Selling Big Buck Location Part 2

Founder

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
11,689
Challenge for you. Can anyone tell me one "thing" in this country that if you saw it during your daily life on public property while abiding by the law you couldn't share where you saw it for $50?


Putting the ethics and morals debate aside, a deer is a thing and if I see it I should be able to tell people where I saw it, whether they give me $50 or not. How can a law be passed to say I can't tell people what I saw while out and about?

Why has the federal government not put in place laws stopping people from telling where they saw a military base, or anything real important like that? Because it's unconstitutional. If you see something, you have the right to share what you saw and where, even for money.

Anything any of us see while out running around, we can tell others where we saw it and even accept coffee in exchange.

If the state of Wyoming doesn't want me to tell people where I see deer, they should hide them better or keep them on their private land where I can't go.

I guess that's my issue with the dumb bill they're trying to pass. Ethically and morally, maybe I'm in the wrong. Maybe some day I'll change my thinking, I don't know. But for now I think I'm fine and I think this bill is crazy.

If the government can stop people from telling where they saw a deer, what other controls over our speech could they want?

Brian Latturner
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Wyoming will do whatever it wants to do..As long as the Guides association agrees.. Like keeping Nonresidents frm hunting Federal land (Wilderness).Shutting you down with another bul#%i* law is easy for them.. Bh1
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-17 AT 04:30PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-17 AT 04:24?PM (MST)

So I just told a someone where to go for a mountain goat hunt. I told them what I saw when I was in the area 2 weeks ago.


Soooo if this law passes this could be illegal in the future?

Also this summer we had a contract cleaning trails for the forest service and the amount of game I saw was unreal. I told several people the sheep and elk I saw. I told them which drainage I saw them in. Come hunting season those elk will move else where so this being said could be illegal to?
 
My understanding of the way I read it was that as long as no money exchanged hands you would be legal. There's the solution for founder- just post the photos and locations on this site free for everybody to read and go hunt. Talk about pissing in some outfitter cheerios.....
 
I totally agree it's not worth making a new law. But I do understand how they will probably attempt to justify it. On most public land you pretty much can't take or use public resources for profit without specific permitting. Like timber, minerals, oil, water rights, etc. For smaller-scale examples....you can't use your metal detector on old homestead sites on public ground and remove coins. You can't dig in old trash dumps and remove bottles on public lands. You can't pick up flint arrowheads laying on the ground on public lands. You can't take commercial video for profit on some public land w/o a permit. You can't build a restaurant on public land and go into business. Etc, etc. The basis for these prohibitions is that you are profiting individually from a resource that is owned by all. Any exceptions to this usually requires that you "get a permit". I don't really agree with the prohibition of deer spotting for profit on public land, but I'm just saying that's probably how they can justify it. When of course, it's being done 100% for the benefit of outfitters, just like the wilderness rule.
 
You lost me at "putting the ethics and morale debate aside" and "a deer is a thing" you can claim unconstitutional all you want, but at the end of the day you are trying to make a buck off of a buck. Pimps probably make good money doing the same thing. It's actually legal in some areas, but it doesn't make it right and doesn't sit well with me. You are probably a great guy, but I don't agree with making money off of a "thing" that I supposively respect and conserve. When I start to only view mule deer as things, inches and dollar signs it's time to find a new hobby. Good luck this fall I hope you kill a whopper, you deserve it! You have put in the time, sweat equity and boot leather finding one. The guys that buy the other bucks from you I wish I could say the same.
 
You know, I understand needing permits to do business on federal land.
However, outfitters don't need permits to go out and look at deer in the summer, they need permits to meet with clients and do business with clients while on federal land.
Miners don't need permits to go look at a mine, they need a permit to actually do business (the actual mining) on federal land.
Loggers don't need a permit to go look at trees. They need a permit to cut the trees.

You shouldn't need a permit to look at something and publish all that you know about that something, whether for free or payment.

If the forest service felt that the impact I have on the land is such that it needed to be controlled, then let the forest service limit access to me and other hikers who impact that resource. But the state shouldn't be trying to control what I say about what I see while hiking around on federal land. That's infringement on Freedom of Speech, plain and simple.

If I don't want people to talk about my two headed dog, then maybe I should keep him in the house. I can't let him stand out in public view where anyone can see him then want a law to stop people from talking about him and his two heads and telling others where I live so they can see him.

I personally don't impact the resource, the deer (state property) or the federal land, any more than any other hiker.

The state of Wyoming have their deer roaming around public land where anyone can see them, yet they want laws in place to control what people say about those deer. Ridiculous!

If I saw a Wyoming politician walk into a brothel for a good time, I could sell the brothel location to a tabloid no problem, nothing against the law.
But if a deer is standing next to the brothel, the politician wants a law to stop me from sharing the location of that deer with the tabloid.
You'd sure think that if they were going to restrict what information people share for money, that deer would be way down list. Nope! Top of the list!

Brian Latturner
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LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-17 AT 07:22PM (MST)[p]
>I personally don't impact the resource,
>the deer (state property) or
>the federal land, any more
>than any other hiker.
>

>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!



This is where you're wrong.


#livelikezac
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-17 AT 07:40PM (MST)[p]How do I impact it any more than other hikers? I don't touch the deer. I don't shoot the deer.
And if you're saying that the transfer of my information impacts the resource, then how does getting paid for the information impact the resource more than sharing the same information for free?
The transfer of information that Google Earth shares via satellite images has a far greater impact on the deer resource than any information I share, why aren't they trying to restrict that information?

Either way, my comments about impacting the resource was in regards to National Forest Lands. Not wildlife.


>LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-17
>AT 07:22?PM (MST)
>
>
>>I personally don't impact the resource,
>>the deer (state property) or
>>the federal land, any more
>>than any other hiker.
>>
>
>>
>>Brian Latturner
>>MonsterMuleys.com
>>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>>on Facebook!
>
>
>
>This is where you're wrong.
>
>
>#livelikezac


Brian Latturner
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But you are impacting the wildlife. You can't separate or deny that fact. It's simple and it's clear to anyone looking at it objectively. I've told you before we should all be allowed to freely earn a living. Unfortunately we're not.


#livelikezac
 
I respect guys that do it themselves, anytime money is involved true colors show. Get off the internet and go put an arrow in one of those bucks you've shown us! Good luck and be safe!
 
Founder, the more you babble on about this topic the worse it makes you look in my opinion. This subject of charging for your scouting information is Beginning to make me sick. Most of the forums topics are great but this thing you're doing in Wyoming is getting old.
If you would just get a permit and get legal you would regain our respect. But at the rate you're going you're losing us fast. It's getting to the point where when I see one of your post I have a negative feeling about you. Please clean up your act for the sake of us all.
Thanks, respectfully buckhorn
 
Well, if you get right down to it, I'm impacting wildlife even if I never leave my house. Just two people talking and exchanging information on this website could technically qualify me as impacting wildlife. I would say that with this website or the information I share about bucks "indirectly impacts" wildlife. I'd agree to that.

Maybe someday Wyoming will require an outfitter permit for me to run this website? Gotta control who says what about deer. There are unhappy sportsmen and struggling outfitters out there.

Brian Latturner
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Totally disagree with buckhorn. Any freedom loving American should be able to see this is a total overreach of government. Founder needs to keep pounding this into people's heads. Whether you agree with the ethics of what he is doing or not, we need to recognize that we are getting way to comfortable with government creating laws that "feel good to us". I don't think people understand how big of a step down this is from people being guided.
 
Do you ever sell coordinates without including a photo of the deer? If the "scouting package" being sold includes a photo, shouldn't you be required to get a commercial photography permit like anybody else taking photography in forests for a commercial purpose?

This seems like a line that could be drawn... it's no longer just information you're selling, but a visual product taken from public land for personal profit without the proper permits.

PS. I'm not necessarily saying those are my views, just enjoying the conversation on the thread and posing a question.

Grizzly
 
The information in my head is what has some value and is what someone would want. You all get to see my pics for free. Well, free in a way. I guess your attention to ads is your payment. You know what I mean?
Outfitters don't get commercial photography permits for photos they take of deer and share with clients on their websites or through email either. Not needed. And an outfitters permit does not include commercial photography or videography permit. They haven't any more right to take and share photos than any of us.
If the Forest Service was going to start getting really strict with regards to photos and video, there would be millions of guilty people. They won't.


>Do you ever sell coordinates without
>including a photo of the
>deer? If the "scouting package"
>being sold includes a photo,
>shouldn't you be required to
>get a commercial photography permit
>like anybody else taking photography
>in forests for a commercial
>purpose?
>
>This seems like a line that
>could be drawn... it's no
>longer just information you're selling,
>but a visual product taken
>from public land for personal
>profit without the proper permits.
>
>
>PS. I'm not necessarily saying those
>are my views, just enjoying
>the conversation on the thread
>and posing a question.
>
>Grizzly


Brian Latturner
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That's too bad. Sorry. Maybe just not clicking on the thread is your answer to avoid sickness...???
I didn't start the whole subject this week, just extended it today to show how crazy it is for the state to try and restrict free speech.
BTW, what permit should I get? There is no permit needed. I can promise you, if I were breaking any law, I'd have gotten a citation by now. Telling me to "get legal" makes no sense.



> Founder, the more you babble
>on about this topic the
>worse it makes you look
>in my opinion. This subject
>of charging for your scouting
>information is Beginning to make
>me sick. Most of the
>forums topics are great but
>this thing you're doing
>in Wyoming is
>getting old.
> If you would just get
>a permit and get legal
>you would regain our respect.
>But at the rate you're
>going you're losing us fast.
> It's getting to the
>point where when I see
>one of your post I
>have a negative feeling about
>you. Please clean up your
>act for the sake of
>us all.
> Thanks, respectfully buckhorn


Brian Latturner
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Totally agree with you founder. If you write it in a book and include pictures and gps coordinates. You are selling a book.

Now if you met them and exchanged money on federal land or guided them, you could be in the wrong. As you don't. Keep fighting it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-03-17 AT 06:31AM (MST)[p] FOUNDER,......I FEEL FREEDOM SPEECH IS TO BE PROTECTED, AND YOUR ON THE RIGHT TRACT FOR SURE IN YOUR THINKING. YOUR MM SITE IS BY FAR THE BEST SITE AVAILABLE DESPITE WHAT A COUPLE OF USERS CLAIM. MM GAINS USERS BY THE WEEK, AND RECENTLY HAVE LOST A COUPLE....FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE SITE.....GOOD TRADE.

BUCKHORN........CATCH A CLUE !!!!...............YD.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-03-17 AT 07:37AM (MST)[p]Brian,

You never answered my question in the other thread. How much money did you make last year selling information? How much of that did you disclose on your taxes as income? The answer is A LOT and NONE!

You sir are blind.

Also, all this "freedom of speech" talk it funny. You guys need to do some reading to figure out where, when and how that applies.

The more I read what Brian posts the more I see his true colors. To me he appears to be a slob hunter that only loves two things, inches and money.

Begin edit.

Ps, you can't just leave ethics and morals out of a conversation. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Can you send me a list of drainages you scout to my PM so I can steer clear?!

End edit.

My two cents.
 
>My understanding of the way I
>read it was that as
>long as no money exchanged
>hands you would be legal.
>There's the solution for founder-
>just post the photos and
>locations on this site free
>for everybody to read and
>go hunt. Talk about pissing
>in some outfitter cheerios.....

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Funny!?????
He should post up the wrong GPS coordinates for free with the photos. It would look like a pumpkin patch on opening day!
A bunch of hunters looking for a big buck in the wrong area. That's gold!?




[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 
Another question.

Even if Wyoming made it illegal to sell coordinates, and you live in Utah and the person buying doesn't live in Wyoming - Is the law broken. From what I understand of state law the answer is No.

I really don't understand how people have a hard time about this, yet are okay with guides. To me, paying someone for coordinates from where they saw a buck is more sporting than hiring a guide. Yes I have done guided hunts before.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-03-17 AT 09:54AM (MST)[p]

Founder why can't I pack someone's animal out for them in exchange for a couple hundred bucks? Ive not guided them, I've not packed their camp in or out or given them any direction. I'm not with them as I pack out their animal. I'm simply exchanging my labor for $. Tell me why I can't do this.


"Guiding" is a wide loop.


#livelikezac
 
Be surprised if that legislation goes anywhere next year. Its a budget session. The state is going broke and has more important matters to tend to.

If it does pass Founder, you can still light things up. Phone Sy at SNS and obtain your guides license. They're easy enough to get. Work under him for something like an 80/20 split or whatever and carry on...
 
Do you know clueless is right! To think I've been waiting most of my life to draw a permit for that Henries buck and some other top quality units. Hell I don't need no stinking permit I'll just go hunt it anytime I wish. We don't need no stinking government regulations. Let's just go kill and do whatever we please.
Please don't be offended by that it's my right to have freedom of speech.
 
Freedom of speech? Come on, you are free to give people your opinion and you are free to tell them where a deer lives. You are not free to scout public lands and sell the information. Once you sell the info you just worked for compensation on public lands and didn't have commercial authorization to do so.

Now don't come back and whine about public lands being your lands or you won't be able to have rules at your house for your kids. It is public, we can use it under the rules. If there were no rules then people would be building shanties all over the forest, cutting trees however they want, driving wherever they please, shooting whatever they see. This entitlement mentality of doing whatever one wishes is getting really lame.
 
Disagree, as does the forest service who has the authority over the public lands you're talking about. In fact, the issue has nothing to do with the public lands (National Forest). I think you're sharing an opinion about something that isn't even up for debate. The forest service allows people to write about experiences on forest service land and share it with the world for free or payment. In fact, they want more people to share experiences and moments. That from the mouth of someone high up the chain.
And you are wrong, I am free to scout game and publish my experiences for compensation. That's why the state is trying to invent a silly new law!! If I were breaking a law already I would've been charged. I'm not, so I am free to do exactly what you say I'm not free to do.
The question is, can the state impose a law to limit my speech to only what they want me to say, while I'm saying it from my house in Utah?


>Freedom of speech? Come on,
>you are free to give
>people your opinion and you
>are free to tell them
>where a deer lives.
>You are not free to
>scout public lands and sell
>the information. Once you
>sell the info you just
>worked for compensation on public
>lands and didn't have commercial
>authorization to do so.
>
>Now don't come back and whine
>about public lands being your
>lands or you won't be
>able to have rules at
>your house for your kids.
> It is public, we
>can use it under the
>rules. If there were
>no rules then people would
>be building shanties all over
>the forest, cutting trees however
>they want, driving wherever they
>please, shooting whatever they see.
> This entitlement mentality of
>doing whatever one wishes is
>getting really lame.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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LAST EDITED ON Sep-03-17 AT 02:33PM (MST)[p]Brian, you still haven't answered my question!!!

How much money did you make off of this information? How much of that money did you disclose as income on your taxes?

"If I were breaking a law already I would've been charged. "

This quote is simply not true, since we all damn well know you didn't disclose the income made! YOU ARE A FRAUD.

Begin edit:

Why can't I find your ads in the archives? Trying to cover your tracks? You better hope someone doesn't tip off the IRS. Your walking a thin line talking about this topic, when you clearly broke the law.

End edit.
 
+1 2point, it's this me me me attitude and money that is destroying hunting. At the end of the day this isn't about constitutional rights, it's about another fellow sportsman selling out for the almighty dollar. I hate to see what hunting will look like in 10 years when my kids are ready to hit it hard. Sad to see the direction it is headed.
 
Read the links and decide for yourself.

www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r4/passes-permits/event-commercial/?cid=STELPRDB5349053

This part seems to fit. "For purposes of this definition, creation of a product for sale includes a film, videotape, .... wildlife, natural events"

This is for region 4 www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/documents/2720.pdf
and this www.fs.fed.us/specialuses/special_film.shtml

You are creating a product by scouting and selling the coordinates. If you are scouting with intent to sell the information and sell photographs or video as part of the scouting package then you are a commercial photographer. Period. You need to have a special use permit.

You can pack out someone's buck on the way back to the truck, but they can not pay you. They are not stopping you from helping. They are stopping you from conducting business on public lands without proper authorization. Is it really that hard to understand?
 
Stay down Founder, hold your mud and carry on!There's only so many tags, if your info, paid for or freely given helps somebody take thier best ever buck, that's Awesome!
 
I fully understand why a permit is required for cutting timber, removing minerals, or guiding on public land. The company/outfitter is making profit from a resource that belongs to me, you, and every other citizen of the USA.

You are correct, anyone/any company can look at timber, minerals, wildlife, or anything else on public land. The line that is crossed is the exchange of money. It appears the state of Wyoming is pursing this angle - making a profit from a public resource requires a permit. And to be totally fair, if someone takes a picture of a sunset over public land and sells it for money, that should require a permit also.

I really like the photos and videos from your scouting trips, and frequently check for updates. I don't think the State of Wyoming is concerned with posting those. Heck, I don't even think they are concerned if you post the GPS coordinates, or tell your friends, or even post the coordinates with pics at the trailhead. What they are concerned with and legislating against is the profiting from that info, a public resource. I can see their point.

You are correct, selling the info is currently not illegal, or unethical in my opinion. But if the bill passes, just get the permit and continue doing what you love. Another option is to just send me the coordinates for free!! :D :D

Again, I really like the pics and videos. Keep 'em coming.
 
Freedom of speech is a major stretch......... By that argument, I could start up a marriage counseling business and charge big bucks for 'sharing' my expertise and strategies with those experiencing marital problems in exchange for big payments......all with no training, licensure, bonding, etc.

Commerce is almost universally regulated and always has been. They aren't trying to limit your free speech, they're trying to regulate the commerce that you are creating.

This is the only way that the 'people' can hold you accountable in relation to the income that you are deriving as a result of their property. If you don't play by the rules and pay your fair share of taxes, you lose your ability to do business.

I wish you the best of luck, but no one is threatening your freedom of speech in my opinion. Personally, I'm glad that Wyoming is getting proactive as I can only imagine the impending 'gold rush' that you are starting.

Call it what you want, but you are selling a service. The people of Wyoming are free to decide the limitations of commerce allowed within their state......kinda like zoning laws and stuff. They can't keep you from talking, but they might be able to keep you from collecting money.

SS
 
Just sell the info from Utah. Wyoming can't go after you in Utah. It's a State law. It's only illegal in Wyoming. They can not make laws that govern a person physically out of their state.
 
Not exactly true......Wyoming could write the law to govern the commerce related to the game which is under their control. They could simply write a law that states that it is unlawful to receive payment for any commercial service related to wildlife without a guides license. Then also make it illegal to receive or utilize such services.

Sure, they probably wouldn't come to Utah to enforce the law, but they would be able to charge an individual and then arrest them while they are in the state of Wyoming. ----------SS
 
I don't buy that. If that were the case then any writer writing about ATV trails, rock climbing routes, good fishing lakes, mountain bike trails, etc, etc would need special permits in all these states and special guide permits and crap to share their experiences and tell people where the trails, routes and lakes are. And they don't. Anyone can legally write an article or book about all those places I've listed above and share all the details they experienced without special permits, other than a possible business license in the state where they write and publish and conduct most of their business.
The state doesn't have the right to say, "we own the fishing in the lake so you can't publish what size of fish you caught or saw swimming by the boat".
Or, "that bike trail is on state land, so you can't tell people where it is unless you have a guide license".
No, no, no. The government doesn't get to decide what experiences in our lives we're able to tell about, whether we tell them to a friend for free or tell them in a book we makes millions of dollars selling.




>Freedom of speech is a major
>stretch......... By that argument, I
>could start up a marriage
>counseling business and charge big
>bucks for 'sharing' my expertise
>and strategies with those experiencing
>marital problems in exchange for
>big payments......all with no training,
>licensure, bonding, etc.
>
>Commerce is almost universally regulated and
>always has been. They aren't
>trying to limit your free
>speech, they're trying to regulate
>the commerce that you are
>creating.
>
>This is the only way that
>the 'people' can hold you
>accountable in relation to the
>income that you are deriving
>as a result of their
>property. If you don't play
>by the rules and pay
>your fair share of taxes,
>you lose your ability to
>do business.
>
>I wish you the best of
>luck, but no one is
>threatening your freedom of speech
>in my opinion. Personally, I'm
>glad that Wyoming is getting
>proactive as I can only
>imagine the impending 'gold rush'
>that you are starting.
>
>Call it what you want, but
>you are selling a service.
>The people of Wyoming are
>free to decide the limitations
>of commerce allowed within their
>state......kinda like zoning laws and
>stuff. They can't keep you
>from talking, but they might
>be able to keep you
>from collecting money.
>
>SS


Brian Latturner
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Post 29.

Someone is dodging!!!

I think it's funny that your ads are deleted. It clearly shows that you know you did something wrong. Bottom line, you broke the law by not paying your taxes on income you gained by selling this information.

I wouldn't be to sad if you got busted for tax evasion. I don't like freeloaders.

Are you going to ever answer m question?
 
I don't think the issue is how much Founder made or if he paid taxes. That is not the question here, the question here is if he needs an outfitter license to do what he is doing. Go ahead and assume he made $10,000 on his services and he paid taxes on them or assume he didn't pay his taxes...it doesn't really matter for the argument at hand.

People scouting and selling their knowledge and location of big deer has been going on for 10s of years. How do other states deal with this? If in Utah or Colorado, what is the current law? I see it both ways here, I think the issue is Founder is not selling basic knowledge of a basin or in his examples, ATV trail or fishing lake..., but he is selling a previously known location of a trophy buck. That is the question for the state to decide on how to regulate, does he need an outfitter's license or not, the state owns and regulates wildlife, so the decision is theirs. Sure, you could make the case that the state owns the fish and regulates them, so you can't write a book about fishing a state regulated lake...they could do this, but when you are not going after one specific trophy fish that others have already scouted, then they just don't care.

I think everyone is getting too worked up over this, especially from a moral/ethical issue. If it is a moral/ethical issue, then you must have that same issue with outfitters. If so, then you have a right to your opinion, but I am sure outfitting is not going anywhere anytime soon!
 
Never asked him to post a copy of his return. I simply asked if his income from selling locations of Wyoming bucks was disclosed. We all know damn well it's not!

You cant play the OH POOR ME card, when your scamming the system. It doesn't sit well with me.

I could give two craps if I got audited, because I have nothing to hide. Brian on the other hand........
 
nripep,

I agree with you to a point. Taxes don't really matter, but bottom line is, Brian is NOT a victim here. He is scamming the system in regards to taxes. This is clear by his lack of response!

As to guides. I don't like the concept, but at least they are regulated by the state and the state gets some sort of kick back. Imagine how much more damage guides would do to an area if un regulated. This new law will nip the problem in the butt before it gets out of control.

I mean, all Brian would have to do is get the proper permits if the law passes. He doesn't want to do that because he would have to pay fees and taxes.
 
Outlawing location-selling seems like an overreach by the Guide Association, similar to the ridiculous Wilderness Area rule for non-residents (if its really for safety we need to get backpackers and hikers out of there too).

However, what you're doing is a commercialization of public land and wildlife without proper permits. Your scouting service does include photos, so at a minimum you should get the same permits as a commercial photographer to film on public land.

You could post those pics and information for free all day long, but once you charge a fee you open yourself up for regulation.

This isn't some free speech battle, it's a regulation of commerce which is literally Article I Section 8 of the Constitution. Once money changes hands, the authority to regulate your actions become unquestionable.

Keep doing what you're doing, but call it what it is... a minimally guided hunt... and get the proper permits. Then everybody's happy (except the Guide Association) but I couldn't care less about them anyway.

Grizzly
 
I just noticed an ad on this page for Yellowstone Horse Rentals.

This is very similar to what we're talking about here.

Brian, if you want to lend me your horses, or even pack in with me to hunt deer on your horses, we can do so as friends. But if you start advertising and charging for horse rentals, everything changes.

They could make virtually identical arguments to yours...

-People ride horses all the time. I'm just taking them on rides.

-The trails are public information, so they can't stop me.

-It's public land and I have a right to be there.

What do you want to bet that Yellowstone Horse Rentals has the proper permits to operate on public land? I'm guessing they're required to operate as a business and have proper permits, but I could be wrong.

Grizzly
 
>Not exactly true......Wyoming could write the
>law to govern the commerce
>related to the game which
>is under their control. They
>could simply write a law
>that states that it is
>unlawful to receive payment for
>any commercial service related to
>wildlife without a guides license.
>Then also make it illegal
>to receive or utilize such
>services.
>
>Sure, they probably wouldn't come to
>Utah to enforce the law,
>but they would be able
>to charge an individual and
>then arrest them while they
>are in the state of
>Wyoming. ----------SS


You are wrong. You know not what you speaketh. But that's okay because that's how internet lawyers normally are.

If it's illegal in Wyoming to speed but I speed on my way to Wyoming they can't stop me there and write me a ticket. Wyoming laws merely govern that which takes place in only Wyoming. If I live in Utah and sell info to hunt in Wyoming as described in this post to someone in or out of the state of Wyoming I'm breaking no laws as I sit in my house in Utah.

You can try to argue but please don't since you are beyond incorrect.
 
That's some pretty good internet lawyering right there, travishunter3006.

The law states, "Commercial filming is defined as use of motion picture, videotaping, sound-recording, or any other type of moving image or audio recording equipment on National Forest System lands that involves the advertisement of a product or service, the creation of a product for sale, and/or the use of actors, models, sets, or props,?but not including activities associated with broadcasting breaking news. For purposes of this definition, creation of a product for sale includes a film, videotape, television broadcast, or documentary of historic events, wildlife, natural events, features, subjects or participants in a sporting or recreation event, and so forth, when created for the purpose of generating income (FSH 2709.11 2008-2 (CH 40))."

Commercial filming in Wilderness Areas is even more strict.

If a person is including a photo of a deer as part of his scouting package, the law is quite clear that is "for the purpose of generating income."

Do you really want to have the discussion about crossing state lines with intent to commit a federal crime? You probably should go back to internet law school.

Grizzly
 
There is a lot of shady stuff going on these days to make a buck$ and harvest trophy game! Finder's fees to locate and find a whopper buck or bull seem to be popping up in Utah and elsewhere on an annual basis. Example: A guy scouts and locates a 200" buck in Utah. He sends video and photographs of the buck to a reknown outfitter so he can confirm the size to his client. The outfitter drives and meets his client at a designated spot, they jump in a truck and the guy watching the buck radios his gps coordinates. They hike over and the client shoots the whopper buck! The guy that located the buck gets a giant "finders fee". Not exactly what I would call 'fair chase"? I would feel mighty weird harvesting a buck that someone else watched for a week before season opened and then radioed the exact location of the buck on opening morning!

On my last Alaska dall sheep hunting trip I was camped out and the day before sheep season a plan buzzed every drainage in the area close to where I was camped...obviously searching for rams. I found out later he landed his client in the next drainage over...where we heard rifle shots the following day.

Some hunters (and guides) will do just about anything for a trophy animal. Some hunters are willing to fork out as much $ as it takes to harvest a trophy animal....and do shady things on a regular basis. The sad thing is ethics and fair chase don't mean squat to some!

If you do a web search you can likely find a gob of hunting services available to help hunters...from Alaska to Wyoming and Colorado. The question is....where should the line be drawn? What is ethical, legal, fair chase, etc.

It's actually a breath of fresh air that hunters are willing to stand up for their own beliefs and ethics. The modern age of hunting has changed things dramatically from the "good ole days." Chute planes, drones, I-phones, GPS, radios, etc. Sometimes we all need to sit back and reflect on the past and where we are going!
 
Taxes? Really? Your going to go down that road huh. Is that what we turn to now in the good old USA to win an argument. Bring up someone's taxes. What a freakin joke! I could give a rats ass about founders taxes. I don't care for what founder or any of the other antler pimps are doing. This is obviously a very sore subject. No one wants to bust there ass to find a critter they would be proud of only to have another person that was handed that info hunting the same area. Kind of is what it is. Maybe there will be a change in regulations, who knows, but come on guys. Some of you act like this is new business. Like others have said this crap has been going on for a long time. Hopefully things do change, but I doubt it. Jumping all over founders case isn't going to get you anywhere.
 
As previously mentioned there already seems to be a clear loophole to this issue. Founder pairs up with existing outfitters in G and H. Which he's already doing in some fashion it appears. There is a demand for the service. It's clear that not everyone wants a fully guided hunt or can afford one so this is a good alternative.

I can see it it now, charge $1200 for a simple "information package". Founder gets paid as an employee or consultant and needs no outfitter license himself. It's all legal. And he still gets his paycheck for all the hard work. In the end this new law does nothing except make people feel better like quite a few existing laws. And the service likely grows such as more and more information is sold now that it's coming through an established reputable outfitter. Instead of founder selling maybe a handlful of packages per year it becomes a dozen, then 20. Who knows the sky is the limit. Got to say I see founder doing pretty darn well in the future!
 
Just throwing this out here -

To me Founder's service is like Uber and Airbnb. It's the "sharing economy" model of business. Like it or not its catching hold and popular, and it's not going away anytime soon. There will be lots of fights over it as well.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-17 AT 04:22PM (MST)[p]I'm not sure if many people are aware but there are out of state guides/outfitters that currently guide in Wyo through a registered Wyo outfitter that aren't licensed (themselves) in Wyo. There is a well known Nevada outfitter that isn't actually licensed in Wyo that is doing this. Doesn't it seem kind of weird that they can guide in Wyo without a Wyo outfitter's license?

The out of state outfitter gets around the law by guiding through a Wyo resident outfitter. There were some complaints about taxes. I wonder if he is paying any Wyo taxes on these hunts?
 
I usually don't get into these debates, but...

First off, those accusing Founder of being in it for $ for inches.... to me, I see Founder as a guy who has an incredible passion for deer and finding big bucks. I don't believe he is using this as a get rich quick scheme (if he were, he'd be charging a lot more)... my impression is that the scouting service is used to help fund his passion, which enables him to do what he loves.... Finding a way that allows you to recoup some funds to spend more time in the field, I totally get it.

Secondly, the photo/film debate... I'm not a lawyer by any stretch of the imagination, but seeing how the law is enforced... I think it would make sense to conclude that the intent of this law is targeted at films or photos that are themselves sold for profit (actual film production, framed photos, etc)... in Founder's case, it is not the photo or video that people are paying for.

... so a question to those that tout he is in violation the permitting process... have you ever picked up a horn on public land, and then sold it some time later? Isn't that considered removing a resource from public lands for profit? Should we require a permit to do that as well?

I don't believe Founder is trying to weasel his way out of any permits, but there isn't any that he would categorically fall under. As he has mentioned, if he was in violation, it would've been enforced by now.... it'd be like some knucklehead telling you that you need to get a CDL to tow your 30ft camp trailer behind your F350. Then when you tell the knucklehead that you actually don't, he responds by saying "well you should do it anyway"......
On that note, let me ask this question of Founder: If you knew of a permit necessary at this time to keep the scouting service in compliance, would you obtain the permit? Just to clarify for those that are bashing you for non-compliance.

Wyoming definitely caters to the Outfitting industry, beyond what I believe to be constitutional in some cases. (Nonresident hunting restrictions in Wilderness areas)

Before everyone completely bashes me, the scouting service does leave me a little conflicted. However, I believe Brian's intentions are honest. As long as I am left with the impression that he is merely trying to recoup some costs so he can spend more time in the field, he has my support..... I would find it objectionable if he was constantly in a helicopter scouring the mountains for the biggest buck in a given unit, so he could auction the info to the highest bidder.
 
The problem is...Founder may not be in it for big $ and just to recoup costs to spend more time in the field..but? If a law isn't introduced to protect the resource there will be other guys that try to take full advantage of the system and sell coordinates, video, pics, or whatever for big bucks$$$. The "other guys" may take it to the extreme by using drones, chute planes, or what ever it takes to locate giant bucks before or during the season for large sums of $ as long as it is permitted by law. If you believe that is ok..good for you! I personally research, scout, and hunt on my own. Other hunters don't have the time or want to make time so I understand why they would hire someone for this info. Is it ok to sell gps coordinates, photos, etc for monstermuley bucks for $50, how about $20,000, or maybe $50,000?

I have a feeling the law has been introduced in Wyo to prevent people from taking advantage of the system at the expense of wildlife.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-17 AT 05:21PM (MST)[p]In a perfect world the proposed law would help protect the resource. But as written all I see is that the practice will continue (and even increase) under an outfitters license. Therefore it's really no change. The state would need to outright ban the practice to totally protect the resource. Once the outfitters catch on that there is easy money to be made they will cash in on it. The outfitters rule the state.

>The problem is...Founder may not be
>in it for big $
>and just to recoup costs
>to spend more time in
>the field..but? If a
>law isn't introduced to protect
>the resource there will be
>other guys that try to
>take full advantage of the
>system and sell coordinates, video,
>pics, or whatever for big
>bucks$$$. The "other guys"
>may take it to the
>extreme by using drones, chute
>planes, or what ever it
>takes to locate giant bucks
>before or during the season
>for large sums of $
>as long as it is
>permitted by law. If
>you believe that is ok..good
>for you! I personally
>research, scout, and hunt on
>my own. Other hunters
>don't have the time or
>want to make time so
>I understand why they would
>hire someone for this info.
> Is it ok to
>sell gps coordinates, photos, etc
>for monstermuley bucks for $50,
>how about $20,000, or maybe
>$50,000?
>
>I have a feeling the law
>has been introduced in Wyo
>to prevent people from taking
>advantage of the system at
>the expense of wildlife.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-17 AT 05:39PM (MST)[p]>As long as I am
>left with the impression that
>he is merely trying to
>recoup some costs so he
>can spend more time in
>the field, he has my
>support.....

Can I pack out others animals for money in your eyes bucknut?

"Guiding" is a wide loop.


#livelikezac
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-17 AT 06:31PM (MST)[p]I'm not sure that it is logical to assume that laws and standards governing other activities apply in any way to hunting. It is absolutely normal for specialized laws to be created to address specific problems/issues. For example, it's not illegal for me to fly into an area and take pictures of flowers the same day. Not true for hunting. It is not illegal for me to use a spotlight to find mushrooms. Not true for hunting.

I'm no lawyer and I could be wrong. I'm just trying to apply common sense and my observation of how it all works to your situation.

I hope that you are successful but I do think that the state of Wyoming can and should regulate your activities, charge you the appropriate fees, and audit your books to ensure that you are playing by the rules. I also hope that others will compete with you to bring about market equilibrium for these type of services.

So I guess I would argue...YEP, YEP, YEP. The government absolutely can regulate commerce. They don't always choose to but, in your case, it looks like they might.-------SS



>I don't buy that. If that
>were the case then any
>writer writing about ATV trails,
>rock climbing routes, good fishing
>lakes, mountain bike trails, etc,
>etc would need special permits
>in all these states and
>special guide permits and crap
>to share their experiences and
>tell people where the trails,
>routes and lakes are. And
>they don't. Anyone can legally
>write an article or book
>about all those places I've
>listed above and share all
>the details they experienced without
>special permits, other than a
>possible business license in the
>state where they write and
>publish and conduct most of
>their business.
>The state doesn't have the right
>to say, "we own the
>fishing in the lake so
>you can't publish what size
>of fish you caught or
>saw swimming by the boat".
>
>Or, "that bike trail is on
>state land, so you can't
>tell people where it is
>unless you have a guide
>license".
>No, no, no. The government doesn't
>get to decide what experiences
>in our lives we're able
>to tell about, whether we
>tell them to a friend
>for free or tell them
>in a book we makes
>millions of dollars
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-17 AT 06:48PM (MST)[p]I always thought the line to determine if it's guiding/outfitting was drawn by the fact that someone was physically present with the hunter at some point during the hunt? So if a hunter rents a horse from Joe Blow in Afton WY and takes it up the mtn to retrieve some game meat, Joe Blow doesn't need an outfitters license. But if Joe Blow goes along with the hunter and packs the hunter in with his horse, or packs meat out (and is paid $) then joe Blow needs an appropriate license.

Founder is never present during the hunt, therefore no outfitter license is needed under current law. But it appears WY is now trying to expand the requirement to include folks like founder.
 
^^ But Joe Blow will need a license/permit if he's advertising and running a business charging for horse rentals in National Forest.

Whereas, if I lend you a horse for free, I'm just being neighborly. Therein lies the difference... $$$.

Grizzly
 
I do know the real reason founder is doing this. Sure he loves big meal deer and he loves to be out scouting in the back country. But more than that he would love to kill a giant buck and be able to post all the pics and get all of the notoriety. I understand that. I'm the same way. I love big Mule deer and I love to scout out and look at them constantly and when I killed my 220 inch Nevada buck I bragged and put it in the magazines and had a ball with it. It was great.
Last year when I drew 13 B I did not kill a buck because I wanted a supergiant so that I could brag and post pictures and have it on my wall. I just didn't find a buck that would fit that bill.
What founder is doing by his own admission on these forums is selling this information to help pay for his quest for that giant buck and the notoriety he will gain from it. I'm sure it all started out as an innocent venture but has evolved into this law and legislation debate. Now the thought that comes into my mind is that say he does eventually kill a A giant buck as a result of the funds from selling this scouting information in Wyoming and tries to post and show it off. What is going to be the opinion of some of us on the ethics of that hunt and the funds that supported it? Will there be an astrisk beside it when it's entered in the book. Will there be a dark cloud hanging over it has it hangs on the wall? Who will appreciate it and who wont? These are some of the questions I would ask myself if I was him before going much further on this permit battle issue.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-17 AT 07:39PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-17 AT 07:29?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-17 AT 07:28?PM (MST)

That's a permit for national forest (federal) use, not a Wy state outfitters license. So yes Joe Blow may need a federal use permit but not a Wy state outfitter license.

And as founder has already and repeatedly stated he checked with national forest service for the need for a permit from them and they stated none was needed for what he was doing.


>^^ But Joe Blow will need
>a license/permit if he's advertising
>and running a business charging
>for horse rentals in National
>Forest.
>
>Whereas, if I lend you a
>horse for free, I'm just
>being neighborly. Therein lies the
>difference... $$$.
>
>Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-17 AT 11:03PM (MST)[p]DW....without a permit, I assume?....I believe that one has and does get enforced. No sense in debating what you can or cannot do when it is already pretty black and white.... (unless you're getting into the ethics, morals, or principal of the matter... but that would need its own thread).
 
I abide by the law. If this bill passes, then I'll operate legally or not operate.
Hopefully some smart politicians see it as limiting my freedom to speak of my experiences, which it is.

Where's the list of what parts of our personal experiences we can share and what we can't? The first question in this entire thread.....anyone have a single example????? I can't think of anything and hours of looking has turned up nothing.

Had an attorney yesterday at a get together tell me he didn't think it was constitution at all. Before I finished the story, he blurted....1st amendment!
He said there are groups who help fund fights for 1st amendment rights. I don't know. He's not my attorney, just an attorney in the neighborhood.

BTW - 800-829-1040, have at it crazy dude

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
I think there is a world of difference between sharing info and sharing info for $.,,,especially when it comes to hunting and wildlife.

As an example, I've swapped hunts with guys over the years. I take them hunting in my neck of the woods and they take me hunting in theirs. It's a great way to share experiences with other experienced hunters in the country they know well. We pay for our own meals, gas, etc. and hunt as friends. This same thing would be illegal in several states if $ exchanged hands (would need a guides/outfitters license).

Once $ exchanges hands...it's an entirely different scenario!
 
>And as founder has already and
>repeatedly stated he checked with
>national forest service for the
>need for a permit from
>them and they stated none
>was needed for what he
>was doing.

Did he call the janitor in the Cedar City office? Jk, I really don't have strong feelings either which way, just enjoying the lively discussion. Have a good one.

Grizzly
 
It doesn't look like Founder has found anything this year that very many people would be willing to pay much for information about. Maybe this year he will have to sell information about bucks from previous years and just say "even though I haven't found any good bucks here this year, this is an example of the kind of bucks this area is capable of producing".

As far as whoever keeps whining about Founder reporting his income, keep in mind you only have to pay taxes on your NET income, and after deducting expenses, that may well be zero or even a loss. I have been in the cattle business myself for the past two years and hired a tax professional to do my taxes, and guess what, I have been able to show a net loss on the cattle business for both years.
 
I have enjoyed this site for long time. Discussions like this, is one of the reasons. For the most part seeing a bunch of hunters giving their opinions and speaking their minds about the outdoors no matter which side of the argument you are on is what makes this site cool. I am not a lawyer and don't know the legalities of all this. There are I think more of a question of ethics here then anything. Even though that was asked to be put aside for this discussion. But my 2 cents is legal and ethical aren't always the same, Founder is obviously doing something legal. Alot feel this isn't ethical. As for me I don't judge. I have never had the luxury of viewing and seeing a buck others would pay for to hunt, so could not tell you how I would handle it. Hope you keep posting the pics and videos, cause I enjoy them Founder.
 
Haha, yeah that's a good one grizzly! Same here, just enjoying all the viewpoints and learning!

>>And as founder has already and
>>repeatedly stated he checked with
>>national forest service for the
>>need for a permit from
>>them and they stated none
>>was needed for what he
>>was doing.
>
>Did he call the janitor in
>the Cedar City office? Jk,
>I really don't have strong
>feelings either which way, just
>enjoying the lively discussion. Have
>a good one.
>
>Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 06:59AM (MST)[p]
>DW....without a permit, I assume?....I believe
>that one has and does
>get enforced. No sense in
>debating what you can or
>cannot do when it is
>already pretty black and white....
>(unless you're getting into the
>ethics, morals, or principal of
>the matter... but that would
>need its own thread).


But all I'm trying to do is offset my hunting with a little side cash?
My point is it's an exchange if labor for $ just like founder is doing, he's exchanging his leg work scouting for $. We'd both be making $ doing the job of an outfitter and that's where the issue is. There are people trying to make a living as outfitters and in doing what founder is doing or I wish I could do we are/would be taking food from the mouths of the people who have gone to the trouble of getting all the training and licensing to do the job. I disagree with the system in that respect and wish our government would allow all of us to make a living as we wish, unfortunately that's just not the way it is. Yes it's currently "legal" to do what founders doing but I suspect not for long. Imagine 10 or 20 founders in that G and H area. Would there be a single buck over 180 without his pic all over the internet with a $ next to the price of coordinates? I liken this to the impact of illegal aliens in my business. They drive down the prices because they dont follow all the rules I have to. They take food out of my mouth, and the mouths of my employees familys no different than if they'd come in the night and steal my tools!



#livelikezac
 
"Miners don't need permits to go look at a mine, they need a permit to actually do business (the actual mining) on federal land."

If I intend to go find a place to mine whether to mine it myself or to sell the location to someone else to mine, you bet your butt I need a permit. Its called and exploration permit and you need it before you set foot on NF, BLM or State land. It will include the exact locations, Lat., Long, etc. that I plan to explore. The permit cost $. I will pay a cost recovery fee to the agency that controls the land to cover their costs associated researching my permit. Sounds like a fair system for your enterprise as well.
 
I can see Kennecott mine every time I drive through the Salt Lake Valley, and could even sell you the location if you'd like to know where it is. No permit is required. I've seen many abandoned mines in the hills too, and could write a book telling where I seen them all and make tens of dollars, no problem. No permit needed for that. Sure, if I were digging or actually affecting the land more so than the average hiker, then absolutely I'd need a permit. But if all I'm doing is walking around the mountain like anyone else out on a hike, and see a cool spot for a mine, or even an abandoned mine across the canyon, I can tell anyone and everyone for free or a fee. And the owners of the abondoned mines can't get laws passed that preclude me from telling people where I saw their abandoned mine.



>"Miners don't need permits to go
>look at a mine, they
>need a permit to actually
>do business (the actual mining)
>on federal land."
>
>If I intend to go find
>a place to mine whether
>to mine it myself or
>to sell the location to
>someone else to mine, you
>bet your butt I need
>a permit. Its called
>and exploration permit and you
>need it before you set
>foot on NF, BLM or
>State land. It will
>include the exact locations, Lat.,
>Long, etc. that I plan
>to explore. The permit
>cost $. I will
>pay a cost recovery fee
>to the agency that controls
>the land to cover their
>costs associated researching my permit.
> Sounds like a fair
>system for your enterprise as
>well.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 10:14AM (MST)[p]The comment about founder and taxes made me think, does every guide that get a tip pay taxes on the cash tip? What about taxes on gifts?

I can see why some believe what founder is doing is bad. It could be bad if 20 other guys did the same thing.

It is a bigger problem with guide association, blocking non residents from hunting wilderness. This forces most non resident hunters in a smaller area. They then bring up/propose a law protecting public areas National forest to keep the average guys from sharing info, they know most people can't just get an outfitters license, they are limited, and not worth the money for what money is charged.

Finders fees will likely occur in many western states.

Mixed feelings, like trail cams, long range shooting.

Outfitters should not be able to fly in July IMO.

With founders info the hunter still needs to try to find a good buck.

As mentioned before, the guide, pretty much will find the buck, sometimes they have spotters to keep an eye on the buck, they give their client their long range gun, dial it in after ranging it, they do about everything but pull the trigger.

Who is hurting our resource and big buck population?
 
I keep seeing posts about outfitters damaging and hurting the resource. Can't say they are or aren't as I've never seen any empirical data to support such contentions. However, I know the G&F adjusts quotas when warranted based on harvest, bad winters, wolves, etc., and yet G & H are still general license for residents. If outfitters are damaging these areas as claimed, one would assume we'd start seeing more areas going limited quota. If you look at outfitter web sites, they take a decent number of big bucks as well as a quite a few mediocre bucks. Both of which are probably a small percent of the total harvest in some of these areas. If anyone has actual facts either way, would love to see them.

The outfitter I'm hunting with this fall only has five or
six deer hunters and several of them are wounded warrior type donation hunts where I'm assuming they'll be shooting the first branched antlered bucks they see...
 
>What about people selling their bonus
>points?

I'm sure he's involved in this gig as well. Extra cash from selling buck locations will help cover that expense.
If he finds a 200 inch buck he's not going to sell the info on that one he's going to sell the180s and use that money to buy some points from someone so that he can hunt that 200 for himself.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 10:14PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 10:13?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 09:51?PM (MST)

Brian

I'm sure I read you were going to hook up with an outfitter and make all this moot. In fact it was none other than Sy Gilliland with S-N-S.

Just wait and see what Sy has in store for all you NR DIY hunters in the near future. You think the "wilderness guide law" is bad? Oh boy...
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 10:05PM (MST)[p]Brian when will you admit you have a mental illness when it comes to mule deer. Until you get the help you need you will only become more OCD. Why can't you be like normal people and hunt mule deer for the love of the adventure and the eating of the venison and spending time with family and friends. You are on this ego trip to kill this 200" deer. You can't eat the horns. Pure Vanity.
 
Mental illness? Probably not, ha ha. Addiction, likely. I love the challenge of finding and hunting big bucks. I love the sweat and pain of climbing the mountain. When something special is finally found, the feeling is incredible. To harvest one is the great finish line and I know I've earned my success.
I assure you, I love mule deer hunting and the adventures more than most for sure. I think that's proof based on the time I've invest over the past 30 years.
The venison makes good jerky too. But I hunt for the challenge of finding and harvesting something very rare.
I save family and friend time for boating, rock climbing and date night.
You hunt for your reasons, I'll hunt for mine and we'll leave each other be.


>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>AT 10:05?PM (MST)
>
>Brian when will you admit you
>have a mental illness when
>it comes to mule deer.
>Until you get the help
>you need you will only
>become more OCD. Why can't
>you be like normal people
>and hunt mule deer for
>the love of the adventure
>and the eating of the
>venison and spending time with
>family and friends. You are
>on this ego trip to
>kill this 200" deer. You
>can't eat the horns. Pure
>Vanity.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>AT 10:14?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>AT 10:13?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>AT 09:51?PM (MST)
>
>Brian
>
>I'm sure I read you were
>going to hook up with
>an outfitter and make all
>this moot. In fact it
>was none other than Sy
>Gilliland with S-N-S.
>
>Just wait and see what Sy
>has in store for all
>you NR DIY hunters in
>the near future. You think
> the "wilderness guide law"
>is bad? Oh boy...

Nut up and let the cat all the way out of the bag jm77!


#livelikezac
 
Well put Brian. I'm really just trying to give you a hard time. Chacun son gout. French for "to each his own".
 
It looks like others are doing the same thing to a point and have been for years, check this out:

http://wescout4u.com/public-land-scouting-packages/wyoming-scouting-packages/

These are aerial scouted and run $995, as we fly under FAA Part 135.

Aaron Gutzweiller?s 2005 Wyoming deer. We scouted this buck in August. Aaron shot him opening day. Visit wescout4u.com!

They do say that they are not finding specific deer to hunt in their overview, but they pretty much did in this case that they advertised. Maybe they didn't tell this guy there was a big buck in there?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>AT 10:14?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>AT 10:13?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>AT 09:51?PM (MST)
>
>Brian
>
>I'm sure I read you were
>going to hook up with
>an outfitter and make all
>this moot. In fact it
>was none other than Sy
>Gilliland with S-N-S.
>
>Just wait and see what Sy
>has in store for all
>you NR DIY hunters in
>the near future. You think
> the "wilderness guide law"
>is bad? Oh boy...

JM77, I've gotten to think about the proposed legislation now over the weekend. So, one item that keeps coming to me is what will be the penalty to licensed outfitters that buy information? Seems to me as this law is currently wrote that it only takes into account penalties to the non-outfitters (general public), kind-of-a one way street. I bring this up as there has been a buck for several years now on the winter range in Sublette County that has garnered much attention. In small circles, its known that, some outfitters, would pay a HANDSOME finders fee to anyone willing to share the location of this buck. Its totally legal at this time of course. And I'm talking about a fee that makes Founder's service fee's look cheap!! His fee's are a bargain actually, even if you live here, but that's another topic for a another thread. So, if a licensed outfitter persuades a guy too sell information about a buck or bull, what's going to be the penalty to the outfitter? Loss of his outfitters license..? A $20,000 penalty..? Both..? If this proposed legislation is going to be introduced, it needs to take into account penalties for both the general public and licensed outfitters. After all, we expect licensed outfitters to follow the rules right..? Those licensed need to SHOW and RESPECT that responsibility too. Penalities should be more for licensed professionals. That's how all licensed professions are regulated. Just my thoughts....
 
JM77, I've gotten to think about the proposed legislation now over the weekend. So, one item that keeps coming to me is what will be the penalty to licensed outfitters that buy information? Seems to me as this law is currently wrote that it only takes into account penalties to the non-outfitters (general public), kind-of-a one way street. I bring this up as there has been a buck for several years now on the winter range in Sublette County that has garnered much attention. In small circles, its known that, some outfitters, would pay a HANDSOME finders fee to anyone willing to share the location of this buck. Its totally legal at this time of course. And I'm talking about a fee that makes Founder's service fee's look cheap!! His fee's are a bargain actually, even if you live here, but that's another topic for a another thread. So, if a licensed outfitter persuades a guy too sell information about a buck or bull, what's going to be the penalty to the outfitter? Loss of his outfitters license..? A $20,000 penalty..? Both..? If this proposed legislation is going to be introduced, it needs to take into account penalties for both the general public and licensed outfitters. After all, we expect licensed outfitters to follow the rules right..? Those licensed need to SHOW and RESPECT that responsibility too. Penalities should be more for licensed professionals. That's how all licensed professions are regulated. Just my thoughts....
 
>That's some pretty good internet lawyering
>right there, travishunter3006.
>
>The law states, "Commercial filming is
>defined as use of motion
>picture, videotaping, sound-recording, or any
>other type of moving image
>or audio recording equipment on
>National Forest System lands that
>involves the advertisement of a
>product or service, the creation
>of a product for sale,
>and/or the use of actors,
>models, sets, or props,?but not
>including activities associated with broadcasting
>breaking news. For purposes of
>this definition, creation of a
>product for sale includes a
>film, videotape, television broadcast, or
>documentary of historic events, wildlife,
>natural events, features, subjects or
>participants in a sporting or
>recreation event, and so forth,
>when created for the purpose
>of generating income (FSH 2709.11
>2008-2 (CH 40))."
>
>Commercial filming in Wilderness Areas is
>even more strict.
>
>If a person is including a
>photo of a deer as
>part of his scouting package,
>the law is quite clear
>that is "for the purpose
>of generating income."
>
>Do you really want to have
>the discussion about crossing state
>lines with intent to commit
>a federal crime? You probably
>should go back to internet
>law school.
>
>Grizzly

Hey there fuzzy grizz,


Is the law which you are referencing the same that we are discussing on this thread? no. #readingcomprehension
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>>AT 10:14?PM (MST)
>>
>>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>>AT 10:13?PM (MST)
>>
>>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>>AT 09:51?PM (MST)
>>
>>Brian
>>
>>I'm sure I read you were
>>going to hook up with
>>an outfitter and make all
>>this moot. In fact it
>>was none other than Sy
>>Gilliland with S-N-S.
>>
>>Just wait and see what Sy
>>has in store for all
>>you NR DIY hunters in
>>the near future. You think
>> the "wilderness guide law"
>>is bad? Oh boy...
>
>JM77, I've gotten to think about
>the proposed legislation now over
>the weekend. So, one
>item that keeps coming to
>me is what will be
>the penalty to licensed outfitters
>that buy information? Seems
>to me as this law
>is currently wrote that it
>only takes into account penalties
>to the non-outfitters (general public),
>kind-of-a one way street.
>I bring this up as
>there has been a buck
>for several years now on
>the winter range in Sublette
>County that has garnered much
>attention. In small circles,
>its known that, some outfitters,
>would pay a HANDSOME finders
>fee to anyone willing to
>share the location of this
>buck. Its totally legal
>at this time of course.
> And I'm talking about
>a fee that makes Founder's
>service fee's look cheap!!
>His fee's are a bargain
>actually, even if you live
>here, but that's another topic
>for a another thread. So,
>if a licensed outfitter persuades
>a guy too sell information
>about a buck or bull,
>what's going to be the
>penalty to the outfitter?
>Loss of his outfitters license..?
> A $20,000 penalty..?
>Both..? If this proposed
>legislation is going to be
>introduced, it needs to take
>into account penalties for both
>the general public and licensed
>outfitters. After all, we expect
>licensed outfitters to follow the
>rules right..? Those licensed
>need to SHOW and RESPECT
>that responsibility too. Penalities should
>be more for licensed professionals.
> That's how all
>licensed professions are regulated.
>Just my thoughts....

At this time the legislation only targets the seller, not the buyer.
 
Why you not doing this in Utah? Utah has big names and big money comming to shoot bucks. Utah has super prime deer areas and wouldnt it be closer to home. Just curious.
 
>Totally disagree with buckhorn. Any
>freedom loving American should be
>able to see this is
>a total overreach of government.
> Founder needs to keep
>pounding this into people's heads.
> Whether you agree with
>the ethics of what he
>is doing or not,
>we need to recognize that
>we are getting way to
>comfortable with government creating laws
>that "feel good to us".
> I don't think people
>understand how big of a
>step down this is from
>people being guided.

AMEN!!!

New to the site, only hunt about 10 days out of state a year. I've never paid a guide. I'm all about DIY. But more than that, I'm an American. Hardcore conservative American to be exact. Just like Founder.

Just FYI, I'm from California and have never heard of this topic until today when eastmans sent me an email about it.
 
>New to the site, only hunt
>about 10 days out of
>state a year. I've never
>paid a guide. I'm all
>about DIY. But more than
>that, I'm an American. Hardcore
>conservative American to be exact.
>Just like Founder.
>
>Just FYI, I'm from California and
>have never heard of this
>topic until today when eastmans
>sent me an email about
>it.



You might wanna ask him who he voted for before making that assumption.


#livelikezac
 
>You might wanna ask him who
>he voted for before making
>that assumption.

Not to mention, the "hardcore conservative" crowd doesn't even believe in the idea of public land and thinks it should be privatized.

There are a lot of hardcore hunters right now voting Democrat. Nobody knows what goes on in that ballot booth.

Grizzly
 
Commercial photography permits have been discussed on this thread literally since the first day as photos are part of the scouting package offered by Founder and they're already controlled for commercial purposes.

But as you've said above, "You are wrong. You know not what you speaketh"

#readingcomprehension

Grizzly
 
>
>>You might wanna ask him who
>>he voted for before making
>>that assumption.
>
>Not to mention, the "hardcore conservative"
>crowd doesn't even believe in
>the idea of public land
>and thinks it should be
>privatized.
>
>There are a lot of hardcore
>hunters right now voting Democrat.
>Nobody knows what goes on
>in that ballot booth.
>
>Grizzly

Thought that was gonna happen if Hillary didn't win? In fact, until your post I haven't heard mention of it since she lost. Coincidence?


#livelikezac
 
This bill, as written, basically sucks. Clean it up.

I agree with Brian...it's unconstitutional. I don't think it would pass the first appeal. But then, I'm no lawyer.

Brian makes some great points; as do those opposed to him doing this.

At the very least, he should have to be licensed.

But this entire debate misses what I consider to be the biggest issue of all: The future of hunting.

Someone on a previous post mentioned killing a big buck for the purpose of showing him off and being able to brag about his conquest. To me, this shows just how far hunter attitudes have gone DOWNHILL. I trophy hunt. Not so I can show off a dead animal to a bunch of faceless names on the internet or some magazine. I have my reasons and they are mine; and I don't need to share them for validation from ANYONE. Commercialization of wildlife is not good for the resource. How can it be??

You can spin it anyway you want, but in my opinion, this was the impetus for this legislation to begin with...

Sometimes I think us hunters are our own worst enemies...
 
>This bill, as written, basically sucks.
>Clean it up.
>
>I agree with Brian...it's unconstitutional. I
>don't think it would pass
>the first appeal. But then,
>I'm no lawyer.
>
>Brian makes some great points; as
>do those opposed to him
>doing this.
>
>At the very least, he should
>have to be licensed.
>
>But this entire debate misses what
>I consider to be the
>biggest issue of all: The
>future of hunting.
>
>Someone on a previous post mentioned
>killing a big buck for
>the purpose of showing him
>off and being able to
>brag about his conquest. To
>me, this shows just how
>far hunter attitudes have gone
>DOWNHILL. I trophy hunt. Not
>so I can show off
>a dead animal to a
>bunch of faceless names on
>the internet or some magazine.
>I have my reasons and
>they are mine; and I
>don't need to share them
>for validation from ANYONE. Commercialization
>of wildlife is not good
>for the resource. How can
>it be??
>
>You can spin it anyway you
>want, but in my opinion,
>this was the impetus for
>this legislation to begin with...
>
>
>Sometimes I think us hunters are
>our own worst enemies...

Cliff, the lawyers(LSO) are right there when they do these bills. They had them do a few word changes to stay out of trouble. I'm sure it is not unconstitutional.

It's the money, that changes everything.
 
I think it needs addressed. JM77 says its set up to discipline the seller(s) not the buyer. You can certainly work for a licensed outfitter and they can pay you a commission to find game. And as long as your an outfitter you can sell information as your going to be licensed in the State of Wyoming. But there's no discipline if your an outfitter and persuade an individual from providing information that is not working under their business. Aside from becoming an outfitter, the easiest way if your interested in providing game scouting information and making a little extra money is to approach an outfitter(s) about working for them, under their business, on a commission basis, just like selling real estate or vehicles. Then the money you make will be taxed.
 
It's to smoky to glass tonight, so I thought I would check out MonsterMuleys.com This truly is a great and fun site to check out. Founder I commend you for what you have done here. I thought founder and I had a lot in common. But clearly we do not. As I think selling a Big Bucks location is wrong in every way. Talking, sharing or helping someone with the where a bouts of a big buck is not even close to the same thing as selling a Big Bucks GPS coordinates. I am one of many that has written letters to the State to put an end to this practice. I will give you just one example. My family has hunted one particular place since the 1950's. And I don't want to Hunt up there with some guys that have bought the GPS coordinates of the same Big Buck I am hunting. And one of the bucks you had pictures of last year was in that place. Our family tradition. I think it is only fair that you should also know, there are some, that If they find out what your driving, You will need 4 new tires. As much as I am against what you are doing. I am not for damaging any ones property.
 

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