SFW buying Land for Stone Sheep In BC!

akah2o

Member
Messages
81
Word from the former SFW president is that SFW is buying a Outfitting business in BC for Stone Sheep! Glad to know that my previous years donations went to fund hunting outside of Utah.

More "opportunity" for the wealthy to pull a tag.

Just another thorn in my back side to irritate the heck out of me by the bull crap that SFW is doing...
 
First of all, the new unit will bring in money to help fund projects. Second of all that money did not come from your contibutions. Don't jump to conclutions until you know what is goig on. You play a guessing game without the full facts.

Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, It's about learning to dance in the rain
 
is their a connection between that guide who bought the auction tags and the SFW buying that property?
 
lmfao dons private hunting res!
hornkiller.jpg
 
Technically SFW isn't buying land. They are buying an outfitting territory in BC. They won't own the land, just the exclusive right to guide hunters within a given geographic area. I believe the area was formerly Frank Simpson's, aka Simpson Stone Sheep Outfitting. The new business operating in that concession will be called Full Curl Stone Outfitters.

This isn't really anything new, SFW has owned Arctic Red River Outfitters for years. That's one reason why the Full Curl Society is able to "give away" so many dall sheep hunts with that outfitter...no money has to change hands.

I am not a member of SFW so I really don't know how these things work but if I had to guess I would say that SFW justifies these sheep hunting enterprises in Canada as a way to invest capital and earn a return while stewarding habitat.

That being said I have a rather cynical nature that makes me wonder if any SFW "insiders" get to go on awesome hunting trips in Canada at far below the market rate? I don't know. Does SFW provide a statement to their dues paying members disclosing what these outfits gross and return on investment? I don't know. If I were paying SFW dues in Utah or any other state and my money wasn't going to hit the ground in my state then I would want to know the answers to these questions.

It is possible that large donors may have approached SFW and wanted to give a million or two dollars to the organization and designated that the money be used to buy one of these outfitting concessions. Thus, SFW gets an asset and revenues...no member dues are spent.?.?

It might be worth noting that "not for profit"(NFP) organizations must operate within the scope of their enterprise as described when they filed for tax exempt status. In other words it might not be legal to organize a NFP to feed starving children in Africa, raise money under that premise, use the money to open a bar and then say any proceeds from the bar will be sent to Africa. I am sure SFW has attorneys smart enough to navigate the legalities of their operations in Canada...On the other hand it isn't uncommon for someone to leave their estate to a University and the school ends up with a farm or an apartment building, etc. Those assets aren't related to education but the school keeps them and reaps the revenue they generate.

The bottom line is really whether any SFW officers go to these concessions in Canada and who pays for the trip!!
 
This stuff simply amazes me. When are the folks of Utah going to stand up and take back what is yours. You are now paying for a private hunting ground for the higher ups at SFW to hunt stone sheep. In the next ten years or so someone is going to federal prison for fraud. Just keep watching.

Rich
 
>Birdman, where is the money coming
>from?
>
>Rich
I smell something dirty I wonder if Utah game Dept.could help.
 
"That being said I have a rather cynical nature that makes me wonder if any SFW "insiders" get to go on awesome hunting trips in Canada at far below the market rate? I don't know. Does SFW provide a statement to their dues paying members disclosing what these outfits gross and return on investment? I don't know. If I were paying SFW dues in Utah or any other state and my money wasn't going to hit the ground in my state then I would want to know the answers to these questions"?
Good questions
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-15 AT 12:18PM (MST)[p]




Uphill: No, as I understand it they do not provide an accounting. So they could say anything they want without any evidence supporting where the money comes from, goes to, who gets the hunts, etc.

So the normal question to Birdman would be: Back up what you say. Anyone can say anything on the internet. "Show me the money"...trail

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I suppose there are a lot of different reasons and purposes for do the things SFW does. Some make sense, some might not, especially if your looking at it without being in the planning meetings when SFW leadership make the decisions they do, to purchase and fund these kinds of things. As someone said in an earlier post, SFW does not own the land in BC or in the North West Territories, they lease it from the Governments of those places for the purpose of hunting and fishing. And, they cannot prevent the Canadian citizens from hunting on the lease, if they want to, they just have the rights to sell and guide hunters that want to purchase their services. If a BC resident wants to pack into to this concession, set up his camp and hunt sheep or what ever, he has every right to do it. So the land remains open to the BC public hunters. There are hundreds of these "hunting concessions" in Canada. You and I can purchase one of them at any time the existing leasee/concessionaire wants to sell his business. There is a real estate company in Canada that specializes in selling these, if your interested in buying one and doing the same thing SFW is doing.

It is:http://www.mccowans.com/

Look under "Listings" on the top line of the web pages. Pick British Columbia and there a lot of these businesses available for sale right now. Starting at $35,000 and going up to one that just sold for $1,700,000. Buy one, and sell your permits to who ever you want, or donate them to family, friends, business partners or who ever. They are yours to do as you wish.

Regarding the Arctic Red River concession that SFW purchased some years ago, and I don't even know if it was SFW or if it was just some of SFW's leadership that purchased Arctic Red. At any rate, SFW was, and is involved with Arctic Red. Where did the money to purchase it come from. It was donated by an SFW member that wanted to make it available to Wounded Warriors, parents of war heros, conservation donors, auction winners, raffle winners, etc. Four million dollars comes to mind but that may be wrong. Does the donor have any input in the operation? Darned if I know. Don't care if he has complete control or if he just handed SFW 4 big ones and said, "all the best".

I understand it has worked well for the intended purposes. Have SFW members or executive staff been invited to hunt at Arctic Red? I don't know, but they certainly could have. Those permits belong to the concessionaire(SFW) and they are allowed to sell them or give them to whom ever they please. The same as you could do, if you owned the concession.

Now, why did they purchase the recent BC concession?

I don't know all the reasons, nor are they any of my business. However, an executive officer told me a couple of years ago, SFW was considering looking into another concession because a lot of people who win the raffle hunts etc. at the Expo and other events sponsored by SFW, for fund raising purposed, would win the hunt but then could not afford the costs associated with actually going to and from the concession at Arctic Red River. The cost to fly to Yellowknife, North West Territories, the charter plane cost to get from Yellowknife to Norman Wells, then a second charter plane from Norman Wells into the Arctic Red River concession, tips for the guides and cooks, then all the fees associated with flying out the animal, the fees associated with Canadian/NWT exportation, etc, etc. was enormous. So a guy like you or I might win a raffle for a dall sheep hunt by purchasing a $20 raffle ticket, but have to come up with $6000/$7000 to pay for all the other costs associated with getting in an out of the concession. So.................SFW was going to look around and see if they couldn't find another kind of concession, that was located where people that could not afford all the "extra costs" associated with winning a hunt, could drive to, in their own vehicle, or at the very least, face far less expensive air fares, so they wouldn't end up turning the prize back or going into debt, to go on the hunt.

Did SFW make the BC purchase for additional reasons. Don't know. I'll wage they had other logical reasons, like different species were available, not available at Arctic Red, cheaper species like deer, elk, black bear etc. so more than just sheep and caribou hunts can be donated and or sold, operating over head might be less costly, more growth potential, maybe another donor came along, with a different view and wanted to develop his ideas at a different location. Hell, there were probably many reasons they did it, not just the one I was given, years before it happened.

This isn't going to satisfy those that wish to find fault, nor is it intended to. It might provide others a little insight into the reasons for these activities by SFW. It's not likely as sinister as they would have you believe.

If others have more information, maybe they will offer greater insight. Negative speculation is permissible, and anticipated, as it seems to provide some folks such inordinate satisfaction.

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-15 AT 05:33PM (MST)[p]That all sounds reasonable and could make perfect sense. However, I have been invited/solicited to join them on numerous occasions and I haven't. Why not? Their stated goals align with what I want from a wildlife/hunting org? Because when you join an org. like the RMEF, every member can get an accounting about where there money is going. Is this the case with SWF?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-15 AT 07:31PM (MST)[p]Apparently you're in need of more and/or different information that I need txhunter58.

I've have or have had membership in dozens of different conservation/hunting/fishing/shooting/civic (such as Rotary International, Utah Higher Education, Utah Republican Party, etc.)/political parties/educational organizations/business organizations and associations. Actually more than I can even remember on a moments notice. Owning various businesses, working for government bureaucracies, serving on various Boards of Directors, appointments to various administrative positions in various for profit and as well as non-profit organizations, I've always been able to secure the kind, degree and detail regarding the financial matters of the organizations I have been associated with. More for some than for others. Depending on my personal involvement and personal need for accountability. As a member of some of these conservation/hunting/fishing groups I've needed less information than I needed as an officer or Board Member of other organizations.

As a paying member of RMEF, Ducks Unlimited, MDF, SCI, SFW and a half dozen others, I have never been in a position where I needed to know the financial detail that I need when I was the President of our Local Chapter of Rotary International, or the Chairman of the University Center, or the Secretary Treasure of the Utah Wildlife Federation, or the Vice President of the Utah Muzzleloader Association, or the Treasure of the Utah Center for Educational Technology.

As a member of SFW, not as an executive officer, I have sufficient access to the financial information to satisfy my personal need to know, based on my involvement with the organization. The same is true for RMEF, MDF or Ducks Unlimited. I understand that you want and or need more. If they choose to provide the additional information that you need, I'm okay with that, but I don't need it. Then too, if SFW or any other organization choose to limit your access, to the the degree that you would be satisfied, that is between you and them, none of my business.

Clearly, you require more than I but then........ they are not meeting your needs, that's okay with me too. If the amount of information is not sufficient for you, it's not my issue or my problem. You decide who you associated with and why, and I do the same.

This issue of transparency and financial access to SFW's business has been discussed, and investigated by far smarter individuals and guys with more integrity than me. Not that I see myself as lacking integrity, but some certainly might, just because I support SFW. So far, after all the accusations, State and Federal investigations and audits, SFW continue to do the kind of business that satisfies me and my involvement level. If ever, that changes, that is, if they do something, or behave in an illegal or in what I believe is an unethical manner, I will move on and let those guilty of the crime or the unethical behavior (my judge of unethical of course, because in some folks mind, if an SFW executive Officer gets out of bed in the morning, he's being unethical) pay the price and suffer the consequences of their actions.

I have been a SFW member of 10 or 12 years, not the 20 years, like some folks. I was very opposed to SFW when they first came to be, over 20 years ago, then I went through a period of passive membership, then a period of limited support, and for the last three years, as I have gotten to know the individuals who run the organization better, and taken the opportunity to get more directly involved, by attend more meetings and volunteering for more activities and conservation projects, consequently I have become an active and committed member.

You, on the other hand, have chosen a different path. Your needs have not been satisfied, I understand that. I'm okay with that. We have different needs and different expectations. I've read your post over the last year or two, I think your a smart, good guy, with the best of intentions. Truth is, any man that takes care of animals the way a veterinarian doctor does is a friend of mine, regardless of our other difference.

I know I don't do a very good job of explaining myself txhunter, I hope I haven't offended you or anyone else, with the same concerns. I would do better if I could. What I'm really try to say is, it's okay with me for you to take the position you have, your needs are not being met as you need/want them met and but I'm okay with SFW's position as well, they are doing what they need/want as well. Your each doing what you want to do, with in the constraints of the system.

DC
 
Man, nice to have a discussion with an adult! We are both members of organizations that meet our needs to further our agendas to keep our hunting heritage strong. And we can agree to disagree and not resort to name calling. Sounds like we would have a lot of fun discussing life over a campfire. And you are probably doing lots of good within the SWF. Power to you there! I do like lots of transparency in organizations to which I contribute, whether it is for wildlife or even religious/good Samaritan organizations.

The bright side is that one of the worst organizations for getting the most bang for their buck in the HSUS. They have one of the worst track records for % of money taken in actually making it to projects. Just hope that continues.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Well said DC. As much as people want to see SFW fail, there are those want to see SFW succeed. They want to see SFW very successful in what they do for wildlife. I hated SFW until about 9 years age. I did some investigation. Turned out I liked what was going on and started to support them. I did not
listen to others. I wanted to know for myself. If someone says if you buy this I will donate the money. How great can a organization be to have people do that.
There are people who would like SFW to go on forever. They will do what they can including money. These BC hunting units bring money to SFW for projects. The board is made up of business men who know what they are doing. after knowing the people running SFW I am satisfied with where the money goes and how things are done.

Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, It's about learning to dance in the rain
 
Birdman, I am more skeptical than you. I was present the night in 1994 when the SFW concept and organization was announced.I supported the group through the last century. I have grown more disappointed by SFW over the years as they seem to have taken wildlife conservation for the people backwards as much as forward. At first, all of the mistakes, seemed to me, to start about the time the conservation permit program did. Using hindsight its easy to see the problems and mistakes started almost immediately.

264mag I got a chuckle out of your post because in my mind, SFW is just the Private Sector Utah DWR funding arm. I used to think that SFW (the tail) wagged the dog (the Utah DWR) lately I am more inclined to view SFW as a component of the Utah DWR. If that is true I would tend to think: of coarse DWR guys are going to be going on free Stone Sheep hunts.
 
The reason this is a terrible thing to happen is that SFW should be taking the strong stand against Canadian Mountain range sheep hunting monopolys . Not supporting and profiting from them! This is a great example of why SFW is the problem not the solution! Wildlife and sportsmen are just components on the SFW assembly line.Your concerns as a sportman and your rights dont matter to SFW. SFW just wants to profit from you and they want to control and profit from wildlife.

For example; can you think of one good reason a stone sheep hunt in BC that costs $40,000 should cost more than a Rocky Mountain Bighorn sheep hunt in Wyoming, that costs $8,000? Do they have to use thoroughbred race horses to access the mountains in Canada?.. On my stone sheep hunt in BC jughead draft horses were used. I rode a foxtrotter or a mule on my wyoming Rocky hunt.The bottom line is that in Wyoming multiple outfitters were allowed to compete for my business as a sheep hunter.No one had exclusive rights to guide me in Wyomings Gros Ventre Wilderness like they did in the Carriar Mountais in Canada.

Sheep hunting monopolies like this one are terrible for sportsmen and do nothing more than raise prices.I am one who thinks that free market forces should control guide and outfitter pricing. Who benefits from hunt pricing that is 5 times as high as it should be? Not you and me. Birdman, when you say this is a great way to raise money, dont forget that its your money and its being extorted from you by a monopoly.

Additionaly, the monopoly that is extorting money from you does not even own the wildlife. You do! In this case the "crown" does but the crown only wants a few hundred dollars for the license to kill the ram....
 
I think the other reason SFW has an interest in Canadian Sheep Hunting concessions is so that it can operate outside the jurisdiction of the United States of America and some of its pesky laws: like the ones that bar government officials like DWR agents or officers from receiving gifts like Stone Sheep Hunts...for those of you who are intellectually challenged here is how the racket works: DWR starts a private sector Fundraising arm called SFW and drives the operation by whoring out publicly owned resources in the form of Conservation permits. The private sector money has much less accountability than the tax dollars the DWR normally operates on and serves as a slush fund. When operations are expanded internationally there is even less accountability. Each different legal and jurisdictional entity has different rules or laws. So if what they want to do isnt legal here they simply do it there or this compartment does it rather than that compartment and the various compartments just loan each other money to do what they want. The bottom line is that Utah DWR is cesspool of corruption and wrongdoing. Thats why SFWs scam has not gained traction in other states and is forced to operate in Utah.
 
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