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Say good buy to wolf hunting

swampmule

Active Member
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A federal judge in Montana expressed skepticism Tuesday that the Endangered Species Act allows the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to remove federal protection of wolves in Montana and Idaho but not in Wyoming.

In a hearing for a suit brought by conservation groups against the federal wildlife agency, U.S. District Judge Donald Molloy told Justice Department attorney Mike Eitel he was having trouble accepting the government's bifurcation of protection rules. Under federal actions, Wyoming wolves are separated from the rest of their ?distinct population segment? in the northern Rockies, Molloy said in his Missoula courtroom.

?I understand the practical argument,? Molloy said. ?I understand the political argument. Those two things are very, very clear. But what I don't understand is the legal argument. That's not very clear.?

Fish and Wildlife?s decision to remove federal protection from a portion of the northern Rocky Mountain gray wolf population violates the Endangered Species Act, conservation groups argued. Lawyers from Earthjustice said that delisting part of the population is grounds for putting all wolves in the northern Rockies back on the threatened and endangered species list. The Jackson Hole Conservation Alliance is among the groups represented by Earthjustice.

In 2009, Fish and Wildlife removed a portion of the Rocky Mountain gray wolf

Act protection in Montana and Idaho. However, because of inadequate state protections for wolves, the agency chose to continue federal protection for gray wolves in Wyoming.

If Molloy rules in favor of Fish and Wildlife?s decision to partially delist the gray wolf population, it could set a precedent for future delistings, allowing the federal government to arbitrarily pick and choose which animals are protected and where, Earthjustice attorney Doug Honnold said after the hearing.

?If the Fish and Wildlife Service can get away with this, the scope of the Endangered Species Act is radically restricted,? Honnold said.

A ruling in favor of conservation groups, however, might put additional pressure on Wyoming to come up with a wolf management plan that will pass muster with Fish and Wildlife. So far, Wyoming?s plans, which have sought to minimize the number of wolves with no protection at all in most of the state, have not met federal standards.

State management plans in Idaho and Montana also are problematic, conservation lawyers said. The plaintiffs fear that the wolf management plans in Montana and Idaho do not adequately protect the delisted wolves, though both states assured the judge that their states? laws and regulations require them to manage viable wolf populations. Wolf hunts were held in both states last year. Seventy-three wolves were killed in Montana, and 185 were killed in Idaho.

The conservation groups also argued the size of the gray wolf population is not large enough to allow for sustainable population growth, claiming that in order for the species to maintain genetic diversity, the population must reach at least 2,000 animals. Federal guidelines require 15 breeding pairs and 150 wolves in each state.

There are about 1,700 gray wolves in the Rocky Mountain region, including at least 843 wolves in Idaho, 524 in Montana and 320 in Wyoming.

?By every biological measure, the region?s gray wolf population is fully recovered,? an April U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service report said. Conservation groups disagree.

?We hope the wolves in Idaho and Montana will be returned to the endangered species list, the recovery plan for the northern Rocky Mountain wolves is re-examined and a new recovery plan that ensures the recovery of wolves over the long term is created,? said Natural Resources Defense Council representative Matt Skoglund.

Federal lawyers argued that because a significant portion of the Rocky Mountain gray wolf population inhabits Wyoming, the partial delisting is justified. Without federal protection, the killing of gray wolves would be legal throughout most of the state.

The Wyoming wolf management plan designates nearly 90 percent of the state a ?predator zone? in which gray wolves can be shot on sight without a license anytime of the year.

The population is one of the most well-studied and best-understood in the world, and the conclusion 15 years after reintroduction is that wolves will be continue to survive under state management, Eitel told Molloy.

Others, including Bob Wharff, executive director of the Wyoming chapter of Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, argue that individual states should be given the responsibility of managing wildlife within their borders. Wharff, however, does not believe this will be the outcome of this lawsuit.

?It's a tragedy that Idaho and Montana will lose the opportunity to manage the wildlife as they see fit,? he said. ?But in part, it's their fault for being so critical of Wyoming?s management plan. As a whole, we all lose when we have a species listed when that listing isn't warranted.?

A similar lawsuit is under way in Wyoming. Arguments were heard by U.S. District Judge Alan B. Johnson in federal court in Cheyenne on Jan. 29 to address the state of Wyoming?s request that Fish and Wildlife accept the state?s management plan. A decision from Johnson is pending.
 
"Conservation Groups" is an oxymoron for these people. They want all the elk and deer in the bellies of wolves and not us hunters. As long as they can stop hunters from hunting, they are happy. The only true Conservation Groups are us hunters. I really wish they would STOP calling these groups Conservationists. Call them what they are Anti-Wildlife Groups/Anti-Hunter Groups/Anti-Wildlife Management Groups/Anti-American Groups/Anti-Reality Groups or a shorter title.... The Group of Idiots.



HK
 
On the contrary, my friend!
Don't say good by to wolf hunting, because it will become wolf killing!!!
The ranchers and hunters will not tolerate it!
 
i totally agree nick. they gave us a hunt....if they take it away, it will just cause people to completely give up on the system and take matters into their own hands....even more than now!
 
maybe i dont understand it, someone help me out.

the argument they are shooting for is that if wolves are federally protected you cannot say this state can hunt and this one cant? is that the argument?

If so, how does alaska get away with it. Maybe im not understanding the argument.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Pack Dealer
 
Orion23, YOU, my friend may be in line for an appointment to the the Supreme Court!
WHO would have ever thought?
It is so damn simple, that the solution sets right in front of every person with common sense!
Unfortunately, the idiots in charge have no common sense!

+1 Orion
 
Travis,

My impression of their argument is that the reintroduced group of wolves in ID, MT, WY are all part of one regional population, and that they can't be protected in one state while hunting is allowed in the others. However, I think that argument is flawed because neighboring states manage other big game differently for the same "regional populations" (deer and elk come to mind). Maybe our deer and elk aren't endangered (yet), but the anti's seem to be arguing against sound, fundamental game management. Just my two cents.
 
The judge said that the arguements made sense in every other way except legal, so I assume they are arguing about language within the Federal Endangered Species Act where again "I assume" it say the species is either listed or not listed. I also assume there is some language about the biological definition of a species, that likely seperates wolves in Wyo/Ida/Mont from those in Alaska or Minnesota. Likewise I assume if the Tule Elk in Calif was put on the endangered list that wouldn't likely effect Rockly Mtn Elk. Again these are assumption of what this all means not opinions.

The bottom line is that if Wyoming get's in line with Idaho and Montana this arguement goes away. I know most on this forum would prefer predator status with shoot on site for all wolves, but as we know that isn't a practical solution in this political climate, while a management plan is.
 
Ok, i can understand that.

now what i cant understand is why WY would be so stubborn? what is the rationale behind WY argument. They would rather the population grow in MT, ID and WY instead of try to manage them. I know they want the shoot on site, doesnt most everyone in the west? But why not take what you can get? They are as bad as the wolf activists... ok, almost. GET ON BOARD WY?

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Pack Dealer
 
I think I have to disagree. Kudos to Wyoming for having the intestinal fortitude to stand up and do the right thing and fight the Guvment. If the other states would have done this in the first place we wouldn't be having this arguement. The local agencies knew where the release sights were. All they needed to do was wait for the release with a 12 ga.What would they have done ? take away our birthdays? BTW who the hell are they anyway?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-10 AT 07:50PM (MST)[p]Yeah, in the beginning....MAYBE....and its fine to stand up to them if it only affects your own state. This is no longer the beginning and they are starting to get out of hand. how many more years can we not hunt / control them? how low do the numbers of elk and moose really need to be. I think if we play their game and just manage them like they want, down the road it will be shoot on site like with coyotes. Idaho just proved last year that we cant kill them all.

even if we cant kill them all at least they are off the list and not Gov. protected.

And honestly, if we can control them, would it be that bad to have some in our state? dont get me wrong, i dont want a single wolf in any western state, but guess what. they are here to stay. lets make the best of what we have now!

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Pack Dealer
 
Orion, what would say if Wyoming wins the various cases that are currently going on within their state right now?
I'm glad that Wyoming has stood on their principals, and I am not a resident!
 
Obviously some won't be happy unless they can use spotlights from Helicopters. We couldn't even fill our quota last year, and that's after F&G expanded the season. This year all the NR's can't complain since they can punch a deer/elk tag on a Wolf without spending the extra money if they get a chance. If they choose not to punch that tag, they really can't complain.
 
They should let the NR shoot a Wolf and upon turning it in get a replacement deer or elk tag.
He'll they should have a bounty on them.
 
i would pop a wolf in a heartbeat and tag it with a deer or elk tag....unless you were on a bennet hills type of a tag, even then i most likely still would
 
Kudo's to Wyoming for maintaining its guns in the wolf fight. Bottom line, this issue won't be resolved until the US Supreme Court rules one way or another. The anti's want no hunting of wolves period. The current litigation was their best chance at stopping hunting for the time being. If hunting is or was reinstated, they'd be making some other legal argument in idiot Don Molloy's court. Then yer back to square one. If some of our state governmental leaders would've had some vision early on playing offense with the anti's, they could've filed the litigation first in less liberal courts. The push to get this to the Supreme Court should've started years before Wyoming grabbed the bull by the horns. Folks in Montana and Idaho were living in fantasy land if they believed the anti's would stand by and accept the hunting plan that was accepted by the USFWS for their states. I'd bet it'll be another 10 years before the US Supreme Court ever hears any arguments involving wolves...
 
Triple-BB I think your absolutely right. This battle is far from over and in the mean time the hunters,outfitters and game herds are going to be the one's that are going to suffer . The antis don't give a $hit they don't have a dog in this fight. They have deep pockets and nothing to lose.This isn't really about the wolves as much as it is about getting hunting rights taken away. The grizzlies will be next and boy look out then.
 
Triple-BB,

If Wyoming would have just played the game like Idaho and Montana, wolves would be de-listed in all three states, and hunters in all three states would be killing wolves now. The current lawsuit would not exist if it wasn't for the hard-headed, "screw you" attitude of the Wyoming legislature. Now their decision not to play will likely put wolves in Idaho and Montana back on the "list". Other lawsuits would no doubt be filed, but the current one will likely win on legal grounds because the Feds carved out Wyoming to de-list in ID and MT.

The Civil War taught us that States cannot win the battle against the Feds. We must do the best to play the system we live within.

UGA
 
Wyoming is playing the right game imo. Idaho and Montana gave in. And because they gave in there will now be more wolves in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming because of it.
 
Right on Tagsoup!
There is no way to appease these enviro wackos. There is never too many wolves, just guns and hunters! As we set here, they are now wanting to expand the wolves throughout the entire WEST.

Wyoming has drawn a line in the sand and I hope they stick to their guns, so to speak!! If they win, we all win!
 
I'll predict what will happen:

Judge (Dictator)Malloy will rule the delising illegal, and restore protection to the wolves. It will take at least two years to get the protection removed again (if Wyoming can come up with some acceptable management plan, not just "kill them all!") Anyone want to estimate the wolf population (2200 wolves now plus two years worth of pups) after another two-year cycle trying to remove protection? I'll guess 4000 wolves...that is a lot of dead elk...thanks a lot Wyoming!

If WY would have simply managed wolves as game state-wide by (like ID and MT), they could have sold tags for $5 and this suit would not be happening, and a lot of WY wolves would have been killed! I cannot believe you can't see that.

I hate wolves, and what they are doing to elk herds in the west! However, we must accept they are here to stay. Get a plan that allows hunting, so we can keep the little killers in check!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-10 AT 06:06PM (MST)[p]If Wyoming would have went with ID and MT, then Wyoming would be stuck with wolves outside the park. If Wyoming gets its way there will be no wolves in Wyoming outside the park. That sounds like awhole lot better plan to me than what ID and MT have. I cannot believe you can't see that.



And I just have a hard time believing that Malloy will rule that his earlier ruling to delist wolves was illegal. I think ID and MT will keep control of wolves.
 
Malloy has never ruled in favor of delisting wolves. His first ruling a few years ago was to return protection because Wyoming did not have a satisfactory management plan. Wyoming would not cooperate with USFWS to revise their plan, so USFWS moved to delist in ID and MT, who have satisfactory plans. Malloy did not issue an injunction last fall to stop wolf hunting, but did state that the USFWS LIKELY violated the law by delisting in ID and MT, but not WY. IMO, as long as Malloy gets these cases, he will not allow delisting, he is as invro extremest friendly as they come, and WY has given him plenty of justification for his opinions.

I hope you're right about ID and MT being allowed to manage their wolves...I'm just not too optimistic.
 
>Orion!
>With that attitude, I wouldn't want
>to be in the same
>foxhole!

im not sure what you mean be that? because we would argue about wolves the whole time and you be stuck in a fox hole with me? haha

im a rational person. i dont see wolves going away sorry. i wish they would, but just dont see it. i think the best solution is to manage them.

maybe i will be wrong, but i just dont see it happening.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Pack Dealer
 
How does the saying go: "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". So approx 250 less wolves than 12 months ago in Idaho and Montana is better than what Wyoming has in my book. I certainly don't understand the guys who complain that we don't have more opportunity, when we can't take full advantage of the opportunity that we have. We left almost 20% of our quota on the table here in Idaho.

Last year before the hunt started it was my hope that one of the biggest benefits that this hunt would have outside the obvious reduction in numbers of wolves killing deer/elk, would be that the intelligent wolves would learn to avoid areas those hunting them frequent and push them farther back into the back country, leaving pockets for the elk to feel safer. I will report in my usual summer trips to McCall, The middle fork of the Boise in 39, and on the Boise Ridge where I ALWAYS saw wolf tracks/sign the last 2 years I did not see one wolf track or hear one howl. I'm not saying there gone, but there sure aren't as evident.

I'm a realist so I hope we can find a way to get the hunt back on, get F&G to allow the improvements they are discussing: Electronic Calls, NR use of their deer/elk tags, and trapping so we can hopefully kill at least another 200 or more wolves this season.
 
I am a Wyoming resident and suport its stand against the federal government and the anti's dont lump the two together. Just because Idaho and montana caved to the feds doesnt mean they should have. The problem is we have people who want shoot on site but dont have the balls to back it up when it comes to standing up to the feds. Most of the areas that are shoot on site in Wyoming connot support long term wolf population so why get the population started in those areas in the first place? When is enough enough When Colorado and Utah have so many wolves they cant support hunting. This spring my Dad watched a single wolf down by Mountain Home Idaho hanging out by a herd of antelope. Probably waiting for them to calve(2 for the price of one). In the mean while it will be up to hunters and ranchers to keep the population of wolves under control and hopfully the local state inforcment will look the other way here in Wyoming.
 
So what is you opinion of Malloy now, UGAhunter?
He just signed the death warrant on thousands of elk and other wildlife!
Sleep good tonight!
 
>So what is you opinion of
>Malloy now, UGAhunter?
>He just signed the death warrant
>on thousands of elk and
>other wildlife!
>Sleep good tonight!
Dude, you don't know what your talking about. UGAhunter was right. He said Malloy would do what he did. Thanks Wyoming, your ineptitude is costing Idaho and Montana alot of game animals. We were able to kill 200 wolves last year, Wyoming 0.
 
What is your stand NickW? i cant figure it out from your posts?

are you still happy that WY is standing their ground even if another 3,4 maybe even 5 years go buy before another one can be legally killed?

Reading my post i know that its going to come across wrong and argumentative but im really just wondering what your thoughts are now with the ruling?

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com
Blacks-Creek Pack Dealer
 
UGAhunter! I apologize for my above post! I know you do not support the Judge. I was rude!

Orion, I still believe that Wyoming had the right to take the stand that they did! Anytime a state or states stands up to the federal government, over what is deemed a STATE problem, best handled internally, by the state or states, I will always support the state vs the feds. Kinda like Arizona is going through now. Ariz. doesn't want to be like California, New York, or Illinois! They want illegal immigration halted now. THAT responsibility does lie with the feds, who are severely lacking in taking any strong action. Arizona was forced to do what they felt they had to do! Wyoming did what it felt it had to do!
 
Wow ... I never thought I would say this about anyone with the handle UGA, but UGAHUNTER that was well said. I believe you are absoultely right.

This is being viewed as a regional issue and as a result needs a regional solution. WY went all wild west with their "management plan" and cost ID and MT their opportunity to manage and hunt wolves based on sound science and rational thought. Hopefully, ID and MT are working with anyone with sense in WY for a regional solution, so we can undo the damage that WY just did and get back to managing the wolf poplutions for the betterment of our state and game herds.

NickW/Tagsoup - I think both of you are very shortsighted. I think you need to take a stepback and look at the big picture. We had management plans and hunting seasons for wolves in ID/MT and now there gone. You two seem to be saying ... I want all or nothing ... becareful because sometimes you end up with nothing!

One final point, there is no doubt that wolves have had an impact on deer and elk (although I question the magnitude of that impact based on some of what I have read here), but so has ... poaching, the increase in hunting pressure, the increase in use of atvs, vehicle collisons with deer and elk, bad weather and the destruction of winter range and general habitat. Don't think for a minute that the wolf is a silver bullet, that once controlled will pave the way for the good old days to come roaring back. Our problems are much bigger than that.
 
No you need to look at the big picture. It's up to Wyoming on how there going to manage wolves. Not Idaho and Montana. I no your mad that there will be no hunting season in Idaho this year. But don't be mad at Wyoming because of it. When Wyoming gets there management plan approved. They will have the better management. And Idaho and Montana can go have there hunting season that makes everyone feel better, but does little or nothing to manage wolves.
 
Two wolf release sites, (that the Feds will admit to), In Yellowstone National Park, entirely within the state of Wyoming! The other was at Corn Creek, on the main Salmon River, north of Salmon, Idaho, in, or close to the Frank Church Wilderness Area, U.S. National Forest land.
Did the State of Idaho have any say on the release at Corn Creek? Did Wyoming have any say about the release in Yellowstone? I doubt that either state had a say in the matter, because there was no say allowed by the Feds!
Wyoming wants the wolves to stay in the Park and the Feds knew that was never going to be a possibility. Idaho didn't have to worry about where their transplants were going to go, because they knew!....Every where!......and Montana? They knew they were dead meat!
What I'm trying to say, is that these three states didn't have any say in the matter! Wyoming decided to take a stand and after the initial delisting was allowed and they were shooting wolves, the Feds and their pocket enviros, couldn't handle that and filed suit with their friendly judge in Missoula, Mt. and stopped wolf hunting in Wyoming. The state of Wyoming then filed a lawsuit of their own to have their concerns heard! That suit is going thru a different federal court system. This will probably end up being settled at the top of the federal court system, but at least it is being heard, by a different judge.
I say good for Wyoming, good for Arizona and good for any other state that can see that more and more federal intervention within their respective states is not necessarily a good thing!
Somebody has to say enough is enough!
 
In terms of Elk and elk hunting, yup....wolves are the silver bullet/smoking gun. Thats pretty much the end of the discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Elk hunting in Idaho was freakin fantastic for years just prior to the wolves. As the wolves have flourished, the elk have dwindled. Point blank, get rid of the wolves and you'll get your elk back.............simple as that.


the artist formerly known as "gemstatejake".
 
Tagsoup, I'm not mad that there will be no hunting season this year ... what I am afraid of is Wyoming may have just ended the hunting season on wolves for everyone for years into the future with their screw the feds attitude.

However, let's say they win and are allowed to shoot wolves whenever, where ever they want and they get their goal of eliminating wolves in WY (outside the park) and lets say you get your way and we can wholesale shoot wolves here in ID and MT. How long do you think it will be until the Feds step back in a relist the wolf as endangered? Then what???

My opinion (and it's just that ... an opinion) is the wolf management plan we had was a good first step. We needed to build on it and use science and facts to build a case for more liberal seasons and quotas. I know it doesn't strike the kill'em all and let god sort'em out mentality group as the proper approach, but we had control of the management plan until WY had to make a political statement. Now we don't know what the future of wolf hunting will be or if it will be at all and I do blame WY for that. All they had to do was put out a reasonable plan (like ID and MT) and all would be good, but they had to try and stick their thub in the eye of the Feds and now as of today no more wolf hunting in ID and MT.
 

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