Troy
We agree on this. Habitat decides how many animals a range can handle. Predators and hunters and highways and disease play a part as well. The winters killed out deer. That is pretty well known.
But now many many things play in the part of keeping them from recovering. But we refuse to look into and address one of them.
Troy we have been killing coyotes for years, we have been killing lions for years, we have been doing habitat for years, we have been cutting hunters out for years and all the while we have been growing more and bigger expanding elk herds.
Our deer HERDS are not better then they were 15 years ago. Yes there are some bigger bucks but that has nothing to do with killing coyotes, lions and doing habitat and everything to do with shutting down areas and limiting hunters.
Those are undeniable facts.
I did A LOT of homework when I ran the MDF on habitat and range and Colorado is completly different then Utah. Not only from actually winter range and summer range but also from precipitation and the effect of the human population.
The 2 states cannot be compared as there is nothing in common between them,
Deseret is also VERY different from the rest of the state. They MICRO manage a relativly small area and change permits yearly as well as feed when needed.
ALso you rarly see a massive buck or massive bull harvested on Deseret. Why is that? In fact name me one place in this world you kill big deer and big elk together consistantly. There is not one. Colorados elk when it comes to trophy size is a joke. Can't you see that elk and deer simply dont do well together even in a place where habitat and management is tightly controlled "Deseret". Sure there will always be a couple good bucks shot where there are elk, or a good bull in Colorado occaisionally, but that is just good fortune.
Troy it is the one thing this state, SFW, MDf and everyone is has failed to reealize, Acknowledge and do something about.
ELk effect and displace and out compete deer and I know this for a fact. I have seen the transformation over the last 15 years. LOng before I worked with SFW or MDF i saw the effect of elk and said it. I see elk on 10,000 foot ridges and desert floors. Places you NEVER saw elk and always saw deer. NOw there is no deer in those places and lots of elk. If elk and deer didnt compete then There wouldn't be an open bull kill every elk in site season on the Henry Mountains. But you guys want to preserve those massive bucks so you dont let elk thrive there.
You could kill every lion and coyote out there and it wont fix the deer herds in Utah until you get the elk under control.
When will the desire for 400" or 500" elk stop dictating our direction of deer managment. When will the greed of a few stop overshadowing the wants and needs of the majority? When will wildife and our opportunity to hunt rise back to the level of being more important then the feeling of entitlement a few have to want to shoot a 400" bull?
Troy we are past the point of having a problem with our deer herds and we are in a crisis situation. If the SFW and the Elk committee and the DWR increase age objectives of elk and MDF allows it, it will be one more nail in the coffin in deer,
I am very very tired of the "look what we have done" attitude and answer we always hear from SFW. Nothing has changed for our deer herds since SFW's inception other then we have half as many hunters and more limited entry deer units and less places for the average man to hunt with his family. ( so I guess that is worth it because now we kill a few big bucks a year).
SFW has done good NO QUESTION about it, but not when it comes to our deer and opportunity to hunt them. The numbers dont lie. There are more deer hunters in this state still then all the other hunters put together. There are more general deer tags in this state then all the other tags put together, why dont You, SFW, MDF, DWr and anyone else that say they care about deer address that rather then worrying about 500" elk, Killing animals on Antelope island, and creating an expo that is only padding the pockets of individuals instead of putting money into mule deer.
This is not personal, this is how the VAST majority of the sportsman in this state feel. Only 8,000 people applied for the expo tags according to Don's post. thats not even 10% of the deer hunters in this state. Wake up and see what is happening.
Our deer are declining and our elk are increasing, its the only variable YOU,SFW,MDF,DWR and the wildlife board has not and refuses to look into and address. Why is that?
I find it interesting.
Tony
