Resident PP system all tags...

elks96

elks96

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So this last weekend I spent chasing coyotes around Baggs. On Saturday night I ran into Larry Hicks at the Drifters Bar. I brought up my concern with PP systems and how I believe that WY current resident system is far better than most if not all other western states.

Long story short he claimed that over 80% of WY residents supported the move.

When I mentioned PP creep, and my experience as a resident hunter in CO, he simply said that WY is different and can't be compared to any other state. He is convinced that the system is truly needed.

He also stated that it would not have any effect at all on over 90% of the hunters since there are still general tags and it really would not change that at all. Of course when I brought up the eventual move that general tags would someday be limited quota he scoffed etc.

I would hate to see you all loose your current system to a PP system. I do not see how this would be good at all for the residents.

While I appreciate his time and willingness to visit with me, I believe that he is working under his own agenda on this and for a select small group of the people whom he was elected to represent. The whole conversation left me wondering how much he actually knew about WY (stated there are only 2-3 tags with less than 10% odds in the state and on the flip side then mentioning we need to have the PP systems so that people can draw those tags).

Just my thoughts, having seen the way the CO systems has evolved I am hoping that WY can manage to avoid this issue all together.
 
So has he or anyone else introduced a Resident PP System Bill for deer, elk, and antelope in the Legisature that just got started for the year?
 
>So has he or anyone else
>introduced a Resident PP System
>Bill for deer, elk, and
>antelope in the Legisature that
>just got started for the
>year?

Yes. SF0085. 80% of residents support PP's? BULLSCHIZ!
 
Yes and I believe that last year same thing was introduced and shot down... The real issue I had was that he assumed that WY will always have general tags. Thus the PP system would be good since people will still be able to hunt. When I brought up that they are already breaking up general units into limited quota, he just scoffed. I do not foresee WY resident system being able to sustain general tags for much longer. they have responded to declining deer numbers by shortening the seasons, but at some point a 1 day deer season does not work.

I just found the whole conversation disheartening. I have seen the same system take me and my father from hunting in my state every year to now 1 in 3 years and getting worse.
 
Elks...you are spot on. 80% support from residents is not true.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
I don't know of anything that 80% of the people would agree tn when you come right down to it!!! I do think you hit the nail on the head as far as the future of general tags the way the overall deer herd structures are going.
 
Well as one of the 80%'ers, I sent Mr. Hicks an email of support and the same to my senate representative and added in the names of four family members. Doubt it'll pass as I haven't seen the kind of support for it the bill to raise license fee's is getting, but at least its a start...
 
Good for you.... However have you ever considered why every one who moves to WY says it has the best tag system? Because eventually the PP system will limit you opportunities to hunt and will be a failure just like it is in every other state. The more that any system becomes micromanaged the worse it gets. You do not realize what you have and how awesome it is... But heck you may be happy hunting your favorite deer unit once every 10 years and your favorite elk units once every 20...
 
Wyoming has one of the worst resident draw systems and the worst non resident and resident preference point draw system, its either a pure luck system in which some people will draw every year or most years, and plenty of people who never or seldom get drawn. Or in the case of the preference point system its draconian by favoring the max point holder too heavily.

Even something like an extra ticket in the hat for next year would help the chronically unlucky and help provide a little fairness.

Most of you miss the point about opportunity, its 2013 and todays ultra hightec hunters have to be restricted in one way or the other, either by access or by restrictive quotas and seasons, or both.

In other words,too many hunters and not enough game
 
How in the world can you say that if you're talking about the resident draw for elk, deer, and antelope when you have the same chance as the next guy of getting the tag you put in for each and every year you apply? Then if it's an LQ unit and you don't draw you can still hunt any of the general hunt areas. I don't see how it can get any better than that and it's a true random system unlike these PP systems that get bogged down when tag number are cut, etc.
 
>you may be happy hunting
>your favorite deer unit once
>every 10 years and your
>favorite elk units once every
>20...

That's almost comical. I've never drawn any of my favorite deer areas; 34, 87, 89, 90. Last time I hunted any of them was when they were still general license areas back in the 80's. I've only drawn one high demand elk tag in my life. Guess I won't be too much worse off will I...
 
you will be once the system gets so far evolved that new hunters are looking at 25+ years to even be in the running for a tag. The very best you could hope for is a bonus point system that requires successful applicants to wait a period of years before being able to apply again. Instead the PP will become filled with more people who just bank points build and build. As it stands right now, if Colorado leaves thing as they are, my daughter who is 6 will be looking at a 27 year wait just to draw the tag when she is first eligible to apply. During her 27 year points building it would grow another 7-10 points. At best case scenario she will draw a tag when she becomes 49 years old. That is a great system.

Go for it and learn what every other state has learned... It sucks.
 
Depending on how many residents are in the max point pools and assuming you continue putting in for the highest demand areas...you may still never draw.

You wont live long enough...but at least you'll die with a bunch of bonus points.

I've put in for one of your deer areas one time...and drew it.
 
Hey you two residents that think the PP system is so great! Take a look at the odds for NR deer unit 90 that was just mentioned. Guys with 6 max points in the regular draw last year had a 17% chance at those few tags and a not better chance of only 20% in the higher priced Secial draw. Now tell me that's going to do you any good if you go that route as a Resident when you have the same chance of drawing it every year as anyone else the way your system is now!
 
Topgun- Compared to preference point systems a pure random draw will produce more people who draw year after year and more who don't draw year after year, and that fact is why most point systems were created.

I know that it sounds like a random draw is totally fair, everyone has the same chance is the saying and I guess in theory that's true, but the reality of it is different.

I grew up in Nevada, they started using a lottery system for deer and big game years before the other western states did.
I remember buying a deer tag in the drug store, good for either sex, resident or nonresident it didn't matter. Things change, and they still are.

It was a matter of access ,numbers of animals, demand, quality of the animals and the hunt itself, nothing new, all states have gone through and are still going through the same things.
Wyoming challenges have come later than most because of human population, geography and a few other things, nothing new here.

Nevada started out with a pure random draw, after some years they went to an extra point for every year someone didn't draw, they did that not to raise money (because it didn't) but to help those unlucky folks who never seem to draw a tag and don't get to go hunting.
Years later they started squaring points to furthermore help the unlucky hunters who were still putting in year after year and couldn't ever get to hunt.

I guess its all in how you view fairness, either the theory of it or the reality of it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-13 AT 09:41PM (MST)[p]I grew up in Wyo and was pretty excited when I moved out of state because I started drawing tags. I only drew 1 limited elk tag in about 15 years of applying as a res. As a nonres with pref pts I have drawn 3 fairly tough to draw elk tags, 2 deer tags, and antelope tags just about every year!

The fact is: High demand species and units will remain extremely difficult to draw with any draw system. The Wyo sheep draw is a perfect example of this.

Would a pref pt system work for Wyo res antelope, deer, and most elk units...heck yes!!! The draw odds are close to 30 to 50% in the toughest antelope units in the state and there is always the chance of drawing a tag in the random draw every year! There are so many 2nd choice tag options for antelope there is no reason Wyo res shouldn't draw super antelope tags every year.

With the current system some hunters will continue to draw several super deer, elk, and antelope tags in a row while others may never draw. Do you think someone that has drawn a tag should go to the end of the line...I guess I'll leave that up to you! Do you get mad when you hear your neighbor drew another tag that you have never drawn? Do you want a better chance to draw all but the toughest units in the state...these are all options with a well thought out point system.

I'm now a Colo res and actually like our current system. For those that like to elk hunt every year it is possible to purchase OTC tags. If hunters prefer to sit back and watch point creep...that is up to them. The fact is, there are lots and lots of hunt options in Colo that allow a person to draw great tags every year or 2. Yes it is tough to draw the best elk unit in Colo but that can be expected with any sort of draw system that hands out only a handful of tags!

I have a feeling as Wyo continues to grow the quality of bucks and bulls in "general" units will continue to deteriorate plus the quality of experience will also continue to drop. Take it from me,,,general elk units in Colo with loads of hunters vying for a few spike to raghorn bulls is a scarey place to be!

If Wyo is smart they will look around at neighboring states and take full advantage of each state's success and failures!
 
No the reason why PP was implemented in Colorado was not about draws but a result of greedy putfitters who wanted to "get predictability" in the system.

I disagree entirely with the idea that CO is better. CO sucks... The only thing going for the CO system is the OTC elk units. But WY does not have the elk herd to handle this sort of ssytem and as a result it will be different...
 
Several things. Many people get stuck in no mans land. People see a point value and think hey I can wait that long and by the time they get there it is further out. Tags that used to be drawn every year are up to every 3 years. I started 14 years ago to draw a tag that was taking 14 points. Now I am at 14 points and the tag now takes 20 points.

The real issue is that there is nothing to prevent people from just building and inflating the system. For elk people can build a crap load of points with out making any real sacrifice. So you see the situaitons we have. All good quality untis take 10+ years to draw.

I have seen my hutning area that I grew up in go from every year to every 3 year draw. I have seen people who simply look at the PP required and determine if the place is worthy of hunting etc. I started years ago saving points for my deer tag and at the time it took 6 points, I now have 8 and it is taking at least 10.

I really feel that when you add PP there is an artificial inflation in the perception of that tag. The system also sets things up for micromanagement of the units. Depending on the unit manager tags numbers can change greatly. I do not like that now I can hunt WY as a NR and expect to hunt as often for better quality animals assuming I hunt hard enough.

If you PP make sure that any tag a person gets cost them to give up something. Otherwise the system fails and you will have a situation like CO and you will see build points for ever and still hunt. Thus making people who are truly dedicated to hatd core hunting wait for ever. I had good friends who took over 20 years to draw a bull tag where all 3 killed thier 1sr bulls as teenagers. That is the problem.
 
Biggest problem with your assumptions are that WY would have a pure points system. There's nothing in the bill that details what the system would be. I know the G&F is aware of the downfalls of a pure points system and I think the commissioners would explore PP options. I'd take a Nevada type system in a heart beat. Is it perfect, no. Could it be modified, yep, make a portion of the tags random draw. Is it better than our crap system, I think so...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-13 AT 10:14PM (MST)[p]Myself and a couple friends have been hunting Colorado deer every three or four years since the early nineties, I like the system in this case, We pretty well know when were going to draw a tag, and the hunt quality is much better than I experience in Wyoming.

On the other hand there is Colorado elk, A friend and I saved up 2 points and drew 61 early rifle, saved up two more points and drew again, that last hunt was 14 years ago, I have been saving points ever since, I have 14 points and it now takes 17 or 18 points to draw that hunt and it gets worse every year, talk about point creep!

I attribute that to the fact that Colorado has OTC elk tags and so few quality limited entry areas,
 
elks96, I understand your frustration! It takes longer to draw quality tags in just about every Western State. That is pretty much a sign of the times no matter if there is a pref pt system or not. I agree it is frustrating in CO that only applicants with max pts draw tags. Colo could improve on that fact. Wyo and UT were pretty smart and divided tags into random and pref pt pools which definitely helps. Everyone has a chance to draw while those with pref pts have a better chance of drawing. I personally like NV's bonus pt system a lot but it is nice to have a feel for when you will draw what tag.

There are actually some pretty good elk options in Colo that only take a handful of pts if you are willing to do some research and hunt super hard! I really think there are ways Colo could improve upon pt creep..especially for elk but it would be somewhat bitter-sweet. If all units were a draw rather than OTC there would be a lot more elk hunters that would be burning rather than accumulating pref pts! Obviously there is a downside to this...possibly not hunting every year!

I was pretty excited when Colo switched over to all draw units rather than general for deer. Not only did buck quality improve but the CDOW could actually manage herd and hunter numbers. Obviously with several bad winterkills in a row deer tag numbers have currently dropped to 10 to 15 year lows and there are a fraction of deer and tags that once were available. Obviously this means tag demand is at all-time highs right now. Even with low tag numbers there are fantastic muley units available that only take a few pts to draw!
 
>Biggest problem with your assumptions are
>that WY would have a
>pure points system. There's
>nothing in the bill that
>details what the system would
>be. I know the
>G&F is aware of the
>downfalls of a pure points
>system and I think the
>commissioners would explore PP options.
> I'd take a Nevada
>type system in a heart
>beat. Is it perfect,
>no. Could it be
>modified, yep, make a portion
>of the tags random draw.
> Is it better than
>our crap system, I think
>so...

So your in support of a system that is not truly defined? While I would think that there is some sort of compromise, I would urge everyone to think on this issue and see what you want. Realize that when you go to points you will get the tags you want 1 time maybe 2 times if your lucky in your life time. Also realize that going down this route will eventually place more pressure on OTC/general units thus decreasing quality in those units, etc. I know several people who have moved to WY in the last 10 years. Every single one of them prefers the system over where they came from. For a reason.
 
I believe that I understand all of the above mentioned points. But for all of the Non-Residents out there, answer one question for me. Of those of you that have been putting in for NR tags in Wyoming since the point system was enacted for NR's how many tags have you drawn in the limited quota areas?

Now let me tell you how many I have drawn. 4 Antelope, 1 Deer and 1 Elk. That is 15 years of applying as a resident. 4 antelope tags in a state with more antelope than people? I don't see a population problem there when it comes to that species. I actually got the one deer tag as a second choice when there weren't enough people for the 1st choice in the unit.

The area that I put in for 1st choice every year but didn't draw for those 15 years is now closed. I will Never draw that tag. Now would have I drawn it with points, I don't know. But I do know that there were some NRs that drew that tag more than once in the 15 years that it was available. How is that "fair" that I may never draw one of the limited areas in the state and a NR can draw them eventually?

There are a lot of systems out there and some of the repercussions of those systems due truly scare me. For example the loss of the general areas that are available now to residents if we don't draw. If we were to lose those I would choose the system we have now. I think the people in favor of the point system want the possiblity to draw that tag sometime.


Why not get rid of all of the point systems for deer, elk and antelope and leave it up to total random drawing for everyone? Say give everyone that has points 2 or 3 years to use or lose their current points then everyone has the same chance. Still leave the ratio of tags the same for R/NR and let the chips fall where they will.

I'm sure that there would be complications for that too; but I'm no statistician or do I know everyone's concerns. I just know my own side of the argument and I personally am still in the middle. Waiting on more information.

PY
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-13 AT 10:02AM (MST)[p]I've drawn 1st choice tags with PPs for antelope two different times in the 7 years since they started the NR system and they were for the same unit. The first time was by having the necessary 3 PPs and last year by having 1 PP and partying with an Idaho resident who had 4 PPs. We drew the last tags offered in the regular PP draw with our 2.5 PP average. All three residents I know out there drew that unit again in their random draw, which normally runs over 80% draw for them. The real bummer is all the people who save a huge number of PPs trying to draw those almost impossible units that are touted as "the best of the best" and that don't have many tags issued. I would love it if they did what you said and gave us two or three years to use our PPs and go to an all random draw again. It might require some refunds if people tried and didn't draw before the timeline, but I think that could be worked out. I doubt our NR system will change though. It's funny the way things go because my Wyoming buddy puts in for a fairly decent LQ deer unit every year and draws it 2 out of every 3 times in the random draw. I have 4 PPs for deer and will start putting in for that unit this year, but it will probably take 5 or 6 PPs to get the tag unless I'm real lucky and people drop out of the race. That is exactly the opposite of what you mentioned in the NR drawing and you not drawing in a particular unit, so it can go both ways.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-13 AT 12:45PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-13 AT 12:37?PM (MST)




I apply in a multitude of states like a lot of guys, all with a different system.
OR, WY, UT, NM, and AZ.
The fairest can also be the most difficult to draw in, like NM.
In every state mentioned but NM, an applicant will eventually draw because they hold out a % of the tags for the max point pool. It may take you 200 years to be "that guy", but "eventually" you'll draw if you live long enough.
WY has a decent NR draw because EVERY APP is in the PP draw and every app remaining after that PP draw is in the Random draw.
Oregon and Arizona do not have zero point applicants in the PP draw.

If I had a say, I would adopt the WY NR Deer/Elk draw but use Bonus points rather than preference points. That way you have a weighted chance in both PP and Random draws.

A point system does have problems though, just because of when you get in, you may/will be relegated to a limited set of hunts.
 
I attended the G&F meeting in Green River last night.G&F wanted us to submit our ideas about the upcoming hunting seasons.I'm guessing there were probably 25-30 people in attendance.After everyone's suggestions were taken,we broke down into an informal discussion about many things,one of which was this PP bill that is presently in committee.

One of the G&F employees had made a spread sheet of how PP's would affect draw odds for the local deer,elk,and antelope units in sw Wy.As most of you know,these units are among the most highly sought after units in the state.Bear in mind that this information is based on present day odds;and using the present 75%-25% split of highest point holders vs random draw.

Unit 102 deer had draw odds of 7.5% in 2012.If the number of applicants remains the same(which it won't if a PP system is enacted-it'll go up in theory),it would take 18 years to be assured of a tag.Unit 101 would take 25 years.

Elk area 31 would take 25 years,and areas 30 and 100 would each take 29 yrs to draw.

Of course,antelope units would have better odds because they are all LQ.

I'm not one of the "lucky" guys that draw tags.But this system sucks.I'll take our present system over this crap,even with my lousy luck.

The only way this system would ever work would be if the entire state went LQ for elk and deer like we have for antelope,thus spreading out all applicants.I am not advocating this,either.At least not before other hunter-control measures have been tried.

At 61 years of age,I don't have too many seasons ahead of me.Pretty sure I won't be hunting when I'm 85 or 90.So basically,this proposed PP system won't help me in light of my bad luck drawing tags,at least in the units I apply for near my home of Rock Springs(unless my luck changes!).

If it takes me upwards of 30 years to draw one of these coveted units,how long will it take a kid that's 8 yrs old right now??This PP system as proposed is not the answer.
 
I disagree completely with going back to a randomn draw for non-residents. If they did the draw quickly, maybe, but when you have to wait for 3.5 months until July to find out if you drew an antelope tag, I would much much rather know what my odds of drawing that tag were so I could plan for the hunt.

Can't say what is best for residents, you all decide that, but for non-residents I think preference points are best for me.
 
nripepi---Why would having the draw quicker have anything to do with whether the system is random only or PP based? I do agree that if they can do the elk draw as quick as they do that in this age of the computer they should have a shorter application time frame for deer and antelope and have the results out a lot sooner. It might mean that they would have to guess and cut some tags due to a fear of winterkill or something , but I don't think that would be that big of a deal. IMO they could easily have the deer/antelope cutoff date on 2/15 and the results of the draw out by 4/1 or even 5/1 if there are time delays that they have that we don't know about.
 
Got a response back from my senate representative. Said he has received a number of emails from constituents supporting its passage and he's in favor of it. I also wrote senate rep Hicks and said thanks.
 
So does the G&F have any input into what they think the proposal would do to help or harm things or are they at the mercy of what the Legislature wants and approves?
 
Like I said its either the draconian 75% to the top preference point holders, or its the somewhat unfair and sucky purely random draw.
Its too bad people are so polarized because there are a bunch of good choices in between.
 
For the life of me I just can't understand how anybody can say that a totally random system like Wyoming now has for resident deer, antelope, and elk is unfair. It sounds to me like the ones complaining are ones who continually apply for units where the odds suck hind teat and for them the odds will be no better under a PP system. Why not apply for places that have a decent chance of getting a tag and be happy! I haven't killed a deer out there that will go over the 150s and I'm happier than a pig in slop just to get out and see the animals, scenery and what God gave all of us to enjoy. I would suggest that maybe a few more people need to look at the outdoors that way!
 
I agree,Piper.It seems like our legislators are stuck in the PP or nothing mode.I would be in favor of a Nevada style bonus point system more so than this crap they are proposing.

TOPGUN-Your biggest problem is that you think everyone should think the same way you do.It's great that you are happy with a 150 class buck.Many of us are not.That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the hunt,it just means we have higher standards.Also,we have the added luxury of being able to purchase deer and elk tags OTC.

As I said before,a PP or bonus point system will only work well in Wy if the entire state was LQ.This PP system will not "fix" anything.
 
I will try and explain it one more time.
A pure random draw means that the drawn for tags will not go to as many different hunters as one with some sort of preference point system, its just the way it works.

Some people like myself believe that this finite publicly owned resource should be shared as equally as possible, (within reason of course)

It has nothing to do with good areas or bad areas, easy or hard, it has to more to do with setting up a system that allows for a more equitable sharing of that wonderful god given opportunity you speak of.

With a random draw more of the same people put in year after year and don't draw a tag, and then others draw every year, that's just the way Las Vegas luck works.
A modest preference point system spreads the luck out a little, it lets a larger group of applicants share the resource, I say that should be a good thing to work towards, not a bad thing.
 
nontypical---Do you not think that most people want others to think like they do, at least on certain things? I'm not saying that others don't appreciate the hunt, but why is it that it seems that I read so many people thinking they have to kill a giant to be happy! I see people coming on here wanting to take their kid out on his first hunt to kill the biggest animal in the woods, instead of teaching him what itshould really be all about. I'd love to kill a 180+ buck and if it happens some day, then fantastic. If it doesn't, I'll still greatly appreciate what God gave me until I take my final breath. I do agree with your last comment on a PP system only working if it's 100% LQ and you can bet your rear that isn't in the present equation, but may be made necessary if they pass a PP system. Even then I think people will find they are going to be waiting a long time for those "great" units just like they are now.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-13 AT 07:54PM (MST)[p]You can try to explain your version of it all you want, but the math involved says you're wrong and that random means everyone has a chance every year. If a guy is "unlucky" is one thing, but he still has the same chance mathematically no matter how you put it when he and all the others have one chip in the hat.

Definition of random (adj)
ran?dom
1.without pattern: done, chosen, or occurring without an identifiable pattern, plan, system, or connection
2.lacking regularity: with a pattern or in sizes that are not uniform or regular
3.equally likely: relating or belonging to a set in which all the members have the same probability of occurrence
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-13 AT 10:10PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-13 AT 09:45?PM (MST)

that's the theory, and it sounds good, but the reality of it is different.
That's why most states have point systems in their drawings, its really not hard to understand.

500 people apply for 250 tags one year, half are drawn, half are not. The 250 who are unsuccessful are then given an extra number the next year, they then have two numbers and have twice the chance to draw as the 250 who were successful the previous year and only have one number.
Compared to pure random draw, that system assures a greater number of different people will go hunting during that two year period, and that means tag distribution will be more equitable.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-13 AT 09:57PM (MST)[p]Wyoming has PPs for the money so people will get hooked and keep applying IMHO, but whatever happens in this resident deal, you're the one who will have to live with it and probably learn the hard way. I'm going to ask an honest question here in case somebody knows because I don't. Who made the push for the NR PP system that was started 7 years ago?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-13 AT 00:40AM (MST)[p]A Bonus Point system, as Piper described is the most "equitable" if a state feels the need to have a point system. No matter which system is adopted, there will more than likely be a set aside for the max pool.
 
piper---I can't argue with that last post you made and I'd agree with that and the comment by WapitiBob. However, that is not the random system we have been dicussing that is now in existence. Does anyone know if this Bill that passed committee has anything in it other than to create a PP system for the residents or will that be worked out like they usually are by rules and regulations that will be promulgated under the Bill if it passes?
 
T-gun, according to the state website, the proposed legislation has amendments from the committee, but the amendments have not been released yet. Looks like the Bill is on the docket for later today if they follow the order they're listed. See 2nd page of todays calendar: http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2013/Calendar/scalSeventh.htm
So, they may not get to it today.

I'd bet the ranch that any new system would mirror the existing PP systems so they wouldn't have to change any computer codes. 75% to top PP holders & 25% random draw. The system would be established in rules & regs by the Commission as stated in section (g) of the bill. http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2013/Bills/SF0085.pdf
 
>piper---I can't argue with that last
>post you made and I'd
>agree with that and the
>comment by WapitiBob. However,
>that is not the random
>system we have been dicussing
>that is now in existence.
> Does anyone know if
>this Bill that passed committee
>has anything in it other
>than to create a PP
>system for the residents or
>will that be worked out
>like they usually are by
>rules and regulations that will
>be promulgated under the Bill
>if it passes?

I have asked the same thing... I can find no details at all other than create a PP system. I believe everyone is very foolish if they believe that the PP system is going to get them more tags. It simply does not work that way. The random draw is the most fair system, it puts every single person on a level playing field. In a PP system you get stuck and end up with no options. You end up 7 years into a tag that was supposed to take 7 years. During that time you give up other hunting opportunities and then when your finally supposed to draw you deal with creep.

Have you ever wondered why so many people are so grateful to cash in points and get out of the system? Because they suck you, get you stuck and you either throw in the towel or continue to build watching as others not committed to points get a shot.


Oh and the number of tags I have been afforded? So far I only do general deer in WY, but I have put in for 6 elk points and have not drawn my tag. Going off of the DNR stats I am looking at at least 87 more years to get others with max points out of my way. then once max pointers are gone I am looking at about a 15% draw odds. When the points system went into place the number of people applying in limited areas went up nearly 40% in some areas. Antelope I have yet to draw, but should be due soon. BTW the antelope tag I want was nearly a 50% draw under the random system!
 
Piper described a bonus point system.In a preference point system,the 250 people who drew the tag the first year would have zero chance if the same 250 who didn't draw the first year applied.This is what I don't like about a true PP system.A bonus point system still gives the "lucky" people a chance to draw,while giving the "unlucky" folks a little better chance each year.

TOPGUN-Our regional G&F director explained to us at the Monday night meeting that the PP bill would only give the G&F Commission the AUTHORITY to create a PP system.All rules and regulations would be set by them if the bill passes.Maybe if they got an earful from the public,it could change into a BP style system instead.

I used to work with one of the co-sponsors of the bill.He will be hearing from me this morning.
 
nontypical---I see when bringing up the Bill in that link that other than specifying that the PP cost for residents would be a max of $10 it's about what we both figured and that is things would be done by the G&F Commission for 2014. That's normally the way I've seen things work up here in MI when I was working in LE. If it passes, the residents better hope they can convince the Commission to go to some type of a weighted system, rather than just a straight PP system like the NRs have or I think in a few years they will be sorry as their PPs start building and they aren't drawing the "premium" tags any easier than they might right now.
 
nontypical,

You better re-read the bill that Hicks introduced...it clearly states the commission SHALL...not MAY introduce a preference point system for residents. The word "may" was struck with a line through it and the word SHALL added.

I've dealt with a chitpile of contract/MOU etc. language and when the word "may" is struck and "shall" added that leaves no room for later negotiations.

Make no mistake, if this bill passes, a point system will be required by law.

Its best to kill this ba$tard right now and circle the wagons. If residents really want a preference system other than the 75-25 split or a bonus system rather than preference, they better kill this one and rework a better bill.

The commission wont listen to sportsmen, they're controlled by the governor and legislature. We've already seen how Hicks is moving with this crap bill as well as the Encampment river sheep bill (also a joke).

It comes as no surprise to me that Hicks shows his self-serving interests and political pay-backs for his election to the State Senate. I expected much better from a guy that supposedly cares about hunting and wildlife. Sorry to say I was dead wrong.

In addition to the authority granted under
16 subsection (b) of this section, the commission may shall
2013 STATE OF WYOMING 13LSO-0149
2 SF0085
1 through rule and regulation develop and implement a
2 preference point program for resident and nonresident
3 antelope, resident and nonresident deer and resident and
4 nonresident elk licenses which are limited in quota and
5 would otherwise be issued through a random drawing.
 
BuzzH--- I didn't read into what nontypical said as not knowing that G&F will be forced to act like you stated. I think he knows that the Commission will be forced to act when the Bill says "shall", but they will have the power to do what what they want to set up the required system that the Bill mandates. That will then be the nuts and bolts of whether it just plays off what us NRs have right now, or is enacted to have a bonus, weighted system similar to what piper and WapitiBob mentioned. I would sure not argue with your statementabout who controls the Commission because in this day and age I think it's pretty well that way in all the states, which is a damn shame.
 
Buzz,

I fully agree. I would hate to see this forced into existence with out even knowing what the system may become. I have seen far to many times where people get into this mess thinking surely it won't be this or that..... But then it takes a totally different turn/direction. I would argue that if there needs to be a PP system in WY, then the legislation should clearly explain what that system will look like, what are the systems goals, etc.

In all honesty you never know what someone might come up with...
 
That's the whole problem with passing a Bill requiring an agency to do something and leaving it up to them to make the necessary rules/regulations with no stipulations as to what is expected. That's exactly what this Bill is doing with the sole exception of saying the PPs would not cost more than $10. Everything else would be fair game for what they could come up with and when it comes to politics it's generally whoever's skids get greased the most that gest their way! The best way is as you guys say and that's to stop this bill in it's tracks!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-13 AT 10:42AM (MST)[p]Heres the list you need to contact on the S06 committee...let them know how you feel.



[email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]); [email protected] ([email protected]);
In my email to them I strongly suggested they collect some data and ask Resident hunters if they even want a preference system.

If so, hunters should still have some input on what that system should look like.

Currently, its being introduced by a self-serving guy who's drawn a chitload of tags all across the country, and also receives landowner tags each year.

I'm sure Hicks is looking at this preference system as his last shot at even more tags before he's too old to hunt. He doesnt care if the legacy he leaves behind is a system where youth hunters are all but eliminated from a chance at the top tags. As long as he gets his last chance...

Selfishness is certainly the gift that keeps on giving with some...Hicks is the poster boy.
 
My letter...

Members of the Travel, Recreation, Wildlife, and Cultural Resources Committee,

I am writing this email in reference to SB SF0085, the big game preference point bill Introduced by Senator Larry Hicks.

I am in opposition to this bill.

First of all, many Resident hunters in Wyoming are not in favor of a point system and like the random draw process that is currently being utilized in Wyoming. It is hard to argue, that a random lottery is not the most fair way to distribute permits. Under the random system, every hunter has equal opportunity at the permits of their choice every single year. Nobody has an advantage over anyone else in a random drawing.

The intent of this bill is to create a "fair" system of allocating big-game tags, specifically deer, elk, and pronghorn tags. However, the only people that benefit under a preference point system are those that enter the drawing the initial year that these point systems are implemented. Those in the maximum point pools will see a benefit, those with less than maximum points will see their odds of drawing permits greatly diminished.

Currently, the Wyoming Game and Fish is spending money, time, and effort to recruit as well as maintain hunter numbers. A young hunter entering the draw 1+ years after the implemenation of a Preference Point System is facing incredibly bad, if not impossible draw odds in some of the best hunting units. I dont believe that, in a time when hunter recruitment is a priority, we create a point system that frustrates and/or eliminates them from equal opportunity at all hunting licenses.

As a hunter that participates in all types of preference systems in all the Western States, I can say that, preference point systems are a trap to hunters. They create situations of point creep, point building, etc. that actually REDUCE draw odds for even those with maximum points.

I highly encourage the Committee to not vote for this bill. It would be more prudent for the Committee to seek input from resident hunters whether they even want a preference system, or what type of system they prefer. Many states have adopted modified preference, bonus points, squaring bonus points, requiring 2-3 points, waiting periods, and even once-in-a-lifetime opportunities for the most desirable hunting permits.

There are many options that are not being explored, and I feel strongly that better legislation, based on feed-back from those being impacted (Resident hunters) is needed.

Lets revisit this with sound data at a later date rather than shove through vague and unclear Legislation that will negatively impact a majority of the hunting public. I strongly encourage the Committee to oppose SF0085.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-13 AT 11:40AM (MST)[p]"Piper described a bonus point system.In a preference point system,the 250 people who drew the tag the first year would have zero chance if the same 250 who didn't draw the first year applied.This is what I don't like about a true PP system.A bonus point system still gives the "lucky" people a chance to draw,while giving the "unlucky" folks a little better chance each year."

The above is not correct in regard to Oregon and Wyoming's "preference Point" draw process.

Every NR applicant is included in the WY nr PP draw, including those with zero points. All remaining apps from that PP draw are then in the Random draw.

Conversely, In Oregon's PP draw only those with 1 or more points are in the initial PP draw but all applicants are included in the Random draw, with the exception of those who drew in the PP draw.

If Wyoming chooses to mirror their NR Deer/Elk draw process, you could draw a hunt with zero points in the initial PP draw, although that hunt would likely be a low quality hunt.

A Bonus point system simply gives you another chance to draw a low number for each point you accrue. You then go to the draw with the lowest number.
 
My letter...

Sure I am not a resident, but someday really hope to be one... I do not know if it will matter or not but thought a little personal testimony from Colorado may help things. Really as written the bill is horrible, it does not have anything to support it and does not even outline what a system should look like. I might be in favor of a bonus point system or a system where a person who draw a less than 10% tag has to wait a set number of years to apply again, but not OK with just saying do it, and hoping it turns out OK... Here is my letter. hard to keep writing all these damn letters. Between instate tuition for illegals here, gun control, etc. It gets old.


Members of the Travel, Recreation, Wildlife, and Cultural Resources Committee,
I am writing in regards to the recently introduced SB SF0085 which is written to establish a preference points system for residents.
I am strictly opposed to this bill for many reasons.
Currently Wyoming uses a random draw process to allocate the limited quota licenses in the resident pool. As a result the current system is as fair as any system can get. In such a system some people get lucky others do not. However, everyone, even, beginning hunters, youth hunters, new residents, and the likes, all have a fair shot at the limited number of tags. It would be sad to see a system put into place that takes away the equality for youth hunters, new residents, etc.
Also, the bill simply states that a points system shall be implemented, but it really does not indicate what that system may look like at all. There are several types of systems already implemented in various states. They include a strict preference point system where only the people with the most points get a tag. A hybrid system where a percentage of tags go to the highest point holders and a small percentage of tags go to a random draw. A bonus point system where names are drawn out of the applicant pool, but for every year a person has entered the pool they get an extra name in the hat. Regardless all systems have positives and drawbacks.
All preference points systems can have negative results. Those results may include point building(building of points just because), preference point creep, fewer draw opportunities, etc. It is often found that by simply creating a points system tags receive an inflated value/perception, they are somehow better than they were prior to the points system.
Ultimately the bill as written should not be passed. It lacks the necessary research, facts, and sportsmen support. It would be a shame to mandate a system when we are not even sure what that system may look like or even if the residents of the state truly want the switch.
It is important to know I am not a resident of WY, but am a resident of CO. I do not blame you one bit if you chose to completely ignore my letter thus far and do not continue to read the rest of this letter. However, I feel it is important to share with you my experience in CO.
As a youth hunter, we never did enter into drawings. We were allowed over the counter general tags(much like the current system in WY). Each year we would wait until the week before season go grab a tag and hunt. When CO first went to the points system it was no big deal, at the time I did not hunt elk, only deer. Also the deer unit I grew up hunting was still easy to draw and a person could easily draw the tag on a 1st choice 100% of the time. When I was in College the unit we hunt switched from 0 to 1 point. Meaning every other year we could hunt our unit. No big deal until we soon got to every 3rd year. This is where it got interesting. Once our unit hit 3 points to draw it suddenly became ?popular? as a result the number of hunters applying for the tag nearly doubled the next year.
At that point I had already sacrificed hunting deer for 3 years, and one of the top deer units in the state was only taking 8 points to draw. So I decided ?what's another 5 years?? Currently I have 8 points (years) into the system. Looking at the tag which I initially started out for it will take another 2 years just to be in the running and assuming everything stays the same. However, it appears that point creep will hit again 1 time before I am able to draw. Thus my 8 years wait has turned into 11 years. Meanwhile our favorite family unit has held steady at 4 points. So here I am stuck, 3 mores years to draw or give up 4 years? worth of points and take the lesser tag?
This situation truly demonstrates the bad aspects of a point system. It is called by many hunters no mans land. No one wants to be here? It is also amazing at how many people have put in to the points system are so relieved just to cash in points. Think about 10, 15, 20+ years of playing a game. The further you get into the points game the more pressure is built. The focus of the hunt begins to shift from the pleasure of hunting, to focus on trophy size, etc. For these reason many hunters are simply relieved to cash in and get out. For many, the top tags are once in a life time tags since they will not live long enough to work back to the top of the pile. Right now if my daughter went into the points game the top units in Colorado are taking 20+ years to draw. By the time she get to 20+ it will be even worse. Even at 10% draw odds in your state she should statistically draw the same tag 3 times in the amount of time it will take her to scratch her way to the top of the pile.
For further illustration, I started putting in for archery elk 15 years ago. At the time the tag I was heading for only took 12 points. Currently the tag is now taking 18 points and by running the numbers, before I am able to draw it will be at least 20 to 21. Again stuck in the middle! Loose several years of building points on a lesser tag, or stay the course. I am stuck and many of your residents will also end up in the same situation.
This letter was meant to give you just a little insight into my experience. As a nonresident I know my information may have little sway on your opinion, but someday I may be lucky enough to no longer be a greenie, and become a resident of your great state.
Please contact me if you have any questions at all.
PS give you and your state a pat on the back for your great efforts to adopt the right wolf management plan and for having the fortitude to see it through despite all the lawsuits and opposition.
Sincerely
Robert Winn
[email protected]
(970)629-8922
 
RE: My letter...

Nice letter,BUZZ.Also,WB,you are correct.My bad for not including the random draw folks in my previous post.

I'm not a fan of this bill,and sent my message saying so to my legislators.

However,I agree with many on here that think the scales need to somehow be tipped in favor of those that rarely or never draw tags.There are many avenues that could be explored before we sell out to a PP system.
 
RE: My letter...

nontypical,

While I still maintain that a random draw is the most fair...if a majority of resident hunters really wanted a bonus point system, I could support that.

However, I totally object to any kind of preference point system.

I just know how this bill is going to go. The WYG&F will adopt the exact same preference system that the NR's are already under for elk, deer, and antelope. Which is the exact same as the resident moose and sheep preference.

Its best to stop this bill though,...no question.
 
RE: My letter...

>Nice letter,BUZZ.Also,WB,you are correct.My bad for
>not including the random draw
>folks in my previous post.
>
>
>I'm not a fan of this
>bill,and sent my message saying
>so to my legislators.
>
>However,I agree with many on here
>that think the scales need
>to somehow be tipped in
>favor of those that rarely
>or never draw tags.There are
>many avenues that could be
>explored before we sell out
>to a PP system.

I know the feeling. I have been asking for Powerball to do the same thing since I never win... LOL!

On the flip side if you get started on PP system, where is the equity for new hunters, new residents etc?

Also, currently in CO there are units taking 20+ years to draw. That really sucks and things are only getting worse...

If anything you should look for a bonus point systems that mandates once in a lifetime tags or has tags that require a period of years before a person eligible again. For example in CO we have bonus point system for moose, sheep, etc. However to get in the pool you have to have at least 3 points to start with. So if you happen to draw a tag, you have to wait 3 years before even being eligible again. On the really hard to gettags, span that out to 5 years...

Just a thought. But the current bill does not establish that system at all.
 
RE: My letter...

If Wyoming is such a great state from the "Outside" why change what is already set up? Why try to put in systems like Utah has where IT WILL TAKE A LIFE TIME to draw certain LQ hunts i.e. henry's, pauns. You get the hint. If a person really did their research you could hunt every year in Wyoming. As a resident when I there in Wyoming I hunted my favorite spots for antelope, deer and elk every year and filled my tags every year. And even drew a limtied quota draw hunt once before I left. Complaining about your own state you live in is fine. But others I don't feel is relative. Things are always better somewhere else. Granted things could be better but we have to count our blessings for what we actually have. Some states are far worse than others. Anyways I am in favor of the random draw. I have lived and currently live in a state with points and where they ran off of random draws. Both have pro's and con's. In essence it sounds like the government trying to get this freakin fiscal cliff budget. Anyways I know this comment has no value but hey its worth a try.
 
RE: My letter...

No doubt Wyomings preference point system is much worse overall than a random draw every year.
I don't know what to think about this rambling on about not drawing the most famous areas because of point systems, Maybe the reason some areas are tough to draw is because there are too many applicants for too few tags? I say that has little to do with point systems. Blame the modern world, or Garth Carter and Cabelas, that makes more sense than blaming a lottery point system.

Anyone can draw a Colorado deer tag every year if they wish to, its your choice on what areas to apply for. Does anyone really think deer hunting was better when you just went and bought a tag at the drug store? I hunted deer back then, I also hunted since the restrictions, and because of the draw its far and away better now than in the recent past. I sure can't say that about Wyoming .
 
RE: My letter...

If we retained the current random draw system, why not consider a 5 year waiting period (i.e., like sheep/moose) for some of the premium tags (late season elk/deer). And yes, I know that stirs a bit of controversy to designate what a premium tag is.
 
RE: My letter...

Limited Quota, Limited Entry all the same different wording. I am gonna snap a little here and say the hell with that premium #####!!! Whats next dedicated bullshit in Wyoming like Utah? Come on. In my personal opinion Utah has nothing to take away from and apply unless you want to send thousands of family members on a hunt.......Something could be said for amount of people that put in for a hunt but thats what is supposed to happen right? You can't expect to draw the special draw every year cause the tag numbers are not high enough. Startin to sound like Utah. They give more damn tags than anything else just to suffice the residents. Come on with this. Maybe some tweaking in Wyoming but man I sure wished I lived back in Wyoming. As a resident I loved that state and the reason why I did was because of the hunting. And the vast country it has. Each to his own.
 
RE: update

>Looks like the Res PP bill
>passed the Senate's first reading
>today.

The only thing I am seeing is it passed Committee of the Whole, and it was amended with financial information. Where are you seeing it passed 1st reading?
 
RE: My letter...

LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-13 AT 08:38PM (MST)[p]TreeEM- The vast country, the fishing, hunting and mountains are why I live in Wyoming.
Wyomings population is around .5 million people, Utah has about 2.8 million, Colorado has 4.5 million, a little difference there.
And since we are on Monster Muleys I will point out that Utah produces far more record book bulls than Wyoming, and Colorado produces more record book muleys,I wonder why?
Im not saying record book animals mean everything, but its noteworthy that these highly populated states can produce animals like that.
 
RE: My letter...

Like I stated in my letter(s) to the Wyoming state legislature...lets sit down and discuss this thing rather than jam a point system through.

The way this is being done is just wrong on so many levels its not even funny.

For starters, I think its pretty pi$$ poor to use the legislature to pass a bill the way its currenty being done. You have a supposed hunter friendly Senator, Larry Hicks, making statements that "80% of the hunters want a preference system". Really? Well, I dont know about anyone else, but I've not seen ONE shred of evidence to support that wild-a$$ed claim. Further, nobody I've talked to has been contacted by Sen. Hicks to ask them if they wanted a point system.

Even if Hicks could prove somehow that a point system was wanted...wheres the discussion on what that point system should look like?

As has been stated...should it be a true preference, bonus point, modified bonus point, waiting periods, once-in-a-lifetime?

The current bill does not address any of that, just stipulates that a "preference system MUST be implemented by the WYG&F".

That language is pretty straight forward...they arent asking for discussion of any kind on what system the Residents want. The bill is specific in demanding a PREFERENCE system.

The dumbchits that are in support of this are going to regret it if this passes, I can assure you. There will not be discussion and there will not be a chance to modify the system the WYG&F will adopt, which is going to be the exact same system that the Nonresidents have, which is also the same as the Resident moose and sheep.

I dont want to be right...yet again...but there is no question that if this bill passes, I'll be 100% right on what system is adopted.

Anyone that thinks otherwise is fooling themselves and better wake up before it happens.
 
RE: My letter...

LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-13 AT 08:48PM (MST)[p]Piper,

You're dead wrong about record quality animals, at least from the last few years. Do some research.

Montana has produced more record book bulls than any other state since 2010 and Wyoming and Utah are about dead even.

Funny that Montana has 95% of the state open to general tags with 6 week of archery and 5 weeks of rifle and is currently crushing Utah in B&C entries.

Check this out, Bigfin made this post just a few weeks ago...

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=253490
 
RE: My letter...

Everyone that I've talked to assumed that if the pp bill passes, the system will be the same as the one currently in place (including G&F staff). The G&F, like all state agencies, are under a budget crunch and won't want to spend the $$$ to change the existing computer code. I think it's a given that the system will be the same as the current one.

Have you seen House Bill 124, which allows for a one time transfer of preference points between family members.
 
RE: My letter...

LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-13 AT 09:23PM (MST)[p]Buzz- you may be right over the last couple years when it comes to elk , although I believe over the last decade or two it is different.

Time will tell if this change is due to technology or weather or what.
Its also worth noting that Colorado and Montana respectively have the two highest elk populations of any states.

Mule deer seem much more susceptible to over hunting than elk, and there is no place I know of that has OTC deer tags or high hunt pressue for muleys and doesn't see a substantial decline in age class and quality.

I am voicing my opinion against the proposed preference system, thanks for the links.
 
RE: My letter...

Piper,

Montana is very close in elk population to Oregon and Wyoming, all of which are around 120-140K.

But, I do agree with you that higher total elk numbers could be the reason for more B&C bulls in those states.

We'll see what happens with the Preference bill...
 
RE: My letter...

Teepee...start another thread on HB124, it needs to be addressed seperately.

Another good reason to not start a PP system. Like I already pointed out, those that are behind in the preference system are always looking for new and creative ways to re-work the system.

Why am I not surprised by HB124?
 
RE: My letter...

Piper- so if I undestand you right your saying the more population of people the more record book animals come out of that state????
 
Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

Here it is from the guys mouth... err email. I really just do not get how this guy functions at all...


Thank you for your thoughts, but let me address some of your points to provide some clarity. First their are to many difference between WY &CO system to even make any meaningful comparisons. It apples and oranges. On another point you are dead wrong the public opinion pools of Wy residents showed that the majority of WY residents want a preference point (PP) system, in addition Two WY based sportsmen groups testified before the senate TRW committee in favor of PP. You have also made baseless statements that youth and new comers wont ever draw. This is incorrect. 25% of the limted quota permits will be issued in the random draw. ALso with regards to youth your proposal to maintain a random only teaches our youth to gamble not hunt. As you stated people that are lucky will draw the permits. Let me point out a fact. Those huge casino's in Las Vegas were not build because most of the people are lucky. What the PP system does teach our youth is that anything in life worth having is worth working towards, persevering and saving, and they will be rewarded by being guranteed a chance to hunt some of the best units in Wy. I personnally think this is a better than teaching our youth to be gamblers. The random system is anything but fair. How is it fair that under the old random draw system we had senior citizens that had applied for moose and sheep fo 25-35 years and never drew a permit in their entire life while people like yourseld that may be relatively new comers drew one or two license in a short period of time. How could you possible consider that to be fair. Maybe self serving but certainly not fair.

Pretty clear what he wants... He also is soo full of it and himself that he thinks that WY will somehow be the only state to ever implement a points system and not have issues with creep, no mans land, etc. He believes that deer and elk drawing will mirror what the moose drawings have done etc.

He pretty much says it all in the post. But he never states what everything should be in the bill. I would be curious as to which 2 sportsman groups in WY are backing this? Is it probably SFW/MDF?

Further more how can it be good for new hunter to join a system where it is taken top point earners 10+ years to join and only have a shot at 1 to 2 left in the 25% bull crap... Not only does that not provide any meaningful odds for anyone in the pool it also furthers increases the issue of points creep as the number of licenses going to PP holders is decreased... Top units already have less than 10% odds in WY. When the same number of people apply for 25% fewer tags points creep will go up, and the odds of anyone 1 person drawing a random tag will decrease a ton...

Sorry WY, this guy just does not get it.WY is not immune to everything that has happened in all the other states. Further more he is assuming that the system will look like NR, well I went fomr having a 7% chance to draw my elk tag in WY to no(Ok less that 2% chance) since I missed a point.

God Iwish you all good luck, nothing would suck more than to move to WY after the points system is started and be stuck there like I am here in CO...
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

My response to Hicks:

Ah yes but your bill does not even state what the system should look like at all. Instead of forcing a mandate on your already stressed and money strapped department of wildlife. Why not let the DNR and sportsmen figure out what is the best direction to head. Also the 25% reserve does not mean anything when you get into top units. All it does is limit the number tags that go to top PP holders thus increasing point creep and at the same time it lures in other by providing them with the smallest amount of hope they may get lucky enough to draw the one random draw tag. Neither of which really help the overall majority get a tag any sooner. So your really saying that new hunter or youth hunter is better of in a system where it will take them over 10+ years to become a top points holder and a system where thier random odds drop considerable from that of the current system...

So I strongly encourage that you allow the DNR and the residents to sit down and have meaningful conversations about the PP system and what sort of system is in the best interest of the animals, hunters and managers. At this point when you shove new legislation down the throats of the department they will respond with simply taking the current nonresident system (which sucks worse than the random did, and the only good benefit is that you now have a bunch of us NR hunters strapped over a barrell) and making it across the board.

Already I can see where your system is headed towards failure and doom. THis is by allowing the transfer of points between family members... Once a point system is set up there is always people trying to find ways to adjust/cheat it. Why does that occur? Because they suck!

Thanks again for hearing me out. I am concerned as someday I hope to be in WY with my family and hopefully my daughter will have the chance at a tag as everyone else and not have to wait to get that tag until I am too old to enjoy the hills with her...
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

elk96,

Even better is that Hicks is also behind HB124, the transfer of preference points to family members.

I would bet money that he has some family with sheep and moose pionts that he'll snag if HB 124 passes. I know he's already hunted both and wants another chance before he's too old.

Hicks is a self-serving and greedy S.O.B. plain and simple. He'll know that first thing tomorrow A.M.

I'm heading to Cheyenne when 124 is heard in Committee, its not listed yet, but will let you know when it is.
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

"How is it fair that under the old random draw system we had senior citizens that had applied for moose and sheep fo 25-35 years and never drew a permit in their entire life while people like yourseld that may be relatively new comers drew one or two license in a short period of time. How could you possible consider that to be fair. Maybe self serving but certainly not fair."

I mentioned "entitlement" generally accompanying points systems in an earlier post but removed it. You can plainly see Hicks believes some are "entitled" above others. I also see we need to define "fair". Is a 25-35 year wait too long to be "fair"? How about 10 years?
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

Non resident here, 59 years old with 2 Wyoming elk points.
And your first thought is...he's no threat to ever draw any decent tag...you would be correct and not a lot of thought required. A PP system is nothing more than a one time great tag if you got in at the right time. Step out of line one time and the line in front of you is so long you can't see the front.
A bonus point system if configured correctly, I'ld say yes that's better but to transfer points? Are you kidding me? Doesn't take much creative thought to see the devil in that one.
What a wonderful state you folks have. I always enjoy the people and the places and wish you all the best of luck but my God man...transfer points??are you kidding me??




Semper Fi
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

" I would be curious as to which 2 sportsman groups in WY are backing this? Is it probably SFW/MDF?"

It's my understanding that AFL/CIO Union Sportsmen (all 18,000 of them) supported it. As for the other group, I have no idea. I think it was SFW.

Hicks, "How is it fair that under the old random draw system we had senior citizens that had applied for moose and sheep of 25-35 years and never drew a permit in their entire life while people like yourself that may be relatively new comers drew one or two license in a short period of time."

I have 13 points for moose and sheep, and I am now 37. I didn't put in when I was in college out of fear I would draw a tag. So now I will be a senior citizen before I draw a sheep tag. That will be fun hiking the mountains with my walker.
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

There is a problem with random draws, and its the fact that some people will get left out and never get a tag while other get lots of tags.
Im a little unhappy because I haven't drawn an antelope tag in 3 years despite having 50% or better odds, and I have a bad feeling its not going to end

That's why most states have tried to change over to a more equitable way of distributing coveted big game tags. There are no easy answers, and problems with everything.
As far as I know Wyoming has the worst preference point system in the west and I hope it doesn't happen, but I would like to see something change
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

Piper,

I hope you can now clearly see the real problem with preference systems.

Any point system can be manipulated by people like Larry Hicks and changed to suit their greed. You know things like being able to transfer points and the like.

I'm on your side in wishing there was an equitable way to distribute tags, but when low-life scum sucking bottom feeders are involved, its best to just keep them random.

While you may be upset by not drawing an antelope tag for 3 years with 50% odds...I went on a "run" where I didnt draw 3 out of 4 years in areas with 85-92% draw odds for antelope.

It happens...
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-13 AT 08:29AM (MST)[p]piper---You really must be an unlucky guy and have no math comprehension to keep saying there is a more equitable way to dole out licenses than in a completely random draw like the residents have for deer, elk, and antelope. The fact is that everyone is treated the same, but a random draw even at a 50% chance doesn't mean you will get a tag every other year. The same is true for any one particular year in a PP draw when you have max PPs with 4 others and there are two tags given out. Two people will not get drawn even though all four have the same chance at it and crying like you appear to on every post when they don't draw isn't going to get your tag any quicker. Hunt areas that have tags every year like I hope you are and that a lot of us do and be a happy camper if you don't get your premium unit.
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

>There is a problem with random
>draws, and its the fact
>that some people will get
>left out and never get
>a tag while other get
>lots of tags.
>Im a little unhappy because I
>haven't drawn an antelope tag
>in 3 years despite having
>50% or better odds, and
> I have a bad
>feeling its not going to
>end
>
>That's why most states have tried
>to change over to a
>more equitable way of distributing
>coveted big game tags. There
>are no easy answers, and
>problems with everything.
> As far as I know
>Wyoming has the worst preference
>point system in the west
>and I hope it doesn't
>happen, but I would like
>to see something change

I would disagree that most states with PP systems have them because people are unlucky. CO got it simply from the push of the wealthy outfitters looking for a better way to ensure clients a tag. When CO went down this path it was the primary reason to ensure predictability in the system. That predictability has ensured points creep waiting 20+ years. Trapping Sportsmen,etc.

I would strongly suggest that all WY sportsmen speak out about the current BS, and propose a well researched and backed system to solve the issues. I would state something like all tags with less than a 10% draw is a once in a lifetime tag, or allows a person to be eligible only once every 5 years... A bonus point system could work, but not what was given to us nonresidents...
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

Topgun,
I don't agree with your above post! If there is 50% draw odds in the random draw there is a chance that a hunter may never draw a tag! With a pure pref pt system and the same number of people apply each year the same hunter is guaranteed an antelope tag in 2 years. You are absolutely right that he only has a 50% chance of drawing the first year with pref pts but he has 100% chance the 2nd year!

Plain and simple when I lived in Wyo I only drew 1 limited elk tag in 15 years of applying. Now that I live in Colorado and Wyo started pref pts I have drawn 2 limited elk tags...going on #3 possibly this year. I have also drawn 2 deer and antelope tags every year! A buddy of mine applies for similar deer and elk units as a resident and hardly ever draws tags!

Obviously I don't apply for the toughest units in Wyo where there is about 0.5% chance of drawing a tag w/ max pts. These tags would be impossible to draw with any draw system!

Every point system works differently and has it's good/bad points. I really like Wyo's nonres system with a random plus pref pt draw combined. What's nice about the current nonres system is all hunters have a chance to draw a tag each year plus it is possible to plan out what year you will likely draw what tag in the high pref pt pool.

I also like NV's system where everyone has a chance to draw tags each year but those with highest pts have a better chance.
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

Elk96,
I happen to disagree with you totally about Colo! I am a Colo resident and love the pref pt system! I am 100% in favor of pref pts in Colo. The current Colo pref pt system could use some tweaking but works great for me! I ONLY hunt non-guided and the system works fantastic for me!

On average I draw a deer tag every couple years and elk tag every 4 years here in Colo. If I switched to muzzy or archery I could draw excellent tags just about every year...guaranteed tags with a pref pt system!

You are correct that the toughest units in Colo pt creep each year. These would have impossible draw odds in any system. Do I believe ALL tags should go to those w/highest pts....no, but Wyo's current nonres system allows a pool of tags available for everyone to draw and another pool of tags for those w/high pref pts. That seems mighty fair to me and I really like knowing and planning which year I will likely draw what tag in the pref pt pool.
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

BuzzH,
I know Hicks. You are right.....not just self serving and greedy, but also crooked as hell!
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

jims---Sir, you need to go back to the drawing board. You just agreed with what I said in your first couple sentences regarding a random draw. Mathematically a person has the same chance every year as the next guy, but it is not "guaranteed" that he will ever draw the license and the more that apply the more that probablity will go up (ie. lotteries when the money builds into the jillions of dollars). The laws of probablity do, however, say he will eventually draw. Then you went into the Wyoming NR system and say something that is totally false. The only way a guy could be assured of a tag with his PPs the second or subsequent year would be if nobody else other than the previous people in that draw with no or fewer PPs for that particular unit could apply. The fact that you can go wherever you want with your PP application each year makes it much more difficult to know from one year to the next what is going to happen in a draw, especially when Huntin Fool and Eastmans and guys all over the internet start touting a unit. The odds generally will be worse the next few year as people read of an area that's being toutied. Also, the random draw does allow you a chance in the present system if there are a decent number of tags for a unit. However, if you look at the tough to draw ones in the PP draws that take almost all the tags, as well as the ones that have very few tags issued to begin with, a chance is pretty slim. Some don't even have a tag available in the random draw the way Wyoming has the percentages set up, in case you aren't aware of that.
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

It is not a good system. I am one under max points and have invested almost $300 in points and will not draw the best tags.

Do you think you would not be able to draw those same tags on a random system? You are wrong. If your applying for a tag that you can draw ever other year then on the old system it would have fairly easy to draw as well. The real issue is that state wide all units are experiencing PP creep on some level. It iks a function of the system.

Regardless the reason why the system was created was from a push by outfitters to add predictability to the draw so that they would have a better business model. It was not about ensuring access, etc. But about business.

How is it a good system when even decent units are taking 4-5 years to draw? There are many issues in CO, PP is just one of them.

Also if the system is so great how is it that we recently went to trying to offer some tags in the random draw? Why are there talks all the time about how it needs to change, how I have over 15 points for a tag that only took 14 when I started and am still looking at another 5-6 years to draw.

A bonus point system might be better, but still there are some serious issue in the system. While you may not like it, the WY system sucks. In WY people will still get tags, but it will all but eliminate new comers from having any chance at all from the great tags. i would be willing to bet that your great tags are probably only marginal for me. That is a matter of opinion.

You add to the crap about point transfers, and the points about the averaging of points etc. and the WY system is poised to become a huge PITA. On the flip side the current system is as fair and equitable as a person can ask for... What do you not understand about the fact that it is a level playing field...
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

The WY NR Elk/Deer system is the best PP system out there. Convert it to Bonus Points, leaving everything else the same and no other state could come close.
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL..."
Posted by WapitiBob on Jan-18-13 at 09:36 AM
The WY NR Elk/Deer system is the best PP system out there. Convert it to Bonus Points, leaving everything else the same and no other state could come close.


***Agree with you 100% Bob!!!
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-13 AT 09:56AM (MST)[p]I dont think he'll have to read between the lines...just sent him this email:

Senator Hicks,

I'm really not sure where to start with some of the legislation you've introduced. I'll preface by saying that I was actually pretty excited to know that, what I thought was a Sportsman, was elected to the State Senate.

I figured you'd give sportsmen/women a much needed voice in the State Legislature that would help wildlife, conservation efforts, as well as sportsmen.

I was wrong...very wrong.

I have read extensively 3 bills that you're endorsing that very clearly throw Resident Hunters, Non-Resident Hunter, and Wyomings Wildlife under the bus.

I'll start with SF-0076. Its my understanding of this bill that you have asked to secure money to relocate the Encampment River Bighorn Sheep herd if any action by a federal judge or agency requires the elimination of or retirement of domestic sheep grazing in the Sierre Madre's. I find this quite unusual for many reasons. The first being that you'd put a herd of wild sheep on the chopping block for the sake of strong arming the courts as well as federal land agencies. I find it reprehensible that any state Senator would use the publics wildlife resources as a pawn in some political chess match. Rather than try to work in cooperation with Sportsmen, Ranching, and Wildlife organizations to come up with solutions to address the problems with domestic/wild sheep issues...you just choose to remove the Publics wildlife from Public lands. This is not the type of legislation that is going to endear you to the Sportsmen of Wyoming. Any legislation that has the potential to remove public wildlife from public lands is just flat wrong...no question. I really wonder what the TRUE motivation is for this legislation? Perhaps there is a reason other than political pay-back that I'm not seeing.

Next, I'll dive right into SF-0085, the preference point bill you introduced. From information I've gathered, you are making unfounded claims, stating that "a mjority of Residents want a preference point system". I'd really like to know where you're getting this information? I dont know a single hunter in Wyoming that has ever been polled or asked if they support a preference system. I can tell you from the Wyoming Hunters I know, they are much more in favor of a bonus point system than preference. You, of all people, should know the problems associated with Preference Systems. Mainly, that if a hunter isnt in on the ground floor of these systems, their odds of drawing the best permits are about zero. Another thing you havent thought of (yeah right), is the potential for abuse of preference systems. If a preference system passes, I can assure you that many Residents will be applying their neighbors, non-hunting family members, non-hunting friends, etc for preference points. They will then "piggy-back" as a party member to increase their preference point totals to draw better tags down the road. I'm quite confident that you and I both know hunters that are serious enough to do something like that (hint). This is perfect lead into your next piece of legislation you're supporting.

HB124 is a real piece of work. This is the legislation that would allow the transfer of preference points. This legislation is the EXACT type of reason why Preference Systems should not be adopted to start with. The potential for abuse with this legislation is beyond comprehension. Again, the potential for hunters applying their non-hunting family members simply to gain more points is all this will accomplish. Not only that, it devalues the points for hunters that have been applying for 17 years now and faithfully acquiring points. If a 17 point holder gives his points to another 17 point holder...then the max point pool would be 34. Further, lets say I have 13 sheep points, my wife has 13 points....she could transfer me her 13 points and now I have 26 points and jump to the head of the line over those with 17 points. This legislation is such a joke its not even funny. The only people that would have anything to gain on a system like this are people that either dont have max points or have already shot a moose or sheep and want to AGAIN jump to the front of the line. I wonder if any of your family members have sheep and moose points they'd transfer to YOU? I wonder if this passes, as well as the Preference Point bill, if your family members will have preference points they'll pass on to YOU? I've a pretty good idea...

This all leads me to believe that you have no intentions of helping wildlife or Sportsmen in Wyoming. I intend to post this email on every hunting related website on the 'net as well as share with all my friends who hunt and fish in Wyoming.

Wyomings wildlife and Sportsmen dont need the Legisature/Legislators gerry-mandering for self-serving interests, they need proper Legislation to do whats best for all Sportsmen and all Wildlife.

These 3 bills are an absolute disgrace and I'll do everything I can to see that those who are only in the Senate/House to serve their personal agenda are promptly shown the unemployment line.

I really expected better from you and I'm well beyond disappointed with the legislation you're sponsoring and endorsing.

Best,
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

"I dont think he'll have to read between the lines."

***Ya think, LOL!!! Way to give him hell buzzer!!!
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

Topgun and Elks96,
Please answer this 1 question:

Do you think that if someone draws a tag they should go back to the end of the line and allow those that haven't drawn a tag a little better chance to draw?

Where I'm going with this is that if someone draws a nonres Wyo tag they still have a chance of drawing a tag the following year in the random draw but step to the back of the line in the pref pt pool. If that isn't fair I'm not sure what is?

The nonres Wyo pref pt system as it currently is works incredibly well for all but the toughest tags in the state to draw. It's your decision whether you want to wait a lifetime to draw a tag in Colo, Wyo or where ever or apply for great units that don't take as many pts or years to draw!

One fact is true is that your chances will be even tougher for drawing a once in a lifetime type tags without some sort of pref/bonus pt system.

You obviously don't believe that someone that applies for years and years should stand a little better chance of drawing than someone just starting out. It also sounds like you believe that someone that already draws a great tag should stand the same chance as anyone else that applies!
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

No. Random draw is the most fair/equitable system. Everyone has an equal chance at the tag. No one gets preference because they were a resident first, or managed to get in on the first year, etc. What is so hard to figure out that random draw is the most level playing field for all hunters who apply!

It is an entitlement process... I deserve to be at the front of the line because...

WY system is not great, wait another 10 years and tell me how great it is? Also what is the point of a points system unless you going to the top tags? Wouldn't a fair shot ever year be better? Right now a new person to the WY NR system is looking at thousands of other who all have an advantage over that person to the point that they may never draw.

I am not against all the systems, the WY one is OK, but could be better if it included a bonus point setup, but not matter what a unit I had a 10% draw at is now looking at taking 13-14 points to draw if everything goes as it is now. In that same time statistically I would have drawn that tag 1 time and been well on my way for the next time.

Colorado does suck ask anyone who is now 8-13 points in. There is a huge hole between 2-3 point units and the top units...
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

The Preference Point Bill passed the 2nd Reading of the Senate this morning.

Elks96, If you draw a moose or sheep tag, you have to wait 5 years before re-applying in Wyoming. Do you think that provision should be dropped so everyone has an equal chance every year to draw a sheep or moose tag? Isn't that the "fair way" in your eyes?

I am glad that we have a resident PP system in place for moose & sheep. I drew a sheep tag a few years back & am now back in the system. Am I bitter that I won't likely draw another? No, I am not. If I draw another, great, if not, so be it. Given our significant drop in sheep tags since the implementation of the system, maybe it should be once in a lifetime for sheep.

Personally, I don't see a problem with giving preference (however we do it) to someone that has applied for many years vs. someone just starting out or starting over. I don't see applying for multiple years for a tag as somehow an "entitlement".

Maybe we can hire Obama to oversee the PP system & he can take all the non-resident tags that folks have paid for and "re-distribute" to those who don't have as many. :)
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-13 AT 01:14PM (MST)[p]What elks96 said! However, I have no problem if they had a bonus point system to help the person that has been in the system a long time, as long as it doesn't hinder the newbie to any huge extent. That's really why I would have preferred the random system stay in place and that the NR system would have never been implemented. The deer unit I want to hunt is drawn 2 out of 3 years by my resident buddy and was about the same for NRs before the PPs sytem started. I have 4 PPs and will still be at least another year or two before I get a tag and that's if everyhing stays the same and a lot more people don't jump in and start putting in for the unit. THAT is the big problem when a guy can change from one unit choice to another from year to year because it changes the whole outlook of the draw compared to a completly random one.

elks96 stated: "Colorado does suck ask anyone who is now 8-13 points in. There is a huge hole between 2-3 point units and the top units... to help someone a little that has been waiting forever."

***The Wyoming NR system is getting the same way already in just it's first 7 years since inception and it won't get any better unless thousands of people bail out of the system by drawing or quitting completely! IMHO a sheep and moose tag should be a OIL with the animals so few and far between compared to the number of people that would like to hunt them.
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-13 AT 01:06PM (MST)[p]Man, where have I been with all this garbage going on.

I'll +1 Elks last post.
You are not entitled to anything in this life except air, taxes, death and crooked politicians.
I play the application game in MANY western states. I moved to Wyoming for a reason. Grew up in Idaho, married a Wyo gal and came here to finish school. I've had great job offers in other states that I will not take because the hunting in Wyo is 2nd to none. We make a decent living, get to do some fun things and live where we want to live. IMO money isn't everything - Family, Faith and hunting is!

Wyo Residents have it so good it almost isn't fair - except our Moose and Sheep PP's. I also have 4 kids that are up and coming hunters (oldest is 13). I've crunched the numbers. They will NEVER draw a Sheep tag in Wyoming (don't give me this 25% is random BS either!). My family grew up hunting elk up the Greybull. If my 6 year old EVER wants to hunt with their Grandpa in unit 63, they'll be 30 years old and he'll be dead. By the time my kid can even apply, we won't even be through the FIRST TIER of point holders for that tag (and they give out 138 resident tags). Imagine what it will be like for units with less opportunity?
I am not willing to let some whiner TAKE THAT OPPORTUNITY FROM THEM!
Pretty soon we'll have a bunch of lazy whiners who think that because they drew some great tag, that they should be 'guaranteed' a 370 bull - so let's cut tags, hunt during the rut, etc...... Then my kid is 40 before they ever draw a tag. (Ok, I might be exaggerating a little, but I've never seen a system work that makes very many people happy). Especially a system that is being crammed down our throats by a crooked politician.

Every Sportsman in Wyoming should be so pissed that they'd storm the capitol and sting Larry Hicks (The Snake from the Snake) up by his high heels. ARE YOU REALLLY GOING TO LET A POLITICAIN DETERMINE WHAT SYSTEM WILL BE USED???? I think there can be a compromise on a system to benefit most of the sportsmen of Wyoming, but Harry Licks is not the answer to any compromise.

-Cade
www.HuntForeverWest.com
 
RE: Hicks has spoken!!! LOL...

From what you guys are saying about this Hicks character, it's a shame he calls himself a hunter to be pulling the chit he is already up in Cheyenne!!
 

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