

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Gun control is a good aim
>and a steady rest


Don't know if that ram's score was posted, but I'll say, if the other side is a match 183 ish. He's about 36ish long, big loop and 16 ish for bases. That's my guess anyway !
 
Zeke,

Well do you want the good news or bad? The bad news (for you) is I will not die from my wreck so I will not be turning my tag over to you. the good news is I just shot a lope with one of them Vld's today.
Thanks everyone for great information, Lots of good stuff being shared!
 
My advice which is worth exactly what you'll pay for it is make yourself happy or go home empty. It sounds pretty simple cause it is. If the tape will make you unhappy you need to really do your work cause a few 1/8ths are tough to judge on the hoof. On the other hand could the tape alone make you happy?? If it can I feel sorry for you, a sheep hunt is so much more than a dead animal at your feet.
If you get a 8+ yr old ram with broomed tips and he "only " goes 33" will you be pissed off at yourself? How bout -even easier he "only" has 15" bases instead of what you guessed were 15-1/2"??

Myself I found a full curl and counted 8 growth rings and figured it would be fine - and it was he went 36"+ and 11 yrs old. But I wouldn't have shot myself if he'd been 34"x 14" by 9 yrs old...

A lot is the potential of the unit too as well as weapon choice. Another factor is how many do you have on the wall already?? Way too many people hunt for what will make someone they admire or respect give them praise instead of enjoying what can be a once in a lifetime thrill in some of God's finest work...
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-11 AT 01:54PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-11 AT 01:53?PM (MST)

ToothandTine you are right on the money what the ram scores. He grosses 184 and change and nets 183 and change.

My whole point is this ram doesn't have the "WOW" factor and he was killed in a unit where the unit record was 154..

So in other words historical data can be somewhat helpful but don't rely on it too much because it could cost you a big ram.

Sometimes it does payoff to hire a good reputable guide who knows what to look for instead of the "WOW" factor.
















Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
Without knowing the score on that buck pictured above. I would think it has the wow factor. He carries his mass all the way out. I was guessing close to 170". When I saw my ram last year, he had the "WOW" factor bigtime. I didn't even care that he had a collar because he was in another class from what I had been seeing. I also agree it really matters where you are hunting and what unit.












There's always next year
 
>D13er always judges his sheep from
>the back. He can't fool
>me.
>
>Eel

Eel

I have to step in and defend my friend Jb. He judges rams from the side and front. The judging of ewes is a different matter.
 
Thanx mesquitehunter, I thought I was close, lucky to be bang on. Rams are no different than any other horned/ antlered animal, the more you practice and the more you hold the better you get.
 
When I first saw that pic I said I would shoot that ram. He looked great to me. Looked like good mass all the way out, nice big full curl, big hole in middle. It had wow factor to me! I know a ram like that is not the norm but one can dream. But like I said, I want to look over alot of rams, have a blast on a dream hunt with a few friends and family and kill the biggest/prettiest ram I can find.. Then sit around the fire B.S'ing and have Zeke cook up some of them Oysters he's been braggin about! :)
 
Dang, you guys are starting to get me excited about my 27L tag up here in Eye-D-Ho. Luckily for me, any WOW factor means shoot! I'm more concerned about discerning a 162 from a 170. Well, not really. If my heart starts beating really fast, that's my clue. Yes, there are some mid 180 rams taken from time to time in that unit, but very rare. This will be my 3rd sheep hunt in 27 (but first as tagholder), but have done several other sep/oct/nov hunts for deer and elk, and you dont exactly trip over rams. We did get a nice full curl 171ish a few years ago....I misjudged him (at 1500 yds) at about 165 to 167. We saw 3 rams that hunt. Point being, I really appreciate this thread and I've learned a lot. History of the unit is really important. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the (tag) beholder. Bottom line for me: I'm 45 and peaking...and it could be awhile till I draw again, that is tough tough arse country to hunt next time; mid 160s, prolly goin to happen; 170 range, tickled pink!

Anyone know any of the other Unit 27 tag holders?

ted
 
Great information for anyone who loves wild sheep whether you have a tag or not.

Internet photos are some of the most difficult to judge. I saw a pic of a 400+ bull and the 1 dimensional photo made the bull look like a 350", at best. In the field judging is easier for me because I get the various "3D" views of the ram, buck, bull etc. I think that's why some have said don't rely on the first look. Maybe wait until you've seen more and then process the information correctly before pulling the trigger.

One_dryboot, How many times did you have to bang that 'lope with those VLD's before he went down? LMAO, sorry bro, I couldn't resist! You've started the season with a bang, keep it going!

Zeke
 
Hey guys,
I don't know that you need any more suggestions on this topic. There are some great ideas for sheep nuts! (not to be confused with the RM Oysters that Zeke is supposed to be able to make edible. IMO they are way over-rated) But sitting around a campfire with good friends is always everything it is cracked up to be!
Congrats powder digit and good luck to you guys in judging!
I am confident that if you pay your dues and go with the goal of having a great time, the judging part will take care of itself.
Happy hunting guys and keep us posted so we can enjoy your success...all be it vicariously.
 
If anyone has a video on scoring Rocky mountain sheep, I would appreciate it if I could borrow it. If you could provide me information on any books or articles that would assist me on my Az hunt that would be appreciated as well. I will update my hunt on this site with photos as well.
 
OK ODB!
Keep throwing out sheep hunting questions and there are plenty of us Ovis hunter "wannabes" to stir the pot.
Nothing better than talking sheep!
 
There are few things I'd rather do than hunt and talk about sheep. That's why I'm an ovis wannabe! I guess you're one too Mr Littlebighorn. Good luck to your son on the Wasatch archery elk hunt. Leave a big one for my daughter.
Zeke
 
Zeke, the stick and string thing is very tough right now. Sat water holes for 3 days and haven't had an elk come into range.

greatwestern, IMO he scores...more than enough for me! Great ram and thanks for the post. Not seen that one before, but he is a hog
 
Call me silly but that ran looks like it would score..... WOW.

Do you know where it's from Mr GW?

Zeke
 
Sheep are tricky lil devils to score, that's for sure. I've seen some of the most experienced/respected sheep hunters misjudge rams and I've seen amateurs almost hit it spot on. It's all a matter of getting out and putting your eyes on sheep. There is a lot of good info in this post and with the western hunter article.

A couple years ago the group I was hunting with passed up what we thought was a good desert ram, several experienced and well respected sheep hunters couldn't put the ram over 168 so they passed him, he was only 300 yards away. They told another hunter, who was in his 70s and couldn't walk too much, about the ram. Well he whacked him and guess what?the ram we thought was just under 168 ended up going over 174? What they didn't account for was an odd egg shaped horn that went back quite a ways before dropping. I guess the egg shaped horn left a little egg on our faces... But don't you worry, we ended up killing a toad of a ram ourselves.

Good luck on your hunt!
 
There is alot to be said about that in the stonewall area in nevada the sheep can be tricky to judge they are wide flaring rams and from the sid might not look like they are long at all.
 
Heck of a ram Greatwestern !!! Caped out makes judging the even more difficult. I'll take a stab at it and say 191. What state/ Province is that from?

Any story , and other pics to go with that monster?

TNT
 
Great looking ram. Without knowing the area I would not even want to guess. I would say that it is probably a great ram for the area it was killed in regardless of score. However the score all hinges on the bases and without having an idea of the area that is hard to tell. The more time I spend around sheep hunting and rams the more I think if everyone hunted their unit hard and killed the ram they liked best and NEVER had it scored they would all be happy with the experience. More often than not scoring a great ram from MOST units only will lead to the chance at disappointment based on that number. Only a handful of units in states other than Montana produce rams with really high scores regardless of age. Somehow we equate the SCORE with hunter ability and our satisfaction of the hunt. We see a 170 class ram killed in Wyoming that was 10 years old and think little of it and then we see a 6 year old from the Breaks that is 195. The guy in Wyoming hunted his ass off and killed one of the best in the unit yet the score is disappointing because everyone asks him "what did it score?"
 
Sheep are so much easier to score when they are dead!!! They kick the sheet out of you when they are alive =). Shoot the ram you love, it will be the last one you get to enjoy more than likely.
 
Thanks for the kind words Zeke and littlebighorn! Didn't intent to hijack the post, as there is a lot of good info above. TJ
 
Hijacking wasn't out intent. We're trying to hit 100 posts for one_dryboot! His desire. lol

Zeke
 
lol I really didnt think I would get many reply's but I guess I was wrong. There is great info in the last 76+ posts and I thank all Ya'll. I only have one question left that remains unanswered.
Do wild sheep act the same as domestic's when stuck in the fence, or am I going to get kicked when trying to help them get unstuck? :) jk Really I appreciate all the info and cant wait to get out and see some rams and the country they live in.
 
A great trick I learned was to baah like a ewe. Rams come running from everywhere. Then while they are trying to figure out how to jump you, wrestle the biggest one to the ground and throw a tape on him. You will only have time for one horn because the others will want a piece of the action! LOL (slow morning at work...100 posts here we come!)
 
That is some great advice but I dont want to score the sheep stuck in the fence. I just dont want to get kicked. Should I wear big tall boots?
 
The hard part isn't getting them to come it, its keeping them around. This is why I always pack a pair of Velcro gloves...trust me I'm Basque.....
 
One-dry

Mr ttj said he'd email a Stone sheep photo to you.

I've enjoyed all the sheep hunting talk. I usually learn a tip or two from some of the guys on here.

Thanks, Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-11 AT 10:56PM (MST)[p]Ok so I spoke with the said O.M via P.M. and he said once he recieves his 6 pack of choice he will send me his personal phone number.
Well a week went by and finally he wrote back and told me to give him a call on his work number (800) 782-2625. I have been on the phone for hours now hoping to catch him with no luck. I guess he forgot to give me his ext. maybe one of these days ill catch him at work instead of talking to all of his co workers?
Im not sure if this is his correct number but its what he gave me? Have a been scammed?
 

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