Rangers aginst guns in Parks. . . .

T

TFinalshot

Guest
Park ranger group opposes gun proposal
By MICHAEL JAMISON of the Missoulian


- Thousands of national park rangers, police and retirees are speaking out against a plan to allow loaded guns in national parks - a proposal first put forward by Congress and now made possible by the White House.

“It's a terrible idea,” said Doug Morris, who has 40 years' experience with the National Park Service, from law-enforcement ranger all the way up to park superintendent. He's also a member of the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees, a widely respected group whose 640 members have a combined 19,000 years working in the nation's parks.

At a Monday news conference, Morris joined the Association of National Park Rangers and the Ranger Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Police, as well as the National Parks Conservation Association, in opposing any plan that would put weapons on the hips of national park visitors.

Previously, an Oklahoma senator tried to place an amendment on a public lands bill allowing loaded guns in parks. When that measure drew political opposition, a stand-alone bill was crafted that would change Park Service rules to allow guns in parks.
At the same time those congressional wheels were turning, pressure was coming to bear on the Department of the Interior to take up the cause from inside. Some 50 senators - including Montana Democrats Max Baucus and Jon Tester - penned a letter to Interior, asking that the rules be changed.

And according to NPCA legislative representative Bryan Faehner, “There has been pressure, top down, from the White House.”
On Friday, Interior announced it would open the current rules to scrutiny, taking public comment on a possible “update” to park gun regulations.

Proponents argue guns are necessary for personal protection. They also say rules for gun use should be consistent across federal lands - on Forest Service lands, for instance, hunting is allowed.

Proponents also have said it is a fundamental Second Amendment issue, and rules prohibiting guns in parks infringe on those citizen rights.

Under current rules, guns are allowed in parks, but must be unloaded and properly stored. The National Rifle Association - which helped write the letter sent by senators to Interior - has argued existing regulations are overly burdensome.
Those rules date back to the mid-1930s, and were most recently reauthorized during the Reagan administration.

Faehner and other critics say allowing loaded guns in parks would put wildlife at risk, as well as endangering both people's safety and the “family friendly” reputation of national parks.
Morris said “parks are special places,” and predicted any public comment period will result in an overwhelming rejection of guns in parks. In his 40 years with the National Park Service, Morris said he'd seen animals shot on “impulse” when urban visitors - who were breaking the gun rules - felt threatened by surprise encounters with wildlife.

Putting guns in parks, he said, illustrates a “total disregard for how society values our national parks.”
Scott McElveen, president of the Association of National Park Rangers, agreed, and added his organization's 11,000 members to the growing list of those opposed to any rule changes.
He worries about wildlife being killed or injured, and about park employees and visitors, too.

George Durkee, director of the Ranger Lodge of Fraternal Order of Police, said there is “absolutely no practical reason” for changing current rules, noting “how panicked some visitors get when they see a wild animal.”

He imagines scared campers, hearing noises in the night, firing rounds from tents in crowded campgrounds.
And guns provide only a false sense of security in the woods, Durkee said, because “getting shot is just going to piss off a 500-pound grizzly bear.”

In fact, parks are some of the safest places in the country, he said, and are refuges not only for wildlife but also for visitors.

Hunters, the rangers said, already can pass easily through parks with their guns, so long as they're unloaded and packed away.
“It's just not a problem,” Durkee said. Adding loaded firearms to campgrounds, however, “changes the whole tenor of how a family area feels.”

In Morris' estimation, allowing guns in parks “truly opens a Pandora's box of possibilities.”
Nevertheless, the Bush administration has said it will publish a draft of its revised regulations by April 30, opening the issue to public comment.

In announcing that move to the Senate, Secretary of the Interior Dirk Kempthorne said the draft would take into account recent changes to laws governing guns in federal buildings, as well as gun laws in individual states.

It will, he said, preserve the “values of our public lands, including the safety and enjoyment of all visitors, while enhancing local control and respecting an individual's Second Amendment right to bear arms.”

Tom Keirnan, however, agreed with Morris' prediction that the public ultimately will reject any move by Interior to allow loaded guns in parks.

The president of NPCA said his group is “convinced when the review process is complete, it will show the existing regulations are not unduly burdensome, but are limited, reasonable and necessary to enable park rangers to carry out their duties of protecting the millions of families who visit our parks every year, and the wildlife that inhabits them.”
Reporter Michael Jamison can be reached at 1-800-366-7186 or at [email protected].
 
The problem as I see it as with most gun bans is this.

The folks that we do not want to have guns in the parks......................already have guns in the parks. By baning guns in the parks they are only banning law abiding citizens from having guns in the park. When will people ever get this undenialble truth.
Why punnish the LAW ABIDING citizen?????????????



"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)
 
get a grip 02, youre logic is flawed. you know little to nothing about the issues, you known nothing about law enforcement, and nothing about the national parks, so youre just talking trash. . .
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-08 AT 12:04PM (MST)[p]Well if they don't want us to, we shouldn't. I have no doubt they could respond in mere seconds if my families lives were in danger. Yeh right. Good grief, they can go to ^&%$.
I'm even thinking about buying a quad.
47c462a60ace264d.jpg



Ransom
 
What you have is several liberal leaders of the park police organizations that are against it. I have seen this with law enforcement groups, Faternal order of Chiefs of Police, who say the same thing. But the majority of street cops are very pro gun, and those liberal leaders take it upon themselfs to speak for all of them. they need to get out of the office and see the real world. Tfinal I will be in your area this coming Oct. and I will be packing while in Yellowstone, because I can not depend on those park rangers to be there to protect me all the time.
Another thing to consider is that the Park rangers are very poorly trained compared to alot of other law enforcement agencies, their main job has been PR related dealing with tourists. Do you feel comfortable with them protecting you, I sure do not. Tfinal you are grasping at straws to prove your point and project your two face ideals of a citizen having the right to carry and possess firearms. I can respect a person who is totally against firearms for everyone, your kind is like a wolf in sheeps clothing that deserves no respect.

RELH
 
if you have permit to carry a loaded fire arm in a national park great, go for it, if you dont, and your packing in a park youre no different than anyone else willing to break the law, in fact, youre the sames guys that say gun bans only keep law abiding citizens from packing guns, according to your own logic your wrong, unless you consider yourselves criminals - I would if I know you were breaking a federal law like packing in a national park . . .
 
The 'spin' is great from these guys. One says if they have guns they will shoot wildlife, WTF? If someone is willing to shoot wildlife inside a national park, are they worried about what the law is on having a gun? What a moron.

Why should I as a law-abiding citizen in good standing not be allowed to protect myself? How is that constitutional? Why should someone with a badge be able to take my right and duty to protect my family out of my hands? Unless they are willing to ensure EVERY visitor to EVERY national park will be safe the entire time people are in the park, law abiding citizens MUST be allowed to protect themselves and their loved ones.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
" get a grip 02, youre logic is flawed. you know little to nothing about the issues, you known nothing about law enforcement, and nothing about the national parks, so youre just talking trash. . ."


Please oh great one tell me how my logic is flawed.



"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)
 
Personally I do not pack heat where it is unlawful. That is not how I roll.


"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)
 
C'mon T man up. You can't just run your mouth on me like that and not back it up. Come correct T. Lets here it. How is my logic flawed?


"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)
 
Question?? Is TFinal an illegal immigrant from France? Does he have a green card? Is here he on a student visa and is an arch supporter of the Democratic Party? Is he is related to James Carville? Is he here to collect the $4,000 that our future commander in cheif wants to give all our college students?

Maybe T Final is an masked ass kicking redneck that just loves to piss people off??
 
BomberBlackies;

I think if you would read Killowatts post on "suspicions confirmed" and the heading, "Top psychiatrist concludes liberals are clinically nuts", you come to a understanding about Tfinals positions on certain items. He can not help it and those long Montana winters of being snowed in helps to elevate those feelings.

RELH
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-08 AT 10:19PM (MST)[p]I have lived within 20 minutes of a Ntl park most my life. I have had many encounters with rangers and park employees as you have to pass through sections of the park to hunt pulic land or to condut business on the other side.To say were dealing with a whacked out untrained division of law enforcement is an understatement.A friend of mine was pulled over as they passed through a section of the park to go hunting.The ranger asked to check their weapons.The 1st weapon he checked was a lever action.He cranked the lever to open the action and when he seen there wasn't a bullet in the chamber he closed the action chambering a bullet and cocking the gun.He hands it back barel first to my friend.He than asked to check the other rifle and my buddie proceeds to tell him he just took a perfectly safe firearm and cocked and loaded it and pointed it at him and he would have to get his superior present before they handed him another rifle.Than there was the time my brother and I got pulled over on our way off the mountain from muzzleloader hunting.The ranger looks our guns over and asks if we've removed the bolts (the law is if you are carying a bolt action center fire rifle you have to remove the bolt when passing through the park). My brother and I looked at each other and kind of laughed.We had to explain that these were muzzleloaders and that they did not have removable bolts.I thought the ramrods were a dead give away and the fact that there were no centerfire season currently open.Than there was the time we were bugling some elk in on a piece of private ground adjacent to the park.A park ranger had the gull to enter the priavte and tells us we were in violation of the wildlife harrassment act.
 
Tfinal, for lack of a better term your a ##### douche bag. I also would like to add that the best part of you ran down your mothers leg.



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
> Tfinal, for lack of a
>better term your a #####
>douche bag. I also would
>like to add that the
>best part of you ran
>down your mothers leg.
>

Finally someone with the balls to say what I was thinking......thanks nunya

JB
 
anyone want to take bets on how long it is before nunya gets his post nuked and threaten with being banned?????

RELH
 
> Tfinal, for lack of a
>better term your a #####
>douche bag. I also would
>like to add that the
>best part of you ran
>down your mothers leg.
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------
> "I needed a cheesy signature
>saying like everyone else"

+1 LMAO

Kyle
"If it moves shoot it again"
 
I've been a cop for a few years in a mid to large size city. I have taken guns off of some pretty hardcore crooks, gangsters and tweakers. I have not ever had a problem with any citizen that had a concealed permit, and I think responsible citizens should protect themselves!

I know that crime happens fast! Especially violent crime! The police will only get there to protect people if they "randomly happen" to be very close by(which does happen but hardly ever!) OR the crime lasts for about 3-4 minutes. I have responded to hundreds of violent crimes and cannot remember arriving before its over. Crooks know the cops are coming and they keep it short! And they usually get away! And when we do catch up with them Judges give them "another chance" until they run into one of those dang crimes that carry a manditory sentance!

I also know that I appreciate the work that all cops and law enforcement officers do, but NO ONE is going to protect me and my family LIKE I WILL! I really think nothing would change if responsible, permited people are allowed to carry guns in NP's and other places, and I hope they allow it!
 
like I said, I agree, if you have permit, great. pack a 93r perabellum if that's turns you on. I fail to see where "permit" to carry is or has been part of the dissution other than to agree that if you have one great, if not, open carry is a bad idea in the backcountry of most of our national parks.
 
drannan, good post. I believe we have many good law enforcement officers in the field, and you sound like one of them.Consequently, these park rangers are a different breed.

TFinal, You can pack heat in a national forest so why not a national park.Public land is public land.
 
this may sound strange, but national parks are NO longer part of the "public domain" in the way our blm and forest service lands are.

If you want to start your own thread on this subject go ahead.

keep out national parks gun free. . . we dont need more shooting in glacier and yellowstone. . .
 
>
>keep out national parks gun free.
>. . we dont need
>more shooting in glacier and
>yellowstone. . .



Gun free? You mean like Northern Illinois Univesity? That was also a gun free area. The shooter walked past more than one gun free zone sign with his weapons.
When will morons like you T-FINAL wake up? People who have the intentions of breaking the law don't give a ##### about your gun free zone's. Its just another law they give a ##### less about.
I'll be judged by 12 rather than carried by six should it come to me needing to defend myself with a weapon. You should not need a permit to defend yourself.
You must have missed my first post. Go up and reread T.



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-08 AT 01:56PM (MST)[p]>Question?? Is TFinal an illegal immigrant
>from France? Does he have
>a green card? Is here
>he on a student visa
>and is an arch supporter
>of the Democratic Party? Is
>he is related to James
>Carville? Is he here to
>collect the $4,000 that our
>future commander in cheif wants
>to give all our college
>students?
>
> Maybe T Final is an
>masked ass kicking redneck that
>just loves to piss people
>off??


This is what I've suspected for some time now.....Think he's just a guy who gets off by throwing rocks at hornet nests. There are a couple others just like him on here. Obviously way in the minority and way wrong most the time......
Not that I am opposed to differing viewpoints.... just seems like when it's the same guy over and over it's gotta be someone just looking to "stir $hit up" so to speak.

One thing I have'nt heard mentioned from a safety standpoint is animal attacks. I spend little to no time in any national parks but are you telling me if you go hiking in say Yellowstone if your packing a gun as a bear deterrant your breaking the law?? Seems pretty stupid to me.....
 
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

TF, there are scrotes everywhere, even in Natl. Parks. Cooking meth, selling dope, raping and killing. The scumbags that would harm you and yours aren't going to check their weapons at the gate.

Some of you guys have way too much faith in violent criminals obeying the law...LOL!
 
Does most everybody agree that our most liberal poster (sorry dude) just got his friggin arse whooped. Hello, is anybody home upstairs?
 
Ok TF I agree, NO permit should be needed! People should be able to carry if they want the responsibilty of protecting themselves. Cop or not I have always/will always carry. I have no problem seeing others with guns unless they are criminals, or are doing something dangerous. I also live in an EXTREMLY liberal city where people call all the time just seeing a responsible citizen transporting a rifle in a case to their truck. This is frustrating to me because it's the gun that makes them scared, not scary behavior coupled with a gun.

I don't think "seeing" a gun in the backcountry of a NP is something that I really want to protect people from. ITS NOT SCARY! People need to get educated and realize that they are at almost NO risk from other citizens in the NP, guns or no guns. The danger posed from criminals with guns or other weapons in the NP is still low, but SCARY if they end up the victim of a violent crime.

I am not a big burly guy that can beat anybody up, nor do I ever pick fights. I am very concious that I will look like the bad guy if I get into a road rage thing or anything else that ends up with me in a fight off duty. The media loves it when cops do anything that can be construed as bad or aggressive! I don't live my life in fear of anyone, but I do fear being the victim of a violent crime and not being able to protect myself and my family.

I live in a very quiet small town away from the big one I work in. I have been in both towns and had scary things happen off duty that re-enforce to me that I need to carry at all times. I have 2 times walked into a store as an armed robber ran out. I have been standing in a small store when an armed robber robbed the next store over, then ran from the police, past the store I was in, pausing and considering running into the store I was in. He chose to keep running thank God. I was holding my very small son, and was worried we could be held hostage if he ran into the store I was in. I can't imagine not being armed and ready to protect my son. I could not bear it to own the weapons, but not have them with me to protect him if needed.
EVEN IF I WAS IN A NATIONAL PARK!

Crime happens where criminals are, and they sometimes go to National Parks. IF PEOPLE WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF PROTECTING THEMSELVES, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TOO! (And it's a huge responsibility!) I'm sorry this is so long, but I care about this issue.
 
Also, I completly agree with isaynunaya post #24. I see it everyday at work. Good people getting along with everyone, following societies rules for the most part. CROOKS DON'T CARE ABOUT LAWS. TF and others like him HOPE to be safe...they HOPE crooks don't target them, they HOPE crooks don't go to National Parks on the day that they go there, it seems like bad things happen to "other people." Well here's what I HOPE, I HOPE that "other people" are armed and ready to protect themselves, because I KNOW that anyone can be the victim of an attempted violent crime.
 
Drannan, post 29 reminds me of why I need to start pack'n. I have my permit but have never really carried. Whats a good piece to pack these days that aint overly bulky but will get the job done.I know the 40 glocks are popular!

Mike
 
Glock 36, Glock 19, tarus 111ssp, Llama mini max (1911 spin off)

Have them all and are all good carry guns. I like the glock 19 the best out of all of them.



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
Yup, I usually carry my Glock 19 or my Glock 26. Both are 9mm, and I only use Federal Hydra Shok 2 ammo. They're bonded bullets and the dept. I work for uses them for duty ammo, and has had really good luck with them.

I think Glocks are the best all around hand guns(based on durability,ease of use, accuracy, ect). I always tell people who don't know what to carry to get a 26 or a 27. I wish I could carry a 40. cal at work but I am restricted to 9mm. I think either would be a great choice.
 

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