question of SFW in Utah

B

birdog

Member
Messages
61
So down here in Arizona we have been fighting an offshoot of the corrupt Utah SFW over the last several weeks. My question is how do you sportsman in Utah put up with this Organization and why haven't you ran it out of town on a rail. Seems like they are stealing your tags, your money and your heritage to line there pockets, no back bone in Utah or what?
 
bird,
You only know what you read on the internet, I'm assuming. The SFW is actually done a lot of good for the state of UT. If you actually lived in UT and knew the whole story from the start to present you may have a different view.

In fact I believe that the SFW has actually increased it's membership this year and that increase is not the wealthy. It's concerned average Joe sportsmen.

So if AZ chooses to vote against the current legislation then that is AZ choice but you might me surprised if it passes how much good it does.
 
Bird azSFW wasn't to smart, they went for too many tags all at once. Ut was smarter, they started small where all member THOUGHT they had an imput. Not any more SFW was been invading the board that make decisions and SFW every year tells us they will be MORE and Better transparency on where the $ is spent but it dosn't happen. They've got the guides on board because the high paying clients hire them. Then they have few sucking off the teet for leftovers all in the name of conservation. There numbers? We have no idea Don used to brag about them but he doesn't anymore so I sure there down. People are now FINALLY relizing the s t does stink.
 
Muley73 has been drinking to much koolaid. Muley you need to do some research about SFW, but of course you won't because you can't fix stupid.
 
Ha ha, I understand the dislike for SFW. They do things that I do not agree with. However I look at the big picture. That includes everything prior to the SFW to present. That does not make me stupid, it actually makes me educated. More educated than most complaining about the SFW because it is the trendy thing as of late. The truth is most of the original haters have personal reasons or conflict that has turned them against the SFW they have created a following by bad mouthing and whining. They have all claimed for years now they have the dirty inside info that will bring them down. Well to this point it's never anything but talk. Many audits, many shots taken and yet they stand and still produce more benefit for UT hunters than any other group FACT! Just look at the latest legislation. 2 million a year to the DWR for coyote control. Without the SFW it never happens. That is a fact and if you don't believe that then have a chat with the legislators themselves.

The issues is deeper than 200 expo tags and the opportunity to have a deer tag in your pocket every single year. But as Elite correctly stated, you can't fix stupid!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-12 AT 05:21PM (MST)[p]Yea our deer heard has exploded under their watch. What weve lost 200k deer and 150k in hunters thats a success story? Az I know your deer number are not to hot either but your not whoreing out 500 tags every year either.
 
Muley there was an audit done where SFW cannot accountable for some of the money they have received. I use to be a big supporter of SFW until I saw them for what they truly are. Maybe someday you will see the light and realize the same things I have.

Yeah SFW is helping killing coyotes and offering fancy bounties for these mongrels, but coming from someone who hunts a lot of coyote then I believe I can speak on this subject. I don't think that we will even put a dent in the coyote population because there isn't enough hunters that are truly good at killing coyotes.

Killing coyotes makes hunters feel good. SFW wants hunters to feel like they are doing some good to win back some of it's ex-members and future members. So I guess we will feed off this coyote emotion for awhile because it makes us feel good. We believe we are doing some good for our deer herds, but reality will hit sooner or later.

Muley you can't fix stupid. You say that you look at the big picture, but your words and actions say something different.
 
Elite,
Have you read the actual legislation? Most of the money will not just go to random hunters. It will go to hired pros and more aerial gunning.

Love,
I agree that the SFW has failed to this point on our deer herds. But let's get the true numbers correct and in a correct time line. 100,000 deer hunters stopped hunting before the SFW showed up. Becausw the state had lost 600,000 to 800,000 deer before the SFW came around. This is the reason the SFW got their foot in the door to begin with. They have however been successful in many other areas and I believe with the renewed focus on the deer herd we will see some success. For that and the FACT that no other group is doing a Damnnn thing for our deer herd I'll keep my support with the SFW.
 
If you are going to hammer on SFW for the currant status of mule deer in Utah you better get on the currant DWR and ask for the resignations of the bioligists who have been managing this resource. SFW has delivered for them all they have asked for over the years and yet mule deer still decline. You guys can attack the ideas and aproach that SFW uses all you want but very little of what SFW has done has not had the support of the DWR. If the conservation tags were so bad they would be gone the program has been reveiwd by many politicians over the years some with as bad or worse axes to grind about SFW and some of it's members as you guys seem to have, but the program still stands Utah continues to do habitat work, transplants, water projects, some major mule deer studies that the bioligists say will tell us why deer are disappering, and more. But by all means you should stop this program and for a few years we can get a few hundred more permits in the draw instead of doing the work needed to grow our herds. I for one will fight to keep doing what we are so I can leave things a little better for my kids then how things were when I first became a parent.
 
Muley73. There isn't enough pros to kill 75% of the coyotes annually. A gunner killed 55 coyotes from a helicopter on the Monroe so how much was spent per coyote?
 
Amen Birddog, be damn greatful you guys were on your toes and shut these guys down.Keep diggig into the behind the curtain ways this groups operates.It seems like a never ending story once you start expo funds,stream acess, alasaka, arizona, wolf delisting, pushing for limited entry buck to doe ratios on our general units, turning my elk hunting in utah into a once in a lifetime hunt, Im sure there is more to be unvailed soon.
 
Hey Jeremy "Cache",

You seem to have a lot of complaints. I would guess your from Cache Valley. I know you have posted gripes before. I know a lot of hunters from Cache Valley.
I don't remember seeing you at any wildlife related projects.

Don't remember seeing your name on the list helping with deer feeding projects, planting bitter brush on the Millville face, feeding elk on the Millville face, helping with youth fishing day, youth pheasant hunts, SFW, RMEF, MDF, NRA, banquets. I don't think I'm blind. Just wondering what you have done personally to try to help improve hunting,or fishing,in the Cache area.

We just had our SFW banquet. It was another great sold out banquet with over 500 people attended.

Just wondering if you were one of those hunters that just complain, and then do nothing to try to make things better and help out?

I agree with many. If SFW were not helping sportsmen things would be alot worse. In many areas things are MUCH better. That is why we have sold out banquets all through out Utah. Sportsmen and Women see with their eyes what has and is happening.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-12 AT 01:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-12 AT 01:32?PM (MST)

You wouldn't have as many sold out banquets if you didn't receive tags to sell at these banquets. Without the public tags that SFW sells then SFW would be nothing. 500 people is actually a pretty small number considering the hunting population. I attended a banquet that didn't have public tags to pimp to the highest bidder and there was still 457 people there. It's a small organization. Sure, SFW has done a lot of great things, but what about all the crappy things they have done. An audit was made on SFW and then cannot account for millions of dollars, but hey they are doing projects so we should give them a free pass. They haven't fixed our deer herds in 18 years, but we should give them a free pass because they can have 500 people at banquets.

SFW has limited hunting opportunity more than PETA could ever dream of.
 
Greg,
If I were an organization that was taking everyones money for the sake of bettering wildlife and our hunting heritege only to put back 10 cents for every dollar given back into something even remotely related to wildlife then I'd sure as hell be telling you what i have done in my community for wildlife.Untill then I don't owe it to you to give you my rap sheet. I'm not the one claiming to be the almighty savior of wildlife in this state and in my eyes how are things "Better" due to the SFW? When I say better I mean for the masses of people not just a select few who can pay high dollars or the selet few who actually draw out for the top tier of elite tags.This is a very small percentage of our total hunting population.To me better means better for the majority of people that are everyday hunters that look forward to being on the mountain year after year.If things are so much "better" with SFW controll then I want you to tell me what the hell is up with our current mule deer situation? After all this is the species that most the population can hunt on a yearly basis.How about our moose? We are now giving 5 tags in the cache. And if you want to talk elk lets do it.I know we have more elk now then before but what i would like to ask you is at what cost. I will draw two elk tags in this state only because I got in at the begining.I drew one a couple of years ago,a 15 year wait and I'll be retired by the time i get another.There are a ton of people that didn't get in the early years and they will be lucky to draw one tag in their life.To me this is insane.In my opion the pros of having more trophy elk come at a much to great of a price.I know SFW loves to take credit for our elk hunting now days and how they worked so hard for the state of Utahs elk hunters.Do you thik this elk plan was put in place for the average utah elk hunter? I sure don't, the smell of money generated from wold record bulls that come from very well to do individuals is what Don could see.Watching the way money dictates any and everything SFW involves them selves in turned me away many years ago.Since then there has been scar after scar of shady, undermining, selfish unvailing of things that your oraganzation owns up to.another thought greg if SFW is so wonderful why did arizona just them to the curb when they secretly tried to pass a bill that would give them upto 500 tags that belonged to the state of arizona.Did they tell them to get the hell out because of the honest and wonderul way they have helped wildlife here in Utah?I dont think so.

In the end I'm just a average hunter trying to stand up for my right to hunt.I can see my general deer hunt getting pushed down the same street that our elk got shooved down. this is the only hunt that I can look forward to year after year and I'm not going to be the guy who wishes I had said something after it was to late and I am waiting 15 years to hunt deer on my local general unit.I Can not see how SFW has made hunting for me "better" in any way. I don't have enough funds to hunt out of state every year to broaden my hunting oppurtunities.If i could afford a tag in a couple other surrounding states every year and then hunt in my home state when ever I drew out hey It would probably ease the pain abit but i dont.Over and out I've got to go back to work.
 
SFW is spending money for wildlife. It looks like the money being raised from the hunt expo is going to a good cause.


Per division rule R657-55 the purpose of the program is ?for purposes of generating revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities and attracting a regional or national wildlife convention to Utah"

There was an audit done in 2010. Here is where some of the money went. You be the judge if it fits the intended purpose. Certainly some good causes on the list, but wildilife conservation? Keep in mind of the 3.4 million raised in the first four years only 800k was even accounted for by expo organizers in the audit. In fairness and for the sake of full disclosure about 500k of the 3.4 million did seem to go to good wildlife projects but they are vague in description.

$117,671 - Wolf Litigation/ Washington DC Policy
$21,000 - Donation to Cancer Patients
$20,000 - Orem Pritchett/Tatloil Gift
$14,000 - Jessica Clark Scholarship Fund
$14,000 - Edwards-Beaver Property
$11,000 - Kevin Conway Scholarship Fund
$10,000 - Chance Phelps Endowment Fund
$5,450 - Wyoming/Pinedale
$5,000 - SFW Wyoming
$5,000 - St George Livestock
$5,000 - Eye Donation
$5,000 - Deputy Josie Greathouse
$3,000 - Sean Pearson Cancer

These projects will help our mule deer herds!!!!!

Sounds like this money would have been better spent on wildlife. WHERE IS THE REST OF THE MONEY???
 
hornhunter the banguet i went to last week had tags and zero went to actual attendees. So the tags are not the draw to go to the banguet but just keep pumping out yer bullsh1t lies.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-12 AT 09:44PM (MST)[p]Hogman banquets for the toothless hillbillies don't really count for much. You remind me of the uneducated swamp people on TV. Keep ignoring the facts old man and keep drinking the koolaid. I never knew there was such a thing as an elitehog hunter. Haha Of course there wouldnt be any tags for people at your banquet because no one important enough went.

Don't you see anything wrong with that picture? There were tags but no one at the banquet received one. Most people probably didn't even know the couldn't win one before the banquet. Sounds like a lot disappointed SFW sheep.
 
Wow, the most dangerous people in the world are the uneducated that that believe they are.

Take SFW away right this second and tell me what it fixes? It fixes nothing! Guess what SFW gone will not bring back the deer it will not allow you to buy a tag for whatever unit you want or a statewide tag. It will not solve anything!!! It will not make the conservation or expo tags go away. The only thing it will do is cause the internet whiners to find a new focus to whine about! Which might actaully be a good trade off lately!
 
We didn't need SFW to fix our elk herds and they know they can't receive credit. We don't need SFW to hsve more sheep or moose in Utah. Actually we could probably issue more mature bull elk tags instead of them constantly wanting to raise the age class objectives because their auction tags aren't selling as high as they want them to be. Other States kill almost as many BC bulls as Utah does, but they don't hunt a lot of bulls during the rut with a rifle. They don't have a lot of spike hunts. I remember in a meeting where Don said that he would like to see units managed by the BC score. Most people way over score their bulls. A lot of people can't tell the difference between a 350 bull and a 320 bull.

SFW hasn't fixed anything for 18 years so why should we believe they will now? The GRAMA shows they have been dishonest because a lot of the money hasn't be accounted for, but you completely ignore those facts which baffles me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-12 AT 04:08PM (MST)[p]Cache,

In my post I just asked you a simple question. Are you part of the problem (complaining and not doing anything to help wildlife) or are you part of the solution? I quickly rattled off local projects that SFW has done to help out hunting and fishing. I have not seen you doing anything, but complain. I have met some people that think that they should be able to buy an over the counter deer and elk tag every year, have great hunting, and do nothing to help out.

I'm sure you are a passionate hunter. You can still buy a general elk tag and likly get a northern region unit tag for deer every year.

I have a lifetime license for Utah, get a deer tag every year and have not shot a deer in Utah for about 15 years. The deer hunting on the Cache area is poor despite efforts from conservation groups, emergency feeding, increase cougar harvest etc. Get involved and try to do something to help out.

If you think if SFW went away and all conservation or expo tags would be returned to the DWR, do you really think hunting would be better? I agree with Muley 73.

By the way 90% of all Conservation tag money goes to the DWR for wildlife projects, the other 10% the conservation groups can use for projects and expenses. Where did you come uo with 10% of the money goes to wildlife?
 
SFW is like a cancer. When it started in the early 90's it started at a grass roots level with the average sportsman in mind. Look what it has evolved into today. SFW caters to the wealthy, the landowners, the guides, the outfitters, etc. If you are an average joe that hunts general season hunts and hopes to draw one or two limited entry tags in his lifetime, SFW is not looking out for your interests.

There are many out there, like me, who are former SFW members that have long since jumped ship when they saw what the organization was really about. Unfortunately, the DWR, the Wildlife Board, the Legislature and the Governor are all addicted to the money and influence that is generated by SFW. For instance, although it was allowed by statute, the DWR did not audit the Hunt and Conservation Expo for the first 3 years of its existence. Why not? Because SFW has so much power and influence over the DWR that the DWR thought it was no necessary. How is that for accountability and stewardship. Look no further than the current makeup of the Wildlife Board. One of its members is the former Chairman of SFW. Good luck pushing any issues that are contrary to the agenda of SFW.

So long story short, SFW convinced the State of Utah to set aside hundreds of tags to raise money for wildlife conservation. Now, SFW uses the money generated from those very tags to create power and influence with the DWR and our governmental leaders. As a result, SFW has a tremendous amount of control over hunting and wildlife management in the State of Utah . . . and we gave it to them.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Hawk,

I shoot the same gun as you. Browning SS 300 win mag. We probably have many more things in common than differences. I agree SFW has a lot of power to get things done.

We have people who are pro hunting dirrecting the DWR. Our representatives know that hunting is important to the State of Utah and our heritage in many ways.

Our representatives know that multiple use of our lands are important including access for hunting.

How many states are getting tough on predators and have new funds for coyote control, etc?

Sportsmen were once ignored in the State.

Ranchers said no more elk in many places.

UEA wanted to lease out school trust lands for private hunting.

Utah DWR dirrector said people would always hunt deer, It's a family outing. That was when we had 3-10 bucks per 100 does.

That was when a percentage of oue license money was being used for non game animals. Yes we were funding non game animal projects.

Spring bear hunting was taken away.

So yes SFW has some clout. It also has given sportsmen a voice, and we are no longer neglected.
 
What about Mr. Peay saying that he believes that big game animals should be privately owned? Is that what you want? It is definitely not what I want.
 
Hunting 50,

Can you prove you didn't beat your wife last night? Can I prove things would be better without SFW? No! Can you prove they would be worse?

Now for the original question, SFW came on the scene in Utah and put some weight behind Prop 5, which was a GREAT IDEA, while not members, my family supported this push with calls and letters, etc. It seemed like a group that supported what AVERAGE sportsmen wanted was a great idea. In the begining I believe they were just that. THEN, they found they needed money, buying politicians is expensive. Enter the expo. We saw what was SUPPOSED to be a way to raise money for wildlife, with SFW as the "auctioneer". Good idea, sell some tags, put the money towards wildlife improvement.
So far so good. Then questions come up, how much is going for wildlife, what are the odds? Simple questions with simple answers. When those answers didn't come simply, it raised flags. When an insider(Tony Abbott) started going after what was started(by him), and what had become of it, it raised questions(whether he did it for revenge or the goodness of his heart, his questions were valid, and have been validated as time passes).
What do I think happened? I think Don Peay became enamored with power. I think along the way we forgot that all his power came from his members who, to their credit were out doing grunt work, feeding deer, etc., and started to believe he was the savior of wildlife in this state. He started traveling in circles where professional basketball players talk about 6 figures to hunt deer on a closed island. Where doctors yearly drop a half million to hunt just in Utah. In short, absolute power corrupted absolutely. THEN, the Obama recession hit. Many of his high dollar "friends" had their hunting money hit. Perhaps they agreed with Mossback about there not being a "good enough" elk. So what does a group that is totally dependent on deep pockets and state welfare do? They again go to the average sportsman for a power base(SFW's recent outpouring for support to help the mule deer), while in the back rooms and legislatures pushing for more welfare, and even for locking up ownership of wildlife.
This all being done while their local members are out doing good work, and being put in the position of defending a VERY POLARIZING head.

In short SFW gets their power by pushing for what they want because their leadership is good a focusing a message. Why we have numerous questions/complaints, they have a focused message and populate the RACs with it. They are also very good at PR. While I am at work, THE DON is on capitol hill buying politicians, he has access, I don't.

In short I believe the original, grassroots org. that helped pass prop 5 was a great idea. What has happened since then is the leadership sold out to the highest bidder, and their run of the mill guys still believe in the vision and are commited to it. Too bad their good work is overwhelmed by THE DON.



When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
So we have plenty of support for fighting this group and bringing them under control. So Lets hear some IDEAS, I mentioned some ideas here a while ago and got shot down. Like I mentioned before, if we band together, especially in an election year like this and show in numbers that we want change and it could cost them their jobs if they dont do anything, they will! Dont let Don run this state. Its not his job to manage the deer numbers, its not his job to speak in behalf of this state, and not his job to decide the future of our deer herds. Majority will win over money if the masses are mad!
 
The masses, are not mad...at Don or the SFW. A handful of internet die hards would lead you to believe otherwise.

The truth is the masses will never get involved cause they really dont care that much about any of it. Sure they will say all the guys I talk to hate the SFW. Well all the guys I talk to like the SFW so we both claim the masses.

When there is a so called "call to arms" guess what, SFW has more show up to the battle. This year, last year and the years before. They will continue to do so. Why? Because they do have actual ground level average joe support all across the state. More average joes that do more than set behind a computer and complain. It's how they garner the power they currently have. Its not all wealthy tags and wealthy hunters. Its average joes willing to show up at RAC meetings,WB meetings fundraisers, politcal evens, caucuses. Yes support from average joes that never buy a tag or guide a tag holder. Just average joes that remember where this state was at before the SFW and after the DWR had mismanaged our herds into nothing!

Yes the money now makes them stronger and you are correct that majority will win over money, but the actual involved majority supports the SFW.

Fire away gents, but thats the truth whether you understand it or not.
 
Greg let me spell this out for you as slow as i can.I do NOT complain about how poor the deer hunting is the cache.Infact believe it or not I am quite content with my general hunt here and the number of mature (4 years or older)bucks that one can find with alittle sweat and hard work.What I will and do complain about is reducing opportunity for no other reason than to make hunting easier period.This is exactly what SFW wants.They are always lobbying to reduce opportunity whether it be by raising already ridiculously high age objectives on our elk units or pushing for limited entry buck to doe ratios on our general deer units it's always "the fewer the tags the better" mentality period.To be quite honest I'm tired of people like yourself complaining that they can't find a descent buck .You said it yourself 15 years is along time!I'm sure there is more than alittle complaining coming from your end on this issue.I know this might sound alittle crazy but if the old honey hole that dad and uncle Bob used to knock em dead in hasn't been producing the size of bucks your looking for maybe it's time to try something different before you start pushing to reduce tags simply because you are not willing to put in the hard work and effort to kill one.

And I do fully understand how the 2 separate set of expo tags work.conservation tags do exactly as you stated but the other set is the one everyone is pissed about .You do realize that the convention tags and the conservation tags are two separate things right? You keep posting responses inregards to the conservation tags when everyone is giping over the convention tags and how a very small percentage of money made from these tags that were given to the SFW is actually going back into bettering our wildlife.I got the 10% by looking at money that was generated(3.4MILLION!) and the money that actually hit the ground from the convention tags not the conservation tags!
 
I don't believe your qualified to speak for the masses. Neither am I, but more and more hunters are waking up because of the recent changes. They are realizing the corruption that the "Don" has brought to Utah. SFW doesn't have as big a membership group as you would like people to believe.
 
I agree Muley 73. Lot's of support, big crowds, and excitment with banquets all over the state. If you don't get a ticket two weeks in advance for some SFW banquets, you won't be going.
 
Deerlove,
I would not be able to give you a number. I am just an average joe that gives support.

Elite,
You are right I don't speak for the masses. And neither does anyone else. That is my point. However when ever there is opportunity to speak more actually show up that are supporters of the SFW than are against it.
 
The only person that really shows up is Don because he gets paid. Don has a lot of influence over the wildlife board. A lot of other SFW supporters get up and they waste everyone's time with their long draw out speeches that mean nothing. Most of the outcomes of the Wildlife Board meetings have already been decided long before the meeting even started.

A lot of people have to work so they aren't able to attend the wildlife board meetings or they live farther away. I do know that a lot of people send emails to wildlife board members, but I really don't know how much time they spend reading them.
 
Elite there is no hope for you. If you really cared that much you would go to your rac and voice your opinion. Im really curious what the turnout will be at the southern rac in support of the DWR's proposals? My guess is there will be more in line with the goals the SFW support than yours.
 
Wow!! I really don't even know what to say right now except, WHERE IN THE WORLD DO YOU SFW HATERS GET YOUR INFO?? Have you ever heard of fact finding? Try it, it might change your opinion, because that is exactly what all of this SFW bashing is, just some uneducated people's opinion. I have been apart of this great organization for too many years to count and have had the opportunity to see how things work up close. First, until all of you haters out there come to any of our meetings with Don and the other Men and Women fighting for your hunting quality and rights, you would have no clue what these people are up against themselves. They actually sit for hours hashing out with other Sportsman the best way to get things accomplished and changed for you the hunter. It's exhausting and sometimes impossible to please everyone, but the point is, everyone has a say so and Don will stay all night to make sure everyone is heard and on the same page. He does it because he cares about hunting, the hunters and Utah. I would hope that someone who spends that much time away from his Family, getting personally attacked for trying to help ungrateful people and fighting against some pretty powerful groups would be getting paid, who wouldn't. I don't know what we would have for hunting if SFW didn't step up to the plate and get things done, who else is willing to help?? Ps, things cost money and that donated money is accounted for time and time again, all you have to do is put in 1/4 of the time we do fighting and find out. We are obviously doing something right, people keep paying and showing up to the expo and banquets, so go figure. If you hunt at all and are passionate about the future of hunting, especially the declining deer herds, you might want to join the group that has the best chance of making positive impacts on what may no longer be. I guess what I am really trying to say is, we don't make the rules, we just fight for better ones, we fight for you! I would never preach, try to sale or be apart of something I didn't truly believe in, so do what I did and find out what SFW really stands for and come to just one meeting, they are open to the public.
 
How sad you feel this way about Don. I guess I know the down to earth, fight for the average Joe, hobnob with the average Joe and totally commited to the average Joe hunter Don. Oh yeah, how I know this, I go to meetings and educate myself. Try it! Everyone has access to politicians, it's called voting and supporting, Don just happens to be the guy speaking on our behave to those politicians. Btw, if SFW was so good at PR work, we would be putting out all the "atta boys" for everyone to see so we wouldn't be taking so much grief all of the time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-12 AT 06:36PM (MST)[p]I have posted the FACTS about SFW, but yet you totally ignore them. The SFW koolaid blinds your common sense.

Hoghunter, I have been to more RAC and Wildlife Board meetings that I want to count.
 
Great post. All the FACTS add up to the only group making a real positive difference for the future of all UT hunters. Perfect? No not at all. The best thing we have got or had? Absolutely!
 
Girl hunter, Muley, how many would show up if ther wasnt tags to auction? Sure I bet there would be some, but do you really think that without the tags you would draw those crowds?

Second, ever notice the bucks/bulls RAC takes place when a lot of guys are STILL HUNTING? Why is that?

Third, WHERE IS THE SUCCESS????? Spike elk units(which built the current elk pop.) came BEFORE SFW. MULE DEER ARE DECLINING. MOOSE ARE DECLINING. MOST OF N. UTAH IS NOW LANDLOCKED. OH YEAH, LAST WEEK WOLVES MAGICALLY APPEARED!!! So we have a handful of sheep, and some goats and SFW is the greatest thing since white bread. Other than Prop 5, which I give a lot of credit to SFW for, what have they done, other than back room deal and fragment the hunting populations? Scoreboard, that is proof. I send DU money, we have record ducks, and record seasons, and have had them for a decade or better. You send SFW money, and you lose hunters, tags, land, etc. You can tell me all about the guys out doing on the ground work, and I commend them, but why does ORRIN call THE DON? MONEY, not deer feeding, not chaining, not planting, but because THE DON has friends who hunt $225,000 deer, or $250,000 elk, etc, etc. And those are the people THE DON caters to, and they are the reason ORRIN calls THE DON , he needs those friends as well.They are the ONLY ONES who have gained anything from SFW in the last decade.


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
We didn't need sfw to have better elk hunting. Conservation money can be raised without sfw. SFW hasn't fix our deer herds which was the reason they were founded. Now the think they can double our deer herds in 3 to 5 years. More excuses will come they fail at that too. FACT more opportunities have been lost since sfw took power
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-12 AT 12:04PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-12 AT 12:03?PM (MST)

Hossblur. I have no idea how many would show up or not and am not going to pretend I do. I do know I go and so do alot of my Friends and neighbors, as well as put in countless hours through out the year to make it a success. That being said, none of those people including myself have ever went because there were going to be tags auctioned. We do it because we believe in it and are trying to make a change in the right direction. It's not going to happen over night no matter how much money is involved or how much Don is or isn't doing. The problem with the deer herd has alot of variables to the equation; predators, more hunters, better weapons, better optics, more accessibility and having hunts during the wrong times. It all adds up and I am just as frustrated as you are and had a feeling it would end up like this a long time ago. I am still in shock that I can hike my ass off for days on end and see nothing. But do I blame one organization or one Man, of course not and neither should you. There have been RAC meetings through out the year, not just during the hunts, I know because my Husband sits thru them until 1 in the morning trying to make a change to our deer herd, It's everyone's problem so everyone should get on the same page and get something done. There is power in numbers and knowledge!!
 
Not at all, I did what you should have, I read the DWR's proposal's and then lisented for hours on end the other night how we, the SFW are going to try and fight it. Try and stop with the "koolaid" line, it's over used now.
 
Girl hunter,

Your right there are other RAC's. But the Bucks and Bulls is when hunters are out hunting, almost as if by design. If they were in Dec. guys who "hiked there asses off" and saw nothing might show up pissed.

Second, THE DON IS A PROBLEM!! No matter how much "work" you do, THE DON is fragmenting utahs hunters. Heres a challenge for you. You and I call THE DON. Lets see if all your work gets an answer. I'll call and say I would like to right a 5k check, but would like to bend his ear first, who do you think gets the call?
Why didn't THE DON reward his faithful followers and get the Antelope Island tag for them, not a deep pocket. Or even make it so the draw hunter got the 5 day head start? When did you vote for THE DON to be your leader? When is the next board election? Doesn't it concern you that you are now a "socialist" and a occupy wallstreeter because your not a deep pocket?(Both Dons phrases) How many other hunters do you think don't "get on board" because THE DON is in a leadership position? SFW has helped to end hunting for more people in 1 year than PETA and the HUMANE SOCIETY have ever, doesn't that seem odd for a group that supports "the average joe"? How much money does THE DON need to fix mule deer? Or is he just a televangelist who keeps needing for for our salvation?

Thanks for you individual hard work, I sure hope that in the end its not folks like you wanting something, and the Denny Austads of the world wanting something else, sure will suck for you to be with us other "socialist, wall street occupiers"


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
First hossblur, I am a Girl hiking my ass off, not a guy and second I do understand to some degree what you are saying, So contact Don and have a one on one with him and see if that helps. Btw, I am in no way, shape or form a Socialist thank you! I'm sorry your so upset and will work on coming up with better, fact based answers for you.
 
same #$@# new post sfw bad dp bad dwr not to blame if i were in charge everything would be better! but no one has a real solution just a bunch of bs !! someone show me where all the expo tags came from the non-res pool . someone come up with something illegal that sfw has done and you could stop it right now!
 
It's m opinion that sfw hasn't done anything that would be construed as illegal in a court of law. Simply put, they were able to secure arbibrary language in the bills/regs that set up the tags. It was a smart move on their part, or DP's part.
 
Hossblur, it looks like to me you can't wait for an SFW topic to come up so you can vent your frustrations, that I supose come from never killing anything worth posting. What have you done to help help fix the deer problem?
 
>First hossblur, I am a Girl
>hiking my ass off, not
>a guy and second I
>do understand to some degree
>what you are saying, So
>contact Don and have a
>one on one with him
>and see if that helps.
>Btw, I am in no
>way, shape or form a
>Socialist thank you! I'm sorry
>your so upset and will
>work on coming up with
>better, fact based answers for
>you.

Yeah I kinda got that from the "girlhunter" part, but thanks for clarifying. Second, I don't think your a socialist, THE DON does. Do a small search on here and you can find the link to the quote from THE DON. You guys are right though, obviously. Since SFW started saving the mule deer there has been an explosion in herd numbers. Since SFW started saving hunting for the average joe, we've lost 150,000 of them. Unfortunately, at some point your either successful or you failed. The DWR failed decades ago, thats why SFW came around. Using there definition of how the DWR failed, SFW has failed. Drink the coolaid if you want, but facts are a stubborn thing.



When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
Geez, no need to be so mean, I just didn't know if you knew or not. I agree with Ottercreekkid, it just seems like you want someone to blame it on and tag, SFW is it! No big deal, it's easy to blame when your doing nothing. Wow, again with the koolaid, how original. Lets just agree to disagree ok, this is getting old. I will keep fighting for our deer herd through SFW and you keep complaining. Fair enough??
 
>Geez, no need to be so
>mean, I just didn't know
>if you knew or not.
>I agree with Ottercreekkid, it
>just seems like you want
>someone to blame it on
>and tag, SFW is it!
>No big deal, it's easy
>to blame when your doing
>nothing. Wow, again with the
>koolaid, how original. Lets just
>agree to disagree ok, this
>is getting old. I will
>keep fighting for our deer
>herd through SFW and you
>keep complaining. Fair enough??


What do I blame it on? Actually I blame it on evolution. I believe that of all the big game animals(short of big horn sheep) that mule deer are the weakest. They are picky eaters, they don't adapt well to differing climates. They don't compete well with elk. They aren't prolific breeders. All of which has made them very susceptable to the encroachment of man, highways, weather, etc. I don't really buy that there is one silver bullet as to why they are in the decline, as I don't believe their is one fix other than not hunting them at all/closing units. At a time when there are Elk in Kentucky, and whitetails coming into Utah, mule deer are disapearing. I love to hunt deer. I love to watch them, but they have become the hunting communities California Condor, in that the only way to save them is to stop hunting them, anything else is just a "fart in the wind". So no SFW didn't cause the problem, BUT they didn't, and I believe can't fix it either, and giving them a ton of my money and my hunting privledges won't change anything no matter how important THE DON claims he is. Last I checked coyotes eat whitetails, so do cats, wolves and bears. They live where there is winter, people, highways, etc, yet their numbers are exploding, simply because evolutionarily speaking they are superior to muleys, and in nature only the strong survive.



When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
Wow!! I guess we should just give up on saving them Hoss. Maybe by creating a food source away from the highways we will have less road kill, get rid of a few coyotes and stop the wolves from over populating, Wait I think that is what Don spending SFW's money on. Who else is?
 
Ummmm, it's not sfw's money...wanna guess who's? Who else is spending money on wildlife? Every damn hunter who buys a tag and license!
 
wuffie, are you saying the DWR is paying for,with our tag and license money, all the chaining and reseeding that is being done? That money is comming from you and me and other banquet goers. Re-seeding wasn't happening by the DWR until private money made it happen.
 
I started the post as I was frustrated with what I thought was abuse by a few to obtain the best tags if they had enough money at the expense of all the other hunters who are have nots. However, I see from many of the posts that quite a bit of that money is making it back into the habitat and may be benefiting wildlife. I applaud them for this. At the same time I do remained convinced that there is significant abuse of public money occurring after the many informative posts. I do hope that money that actually gets through for the wildlife is making a big difference and hunting is much improved from when I grew up, lived and hunted in Utah. Unfortunately, I will probably never know as this money has caused a native Utahn, but now a non-resident to have very little if any chance to ever hunt these areas. I guess sacrifices must be made for this system, it is too bad that it is all at the expense of the non-resident who doesn't want to pay big bucks. I don't agree with the system, but many do. And I will have to disagree with them on this. I am very happy that Arizonans have stood up and at this point agreed that this system is not the best system as I have not seen any better management in Utah vs Arizona and Utah has certainly had enough time to prove their European model. My take is that the money guys in Utah are certainly better organized than the have nots and that is why such a small number can continue this system, as certainly the majority of the Utahns I have spoken with do disagree with the system.
 
Tooele, I agree with you, public money is being abused. SFW has/does do good work. There boots on the ground folks do good projects, and good work. HOWEVER, none of them have access to money. The guys at the top, mostly THE DON, but not only him are on a different plane. THE DON has become a power broker in Utah. After years spent on capitol hill he has become one of them. He no longer has core beliefs, he horse trades, and of late(wolves, stream access to name a few) he trades even his SFW supporters to get power(the stream access was about powerful people and THE DON making allys). SFW did prop 5 which was GREAT, and because of it they got a lot of support and "capital" from even those outside of SFW. But like all abusive husbands they beat you up the give you something to show love. We got prop 5, we lost 300 tags, 150,000 deer hunters to pay for it. We got some highway fence, we lost a game preserve(antelope island). so on and so on.
Without the welfare money from the state, SFW would cease to exist. They are not RMEF or DU, they are simply a lobbying group for deep pocketed interests.


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
Hossblur, Just wanted to let you know there is a RAC meeting in Greenriver Wed night. I think it's at 6 or 7. Thought you would want to know since it's about the bucks and bulls and it's not during a hunt! Hope to see ya there.
 
>Girl hunter, Muley, how many would
>show up if ther wasnt
>tags to auction? Sure
>I bet there would be
>some, but do you really
>think that without the tags
>you would draw those crowds?
>
>
>Second, ever notice the bucks/bulls RAC
>takes place when a lot
>of guys are STILL HUNTING?
> Why is that?
>
>Third, WHERE IS THE SUCCESS?????
>Spike elk units(which built the
>current elk pop.) came BEFORE
>SFW. MULE DEER ARE
>DECLINING. MOOSE ARE DECLINING.
> MOST OF N. UTAH
>IS NOW LANDLOCKED. OH
>YEAH, LAST WEEK WOLVES MAGICALLY
>APPEARED!!! So we have
>a handful of sheep, and
>some goats and SFW is
>the greatest thing since white
>bread. Other than Prop
>5, which I give a
>lot of credit to SFW
>for, what have they done,
>other than back room deal
>and fragment the hunting populations?
> Scoreboard, that is proof.
> I send DU money,
>we have record ducks, and
>record seasons, and have had
>them for a decade or
>better. You send SFW
>money, and you lose hunters,
>tags, land, etc.
>You can tell me all
>about the guys out doing
>on the ground work, and
>I commend them, but why
>does ORRIN call THE DON?
> MONEY, not deer feeding,
>not chaining, not planting, but
>because THE DON has friends
>who hunt $225,000 deer, or
>$250,000 elk, etc, etc.
>And those are the people
>THE DON caters to, and
>they are the reason ORRIN
>calls THE DON , he
>needs those friends as well.They
>are the ONLY ONES who
>have gained anything from SFW
>in the last decade.
>
>
>When they came for the road
>hunters I was not one
>so I said nothing.
>When they came for the
>oppurtunists I was not one
>so I said nothing.
>When they came for the
>public land hunters I was
>not one so I said
>nothing. When they came
>for me there was no
>one left to say anything!
>


hoss

hate to rain on on your anti sfw parade but most banquets have 10-12 tags for sale and only 10-12 people are their to buy tags so i guess the answer to your question about 99% would still be there to support wildlife instead of sitting home bitchen at their computer
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-12 AT 08:24AM (MST)[p]Hmmm Tikka, you noticed that too:) Sorry Hossblur, the meeting is in Price tonight at 5, not Greenriver. Have a great day!!!
 
If you really want to know about SFW call me. I helped build them from nearly extinction to events in Wyoming, Idaho, NM and 20 events in Utah. Unlike ANY of these guys posting on this topic I was at the VAST majority of events and meetings during their growth.

Send me a message or call me and I will be glad to tell you my experience and knowledge with the SFW experiment.

801-885-1274

Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
>If you really want to know
>about SFW call me. I
>helped build them from nearly
>extinction to events in Wyoming,
>Idaho, NM and 20 events
>in Utah. Unlike ANY of
>these guys posting on this
>topic I was at the
>VAST majority of events and
>meetings during their growth.
>
>Send me a message or call
>me and I will be
>glad to tell you my
>experience and knowledge with the
>SFW experiment.
>
>801-885-1274

Blah blah blah I I I me me me me same old ##### different day!!!

Flame on fishon....




>
>Tony Abbott
>The next buck to have a
>fawn will be the
>1st.
 
Kris

Is there something wrong with me offering my vast knowledge from my extensive association with a group to someone looking for information on a subject? You and the cronies are laughable. Drink the kool aid bro. One day you will actually face the truth and realize that it is not the way you so desperately want it to be.

Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Its kinda laughable you have a vast knowledge of anything other than yourself.
 
Actually your ignorance is laughable. What do you know about my knowledge? Nothing, just like you know nothing about what is going on with Utah's wildlife.



Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 

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