SF 94 - Watch Out - They want you to be quite!
- Thread starter G14
- Start date
4
440sixpack
Guest
Be quite what?
Stay thirsty my friends
Stay thirsty my friends
alaska_bou
Active Member
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- 161
+1
wolfhunter
Active Member
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- 434
As a Wyoming resident I would like to see resident preference points and limited quota for our area in region G-H mule deer. Everyone is putting too much pressure on this area!!! You have got to be willing to give something up to save whats good!!!!!! That is as long as the G&F does their job and manages for healthy herds and not FAT BUDGETS!!!
I am not necessarily opposed to making G and H limited quota units. Personally, I don't think it would help increase the numbers but it might increase the average buck size. I just happen to think the hunting is just fine in G and H. Particularly when we get to go every year. If I thought it would increase the numbers I would be more for it.
But a resident PP system is a strong NO. I would be ok with a Bonus Point system but would prefer it be left alone.
But a resident PP system is a strong NO. I would be ok with a Bonus Point system but would prefer it be left alone.
jm77
Long Time Member
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- 3,508
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-14 AT 07:06PM (MST)[p]One thing I have to say about this G14, is do you believe the people in favor of this are bad people? You say we want to keep it quiet and "sneak" it through. Just how in the heck can you keep this quiet? It is a bill that's filed before session and on the website. We're trying to get this in the back door right under your nose?
One of your biggest complaints last year was the youth will get left out. Not anymore. The language in this bill is great for youth. But now you focus on something else?
Last time I looked we ALL count in this, so if half want something different we ignore it?
And think again if you think this is being only pushed by some guys around Casper. Wrong again.
One of your biggest complaints last year was the youth will get left out. Not anymore. The language in this bill is great for youth. But now you focus on something else?
Last time I looked we ALL count in this, so if half want something different we ignore it?
And think again if you think this is being only pushed by some guys around Casper. Wrong again.
grosventrehunter
Very Active Member
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- 1,935
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-14 AT 07:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-14 AT 07:55?PM (MST)
I don't want PP and will write a letter stating so. I think a state wide opener might help a little too. Just my two cents.
Is this selfish?
I don't want PP and will write a letter stating so. I think a state wide opener might help a little too. Just my two cents.
Is this selfish?
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-14 AT 08:09PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-14 AT 08:07?PM (MST)
your grandkids will be hosed? that's a simplistic viewpoint.
Grandkids get hosed because there are not enough tags and too many hunters.
And how can grandkids get hosed because of a preference point system for antelope in Wyoming? most everyone will cycle through every few years, some will still draw every year.
Actually right now kids get hosed, they are just like everyone else when they get unlucky in the random antelope draw year after year.
How can kids get hosed when they can buy an OTC deer and OTC elk tag every year? Some of you better check draw odds, then understand how preference point systems work, and then remember that they are talking about a 50%-50% split.
Mandatory waiting periods for Wyoming antelope would be unworkable, and that's by far the draw that preference points would have the largest effect on.
your grandkids will be hosed? that's a simplistic viewpoint.
Grandkids get hosed because there are not enough tags and too many hunters.
And how can grandkids get hosed because of a preference point system for antelope in Wyoming? most everyone will cycle through every few years, some will still draw every year.
Actually right now kids get hosed, they are just like everyone else when they get unlucky in the random antelope draw year after year.
How can kids get hosed when they can buy an OTC deer and OTC elk tag every year? Some of you better check draw odds, then understand how preference point systems work, and then remember that they are talking about a 50%-50% split.
Mandatory waiting periods for Wyoming antelope would be unworkable, and that's by far the draw that preference points would have the largest effect on.
B
Blueticker
Guest
I'd be in favor of a preference point system for antelope but not deer and here's why.
All antelope areas in WY are already limited quota but not so with deer. If you live in western WY (Jackson, Star Valley, etc.) you will be screwed. WG&F will make G & H into limited quota areas which will be great if your from eastern WY. Residents from Casper, Cheyenne, Gillette, etc. will put in for the trophy deer areas in the west but if not drawn they can hunt close to home in their general tag areas. Us who live in the western side of the state will only be allowed to hunt deer close to our home when we are lucky enough to draw a tag as there would be no local general deer tag areas to fall back on. If we want to hunt deer every year we would be forced to drive long distances to other parts of the state. We'd be screwed.
The only way a preference point system could possibly work is if all the areas in the entire state became limited draw forcing the population masses of eastern WY to make a choice with with the possibility of not being able to hunt their own local areas.
All antelope areas in WY are already limited quota but not so with deer. If you live in western WY (Jackson, Star Valley, etc.) you will be screwed. WG&F will make G & H into limited quota areas which will be great if your from eastern WY. Residents from Casper, Cheyenne, Gillette, etc. will put in for the trophy deer areas in the west but if not drawn they can hunt close to home in their general tag areas. Us who live in the western side of the state will only be allowed to hunt deer close to our home when we are lucky enough to draw a tag as there would be no local general deer tag areas to fall back on. If we want to hunt deer every year we would be forced to drive long distances to other parts of the state. We'd be screwed.
The only way a preference point system could possibly work is if all the areas in the entire state became limited draw forcing the population masses of eastern WY to make a choice with with the possibility of not being able to hunt their own local areas.
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-14 AT 09:06PM (MST)[p]That's true Blueticker, and when preference point systems are used on species with O.C.T tags, point creep becomes a huge problem. Colorado elk is that way.
A 50%-50% split would help, but the creep would still happen.
A 50%-50% split would help, but the creep would still happen.
I'm opposed to a resident preference point bill because it does nothing to actually address the lousy odds for resident hunters. I know the G&F does isn't always the most efficient lot but I have full faith they could implement a waiting period (3-5 years for hunt areas that have a 3year average of <50%odds). This actually helps odds as it takes applicants out of the pool. Lets start small and work big.
The biggest problem with points is the effect of the first year with everyone getting into the draw. Historically the first years of point systems have brought 25%-45% more applicants having the exact opposite effect that we are trying to have.
Remember we have a very small population base and therefore a relatively small group of resident hunters. We can do things to increase tags (with the same impact of resource) and reduce applicants.
The biggest problem with points is the effect of the first year with everyone getting into the draw. Historically the first years of point systems have brought 25%-45% more applicants having the exact opposite effect that we are trying to have.
Remember we have a very small population base and therefore a relatively small group of resident hunters. We can do things to increase tags (with the same impact of resource) and reduce applicants.
I said your grandkids because it will be that long before the issues manifest themselves. The kids who arn't even able to apply yet are going to be so far behind they may never draw the high demand units. How are those moose points working for anyone who put in after the first decade? They may never draw a decent unit unless point holders ahead of them die. Same with sheep. Can't residents already get antelope tags every year? So why do they want points? Your example, not mine. The issues will really show up on higher demand areas, in a decade. Doubt any Colorado guys thought it would take 20+ points to draw an elk tag.
a 5 year wait for areas that have a 49% rate of getting drawn? that's nuts.
And lots of residents apply for Wyoming antelope every year because they want to hunt, I seriously doubt a point system is going to make a bunch more people apply, that's nuts also.
And lots of residents apply for Wyoming antelope every year because they want to hunt, I seriously doubt a point system is going to make a bunch more people apply, that's nuts also.
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-14 AT 09:42PM (MST)[p]I get your point 2point, and I know all about it, I have 15 Colorado elk points trying to draw an area I previously drew twice with 2 points, its a joke.
I also have 10 resident WY. sheep points, and some one on here figured it up once, I will more than likely be in my mid 80s before I get to hunt sheep.
I also have been 5 years without drawing a resident buck antelope tag, the areas I apply for have between a 30% and 50% success rate, and the sad part is that I could easily go another 5 or more years without getting drawn. I'm no closer to getting a tag now than I was 5 years ago.
I also have 10 resident WY. sheep points, and some one on here figured it up once, I will more than likely be in my mid 80s before I get to hunt sheep.
I also have been 5 years without drawing a resident buck antelope tag, the areas I apply for have between a 30% and 50% success rate, and the sad part is that I could easily go another 5 or more years without getting drawn. I'm no closer to getting a tag now than I was 5 years ago.
jm77
Long Time Member
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- 3,508
No offense to anyone, but who knows what's in this bill?
First, youth are allowed to party with immediate family and use their points. No kid gets left behind no matter when they start. So we can drop that arguement.
If a NR moves to Wyoming with points, they drop to maximum resident points. Yeah I know fellas, Wyoming stickin it to you again...
It is a 50/50 split and the majority of the areas this will work out fine , however the less than 10% success areas will suck. OK but in a random draw in those same areas, some applicants will NEVER draw.
First, youth are allowed to party with immediate family and use their points. No kid gets left behind no matter when they start. So we can drop that arguement.
If a NR moves to Wyoming with points, they drop to maximum resident points. Yeah I know fellas, Wyoming stickin it to you again...
It is a 50/50 split and the majority of the areas this will work out fine , however the less than 10% success areas will suck. OK but in a random draw in those same areas, some applicants will NEVER draw.
Historically speaking that is what happens. Someone has posted the stats from a few short years ago when nonresident point system went into effect. I have a dozen or so nonresident friends that have become collectors of Wyoming preference points. Most of them didn't apply for elk every year until preference points came about. Most of them put in for a Wyoming region tag if they needed a filler for the year.
My wife puts in for Wyoming big game draw every 2nd-3rd year. I promise she will be a collector of points when there shoved down our throats. I'll bet you a steak dinner that we see a >10% increase of applicants the first year we have a point system.
As to the waiting period. If you were on your waiting period for antelope it would not stop you from getting a leftover permit when they come available after the first draw or any general season permit. Maybe you cap it at 3 yr wait for antelope, and 5yr for deer/elk. Maybe you
only include hunt areas that have <33% odds.
One things for certain I can't support anything that doesn't actually help draw odds get better. The only thing that accomplishes this is reducing applicants or increasing tags.
My wife puts in for Wyoming big game draw every 2nd-3rd year. I promise she will be a collector of points when there shoved down our throats. I'll bet you a steak dinner that we see a >10% increase of applicants the first year we have a point system.
As to the waiting period. If you were on your waiting period for antelope it would not stop you from getting a leftover permit when they come available after the first draw or any general season permit. Maybe you cap it at 3 yr wait for antelope, and 5yr for deer/elk. Maybe you
only include hunt areas that have <33% odds.
One things for certain I can't support anything that doesn't actually help draw odds get better. The only thing that accomplishes this is reducing applicants or increasing tags.
JM77
First, youth are allowed to party with immediate family and use their points. No kid gets left behind no matter when they start. So we can drop that argument.
Split their points or use their points? What if you have twins or two youth hunters? Can both jump in with dad or mom? What does that do for the available tag pool especially for the coveted tags? This would be much more palatable if the bill just let youth buy preference points before they are old enough to hunt (they could only be used once they are of age). I would also be ok with allowing a adult to transfer his points to his tag to son or daughter but to just make 10 or 12 point magically appear for a youth doesn't help odds?
First, youth are allowed to party with immediate family and use their points. No kid gets left behind no matter when they start. So we can drop that argument.
Split their points or use their points? What if you have twins or two youth hunters? Can both jump in with dad or mom? What does that do for the available tag pool especially for the coveted tags? This would be much more palatable if the bill just let youth buy preference points before they are old enough to hunt (they could only be used once they are of age). I would also be ok with allowing a adult to transfer his points to his tag to son or daughter but to just make 10 or 12 point magically appear for a youth doesn't help odds?
It is a 50/50 split and the majority of the areas this will work out fine , however the less than 10% success areas will suck. OK but in a random draw in those same areas, some applicants will NEVER draw.
Isn't it true that when we start collecting points many people (especially those who are currently over 55) will die or become unable to hunt before they draw? The unlucky will still be unlucky. A 30,31, or 100 elk tag will still take 25yrs to cycle max point holders through the draw. Our point system will work ok for goats, and deer/elk units that have above 40% draw odds. Best case scenario it will have zero effects on the most coveted tags. Mostly likely a point system will make it harder to draw the most coveted tags.
I hate the random draw (i'm now 6 years into not even a antelope tag) but we should take a deep breath and come to a solution that actually improves odds. We have one chance to get it right.
Isn't it true that when we start collecting points many people (especially those who are currently over 55) will die or become unable to hunt before they draw? The unlucky will still be unlucky. A 30,31, or 100 elk tag will still take 25yrs to cycle max point holders through the draw. Our point system will work ok for goats, and deer/elk units that have above 40% draw odds. Best case scenario it will have zero effects on the most coveted tags. Mostly likely a point system will make it harder to draw the most coveted tags.
I hate the random draw (i'm now 6 years into not even a antelope tag) but we should take a deep breath and come to a solution that actually improves odds. We have one chance to get it right.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,508
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-14 AT 11:46PM (MST)[p]>JM77
>
>First, youth are allowed to party
>with immediate family and use
>their points. No kid gets
>left behind no matter when
>they start. So we can
>drop that argument.
>
>Split their points or use their
>points? What if you
>have twins or two youth
>hunters? Can both jump
>in with dad or mom?
> What does that do
>for the available tag pool
>especially for the coveted tags?
> This would be much
>more palatable if the bill
>just let youth buy preference
>points before they are old
>enough to hunt (they could
>only be used once they
>are of age). I
>would also be ok with
>allowing a adult to transfer
>his points to his tag
>to son or daughter but
>to just make 10 or
>12 point magically appear for
>a youth doesn't help odds?
>
Up to two youth per party. If dad has 4 pts and two sons have 0 pts and 1 pt, their party has 4 pts. All points lost if drawn.
Myself, I want youth to have the edge. That said I know that the only reason first time youth don't hunt elk, deer and antelope in Wyoming,is because their family doesn't take them. Not because of drawing tags. Our youth have great opportunities here. I have three daughters 29, 27, & 23. They all hunt.
>
>First, youth are allowed to party
>with immediate family and use
>their points. No kid gets
>left behind no matter when
>they start. So we can
>drop that argument.
>
>Split their points or use their
>points? What if you
>have twins or two youth
>hunters? Can both jump
>in with dad or mom?
> What does that do
>for the available tag pool
>especially for the coveted tags?
> This would be much
>more palatable if the bill
>just let youth buy preference
>points before they are old
>enough to hunt (they could
>only be used once they
>are of age). I
>would also be ok with
>allowing a adult to transfer
>his points to his tag
>to son or daughter but
>to just make 10 or
>12 point magically appear for
>a youth doesn't help odds?
>
Up to two youth per party. If dad has 4 pts and two sons have 0 pts and 1 pt, their party has 4 pts. All points lost if drawn.
Myself, I want youth to have the edge. That said I know that the only reason first time youth don't hunt elk, deer and antelope in Wyoming,is because their family doesn't take them. Not because of drawing tags. Our youth have great opportunities here. I have three daughters 29, 27, & 23. They all hunt.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,508
>It is a 50/50 split and
>the majority of the areas
>this will work out fine
>, however the less than
>10% success areas will suck.
>OK but in a random
>draw in those same areas,
>some applicants will NEVER draw.
>
>
>
>
>Isn't it true that when we
>start collecting points many people
>(especially those who are currently
>over 55) will die or
>become unable to hunt before
>they draw? The unlucky
>will still be unlucky.
>A 30,31, or 100 elk
>tag will still take 25yrs
>to cycle max point holders
>through the draw.
>Our point system will work
>ok for goats, and deer/elk
>units that have above 40%
>draw odds. Best case
>scenario it will have zero
>effects on the most coveted
>tags. Mostly likely a
>point system will make it
>harder to draw the most
>coveted tags.
>I hate the random draw (i'm
>now 6 years into not
>even a antelope tag) but
>we should take a deep
>breath and come to a
>solution that actually improves odds.
>We have one chance to
>get it right.
First nothing is forever.
PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY
Now, you and I disagree on the whole idea of why to have PPs. You CANNOT improve overall drawing odds by playing with draw systems. What you strive for is to get the maximum number of different hunters into the field. Many call us selfish for wanting PPs and it's the complete opposite reason. We have the most UNselfish reason of all: opportunity for the most hunters possible.
It ticks me off when someone calls those that want PPs selfish.
Because in reality those saying that are the selfish ones.
No offense, but wanting to improve your own drawing odds is selfish, but I can understand it.
>the majority of the areas
>this will work out fine
>, however the less than
>10% success areas will suck.
>OK but in a random
>draw in those same areas,
>some applicants will NEVER draw.
>
>
>
>
>Isn't it true that when we
>start collecting points many people
>(especially those who are currently
>over 55) will die or
>become unable to hunt before
>they draw? The unlucky
>will still be unlucky.
>A 30,31, or 100 elk
>tag will still take 25yrs
>to cycle max point holders
>through the draw.
>Our point system will work
>ok for goats, and deer/elk
>units that have above 40%
>draw odds. Best case
>scenario it will have zero
>effects on the most coveted
>tags. Mostly likely a
>point system will make it
>harder to draw the most
>coveted tags.
>I hate the random draw (i'm
>now 6 years into not
>even a antelope tag) but
>we should take a deep
>breath and come to a
>solution that actually improves odds.
>We have one chance to
>get it right.
First nothing is forever.
PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY
Now, you and I disagree on the whole idea of why to have PPs. You CANNOT improve overall drawing odds by playing with draw systems. What you strive for is to get the maximum number of different hunters into the field. Many call us selfish for wanting PPs and it's the complete opposite reason. We have the most UNselfish reason of all: opportunity for the most hunters possible.
It ticks me off when someone calls those that want PPs selfish.
Because in reality those saying that are the selfish ones.
No offense, but wanting to improve your own drawing odds is selfish, but I can understand it.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,508
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-14 AT 11:53PM (MST)[p]
>One things for certain I can't
>support anything that doesn't actually
>help draw odds get better.
> The only thing that
>accomplishes this is reducing applicants
>or increasing tags.
You are right about increased applicants after a PP system is put in place. Most will just buy the point and after a few years, those people will be gone. Because if they stayed in the game , we just created a bunch of new hunters!! You would be surprised at how many sheep and moose applicants dropped out over the years.
But really, I'll say again, my reason to support PPs, is not to increase drawing for myself. I have too many friends that get hosed random, and if I know some, you do too.
What's wrong with wanting to spread out the tags more evenly?
Waiting periods will also spread out tags(they don't work in hard to draw areas) but with 50/50 no one sits out and everyone has a chance.
>One things for certain I can't
>support anything that doesn't actually
>help draw odds get better.
> The only thing that
>accomplishes this is reducing applicants
>or increasing tags.
You are right about increased applicants after a PP system is put in place. Most will just buy the point and after a few years, those people will be gone. Because if they stayed in the game , we just created a bunch of new hunters!! You would be surprised at how many sheep and moose applicants dropped out over the years.
But really, I'll say again, my reason to support PPs, is not to increase drawing for myself. I have too many friends that get hosed random, and if I know some, you do too.
What's wrong with wanting to spread out the tags more evenly?
Waiting periods will also spread out tags(they don't work in hard to draw areas) but with 50/50 no one sits out and everyone has a chance.
I never called someone who wants preference points selfish. I think we want the same thing which is fairness. The only way to accomplish fairness is to improve draw odds.
Your right wanting to improve "my own odds is selfish" but wanting to improve everyone's odds equally is far from selfish.
Preference points is fixing a symptom to the problem
Improving odds is fixing the root cause of the problem. After all we wouldn't be having this conversation is odds for deer, elk, and antelope averaged 40%.
And your dead wrong once a point system is enacted it is here to stay forever. Sure it can be tweaked and it will after we have the same problem with a bunch of guys sitting on max points getting bumped by kids who magically sprout max points? What about the kid whose parents don't hunt? Bad idea! I'm all about kids having maximum opportunity. Letting their parents buy points upon birth of child or having the ability to donate a permit to my child (which I would gladly do) At bare minimum dad shouldn't get the tag.
Your right wanting to improve "my own odds is selfish" but wanting to improve everyone's odds equally is far from selfish.
Preference points is fixing a symptom to the problem
Improving odds is fixing the root cause of the problem. After all we wouldn't be having this conversation is odds for deer, elk, and antelope averaged 40%.
And your dead wrong once a point system is enacted it is here to stay forever. Sure it can be tweaked and it will after we have the same problem with a bunch of guys sitting on max points getting bumped by kids who magically sprout max points? What about the kid whose parents don't hunt? Bad idea! I'm all about kids having maximum opportunity. Letting their parents buy points upon birth of child or having the ability to donate a permit to my child (which I would gladly do) At bare minimum dad shouldn't get the tag.
I don't have a dog in the fight but here is some insight from Oregon that has a PP system. Most everyone plays the game. So being from the east side we get outnumbered by the west side. Come hunting season there is a 10 to one difference in who has the tags. Most of the guys I know play it to the fullest. If your favorite place to hunt takes 4 points to draw then you have 8 others (Kids to Grandma)out there putting in for points until they have enough to put in with you as a party and you draw. I know guys that draw every year by working the system. It cost some money to do it but they feel it is worth it. And believe me there is a lot of it going on here in Oregon. F & G wins with more dollars and the guy with the bucks to by all the licenses gets to hunt every year.
Good luck, DZ
Good luck, DZ
You are right about increased applicants after a PP system is put in place. Most will just buy the point and after a few years, those people will be gone. Because if they stayed in the game , we just created a bunch of new hunters!! You would be surprised at how many sheep and moose applicants dropped out over the years.
Said the gigantic amount of nonresidents sitting on max deer and elk points! The amount of people that drop out after the first couple of years is statistically insignificant. After 20 years its a totally different story. People die, move away, quit hunting, and forget to put in. Nothing like waiting for people to die to draw a tag.
Said the gigantic amount of nonresidents sitting on max deer and elk points! The amount of people that drop out after the first couple of years is statistically insignificant. After 20 years its a totally different story. People die, move away, quit hunting, and forget to put in. Nothing like waiting for people to die to draw a tag.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,508
>You are right about increased applicants
>after a PP system is
>put in place. Most will
>just buy the point and
>after a few years, those
>people will be gone. Because
>if they stayed in the
>game , we just created
>a bunch of new hunters!!
>You would be surprised at
>how many sheep and moose
>applicants dropped out over the
>years.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Said the gigantic amount of nonresidents
>sitting on max deer and
>elk points! The
>amount of people that drop
>out after the first couple
>of years is statistically insignificant.
> After 20 years its
>a totally different story.
>People die, move away, quit
>hunting, and forget to put
>in. Nothing like waiting
>for people to die to
>draw a tag.
Nope you missed this one...But what you said about increasing everyone's odds was right. Sadly that will never happen and we both know it.
>after a PP system is
>put in place. Most will
>just buy the point and
>after a few years, those
>people will be gone. Because
>if they stayed in the
>game , we just created
>a bunch of new hunters!!
>You would be surprised at
>how many sheep and moose
>applicants dropped out over the
>years.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Said the gigantic amount of nonresidents
>sitting on max deer and
>elk points! The
>amount of people that drop
>out after the first couple
>of years is statistically insignificant.
> After 20 years its
>a totally different story.
>People die, move away, quit
>hunting, and forget to put
>in. Nothing like waiting
>for people to die to
>draw a tag.
Nope you missed this one...But what you said about increasing everyone's odds was right. Sadly that will never happen and we both know it.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,508
>I don't have a dog in
>the fight but here is
>some insight from Oregon that
>has a PP system.
>Most everyone plays the game.
> So being from the
>east side we get outnumbered
>by the west side.
>Come hunting season there is
>a 10 to one difference
>in who has the tags.
> Most of the guys
>I know play it to
>the fullest. If your
>favorite place to hunt takes
>4 points to draw then
>you have 8 others (Kids
>to Grandma)out there putting in
>for points until they have
>enough to put in with
>you as a party and
>you draw. I know
>guys that draw every year
>by working the system.
>It cost some money to
>do it but they feel
>it is worth it.
>And believe me there is
>a lot of it going
>on here in Oregon.
>F & G wins with
>more dollars and the guy
>with the bucks to by
>all the licenses gets to
>hunt every year.
>
>Good luck, DZ
Real easy fix to this problem. Party goes by member with the lowest points.
>the fight but here is
>some insight from Oregon that
>has a PP system.
>Most everyone plays the game.
> So being from the
>east side we get outnumbered
>by the west side.
>Come hunting season there is
>a 10 to one difference
>in who has the tags.
> Most of the guys
>I know play it to
>the fullest. If your
>favorite place to hunt takes
>4 points to draw then
>you have 8 others (Kids
>to Grandma)out there putting in
>for points until they have
>enough to put in with
>you as a party and
>you draw. I know
>guys that draw every year
>by working the system.
>It cost some money to
>do it but they feel
>it is worth it.
>And believe me there is
>a lot of it going
>on here in Oregon.
>F & G wins with
>more dollars and the guy
>with the bucks to by
>all the licenses gets to
>hunt every year.
>
>Good luck, DZ
Real easy fix to this problem. Party goes by member with the lowest points.
B
Blueticker
Guest
The real problem is not too many hunters applying for tags but too few deer. The game & fish is trying to rely on half the game of 30 years ago supporting today's larger dept. Everyone here is talking about ways to raise money to support the WG&F so they can do their jobs. If anyone here believes that wildlife managers first concerns are for the game you are kidding yourself. In their first year in college future wildlife biologists are taught that the most important issue in game management is revenue. Without the revenue they don't get they're new trucks and bloated pensions.
If the WG&F (and gov't in general) were run like a private business they wouldn't be in the predicament they're in right now. A resident preference point system will raise another $300,000 for the dept but will not put one more deer on the ground for those flipping the bill.
I think sportsman should demand better game management which in turn will lead to better draw odds. Wildlife biologists should look at private landowners to learn how to manage game better as private land hunting is generally better than that on public land.
If the WG&F (and gov't in general) were run like a private business they wouldn't be in the predicament they're in right now. A resident preference point system will raise another $300,000 for the dept but will not put one more deer on the ground for those flipping the bill.
I think sportsman should demand better game management which in turn will lead to better draw odds. Wildlife biologists should look at private landowners to learn how to manage game better as private land hunting is generally better than that on public land.
ColoradoOak
Very Active Member
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- 1,920
I cannot believe, with the long history of preference point systems in so many states to evaluate, that WY residents are trying to voluntarily subject themselves to a point system. You guys are nuts.
B
Blueticker
Guest
I think the adage "Be careful what you wish for" applies here.
wolfhunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 434
The mandatory waiting period could be something to seriously look at. IF you kill a deer in deer regions G-H you must sit out 2-3 years. Go elk hunting or something, help a kid...
I think a good place to start is mandatory harvest reporting. The G&F really has no idea just how many deer are killed.
Another idea; is general hunts in Region G-H must be conducted with primitive weapons. Our herds are taking a beating from the long range crowd!!!!!! Lets not limit "opportunity" make the hunter really hunt!!!!!!
I think a good place to start is mandatory harvest reporting. The G&F really has no idea just how many deer are killed.
Another idea; is general hunts in Region G-H must be conducted with primitive weapons. Our herds are taking a beating from the long range crowd!!!!!! Lets not limit "opportunity" make the hunter really hunt!!!!!!
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,851
Again, you are fools to want PP system!!! Especially when you have so many left over tags and the the best season structure of any western state.
Go for a waiting period based on odds of drawing, but points will only hurt in the long run.
As was quoted in the Colorado forum... :Who would have ever predicted that people would be waiting over 20 years to even have a chance to draw a tag."\
Go for a waiting period and treat everyone equal. A random draw is the best system, everyone has equal chances. Some get lucky some do not. But at least every year you have a chance. Go to PP and after the first 3-6 years, you ill be lucky to hunt what was once a general tag every 2-3 years.
Force a wait period when a limited tag is drawn and allow a person to pick up leftovers as needed. But do not consider any of the crap 50/50 systems or the pure points systems etc. They will all result in the same things. No chance to draw until your so old you can't hunt.
Go for a waiting period based on odds of drawing, but points will only hurt in the long run.
As was quoted in the Colorado forum... :Who would have ever predicted that people would be waiting over 20 years to even have a chance to draw a tag."\
Go for a waiting period and treat everyone equal. A random draw is the best system, everyone has equal chances. Some get lucky some do not. But at least every year you have a chance. Go to PP and after the first 3-6 years, you ill be lucky to hunt what was once a general tag every 2-3 years.
Force a wait period when a limited tag is drawn and allow a person to pick up leftovers as needed. But do not consider any of the crap 50/50 systems or the pure points systems etc. They will all result in the same things. No chance to draw until your so old you can't hunt.
>They will all result in
>the same things. No chance
>to draw until your so
>old you can't hunt.
I've only drawn two first choice LQ deer tags in my life. Yet I've hunted deer every season for the past 30 years. Doesn't matter if I have to wait 1 year or 20, I'm still hunting every year. What's yer point...
>the same things. No chance
>to draw until your so
>old you can't hunt.
I've only drawn two first choice LQ deer tags in my life. Yet I've hunted deer every season for the past 30 years. Doesn't matter if I have to wait 1 year or 20, I'm still hunting every year. What's yer point...
wolfhunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 434
I think the point is "We" the residents and nonresidents collectively are putting to much pressure in popular areas. We all need to adjust the status quo or suffer the consequences. I think it is important to not just think of ourselves first. What is good for the future of our gift...HUNTING!
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,851
When you go to the PP system, you will loose opportunity to draw a tag. When CO first came out, we could draw our unit on First choice every time and even had a chance at it as a 2nd choice. Now those same units are no chance as a second choice and require you to apply for 2 to 3 years to have a chance.
Long term you will see your chance to hunt 2nd choice hunts diminished. Every state has experienced this, in Colorado a person has to look hard to find a deer tag with good public access that they can draw as a 2nd choice.
Again people will get points just to get points, the units will become inflated and what you once hunted every year will turn into an every 2-3 year ordeal.
Just look at all the states with PP, at first they were great but before long every single state has struggled and is struggling with point creep and how to manage the fact that people have tons of points and can do nothing with them except blow them on lower quality hunts. Hell 10 years to draw a buck tag and in that time I have only had 3 Colorado deer tags, because what used to be a 2nd choice/back up hunt is now a first choice hunt since people can't draw a unit without a couple points.
Long term you will see your chance to hunt 2nd choice hunts diminished. Every state has experienced this, in Colorado a person has to look hard to find a deer tag with good public access that they can draw as a 2nd choice.
Again people will get points just to get points, the units will become inflated and what you once hunted every year will turn into an every 2-3 year ordeal.
Just look at all the states with PP, at first they were great but before long every single state has struggled and is struggling with point creep and how to manage the fact that people have tons of points and can do nothing with them except blow them on lower quality hunts. Hell 10 years to draw a buck tag and in that time I have only had 3 Colorado deer tags, because what used to be a 2nd choice/back up hunt is now a first choice hunt since people can't draw a unit without a couple points.
B
Blueticker
Guest
Make G&H 4 point areas. In fact make it 4 point statewide and limited quota areas won't be a big deal anymore. There will be quality deer hunting on public land all over the state and it will only take a few years to get there.
wolfhunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 434
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-14 AT 03:56PM (MST)[p]IMO...4 point restriction will not fix the challenges in regions G&H. Here is why, most 2 year old bucks in that unit are already 4 points or better. We already have a bunch of 3 point dominate bucks on the breeding ground that are not getting shot already. I would be more inclined to limit the number of hunters who can kill 4 points and have open season on 3 point bucks. Looking long term...
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-14 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]Can someone point out where someone had something good to say about PP 7-10 years after a state enacted them?
Any thoughts on point creep getting worse with a 50/50 split? I'm not seeing how this will improve the situation other than giving the guy who doesn't get in the 1st year a chance at half the tags.
To the NR who have actual experience with how PP affected your state please write the WY House of Representatives and tell them about your experience with PP and why they should be avoided at all costs. There has been some very good point of views from you guys on this thread alone. You don't have to write the Senate as they will pass the bill. Just google WY Legislature and there will be contact info on house reps. Please write every one of them. Thx
Any thoughts on point creep getting worse with a 50/50 split? I'm not seeing how this will improve the situation other than giving the guy who doesn't get in the 1st year a chance at half the tags.
To the NR who have actual experience with how PP affected your state please write the WY House of Representatives and tell them about your experience with PP and why they should be avoided at all costs. There has been some very good point of views from you guys on this thread alone. You don't have to write the Senate as they will pass the bill. Just google WY Legislature and there will be contact info on house reps. Please write every one of them. Thx
I did last night. Sent out 20 plus emails mostly to family members. Most of them don't hunt, but they do vote and provided the link and information requesting a yes vote. This weekend it'll be a pile of facebook friends and a bunch more friends and family members.
I'm not convinced this bill will pass being in a budget year. But I think it'll be back every year for who knows how long until it does pass. Look how long it took the lottery bill to make it. It'll happen at some point...
I'm not convinced this bill will pass being in a budget year. But I think it'll be back every year for who knows how long until it does pass. Look how long it took the lottery bill to make it. It'll happen at some point...
>I don't have a dog in
>the fight but here is
>some insight from Oregon that
>has a PP system.
>Most everyone plays the game.
> So being from the
>east side we get outnumbered
>by the west side.
>Come hunting season there is
>a 10 to one difference
>in who has the tags.
> Most of the guys
>I know play it to
>the fullest. If your
>favorite place to hunt takes
>4 points to draw then
>you have 8 others (Kids
>to Grandma)out there putting in
>for points until they have
>enough to put in with
>you as a party and
>you draw. I know
>guys that draw every year
>by working the system.
>It cost some money to
>do it but they feel
>it is worth it.
>And believe me there is
>a lot of it going
>on here in Oregon.
>F & G wins with
>more dollars and the guy
>with the bucks to by
>all the licenses gets to
>hunt every year.
>
>Good luck, DZ
Real easy fix to this problem. Party goes by member with the lowest points.
I think F&G is in it to raise funds. If they can get the majority of hunters to put in Grandma and all of the other non-hunting members of their family, to increase their own odds. Don't kid yourself about lowest or combining points. I don't know of any other state that goes by the lowest point holder.
Just saying, DZ
>the fight but here is
>some insight from Oregon that
>has a PP system.
>Most everyone plays the game.
> So being from the
>east side we get outnumbered
>by the west side.
>Come hunting season there is
>a 10 to one difference
>in who has the tags.
> Most of the guys
>I know play it to
>the fullest. If your
>favorite place to hunt takes
>4 points to draw then
>you have 8 others (Kids
>to Grandma)out there putting in
>for points until they have
>enough to put in with
>you as a party and
>you draw. I know
>guys that draw every year
>by working the system.
>It cost some money to
>do it but they feel
>it is worth it.
>And believe me there is
>a lot of it going
>on here in Oregon.
>F & G wins with
>more dollars and the guy
>with the bucks to by
>all the licenses gets to
>hunt every year.
>
>Good luck, DZ
Real easy fix to this problem. Party goes by member with the lowest points.
I think F&G is in it to raise funds. If they can get the majority of hunters to put in Grandma and all of the other non-hunting members of their family, to increase their own odds. Don't kid yourself about lowest or combining points. I don't know of any other state that goes by the lowest point holder.
Just saying, DZ
This point system doomsday talk is funny, Actually many times point systems work fine, Utahs point system works great for their extremely limited bull elk tags, Nevada works great for all their limited big game tags, Arizona's system works pretty good also.
Want to know which states I seldom if ever apply in? New Mexico and Idaho, the odds are just too tough, you can easily go for the rest of your life without drawing anything.
My guess is that Wyoming is going to manage big game exactly like Idaho does, the only difference is that they are going to screw the nonresidents like New Mexico did.
Want to know which states I seldom if ever apply in? New Mexico and Idaho, the odds are just too tough, you can easily go for the rest of your life without drawing anything.
My guess is that Wyoming is going to manage big game exactly like Idaho does, the only difference is that they are going to screw the nonresidents like New Mexico did.
wolfhunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 434
Piper,
We do not agree on wolves but I have to say I pretty much agree with you on Mule Deer and Management. I Hope to Hell the Wyoming Game and Fish is smart enough to not follow in Idaho's foot steps... Some areas in Idaho the Mule Deer should be put on the endangered Species List!!!!
We do not agree on wolves but I have to say I pretty much agree with you on Mule Deer and Management. I Hope to Hell the Wyoming Game and Fish is smart enough to not follow in Idaho's foot steps... Some areas in Idaho the Mule Deer should be put on the endangered Species List!!!!
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-14 AT 08:33PM (MST)[p]Sure, I grew up in Elko Nevada, I used to buy a deer tag at the drug store the day before going hunting, it was good for a buck or doe, hunted Elk, Desert bighorn, Mountain goat, Antelope and deer many times in Nevada
I was born in SLC, and I have lived in St George, Provo, and SLC at different times in my life, I have drawn 2 limited entry Bull tags in Utah, plus Antelope and limited deer.
Never lived in Arizona but I have hunted there 5 or 6 times and have 18 Elk points going into the draw this year.
anymore questions?
I was born in SLC, and I have lived in St George, Provo, and SLC at different times in my life, I have drawn 2 limited entry Bull tags in Utah, plus Antelope and limited deer.
Never lived in Arizona but I have hunted there 5 or 6 times and have 18 Elk points going into the draw this year.
anymore questions?
Random draws suck. If I lived in Utah, Nevada, Colorado or any other state with million plus population base I would support a bonus point/preference point system.
Wyoming is very unique because we have such a small population of resident hunters. We have the ability to actually fix the problem where other states do not due to larger populations.
Instead we will settle with the worst point system out of any western state and have youth hunters magically growing max points for the best units in Wyoming and We'll maintain the same crappy odds we've had for decades. But at least you'll now draw a elk tag once in your life, Maybe? Doesn't seem like a good plan but at least I'll get a antelope tag every ten yrs
Wyoming is very unique because we have such a small population of resident hunters. We have the ability to actually fix the problem where other states do not due to larger populations.
Instead we will settle with the worst point system out of any western state and have youth hunters magically growing max points for the best units in Wyoming and We'll maintain the same crappy odds we've had for decades. But at least you'll now draw a elk tag once in your life, Maybe? Doesn't seem like a good plan but at least I'll get a antelope tag every ten yrs
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-14 AT 10:38PM (MST)[p]Piper,
Sure, I have some more questions. Did you draw the Utah tags as a resident,what units, and what years? Was PP's in effect when you drew both tags? If you have 18 points in AZ you have never drawn since they started PP's, correct? I won't ask about Nevada as it appears you never have drawn a tag since they started BONUS points.
Sure, I have some more questions. Did you draw the Utah tags as a resident,what units, and what years? Was PP's in effect when you drew both tags? If you have 18 points in AZ you have never drawn since they started PP's, correct? I won't ask about Nevada as it appears you never have drawn a tag since they started BONUS points.
Bwht4x4
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,477
Why and how could anyone support a PP system. I have 12 pts for deer and elk in CO and at 42 years old I will never reach the max the pool to hunt the premium units. I'm in total non-mans land!
The best system is NV's. Someone said UT had a great system...I have 17 NR deer points to prove otherwise.
If I had my way every state would run the NV system of bonus points or have no system at all.
The best system is NV's. Someone said UT had a great system...I have 17 NR deer points to prove otherwise.
If I had my way every state would run the NV system of bonus points or have no system at all.
If Wyoming thought outside the box and instituted waiting periods on first choice applications they'd be far ahead of the game. Have a tiered waiting period for areas based on a 3 year average of draw odds: Odds of 1 in 2-4 incur a 2 year waiting period, 1 in 5-9 incur a 5 year waiting period, 1 in 10-19 incur a 10 year waiting period and 1 in 20+ incur a 20 waiting period. Draw an elk tag that has odds of 1 in 10-19 you sit out 10 years for 1st choice areas. Draw an antelope tag that has odds of 1 in 2-4, you can't apply for 2 years for a 1st choice. Let the hunters who incur a waiting period get tags as a 2nd choice, after all 1st choices have had their shot. That seems very "fair".
Utah's broken system is carried by new hunters, young or old, who will never be afforded the same chance to draw high demand areas. Utah's system was started 21 years ago and today there are people with 21 points. Almost 1/2 of Utah's Sept rifle elk hunts have odds worse than 1 in 30+. 30 year wait to draw. 30 years. If a point system can't work through applicants in less than 20 years it is broken.
Choose wisely Wyoming. Once you get it in place the users become entitled and expectations grow.......
Utah's broken system is carried by new hunters, young or old, who will never be afforded the same chance to draw high demand areas. Utah's system was started 21 years ago and today there are people with 21 points. Almost 1/2 of Utah's Sept rifle elk hunts have odds worse than 1 in 30+. 30 year wait to draw. 30 years. If a point system can't work through applicants in less than 20 years it is broken.
Choose wisely Wyoming. Once you get it in place the users become entitled and expectations grow.......
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-14 AT 09:11AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-14 AT 08:53?AM (MST)
G14- your way off the mark again.
I drew all my Utah tags as a nonresident with the current Utah hybrid point system, Icelander wash antelope in 93, Pahvant bull elk in 1994, had 5 year wait for elk so I applied for deer and 5 years later drew the book cliffs , started applying for elk and two years ago drew a Book cliffs bull tag with 11 points, had a few west desert cow elk tags in between times, and a general muzzy deer tag.
In Nevada I have drawn lots of tags with the bonus point system, some before they started squaring points, some after, most were resident tags, the mountain goat tag and a few deer tags were nonresident.
I didn't buy a license for a few years in AZ so I don't have max points for elk, I have drawn Coues deer 4 times in the last 20 years or so, all on the Arizona's hybrid bonus point system.
I agree that Wyoming's draconian point system sucks, the only thing worse is Colorados Bull elk preference point system and the Random Las Vegas style draw systems, like Idaho and Wyomings other system.
Even the old standard bonus point systems like Arizona and Nevada had for years are pretty fair.
A preference point system capped at a max of three points would be good, In my opinion there are lots of options that distribute tags in a more equitable way than random draws do.
In just takes a little foresight, and a willingness to balance all the different interests.
Extremism is almost always a bad way to go about things, yet that's what we seem to do here in Wyoming
G14- your way off the mark again.
I drew all my Utah tags as a nonresident with the current Utah hybrid point system, Icelander wash antelope in 93, Pahvant bull elk in 1994, had 5 year wait for elk so I applied for deer and 5 years later drew the book cliffs , started applying for elk and two years ago drew a Book cliffs bull tag with 11 points, had a few west desert cow elk tags in between times, and a general muzzy deer tag.
In Nevada I have drawn lots of tags with the bonus point system, some before they started squaring points, some after, most were resident tags, the mountain goat tag and a few deer tags were nonresident.
I didn't buy a license for a few years in AZ so I don't have max points for elk, I have drawn Coues deer 4 times in the last 20 years or so, all on the Arizona's hybrid bonus point system.
I agree that Wyoming's draconian point system sucks, the only thing worse is Colorados Bull elk preference point system and the Random Las Vegas style draw systems, like Idaho and Wyomings other system.
Even the old standard bonus point systems like Arizona and Nevada had for years are pretty fair.
A preference point system capped at a max of three points would be good, In my opinion there are lots of options that distribute tags in a more equitable way than random draws do.
In just takes a little foresight, and a willingness to balance all the different interests.
Extremism is almost always a bad way to go about things, yet that's what we seem to do here in Wyoming
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-14 AT 10:27AM (MST)[p]I forgot about this G14- I just looked at my antelope mount on the wall, I believe It was the last buck antelope permit I have had and I got it 5 or 6 years ago in Nevada with a nonresident tag.
Kind of funny, I guess.
Kind of funny, I guess.
My letter to my representatives. Sent out today plus emailed all the hunters from Wyoming in my email addresses. I didn't resort to polluting the waters with asking non hunters to comment on this as some others resorted to. My motto is if you don't have a dog in the fight stay out of the ring.
I'm writing in concern of SF94. I'm adamantly opposed to SF94 and strongly urge you to not support this legislation.
I'm opposed for the following reasons:
Preference points do nothing to improve draw odds. In order to improve odds you have to add available tags or take applicants out of the pool. There are lots of great ideas to accomplish both of these but the truth is preference points actually add applicants and therefore make draw odds worse. This is because people understand the need to get in to a point system on the ground level. This causes a surge in applications the first year further lowering already dismal success rates.
The biggest reason I'm opposed to SF94 is the allocation of permits to youth hunters if their dad or mom happens to draw a coveted permit. I understand this was done to soften the effect that preference points have on youth hunters (which normally has extremely negative effects) but it is unfair to people who have been playing the preference game when there trying to draw units that may have a handful of tags only to have a couple guys draw the permits with kids and take all the remaining available permits from the pool. At a bare minimum SF94 should be amended to allow parents to buy youth preference points before their old enough to hunt (at birth) so they would have a number of points when they are old enough to hunt.
There is a need to address draw odds in Wyoming. An overhaul of Wyoming?s draw system for residents is long overdue but we should work on a solution that actually improves odds and makes the draw equitable for all Wyoming residents. Because of the state?s low population base we can accomplish this without forcing a bad preference point bill down the throats of citizens. After all the last time citizens were polled the results showed residents hunters were clearly not in favor of a preference point system.
I'm writing in concern of SF94. I'm adamantly opposed to SF94 and strongly urge you to not support this legislation.
I'm opposed for the following reasons:
Preference points do nothing to improve draw odds. In order to improve odds you have to add available tags or take applicants out of the pool. There are lots of great ideas to accomplish both of these but the truth is preference points actually add applicants and therefore make draw odds worse. This is because people understand the need to get in to a point system on the ground level. This causes a surge in applications the first year further lowering already dismal success rates.
The biggest reason I'm opposed to SF94 is the allocation of permits to youth hunters if their dad or mom happens to draw a coveted permit. I understand this was done to soften the effect that preference points have on youth hunters (which normally has extremely negative effects) but it is unfair to people who have been playing the preference game when there trying to draw units that may have a handful of tags only to have a couple guys draw the permits with kids and take all the remaining available permits from the pool. At a bare minimum SF94 should be amended to allow parents to buy youth preference points before their old enough to hunt (at birth) so they would have a number of points when they are old enough to hunt.
There is a need to address draw odds in Wyoming. An overhaul of Wyoming?s draw system for residents is long overdue but we should work on a solution that actually improves odds and makes the draw equitable for all Wyoming residents. Because of the state?s low population base we can accomplish this without forcing a bad preference point bill down the throats of citizens. After all the last time citizens were polled the results showed residents hunters were clearly not in favor of a preference point system.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,508
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-14 AT 01:59PM (MST)[p]feduptwo
Just so you know, the last survey showed 54% residents in favor. Although, those against had a higher % strongly against. That was 2008. That information was testified to Senators by Director Talbot this past week.
Also to increase drawing odds, you must somehow increases tags or limit hunters from applying for licenses.
Allowing a broader group of hunters the same opportunity is accomplished by the 50/50 split. And by the way is totally unselfish, as is giving kids an opportunity to draw with family.
I realize there is no turning you on this issue, but your last line is false.
Just so you know, the last survey showed 54% residents in favor. Although, those against had a higher % strongly against. That was 2008. That information was testified to Senators by Director Talbot this past week.
Also to increase drawing odds, you must somehow increases tags or limit hunters from applying for licenses.
Allowing a broader group of hunters the same opportunity is accomplished by the 50/50 split. And by the way is totally unselfish, as is giving kids an opportunity to draw with family.
I realize there is no turning you on this issue, but your last line is false.
nontypical
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,279
Jeff- I gotta say I agree with Eric about the youth magically receiving the same number of points their dad has when he applies. I have a real problem with this, and it keeps me from supporting this bill. After all, they can still hunt general, just like my kids did when they became old enough to hunt. They can draw from the random 50% pool being proposed, just like everyone else. Anyone who thinks kids are disadvantaged at hunting opportunity in this state has their blinders on.
No one ever mentions the old guy that's been putting in for 25 years and never drawn the tag. I take that back. 440 did.
Packout mentioned a tiered waiting period above. That sounds like a decent system. Maybe couple that with a "pick your region( like NR presently do)" system that I know is also being discussed. As much as I hate the random system we presently have, I can't support SF 94 in it's present form. The 50/50 split is much more palatable, but allowing 2 kids to jump in with their dad's points I can't support. If you can't find hunting opportunity for your kids in this state there is something wrong.
No one ever mentions the old guy that's been putting in for 25 years and never drawn the tag. I take that back. 440 did.
Packout mentioned a tiered waiting period above. That sounds like a decent system. Maybe couple that with a "pick your region( like NR presently do)" system that I know is also being discussed. As much as I hate the random system we presently have, I can't support SF 94 in it's present form. The 50/50 split is much more palatable, but allowing 2 kids to jump in with their dad's points I can't support. If you can't find hunting opportunity for your kids in this state there is something wrong.
I personally don't care much one way or the other on this preference point thing, they are going to do whatever they are going to do. I'm probably screwed anyway.
Fedupto sort of ignores the point behind point systems, he writes that "point systems do nothing to improve draw odds"
And of course they don't make more tags,
But they do improve draw odds on those that apply multiple times and do not draw, and that's exactly what they are supposed to do.
So actually they do improve odds, but just on those that aren't lucky in previous attempts,
Is that such a terrible thing?
Fedupto sort of ignores the point behind point systems, he writes that "point systems do nothing to improve draw odds"
And of course they don't make more tags,
But they do improve draw odds on those that apply multiple times and do not draw, and that's exactly what they are supposed to do.
So actually they do improve odds, but just on those that aren't lucky in previous attempts,
Is that such a terrible thing?
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-14 AT 05:03PM (MST)[p]Why don't the G&F place a PP survey on their site that is accessed by user login? It wouldn't be very difficult or expensive. It would avoid Triple BB's non-hunting friends abusing the system by writing Reps, and it give us a large sample of hunters input on the matter. That way, we would know if PP were truly wanted. In the time wasted trying to just shove this bill down our throats we could have actual numbers.
Fed up-
Reference your comment about me asking non-residents to write. I don't see the problem. They have actual experience with PP and can articulate the problems with them. I don't see it as "polluting the waters" but giving actual user experiences. A lot of people ask for input on a variety of things in life so they can learn to avoid the same mistakes.
Piper-
Thanks for your response. My original question asked any resident of another state with PP had any good things to say about them. I totally agree with Nevada having the best system. In fact, if this bill was a bonus system like Nevada's I wouldn't voice any opposition to it. However, in this state we don't look at how to improve our laws or seek input from anyone opposed.
Youth hunters issues -
I actually like the proposed bill with allowing youth to put in with immediate family allowing for the largest number of points. My only suggestion would be only allowing this to happen once and then put the child on their own. I can see dad buying points for mom, grandma, grandpa, and abusing the system allowing the kids to hunt a hard to draw areas two years in a row or longer.
Suggested Amendment (if this horrible bill passes) -
I would like to see the WY G&F require a hunter safety card be on file to purchase PP. This would cut down on non-hunters purchasing points and hunters taken advantage of their non-hunters buddies' points to up their chances on drawing a unit. Or, like suggested, the party goes by the less number of points.
Point Creep -
Any thoughts on how a 50/50 split would affect point creep? JM77 I would like to know your thoughts. My guess, it would add 3-5 extra years to rollover compared to a 75/25 split. Taking a 33% random draw area to the 10 year mark to get rid of top point holders. That's just a guess, kinda of like rather or not residents want PP.
Fed up-
Reference your comment about me asking non-residents to write. I don't see the problem. They have actual experience with PP and can articulate the problems with them. I don't see it as "polluting the waters" but giving actual user experiences. A lot of people ask for input on a variety of things in life so they can learn to avoid the same mistakes.
Piper-
Thanks for your response. My original question asked any resident of another state with PP had any good things to say about them. I totally agree with Nevada having the best system. In fact, if this bill was a bonus system like Nevada's I wouldn't voice any opposition to it. However, in this state we don't look at how to improve our laws or seek input from anyone opposed.
Youth hunters issues -
I actually like the proposed bill with allowing youth to put in with immediate family allowing for the largest number of points. My only suggestion would be only allowing this to happen once and then put the child on their own. I can see dad buying points for mom, grandma, grandpa, and abusing the system allowing the kids to hunt a hard to draw areas two years in a row or longer.
Suggested Amendment (if this horrible bill passes) -
I would like to see the WY G&F require a hunter safety card be on file to purchase PP. This would cut down on non-hunters purchasing points and hunters taken advantage of their non-hunters buddies' points to up their chances on drawing a unit. Or, like suggested, the party goes by the less number of points.
Point Creep -
Any thoughts on how a 50/50 split would affect point creep? JM77 I would like to know your thoughts. My guess, it would add 3-5 extra years to rollover compared to a 75/25 split. Taking a 33% random draw area to the 10 year mark to get rid of top point holders. That's just a guess, kinda of like rather or not residents want PP.
jm77
Long Time Member
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- 3,508
"Any thoughts on how a 50/50 split would affect point creep? JM77 I would like to know your thoughts. My guess, it would add 3-5 extra years to rollover compared to a 75/25 split. Taking a 33% random draw area to the 10 year mark to get rid of top point holders. That's just a guess, kinda of like rather or not residents want PP."
I think by doing the math and estimating the number the number of max points holders who draw on the random side, it would only add a year, making it 4 or 5 until all max holders have drawn, as compared to 75/25. This is true only in the areas you mentioned. For average areas in Wyoming this is a great system. I won't blow smoke about the 10% and less odds. They will take much longer to get through, but not everyone waits the whole cycle. Remember, in pure random, in those tough areas, some NEVER draw.
Non-typical,
I understand how you feel about the youth issue. Please understand there are a lot of us who feel the importance of getting youth in the sport. I fully understand the opportunity our youth hunters have here, but the "no" side of this has constantly used the youth issue to the point that it has tainted legislators. They want this youth advantage. I started all 3 of my daughters hunting antelope in an area that has leftovers every year.
However, we have the opportunity to have input on the way this is implemented. It's very possible we could limit the number of times a youth could get this advantage through regulation. The bill is giving the G&F the authority to do this by reading " The department shall develop a method..."
There is also a strong arguement to have resident party applications use the lowest point member for party apps.
I think by doing the math and estimating the number the number of max points holders who draw on the random side, it would only add a year, making it 4 or 5 until all max holders have drawn, as compared to 75/25. This is true only in the areas you mentioned. For average areas in Wyoming this is a great system. I won't blow smoke about the 10% and less odds. They will take much longer to get through, but not everyone waits the whole cycle. Remember, in pure random, in those tough areas, some NEVER draw.
Non-typical,
I understand how you feel about the youth issue. Please understand there are a lot of us who feel the importance of getting youth in the sport. I fully understand the opportunity our youth hunters have here, but the "no" side of this has constantly used the youth issue to the point that it has tainted legislators. They want this youth advantage. I started all 3 of my daughters hunting antelope in an area that has leftovers every year.
However, we have the opportunity to have input on the way this is implemented. It's very possible we could limit the number of times a youth could get this advantage through regulation. The bill is giving the G&F the authority to do this by reading " The department shall develop a method..."
There is also a strong arguement to have resident party applications use the lowest point member for party apps.
Your only helping youth who's parents have preference points. If you wanted to get youth involved you'd give the coveted tags to those who have parents that don't Hunt. Why not let parents donate tags to youth but to just let youth magically sprout max points if there father
Or mother is successful for a hA 100 tag is absurdity. You get 10 people that have two kids that come along and your completely screwing everyone who put in for the draw. Don't say its for the Kids either. Its the only way you could silence the droves of people who had kids that testified against this bill last year.
As far as the question being asked about how the 50/50 split will effect points creep let me give you my thoughts on creep. Points creep is Always driven by a increase in applicants or a decrease on tags.
For example CO had to cut the amount of deer tags given by 50% After the winters of 2007-08 and 2010-11. The effect was the amount of points needed to draw units kept creeping up.
When hunting fool or anyone gives a unit a good review for any unit the amount of applicants rise, therefore the amount of points to draw creeps up.
Sf94 will instantly cause the amount of points needed to draw to creep up for three reasons. 1. In some cases youth will be siphoning off a significant amount of available permits 2. Hunters who used to be content with a type 4 will all the sudden feel the need to put in for type 1 because they know this is there only chance to draw. 3. Hunters who have mostly hunted general will now feel the need to put in for the draw becoming collectors of preference points.
I can't wait for all that used to have a 30% chance at a tag now have a 15%. At least maybe they'll get one permit in there life now maybe? Good news is cow tags will get a lot easier to draw. This is Insanity.
Or mother is successful for a hA 100 tag is absurdity. You get 10 people that have two kids that come along and your completely screwing everyone who put in for the draw. Don't say its for the Kids either. Its the only way you could silence the droves of people who had kids that testified against this bill last year.
As far as the question being asked about how the 50/50 split will effect points creep let me give you my thoughts on creep. Points creep is Always driven by a increase in applicants or a decrease on tags.
For example CO had to cut the amount of deer tags given by 50% After the winters of 2007-08 and 2010-11. The effect was the amount of points needed to draw units kept creeping up.
When hunting fool or anyone gives a unit a good review for any unit the amount of applicants rise, therefore the amount of points to draw creeps up.
Sf94 will instantly cause the amount of points needed to draw to creep up for three reasons. 1. In some cases youth will be siphoning off a significant amount of available permits 2. Hunters who used to be content with a type 4 will all the sudden feel the need to put in for type 1 because they know this is there only chance to draw. 3. Hunters who have mostly hunted general will now feel the need to put in for the draw becoming collectors of preference points.
I can't wait for all that used to have a 30% chance at a tag now have a 15%. At least maybe they'll get one permit in there life now maybe? Good news is cow tags will get a lot easier to draw. This is Insanity.
Some of that's bologna fedupto, I agree about that kid thing thats insane, but 30% success antelope tags aren't going to become once in a lifetime for residents, come on.
I have been involved in all kinds of point systems and that's not what happens, of course this is Wyoming and the stupid parts will stick, just watch.
I can hardly even listen to the kid getting preference points parts of the proposal, it makes me sick, so I'm sure that's what they will do, that and maybe add on letting infants start collecting preference points .
I hate to say it but politicians in this state aren't very bright, and the decision making process is awful, for proof just look at the preference point 75%-25% split on what really should be OIL tags.
They politicos won't even consider a simple bonus point system or anything else, or just using point systems on species that are in a pure draw, (antelope) no, its just the radical stuff, no wonder there is so much resistance to change.
I have been involved in all kinds of point systems and that's not what happens, of course this is Wyoming and the stupid parts will stick, just watch.
I can hardly even listen to the kid getting preference points parts of the proposal, it makes me sick, so I'm sure that's what they will do, that and maybe add on letting infants start collecting preference points .
I hate to say it but politicians in this state aren't very bright, and the decision making process is awful, for proof just look at the preference point 75%-25% split on what really should be OIL tags.
They politicos won't even consider a simple bonus point system or anything else, or just using point systems on species that are in a pure draw, (antelope) no, its just the radical stuff, no wonder there is so much resistance to change.
wileywapati
Very Active Member
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- 1,808
Be aware of the baggage that comes with any type
Of point system.
In Utah management won't take place until points
Go away. If you wait in line for 20 years for an elk tag
You damn well better see a mountain full of 400" bulls
And 0 other hunters. If not the quality sucks and the hunt
Was overcrowded.
Points build entitlement that will be catered to.
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
Of point system.
In Utah management won't take place until points
Go away. If you wait in line for 20 years for an elk tag
You damn well better see a mountain full of 400" bulls
And 0 other hunters. If not the quality sucks and the hunt
Was overcrowded.
Points build entitlement that will be catered to.
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
nontypical
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,279
We already have the "entitlement" attitude without the point system.
I don't know what's worse...never drawing a good elk tag or watching the same people draw over and over. LOL.
If we must have any type of point system, Nevada's system is the best. JMO.
At my age, it probably won't matter anyway...
I don't know what's worse...never drawing a good elk tag or watching the same people draw over and over. LOL.
If we must have any type of point system, Nevada's system is the best. JMO.
At my age, it probably won't matter anyway...
Piper,
I'm just going on what has historically happened when points systems have come to fruition. Ill bet you a steak dinner you see a >10% decrease in draw odds across the board with the exception of cow tags which will get a lot better.
No other states give away youth permits tit for tat when their guardians draw. This is uncharted waters and could have devastating effects on the super hard to draw elk areas primarily around RS.
I'm just going on what has historically happened when points systems have come to fruition. Ill bet you a steak dinner you see a >10% decrease in draw odds across the board with the exception of cow tags which will get a lot better.
No other states give away youth permits tit for tat when their guardians draw. This is uncharted waters and could have devastating effects on the super hard to draw elk areas primarily around RS.
grosventrehunter
Very Active Member
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- 1,935
Jm77, are you from Wyoming or did you move here like piper and buzzy? It always amazes me how people like piper try to change things here. If utah, nevada or wherever is so great move the f@#* back and you can enjoy the PP system there. Leave Wyoming alone.
I wish us relative newcomers didn't have to say anything, but you guys have really screwed the deer hunting up over the last several decades, and then you make piss poor decisions like the awful 75%-25% trophy draw.
What are we supposed to do, just let guys like you ruin everything?
What are we supposed to do, just let guys like you ruin everything?
jm77
Long Time Member
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- 3,508
Gro
Been in Wyoming 52 yrs and have seen it all. With my luck in the draw, I am convinced I would have never drawn moose, in one of the best areas in the state or sheep. Before points, I knew two people who had already drawn 3 sheep tags each. Kinda frustrating. Both of those guys went on to draw their 4th after points. But I got one and that makes me happy.
I guess I'm well invested in Wyoming.
Been in Wyoming 52 yrs and have seen it all. With my luck in the draw, I am convinced I would have never drawn moose, in one of the best areas in the state or sheep. Before points, I knew two people who had already drawn 3 sheep tags each. Kinda frustrating. Both of those guys went on to draw their 4th after points. But I got one and that makes me happy.
I guess I'm well invested in Wyoming.
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