record nontypical

R

RLH

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i heard awhile back that there was some concern in some circles that the recognized new world record NT coues was really a mule deer. it's one taken in the 40's in new mex that just surfaced awhile back. i've seen several photos of it and i sorta think maybe they're right. i don't see anything that looks like a coues deer in the antlers. do they do dna tests or anything on this kind of stuff? are there photos of it with the antlers still attached to the head? what do you coues authorities think? not calling anyone a liar or anything like that, i just flat don't see a coues deer there.
 
Where did you see the pictures? Are they posted anywhere - that you know of? The most frequently used method to initially determine whether a pair of antlers came from an Eastern whitetail, mule deer or Coues deer is the distance between the antler bases; Coues skulls tend to be quite a bit smaller than either. I have seen antlers that some weenies tried to pass off as Coues deer, but when placed alongside a Coues deer of the same approximate age, it was obvious that they were not Coues deer. In any event, it's pretty tough to tell from a photograph without something to put it to scale. Of course, it's also possible that it was a hybrid...
 
I used to work with a guy that was a B&C scorer, mostly for blacktails. I asked him one time as we were looking through a pile of blacktail racks how he to tell the diffrence beteen them and a muledeer. He said the fastest way, but not the most accurate way is to measure the thickness of the skull plat with a caliper. I would assume that the same would hold true for couse.

As far as the world record being considered a muledeer or a muleycross... I would highly doubt it. Even though it may have some similar charateristics of a mule deer. When a world records surface, they scrutinize(sp)every detail of them. I don't know for sure but I would guess that the probably did a DNA test on it to assure that was indead a couse.

Ivan
 
the thing that jumps out at me is there isn't anything about it that looks like a coues. sometimes you see a muley that sorta looks like a coues or vice versa, but i don't see coues anywhere. i've heard that one way to tell is the distance between the antler bases and things like that, but this thing just looks like a real nice desert muley, or maybe a cross. it was killed in '41 so i'm assuming it isn't the original cape. one thing that screams muley is the brow tines. a coues that big should have whopper eyeguards. these things look muley. like i said, ain't trying to start any controversy, just want to know what was used as criteria to determine it was a coues.
 
Are we all talking about the buck AZ402 put the link up for? If it is the same buck, I am amazed it beats the next closest by something like 30 inches but it looks like an eastern whitetail. Allen Taylor......
 
I saw pics. of this buck 10 years ago, taken on the wall of the ranch. Long before it was entered. My buddy also has a pic. of a buck that was killed in Chihuahua Mex. That would score higher but has a split skull plate. WOW!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-03 AT 10:17PM (MST)[p]This could be wrong like a lot of other things I say, but I say it is a midget desert carp. Most Boone and Crockett scorers are only concerned with elk and carp. They need to have a few local scorers take a look at it or not. I want to know if Kirk Kelso thinks it really is a coues deer. What do a few Arizona scorers like Jim Engelmann and a few of the others, think about the deer? They have been scoring real coues deer (including green scoring with the head attached for proof sometimes). I say we all start blasting midget carp and have scorers from out of state score them as Coues bucks. You boys just wait and see the 135 inch typical 3 pointer without eyegaurds (most carp don't have them) I enter next year;)....Don't worry about the fact that he looks just exactly like every single other desert muley ever killed South of the Rim, them dudes from B&C who have never seen a live coues buck will never know the difference:p...

Bret M.
 
Just took a look at it. Whatever it is, it's a hawg! A 186-inch buck - whether a desert muley, Coues, or Eastern buck - is a big 'un. I've never seen one nearly that big, but my brother, a buddy of mine and I saw one in 1986 and 1987 that was actually pretty similar: not very wide, but very, very tall, with lots of junk, two drop tines, but only average brow tines. He was a 9x11, but he was only about 18 - 19" wide. Bottom line, he looked pretty weird, just like that thing on the other web site. Would've loved to have shot him IF I'd been able to find him in season, which I wasn't.
 
That deer has many more similarities to a north american whitetail than a Coues deer. and as Bura Nut mentions 30" better than anything else ???
 
Ever since this muley rack was recognized as a Coues rack, it has been really bothering me.....bad!

I have scored and seen hundreds of sheds and racks of Coues deer and I can't believe for a second that this rack is that of a Coues deer. The first thing that throws me off is the forked G-2's this thing has. I mean, I've seen some dang nice Coues bucks that have forked G-2's but look at the depth of the forks on this buck and the heighth of the G2's, come on.
A friend of mine named Dave Boland from MN showed me pictures of this deer several years ago and told me that it was killed on what is now the Gray's Ranch I believe. He believed it to be Coues but I instantly argued about it with him. He told me the story that he heard about this guy killing this buck in the early 40's but there was no photos or any kind of evidence stating to the fact that it was a Coues deer. Just looking at the heighth of the rack also throws me off. If you look at all the top 20 Coues bucks, both typical and non-typical, they all tend to have similar height and structure to the antlers. There is usually nothing amazingly different about the racks other than maybe mass and spread that sets them apart. You look at the NWR NT Coues buck and it looks almost freaky compared to the others. Think about this; you don't see a nontypical eastern whitetail that outscores all other bucks by almost 30". You don't see it in mule deer either. So why all the sudden would you have a relatively small deer, like the Coues that isn't known for having tons of antler on their heads, suddenly outscoring anything that has ever been seen by almost 30"? Thirty extra inches on a Coues deer is nuts if you ask me. Don't get me wrong cause I'd love nothing more than to see a Coues buck with such proportions walk near me when I've got my bow in hand. I'd freak!! I love Coues deer more than any other animal that walks this planet but you've got to give credit where credit is due and that is to the monster NT Coues buck that Dan King shot back in '91 that officially measures 159" and the monster "official" world record buck that measures just a half inch shy at 158 4/8". Two true monster Coues bucks deserving of world record status not a neat NT desert muley. I'll believe it when I see the DNA results....like that will actually ever happen. I don't blame B&C for it if it actually does (and probably will) turn out to be a muley, I think it's just something that needs to be proved before it's recognized as such.
One more thing. How could someone who measures northern whitetail and who has never had much experience, ever know the difference between a Coues buck and their own? I can definatly tell the difference between most Texas racks and eastern racks compared to our Coues deer because I have grown up admiring their antlers. They all share their own unique characteristics and the "officail" measurers should be VERY familiar with them also if they're going to be panel measuring such deer.

Sorry this post is so long but I just had to let it all out.

Josh
 
Josh, I am really having a hard time believing that there is such a huge spread between this buck and others. It is somewhere around a 18% size/score difference between a 159 and a 186. That is huge. That would be like a 225 typical muley then up pops a 263 typical muley. That is a huge percentage jump. Is there DNA evidence off this buck??????? Allen Taylor......
 
B&C works in mysterious ways that only they understand. they will disallow things on hearsay, and BS but turn around and allow things that don't make much sense. a good friend was an official scorer for them for about 30 years, until about 1980. he finally quit because of what he felt were politics. my guess is that whoever entered it is well connected. they tried real hard to disallow King's big buck too. my guess is that this is a slap at him maybe. look what they did do keep the stocwell buck as the record typical. the one from the white mt. rez is clearly bigger and was scored as such by several guys before it went before the "official" board. somehow it shrunk just enough to be #2. they tried some real stupid things on the new WR typ elk because they didn't want it to displace the Plute bull. years ago i killed a huge black bear that would have been the world record. they wouldn't even look at because the eye oribt was broken. even with it removed it was still the record. i've taken probably 6 or 8 heads of different animals since then that make the minimum, but never bothered entering them. i remember some years back an old guy in i think idaho killed several mt lions that were bigger than the 16"er world record that Teddy Roosevelt killed. they always figured out a way to keep him from replacing TR on the list. i think he finally got one that was big enough they had to finally give it to him. glad to hear there are others that maybe have a similar view of b&c. they have a neat way of scoring, but they get to decide who gets the records. not the animal.
 
RLH, I totally agree with you about the possibility that they made this buck the record because of all the controversy in the Dan King vs. AZG&F. His buck was "officially" measured at 159" by a B&C measurer but because they took 8 years or so fighting the case (which by the way, the AZG&F never won) the rack shrunk. They wouldn't keep the original score on the deer without a new panel measure score so Dan said to hell with it and never entered it. I think that they went ahead and made this buck the NWR just cause it beat all others out of the water just to avoid the hassle of fighting with Dan about it. Who knows. I personally watched one of Arizona's most well known B&C measurers score that huge typ Coues buck when it was on display at the sportsmans expo at the Civic Center in Phx a few years back. I was completely tweeked when I saw where the main beam measurement was taken. He started from right behind the antler as if you were viewing it from the back and then came up along the beam. If he were to actually read and maybe retake the measurers course he would and should know that you take the measurement from the lowest outside point of the mainbeam, just like it says in the manual. That rack nearly lost an inch per beam on that mismeasurement alone. He ended up getting 143" and that's where it stands today. Had he gotten the 2 extra inches like the other measurers had it would have beaten the Stockwell buck easily. Needless to say I'll never have anything measured by that guy.
You're right when they investigated Alan Ellsworth for supposedly breaking off an extra eyeguard of that huge 6x6 so it would score better just because of some heresay. Hell, if the point had never broke off, that rack would still beat the top NT records too. You know come to think of it, after Alan was "under investigation" by B&C, maybe some sort of political BS happened and the word was passed down to shorten the giant Coues buck up a tad so that it wouldn't make it as the NWR just cause they didn't like Alan. I'm not saying this is the case at all but it sure is strange when you think about all that has happened. My goodness, they're just antlers. I thought the whole point was to give as much credit to the animal as it deserves, the hunter or owner of the antlers should have nothing to do with it. Oh well.

Alan, you're exactly right, I'm glad my point came across to somebody. As far as I know the rack has never been DNA tested and probably never will be.

Josh
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-03 AT 08:18PM (MST)[p]Thanks for posting the picture Darren, by the way, any chance of me getting some dental work done in the near future?

I just wanted to show the size difference of the NWR NT Coues buck compared to some seriously big Coues bucks to it's side. This picture was taken at the B&C convention in Missouri about 2 years back. The G2's on the NWR have got to be reaching, at least 15", maybe more. That's freakin crazy! 100% muley, that's my opinion.

Josh

PS Sorry Allen for spelling your name wrong.
 
DAAAAMN!!! when you put that buck next to some real coues the diffference is glaring. i think that just removed all doubt to me. it's a real nice desert muley on a coues cape. man, i do not see a coues there in those antlers anywhere. what a disgrace.
 
I must agree with you, that buck looks like a carp deer. The only way it could have Coues DNA is if it were a hybrid, which does happen sometimes. The split G-2's are a posative inicator that it is indeed a carp deer. In the Az. Hunting Regs. it says, "The antlers of a mule deer branch out in a double forked pattern." Also look at the height of the antlers, totally carp deerish!!!! When it busts the all time record by 30 inches should make alarms go off. I have been hunting Coues all of my life and I can say this is definately not a Coues. I think it is an awesome buck but it is a digrace that it is #1 in the World when it's not even a Coues. I think B&C should go over it with a fine tooth comb and then they might find it is a Coues/carp hybrid. Travis
 
I say we find out about DNA testing. What is to prevent someone from bringing in an eastern whitetail as a coues?????? Allen Taylor......
 
Great idea, only thing is the cost of a DNA test. To do a genetic break down costs about $60,000 (I believe)! I don't think B&C is willing to shed out that kind of cash for a record book.

But I do think there should be something done to keep these guys in check so we don't get sub-species intermixed and passed off for others...ie a eastern for a coues.

Scott G.
 
I have heard that there is some way of measuring the skull-plate that can determine if it is a coues or not. My taxidermist told me this. He also says there is no way that buck is a coues. Maybe we could petition B&C to be more careful (especially when were are talking about #1 in the world!)Every hardcore coues nut I know takes one look at this deer and says it's a carp, hybrid, or eastern. Travis
 
I don't know about measuring the skull plate, but it sounds logical. As for looking at the antlers and trying to decide if it is a mulie, just look at the shadow it casts on the wall in the pix that DDS posted. Then look at all the other true Coues in the pix. I'm afraid it just looks 'out of place'. I'd call it a mulie. JMHO

Ghost Hunter
 
Allen, I know of at least 2 bucks entered into the Coues category P&Y that are eastern bucks. I've seen the racks. They were small 90-100" eastern bucks this guy claimed to have shot with his bow and entered as Coues bucks just to get recognition. The guy is a serious lamo. They're still in the book though. I need to talk to someone about that.
Josh
 
Josh, I hope they yank them from the book. I dont know why, but eastern whitetails just dont have the class that coues bucks do. I know people try to put weiner easterns in as a coues. They ought to just put a picture of the weiner who tried to cheat the system with fake coues........... Allen Taylor......
 
Allen,
I know why Eastern Whitetails don't have the class that Coues do.
I think it's the body weight to antler mass ratio. I can't think of another deer that has such a light body weight but large antler mass. Put it this way: Coues 100 pounds- 150 inches of antler. Eastern 300 pounds- 300 inches of antler. You can go on up the list with carp deer and even to elk. If you think about it it's true. Not to mention Coues have the prettiest capes of any deer and,as you know, they are the most difficult deer to get in the books. Travis
 
Travis, I agree with you now that its put in the above example. I thought of something else that sound gay, but think about this. The coues is so small/dainty/tiny (all the crap used to describe their stature) yet it is the toughest deer pound for pound. There is a certain mystique or something about being really small but really tough......... Allen Taylor......
 
hey antlerboy
how are things in Arizona? I have been hearing about a set of sheds found on the fence line,wheat fields in unit 10, that gross 440 typical?
 
Hey Todd good to hear from you. Things are great here in AZ as usual. Drop me an email. [email protected] I can't wait to see some pics of this monster you mention. That's the first I've heard of it. I just measured a set of NT elk sheds earlier in the week that measure 403 3/8" net!! May be the new #1 in the shed antler record book. The set was fresh when found in '96 possibly from 9 or 10, who knows. I'll email you a picture of them when I get your email.

Josh
 
Allen, Sorry to bring out your feminine side,haha,
just kidding. Really I agree with you that pound for
pound they are the toughest and most elusive of all
deer, even though they are the most beautiful deer
on the planet. Travis
 
I saw this buck just days after it was mounted. I have to agree with most of you, that it does not look like any coues deer that I have ever seen. I was able to get some information on the history of the buck from the taxidermist that did the mount. I don't remember all of the particulars since it was about 12 years ago. The buck was killed in south central New Mexico. This alone raised some question since there are not many coues taken from this area. The B&C club was asking a lot of questions as to the origine of the buck. It did seem as though the skull plate was overly wide for a coues deer, but it is difficult to tell after the buck is mounted. I was supprised to see that the B&C allowed the deer to be entered as a coue deer. My thoughts were that it was probably a hybrid of a Mule deer and a west Texas Whitetail. No matter what it is, he is certainly impressive.

Bill
 
i would have to agree with u that he is impressive, but the plain and simple fact is he is not a coues so he should not be the world record coues. put him in the books as either a mule deer or a texas whitetail but not a coues because it is not a coues deer!!
casey
 
Myself and Amanda Moors of the www.coueswhitetail.com web page talked to Roger Selner at the ISE show last weekend about this buck and he doesn't believe for a second that this deer is a Coues deer. It was definatly killed on the Gray's Ranch in S/W New Mexico though. I still say "WHAT A RIP OFF!". One of these days it'll get jerked from it's world record status.
Josh
 

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