Question about Improving my rifle
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Paul_Crawford
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Yup, leave 'er alone. 1/2 groups are fine!!!! pc
muzz
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I am serious. i can get it to shoot like that after but i am just tossing the idea around. Im just wondering what the hype is over the Ackley vrs. the 280 normal. I see 150 fps gain but to me that dont seem worth it unless its more then that and a huge difference. Just some thoughts on it and what do owners think?
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sageadvice
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Muzz, Both the 280 Rem and the 280AI are great cartridges.
When i rebarreled a old favorite Remington 700, much thought went into exactly which chambering among many was going to be just right for the hunting and shooting that i like to do. I chose the 280AI for a little extra energy out there at 4-500 yds and only regret that i picked out a little too heavy of a barrel. Accuracy from the get go has been outstanding and my pet load shoots 140 grain pills chronograph at 3250 fps. That is about all you can get from a 7mm Rem Mag, not bad for the old '06 case.
Joey
When i rebarreled a old favorite Remington 700, much thought went into exactly which chambering among many was going to be just right for the hunting and shooting that i like to do. I chose the 280AI for a little extra energy out there at 4-500 yds and only regret that i picked out a little too heavy of a barrel. Accuracy from the get go has been outstanding and my pet load shoots 140 grain pills chronograph at 3250 fps. That is about all you can get from a 7mm Rem Mag, not bad for the old '06 case.
Joey
muzz
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I dont need more gun, I am comfortable shooting anything with my 280. Just alot of talk about the 280AI and am curious is to do it to mine or not. I would like to find an old 06 and improve it. But then agin i dont think i need it. I would like to chrono my 280 now and see what its shooting.
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sageadvice
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Muzz, You answered your own question. If you aren't looking or interested in increasing the ballistic capabilities of your .280, IMO, it would be stupid to convert to .280AI, especially when your gun shoots so well as is.
I chambered in .280AI because i "had" to put a new barrel on the gun, no matter what, anyway. Also, the AI would be a great choice if a guy was "building" a gun. The AI version gives me plenty of down range energy on any game animal i care to hunt at ranges that i've proven to be more than capable of making.
The difference between my AI loading vs Factory .280 loading is considerable but would only be noticed in holdover and retained energy out beyond 300 yds.
Joey
I chambered in .280AI because i "had" to put a new barrel on the gun, no matter what, anyway. Also, the AI would be a great choice if a guy was "building" a gun. The AI version gives me plenty of down range energy on any game animal i care to hunt at ranges that i've proven to be more than capable of making.
The difference between my AI loading vs Factory .280 loading is considerable but would only be noticed in holdover and retained energy out beyond 300 yds.
Joey
Joey, I have an old Sedgley custom rifle. It was originally a 1903 Springfield army rifle but was customized sometimes in the 1940's. The barrel is 'not so good' from having corrosive ammunition being used and the barrel was not cleaned as often or as well as it should have been. In other words, poor accuracy is the norm for this fine old rifle. Have a question for you here: Could I have my Sedgley re-barreled with a .280 barrel and the bullet would fit in the chamber/magazine mighty fine? Is the .280 a .30-06 necked down to the .280 caliber? Read your post and was wondering if I could make my .30-06 into a .280. Any info would be appreciated.
Idahoron
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I don't have my loading info right in front of me but I think the 280 is a little bit longer. While the 06 cases would work you would most likely get better results with brass that was a closer fit for length. The switch to a 280 AI would be a cake walk for a gun smith. If I were going to go this route I might think about a different cartridge. I would probably go with a 264-06 with a real fast twist for long bullets. Ron
Could a man purchase factory .264-06 ammunition? I never was much into the hand loading of rifle or pistol bullets. Many hunters are though and I could get a skilled shooting buddy to probably load me this caliber. Would this cartridge be "big and powerful" enough for elk hunting?
sageadvice
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Cowtag, I don't think that you are going to find any 6.5-06 ammo on the shelves, not yet anyway. My re-barreled semi-custom actually started out as a 25-06 before i damaged the barrel and built it back up by some basic upgrades and the new stainless .280AI barrel.
Yes, once you re-barrel, use a good gunsmith, you are basically set to shoot which ever cartridge you chose providing the action length and bolt face are compatible. The 26-05, .270 Winchester, .280 Remington, and 30-06 are all from the same parent '06 case. I'm not sure about your action, no experience with it so maybe others here can advise.
Joey
Yes, once you re-barrel, use a good gunsmith, you are basically set to shoot which ever cartridge you chose providing the action length and bolt face are compatible. The 26-05, .270 Winchester, .280 Remington, and 30-06 are all from the same parent '06 case. I'm not sure about your action, no experience with it so maybe others here can advise.
Joey
Roy
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Well Muzz - didn't mean to mock you at all with my first post. I just don't understand what you would gain by changing your current set up at all.
You say you shoot 1/2" groups and you are comfortable with the .280 to hunt anything so there is your answer right there. Hunting is all about shot placement regardless of caliber. A .22 will take down pretty much any North American big game animal with the right shot placement. The .280 will do the same at distances of up to 600 yards without any problems whatsoever. If you can put that bullet where you want it consistently, I don't see any need to try to "improve" or "upgrade". I think you have been reading too much - ;-)! I don't think you would see too much improvement over what you already have.
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
You say you shoot 1/2" groups and you are comfortable with the .280 to hunt anything so there is your answer right there. Hunting is all about shot placement regardless of caliber. A .22 will take down pretty much any North American big game animal with the right shot placement. The .280 will do the same at distances of up to 600 yards without any problems whatsoever. If you can put that bullet where you want it consistently, I don't see any need to try to "improve" or "upgrade". I think you have been reading too much - ;-)! I don't think you would see too much improvement over what you already have.
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
sageadvice
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Roy, you should stick to things that you know about!
Joey
Joey
Roy
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-11 AT 10:10PM (MST)[p]Well Joey - just trying to be practical - not technical - go ahead and educate me then. I promise I won't be offended.
And frankly, I don't really see where I am off base - maybe off on my yardage a little for most practical purposes, but I know for a fact a .280 is good up to 600 yards if you know what you are doing with it, and that at the right distance (yes maybe only 2 ft. ;-) )and in the right place (right behind the ear) a .22 will bring down a 1400 lb. steer! So yeah, that really isn't all that practical and is a little bit of an overstatement of the actual facts and you aren't going to do that in reality. BUT - what I am saying is that if you want to improve to maybe lets say 1/4 inch or 1/8 inch groups for competion shooting or something then yes, ugrading to the Ackley Improved will likely bring the results you want - at least it is supposed to (if you are a good enough shooter to do that in the first place). But it seems like Muzz wants to just use it for hunting and to me, a .280 shooting 1/2 inch groups is pretty freaking good. Now maybe I say this because I am assuming that Muzz is going to mainly use this for elk and deer - he can correct me if I am wrong - and my basic philosophy is that if you are comfortable with a rifle and can kill consistently with it, then that is the perfect rifle for you. I shoot a Golden Eagle .30-06 and have killed everything I have ever pointed it at so as long as it is working good - I ain't changing it. BTW - I can only get as good as 3 inch groups with it at the range, but the last few deer I have killed with it didn't need a second shot so that is kind of just an academic stat to me.
A lot of people have written a lot about the Ackley Improved and I think that right now it is one of those really trendy calibers and for good reason. It performs very well and the ballistics back up the hype, but it is still mainly going to be a hand-loaded caliber. Sure you will be able to find some factory ammo, but as pointed out previously, I don't think the work and hassle is worth the improvements especially if you are already shooting that well with a .280.
So Muzz - I guess my advice to you is this - that .280 sound like a killing machine, I'd keep it around. If you want a .280 AI then I would get a whole new rifle, dollar for dollar you are going to be about even when it is said and done in my estimation.
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
And frankly, I don't really see where I am off base - maybe off on my yardage a little for most practical purposes, but I know for a fact a .280 is good up to 600 yards if you know what you are doing with it, and that at the right distance (yes maybe only 2 ft. ;-) )and in the right place (right behind the ear) a .22 will bring down a 1400 lb. steer! So yeah, that really isn't all that practical and is a little bit of an overstatement of the actual facts and you aren't going to do that in reality. BUT - what I am saying is that if you want to improve to maybe lets say 1/4 inch or 1/8 inch groups for competion shooting or something then yes, ugrading to the Ackley Improved will likely bring the results you want - at least it is supposed to (if you are a good enough shooter to do that in the first place). But it seems like Muzz wants to just use it for hunting and to me, a .280 shooting 1/2 inch groups is pretty freaking good. Now maybe I say this because I am assuming that Muzz is going to mainly use this for elk and deer - he can correct me if I am wrong - and my basic philosophy is that if you are comfortable with a rifle and can kill consistently with it, then that is the perfect rifle for you. I shoot a Golden Eagle .30-06 and have killed everything I have ever pointed it at so as long as it is working good - I ain't changing it. BTW - I can only get as good as 3 inch groups with it at the range, but the last few deer I have killed with it didn't need a second shot so that is kind of just an academic stat to me.
A lot of people have written a lot about the Ackley Improved and I think that right now it is one of those really trendy calibers and for good reason. It performs very well and the ballistics back up the hype, but it is still mainly going to be a hand-loaded caliber. Sure you will be able to find some factory ammo, but as pointed out previously, I don't think the work and hassle is worth the improvements especially if you are already shooting that well with a .280.
So Muzz - I guess my advice to you is this - that .280 sound like a killing machine, I'd keep it around. If you want a .280 AI then I would get a whole new rifle, dollar for dollar you are going to be about even when it is said and done in my estimation.
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
sageadvice
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The man is using factory ammo. No shot at any game, let alone the biggest, should ever be taken with factory 280 Rem ammo at 600 yds. Now if you reload and use the best and highest of BC bullets, maybe. There is just is not the down range energy to be taking bigger animals with factory stuff much past 400 yds.
Now, if you "improve" the 280 Rem, you can add AT LEAST 100Yds and still have the same foot lbs of retained energy. It's not hype or magic, the AI version is just a better engineered case that is more efficient and definitely has better down range ballistic capabilities.
Joey
Now, if you "improve" the 280 Rem, you can add AT LEAST 100Yds and still have the same foot lbs of retained energy. It's not hype or magic, the AI version is just a better engineered case that is more efficient and definitely has better down range ballistic capabilities.
Joey
Roy
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Good points Joey - and see my edits above. We are on the same page basically.
I agree with you on the 400 yards. I really don't think that the majority of people - regardless of the rifle - should be taking manny 600 yard shots at live game. My 600 yards comment is considering those factors and "all things being equal" - so it is theoretical only - though I have seen a cow elk drop at 642 yards with one shot with a .280. They guy knew what he was doing, was confident in his load (yes - a hand load) and had the right scope and down she went.
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
I agree with you on the 400 yards. I really don't think that the majority of people - regardless of the rifle - should be taking manny 600 yard shots at live game. My 600 yards comment is considering those factors and "all things being equal" - so it is theoretical only - though I have seen a cow elk drop at 642 yards with one shot with a .280. They guy knew what he was doing, was confident in his load (yes - a hand load) and had the right scope and down she went.
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
sageadvice
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Roy, You are just babbling on with little knowledge of the subject... When you say stuff like,
"BUT - what I am saying is that if you want to improve to maybe lets say 1/4 inch or 1/8 inch groups for competion shooting or something then yes, ugrading to the Ackley Improved will likely bring the results you want - at least it is supposed to (if you are a good enough shooter to do that in the first place)."
It proves it!
If someone here ever plans to shoot at elk or moose at ranges beyond 400 yds, get or use a more powerful gun than the 7mm-08 or 280 Rem., basically the same thing!
Joey
"BUT - what I am saying is that if you want to improve to maybe lets say 1/4 inch or 1/8 inch groups for competion shooting or something then yes, ugrading to the Ackley Improved will likely bring the results you want - at least it is supposed to (if you are a good enough shooter to do that in the first place)."
It proves it!
If someone here ever plans to shoot at elk or moose at ranges beyond 400 yds, get or use a more powerful gun than the 7mm-08 or 280 Rem., basically the same thing!
Joey
muzz
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I take no offense in the coments above. I hand load my shells and I know where there shooting and my ballistics. I was just curious if it was worth it from 280AI owners to do this. Half inch groups is very consistent with this rifle but depending on how im shooting on a certian day i have made one hole groups with it. I agree it would be stupid to possibly ruin this rifle from what its doing right now. I was a magnumn guy for awhile and after awhile i realized it was kinda dumb when i could kill everything with a smaller gun that didnt kick my ass when i shot, and i was more comfortable and confident shooting. I am currently shooting 140 accubonds and am thinkin of workin up another load with the berger 168. The ballistics arent much differnt with the heavier bullet and retains more energy, If i can get money to reload some test loads and can get it to shoot where this is shooting with the accubonds im in. Then maybe down the road i can build my other gun i have wanted for years. The remington 6mm remington mag. Now your talkin about a canyon hopper!!
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sageadvice
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Cowtag, First you say,
"Could a man purchase factory .264-06 ammunition? I never was much into the hand loading of rifle or pistol bullets. Many hunters are though and I could get a skilled shooting buddy to probably load me this caliber."
Then you say, "I take no offense in the coments above. I hand load my shells and I know where there shooting and my ballistics."
WTF? I'm thinking that you are just trying to stir the pot and as full of BS as Roy!
Joey
"Could a man purchase factory .264-06 ammunition? I never was much into the hand loading of rifle or pistol bullets. Many hunters are though and I could get a skilled shooting buddy to probably load me this caliber."
Then you say, "I take no offense in the coments above. I hand load my shells and I know where there shooting and my ballistics."
WTF? I'm thinking that you are just trying to stir the pot and as full of BS as Roy!
Joey
sageadvice
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Yes, i did confuse the two of you. My apologies!!
Joey
Joey
muzz, Good luck with the Bergers. They seem to be gaining quite a reputation. I have a load with the 190 in my .300 RUM that is scary accurate, but I'm a little leery of using it on game. I'm gonna put a few 168 grainers through the old '06. If you do load them, look at the Berger site for some good info on seating depth. mtmuley
muzz
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ya i hav e shot them out of one other rifle, they like to be close to the lands. Pressures were up so i had to load down to get the accuracy. Hoping i can get something better with this gun. If i can get them to shoot close to 25 thousands off the lands i will fell better.
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Roy
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LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-11 AT 08:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-11 AT 08:37?PM (MST)
Joey - whatever dude. If you are going to quote me, make sure you read everything I have to say. The next line (after the part you quoted) and my next comment (#16) say exactly what you said I didn't say.
Sorry muzz, - didn't mean to hijack the thread by spouting off my infinite wisdom or sage advice. Just wanted to offer something practical.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
Joey - whatever dude. If you are going to quote me, make sure you read everything I have to say. The next line (after the part you quoted) and my next comment (#16) say exactly what you said I didn't say.
Sorry muzz, - didn't mean to hijack the thread by spouting off my infinite wisdom or sage advice. Just wanted to offer something practical.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
sageadvice
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Roy said, "Well Joey - just trying to be practical - not technical - go ahead and educate me then. I promise I won't be offended."
Promise huh? As i recommended Roy, you should stick to things that you know about, practical or whatever. Throughout all of your ramblings above, there is a thing or two there worth repeating but most of it is just pure BS. You probably know how it is when talking to someone and you can tell within seconds that they don't know jack on the subject...that is what your comments lead me to believe.
BTW, i could have quoted much more but did what i did because it was so off the wall and not true at all, going to the AI for better accuracy, i could not believe someone that knows anything at all about cartridges would ever say that.
No biggie Roy. You generally have great comments, well worth reading.
Joey
Promise huh? As i recommended Roy, you should stick to things that you know about, practical or whatever. Throughout all of your ramblings above, there is a thing or two there worth repeating but most of it is just pure BS. You probably know how it is when talking to someone and you can tell within seconds that they don't know jack on the subject...that is what your comments lead me to believe.
BTW, i could have quoted much more but did what i did because it was so off the wall and not true at all, going to the AI for better accuracy, i could not believe someone that knows anything at all about cartridges would ever say that.
No biggie Roy. You generally have great comments, well worth reading.
Joey
one_dryboot
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Wow joey, you sound like the playground bully that only wants to hear himself and pick a fight just to do it. Roy gave great advice or you could say "sageadvice" you sure made a big deal over nothing. Good job!
completesportsman
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http://www.jarrettrifles.com/calibers.html
Above is an interesting link for Jarrett Rifles Pet Cartridges. If you scroll down and click on the learn more tag under 280AI you can read more.
I had a rifle built last year. I wanted to do a 280AI but I had an action with a magnum bolt face so instead I went with a 7mm Rem Mag. My buddy also had a rifle built, he had a standard bolt face action (.473 I think) and he went 280AI. Every load he has tested in that rifle has shot 1/2" or less groups. His barrel is a #5 contour Krieger, kinda heavy I guess but it shoots great. I think the 280AI is an excellent cartridge and has the cool factor.
If it were me I would keep shooting the 280 Rem as is and when you think the barrel is wore out then re-barrel and go 280AI. Either one should do what you want to do with it.
my .02
Above is an interesting link for Jarrett Rifles Pet Cartridges. If you scroll down and click on the learn more tag under 280AI you can read more.
I had a rifle built last year. I wanted to do a 280AI but I had an action with a magnum bolt face so instead I went with a 7mm Rem Mag. My buddy also had a rifle built, he had a standard bolt face action (.473 I think) and he went 280AI. Every load he has tested in that rifle has shot 1/2" or less groups. His barrel is a #5 contour Krieger, kinda heavy I guess but it shoots great. I think the 280AI is an excellent cartridge and has the cool factor.
If it were me I would keep shooting the 280 Rem as is and when you think the barrel is wore out then re-barrel and go 280AI. Either one should do what you want to do with it.
my .02
D
dleonard3
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I asked a reputable gunsmith if he could run a 22-250 Ackley Improved reamer into my standard 22-250 chamber, and he said he could but I probably wouldn't like what I ended up with. I was under the impression that "Ackley" improving an existing chamber doesn't work very well because the existing chamber most likely isn't tight enough to keep the Ackley reamer aligned while cutting. It would be better if you were having a new chamber cut into a new unchambered barrel.
