SF 111 mule deer and whitetail separate hunting licenses, bad for mule deer.

I think I know the answer already but those units that allow an unused Gen deer tag to be used for a whitetail doe would be a thing of the past, right? My sons and I do this every year for the last 5 or so seasons.
 
Josh Coursey has no clue what he is saying. He has no grasp on the issue and what could come about. The advocates to kill this fear that every hunter will be able to take both species, thereby putting more pressure on mule deer. No one I know that opposes it, does so because of fear of losing opportunity. We all know 7,000+ hunters fill their general deer tag with a whitetail. With two separate tags, a hunter could harvest both.

On top of that, a sportsman could apply for both LQ mule and whitetail tags driving down drawing odds for both.

The G&F admits, the current system as is, allows them all the flexibility to put or decrease pressure on either species. They will reap no benefits changing to separate species. Just increase the workload of wardens and biologists. And of course, increase in license sales which is Director Nesviks goal.

If I was a ground level G&F employee, it would piss me off that Driskill and Coursey are saying they can't effectively do their job and manage the pesky whitetails as the current system stands.
 
I hope they allow both a general wtail and general mule deer.

I'll make sure to fill both, in particular the mule deer, and send the pictures to Coursey.

I haven't shot a mule deer in over 10 years in Wyoming, but if this goes through and my tag is species specific, my mule deer tag is getting filled every year. I'll be selective with my whitetail tag, the exact opposite of how I hunt now and have been for the past 15 years. I haven't shot a mule deer holding out for something special, then hunt a whitetail later. Worked great, and I was more inclined to kill just about any whitetail later for the freezer.

Region G looks like a pretty good place to fill the freezer with a mule deer buck. Any legal buck will do.

Coursey is clueless.
 
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BuzzH said:
I hope they allow both a general wtail and general mule deer.

I'll make sure to fill both, in particular the mule deer, and send the pictures to Coursey.

I haven't shot a mule deer in over 10 years in Wyoming, but if this goes through and my tag is species specific, my mule deer tag is getting filled every year. I'll be selective with my whitetail tag, the exact opposite of how I hunt now and have been for the past 15 years. I haven't shot a mule deer holding out for something special, then hunt a whitetail later. Worked great, and I was more inclined to kill just about any whitetail later for the freezer.

Region G looks like a pretty good place to fill the freezer with a mule deer buck. Any legal buck will do.

Coursey is clueless.
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You bring up a excellent point. We do the same method. Don't find that special muley then turn to that nice whitey or a whitey doe on the last day.
Muley only tags will have a huge demand to really impact smaller bucks
 
nfh said:
You bring up a excellent point. We do the same method. Don't find that special muley then turn to that nice whitey or a whitey doe on the last day.
Muley only tags will have a huge demand to really impact smaller bucks
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Yep, and if Coursey and Driskill were actually hunters, and knew how hunters operate, they wouldn't be pushing this nonsense.

I guess they'll just have to learn the hard way.

Also, everyone make sure to recommend the GF keeps their foot the floor on issuing lots of whitetail tags in the Black Hills. Thousands of doe tags in particular. Driskill was crying about too many deer not that long ago. With the recent declines, we need to keep them shot down even lower in population so he doesn't cry anymore about crop damage.
 
Finally one more thing to bring up about the all-knowing Coursey, he's so smart he thinks its a good idea to manage game via the legislature instead of the Commission and GF.

He drones on about "science" and removes the ability for the Commission to function and actually manage on science. Run to the legislature and let people, that have no clue about wildlife, make decisions on wildlife management.

What a tool...
 
Basically what Coursey and Driskill are saying is they know more how to manage the G&F than the Dept itself. If this was the best way, why hasn't the G&F changed it years ago?
 
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This is new. Haven’t seen this much support for WG&F in years. They’re typically dismissed by this crowd as dopes. Guess you know-it-alls now have a bigger windmill to tilt at.

I don’t have a dog in this hunt, and you may be correct. Just recognizing those here who are seldom right… but absolutely never uncertain!

Go to it!

HT
 
HornedToad said:
This is new. Haven’t seen this much support for WG&F in years. They’re typically dismissed by this crowd as dopes. Guess you know-it-alls now have a bigger windmill to tilt at.

I don’t have a dog in this hunt, and you may be correct. Just recognizing those here who are seldom right… but absolutely never uncertain!

Go to it!

HT
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Thanks for your service... 🤡
 
I voted against this bs when it was in the taskforce topics. Still a dumb a$$ idea. Doesn't surprise me coursey supports it mff has never done $hit for mule deer to make a meaningful difference and this could be another notch in their belt
 
On the surface, separating the two species sounds like a good idea, but JM and Buzz make a great case why that isn't such a hunky-dory thing to do. Besides, Driskill is power hungry bumbler and damn, that suit jacket he wears in Cheyenne is butt ugly
 
jm77 said:
Basically what Coursey and Driskill are saying is they know more how to manage the G&F than the Dept itself. If this was the best way, why hasn't the G&F changed it years ago?
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Because of general otc resident tags. If all tags were limited you could easily do this but since they are not it is an awful awful idea.
 
nripepi said:
Because of general otc resident tags. If all tags were limited you could easily do this but since they are not it is an awful awful idea.
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Yeah and the second this passes they will realize it and all resident tags will go limited.
 
This is a bad idea. The BEST thing about western whitetails is the pressure they take off mule deer. They are a robust species that can flourish in changing habitat and recover quickly through up and down cycles caused by disease and other factors. Even when large-scale doe hunting is allowed, they still increase in population. As an added bonus, they taste delicious! I've hunted whitetails in northern Idaho for 25+ years and have personally witnessed lots of local meat hunters choose whitetail over mule deer to fill the freezer. Simply put, whitetail does often take the place of yearling mule deer bucks at the end of season.

In the case of myself, I often passed on smaller mule deer and even chose not to take low quality 'opportunity' mule deer tags all across the west because I always had the annual November whitetail hunt to look forward to. A prime example is the Utah general season. There were at least 10 years where I used my week of vacation to go hunt whitetails in Idaho INSTEAD of mule deer in Utah.

Not letting this awesome species be an alternative to mule deer hunting is missing the boat. If more whitetail need to be killed, offer up extra, species-specific, tags or more either-sex whitetail tags. ------SS

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This is a terrible idea. What senators do you believe may oppose this if they receive enough emails? Sen Driskill, should ask for whitetail deer to be type 3 tags for his ranch, if he wants it to be limited.
Thank you for bringing this to Monster Muleys. I've been so busy I would have missed it otherwise.
 
JakeSwensen said:
This is a terrible idea. What senators do you believe may oppose this if they receive enough emails? Sen Driskill, should ask for whitetail deer to be type 3 tags for his ranch, if he wants it to be limited.
Thank you for bringing this to Monster Muleys. I've been so busy I would have missed it otherwise.
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Need to send emails to the Senate Travel Rec & Wildlife Committee to start
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
 
elks96 said:
Is this a joint committee? Do we need to send emails to both sides now or just the Senate side? Want to make sure I understand the process…
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This is Senate Committee and they passed it yesterday. It goes to Senate floor and then to House TRW. There was only one person who spoke against it. Most don't know it is happening.
 
jm77 said:
This is Senate Committee and they passed it yesterday. It goes to Senate floor and then to House TRW. There was only one person who spoke against it. Most don't know it is happening.
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Thanks for the update. I did get an email in today but did not realize yesterday was the committee discussion. I will try hard to speak with senators. Where are most of the NGOs on this topic? I have not spoken to anyone who understands this issue. So there is a huge need for education.

I will modify my letter to the senators and share it with the paper.

Did this issue actually pass the task force? I know they were on the topic, but if it did pass the task force why was it not put into place?
 
Probably best to focus on House TRW at this point.

BHA is opposed and we have our lobbyist there working the bill.

The task force I believe approved it. It was either a Senate or House TRW interim topic and it failed to get a vote. A handful of us testified against it.
 
jm77 said:
This is Senate Committee and they passed it yesterday. It goes to Senate floor and then to House TRW. There was only one person who spoke against it. Most don't know it is happening.
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Was it me? Because I sent an email to Stacy Jones, which I never got a reply back from her. This is a stupid idea, IMO. G&F might be doing lots of stupid stuff right now (Nesvik), but whitetail deer management doesn't make that list. If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT! Was the vote unanimous?
 
How would this be bad for mule deer? If they issue the same number of tags it is a wash just more difficult to draw. I for one support this, would rather play the lotto and have a chance for both than be stuck picking and choosing between the 2. But I want limited licenses in G and H areas for residents and antler point restrictions too so I guess I am a bit unhinged
 
Dirtydoechaser69 said:
How would this be bad for mule deer? If they issue the same number of tags it is a wash just more difficult to draw. I for one support this, would rather play the lotto and have a chance for both than be stuck picking and choosing between the 2. But I want limited licenses in G and H areas for residents and antler point restrictions too so I guess I am a bit unhinged
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Why would you apply for LQ when you live in western Wyoming? And why would you wish upon yourself much harder draw odds? The real detrimental effect on muleys would be in the general areas. Hunters will do one of two things: they will only buy one general license or they will buy both. In either case, the likelihood of more bucks hitting the ground is real. Seventy five percent or more of those single license holders will choose mule deer. The five year average of general license harvests of whitetail in Wyoming is 1/3 of the deer harvest. Do the math. Mule deer bucks are surviving because hunters are being selective and shooting a whitetail after or during their mule deer hunting. There is also a higher probability of crowding in the Black Hills and other areas on public land with those hunters who buy both general tags.

The current system gives all the flexibility needed to manage both species without adding more pressure on mule deer bucks. Period.
 
Dirtydoechaser69 said:
How would this be bad for mule deer? If they issue the same number of tags it is a wash just more difficult to draw. I for one support this, would rather play the lotto and have a chance for both than be stuck picking and choosing between the 2. But I want limited licenses in G and H areas for residents and antler point restrictions too so I guess I am a bit unhinged
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How would this help? It will only increase pressure on deer. As mentioned almost a 1/3 of general deer tags end up on White tails later in the season. Forcing the split means that 1/3 will roll into pressure for mule deer. Also splitting will increase pressure on both species. Now I have 1 license and I have to chose either animal. Under the split I will have 2 licenses and as a result I can kill both with out sacrificing the opportunity at the other.

Further more, the Game and Fish can make this split at anytime for any unit they want. If they felt it was necessary they could do it today without any legislation.
 
I have had a couple responses from Senators who state the Game and Fish personnel testified were in favor of the legislation. Is this true? Is the Game and Fish in favor of this move? Who would have been the personnel that were there to testify on this issue?
 
elks96 said:
I have had a couple responses from Senators who state the Game and Fish personnel testified were in favor of the legislation. Is this true? Is the Game and Fish in favor of this move? Who would have been the personnel that were there to testify on this issue?
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Nesvik
 
elks96 said:
Thanks. So he wants the revenue. Couldn't the Game and Fish already separate the 2? They don't need the legislature?
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Nesvik wants the revenue. He wants to support his WOGA friends. He wants to support his landowner friends. At the very bottom of his list of wants, just below "F it, lets flip a coin" is anything that would actually increase game herds, access or do anything that would be of benefit or supported by Wyoming resident hunters.
 
mulecreek said:
Nesvik wants the revenue. He wants to support his WOGA friends. He wants to support his landowner friends. At the very bottom of his list of wants, just below "F it, lets flip a coin" is anything that would actually increase game herds, access or do anything that would be of benefit or supported by Wyoming resident hunters.
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That is the feeling I got, thanks for the info. I have dumped a letter to the editor on this issue. Hope it makes the rounds and people see it for what it is...
 
Got a quick response from Cyrus, more sportsmen need to get involved with issues that affect us all no matter your opinion let it be heard!! Surprises me how many complain but how few get involved one way or another !!
 
elks96 said:
How would this help? It will only increase pressure on deer. As mentioned almost a 1/3 of general deer tags end up on White tails later in the season. Forcing the split means that 1/3 will roll into pressure for mule deer. Also splitting will increase pressure on both species. Now I have 1 license and I have to chose either animal. Under the split I will have 2 licenses and as a result I can kill both with out sacrificing the opportunity at the other.

Further more, the Game and Fish can make this split at anytime for any unit they want. If they felt it was necessary they could do it today without any legislation.
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I get your sentiment, but sadly there are very few hunters in general units practicing selective harvest. People will drive past hundreds of whitetails on public ground to kill a 80" mule deer. Something has to change.
 
Dirtydoechaser69 said:
I get your sentiment, but sadly there are very few hunters in general units practicing selective harvest. People will drive past hundreds of whitetails on public ground to kill a 80" mule deer. Something has to change.
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Where? I sure in heck wont pass up a whitey of any type I would rater shoot a doe whitetail than a decent mule deer.
 
jm77 said:
The last stand on this bill is in the House. I have yet to talk to a biologist, warden or wildlife management coordinator that wants this to pass. @BuzzH @mulecreek @JakeSwensen

Spread the word!

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[email protected] 274-3909
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[email protected] 690-0185
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Just sent my letter. I will share with others and hope they speak up as well. Many I talk with have no idea how this will be a negative impact.
 
Here is what I get when I look at 2023 resident draw data.

The total Type 1&2 Deer license quota was 2452 tags. Type 3 had 3614 licenses. 1st choice Applicants for Type 1&2 in the initial draw were 18,013 applicants. Type 3 had 4600 1st Choice applicants. If these were treated as separate tags and each hunter could apply in the initial draw for both a LQ mule deer buck tag and a LQ whitetail buck tag then you could potentially add 18,013 applicants to the whitetail pool and 4600 to the mule deer pool. This would make mule deer buck tags go from overall odds of drawing of 13.6% to 10.8% and overall odds of drawing a whitetail buck tag from 78.5% to 16%. Assuming the tag quotas stay the same. Someone let me know if I am looking at this wrong?

I am certain that not all hunters will apply for both mule deer and whitetail, but it also won't be zero. No matter how it gets sliced this legislation will negatively affect both mule deer and whitetail draw odds. Potentially in enormous ways.
 
jm77 said:
Is he in favor?
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He said he was in favor because he wanted to increase opportunity for res hunters to get both a mule deer buck tag and a whitetail buck tag. I sent him the data I posted above and he said it was a good point that he had not given enough thought. He said he requested the same data from G&F to see if my data was sound. Also said they have a full day on Thursday and this was last on the agenda so it may just never make it out of committee and die.
 
elks96 said:
Where? I sure in heck wont pass up a whitey of any type I would rater shoot a doe whitetail than a decent mule deer.
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Region F. Can say it isn't as bad in regions g and h, but def not a ton of selective hunters. I would much rather a whitey doe than a sub 170 mule deer. Wish more hunters felt the same. Part of this legislation is to force more whitetail harvest from what I have been told.
 
Letters send and passed this on to a bunch of people... So we thought it was a good opportunity to have a bunch of residents kill a mule deer buck and a whitetail to apparently our deer herds are do really good.... Will be interesting to see the regs when they come out...
 
Dirtydoechaser69 said:
Part of this legislation is to force more whitetail harvest from what I have been told.
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I'm not sure how it would force anything other than hunters being forced to buy a second general tag if they wanted to have the option to shoot either deer while hunting a general license.

G&F currently can offer all the whitetail tags they want right now.
 
BuzzH said:
That's a sure sign that the politics had already been played, we were done before we started.
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We vote for these people to represent our areas. Next ballot I will just write in sh*t. If the topic or situation doesn't affect then directly then it's a simple vote and next subject
 
This is what I sent House members today on SF 111:

"At the House TRW meeting last week Sen Driskill said mule deer were no more related to whitetail deer than they were to antelope. How anyone could buy such a ridiculous statement I can't imagine, but no one challenged it. It makes no sense why Driskill and the Task Force(Nesvik) are pushing something the Senior biologist for the G&F in the Black Hills is adamantly opposed to. It will certainly mean more pressure on an already below objective mule deer herd. Leave management of deer to the professionals that are not being allowed to speak on this bill, but are all opposed to it."

Second reading on the floor of the House should be today.
 
Sent another round of emails again this am. Not sure anyone really cares or seems to understand. This will have a ton of downside. It will be only a matter of time before this forces all limited tags for all and the draw odds go to crap. It is a down ward spiral that will destroy our current set up.
 
Agree %100 percent this is away to get LQ across the State.. They can’t be that stupid to think that everyone needs two buck deer tags..
 
Dalton Banks from Powell asked on Facebook on Friday about opinions about this. We sent him some ideas and thoughts about how it was an overall bad idea. He was prepared to take it to House meetings this week. Still a slim chance it gets voted down.
 
So I'm still trying to understand what this would actually mean. Wouldn't it really have the most effect on residents, in that they would go from being able to purchase one general deer tag to being able to purchase two general deer tags?

I don't see how anyone could possibly think this would help to reduce the number of mule deer harvested each year.
 
Sparks Shooter said:
This is a bad idea. The BEST thing about western whitetails is the pressure they take off mule deer. They are a robust species that can flourish in changing habitat and recover quickly through up and down cycles caused by disease and other factors. Even when large-scale doe hunting is allowed, they still increase in population. As an added bonus, they taste delicious! I've hunted whitetails in northern Idaho for 25+ years and have personally witnessed lots of local meat hunters choose whitetail over mule deer to fill the freezer. Simply put, whitetail does often take the place of yearling mule deer bucks at the end of season.

In the case of myself, I often passed on smaller mule deer and even chose not to take low quality 'opportunity' mule deer tags all across the west because I always had the annual November whitetail hunt to look forward to. A prime example is the Utah general season. There were at least 10 years where I used my week of vacation to go hunt whitetails in Idaho INSTEAD of mule deer in Utah.

Not letting this awesome species be an alternative to mule deer hunting is missing the boat. If more whitetail need to be killed, offer up extra, species-specific, tags or more either-sex whitetail tags. ------SS

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Nice whiteys! SS I need to get to Idaho to chase them someday
 

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