Public land grazing opinion

T

TJD (Guest)

Guest
How come many of the rancher's out west feel that the public land is for their cattle consumption. I think that the amount of grazing on public land is way out of balance. The cattle business claims that people will be out of work and I feel for them. If we cut taxs then many people in the government bureacrcy would be out of work too. It's about doing what's right. I realize if I was involved in the ranching business I'd probablly feel different. But ranching is such a small minority of people who utilize public lands. Maybe I'm just tired of seeing more cows and cow patties in wilderness areas than game. And I'd rather eat a deer or elk that I harvested than beef.
 
Cry me a river TJD, EVERYONE that hunts out here in the west has to deal with the issue of ranching and cattle. Not just you. Arizona is mainly public land and nearly all of it is grazed by cattle, leased by ranchers, etc. But SUCCESSFUL HUNTERS DEAL with it! They ignore the inconvenience of cattle and just HUNT! Don't blame cattle and ranchers for your inabilities as a hunter. A little more hard work on your part while hunting should get you into game. Do your homework and scout. Using ranching as the scapegoat for your unsuccessful hunts is ridiculous. Most of us prefer wild game over beef................
 
Where I live water is at a premium, and without them IMO game would suffer incredibly. I have never met a rancher who felt that public land was solely for the use of their cattle. Most are dedicated stewards of the land and are actually quite helpful if you show respect. If we left it up to us to maintain water sources such as dirt tanks and drinkers then I believe you would see the demise of large animals such as elk in many areas. I respect your opinion, but perhaps look at the bigger picture here other than ranchers so called profits off the land.
 
Thank you for agreeing with me about the "inconvenience of cattle". Who else is to blame? and where did I say anything about not being successful. I am just tired of eveyone's land being mainly used by a minority to the detriment of game. Of course I "deal with it", but does that make it right? I'm sure there are many exceptions but I think that much of our public land is too heavily grazed. How about a 1% decrease every year for 25-50 years? And why do they have to graze the wilderness areas, I think most people go there to get away from man and his influences.
 
I agree this should be good!

Let me just throw this out there...

80% of the riparian areas in the west on public land grazing alotments are in such bad shape that they couldn't get any worse. (riparian areas support 75% of all wildlife in the west)

60% of all public grazed BLM is also in such poor condition that it can't get any worse...

Studies have shown that cattle graze off aproximately 83% of the available forage for wildlife. One cow can eat as much as 7 MULEDEER or 2 ELK. There is a direct relation to the number of animals a given range can sustain that is directly linked to available forage.

The water tank issue is a joke... Do a little reserch on the mater and you will see that the live stock do more damage to the hydrology than the good one water tank will ever do!

Less than 3% of the nations cattle are raised on public land.

Public land grazing directly supports 18,000 federal jobs, i.e. tax dollars to watch over public land grazing. Couldn't that money be better spent else where?

Better hunting gound/bigger and more animals will supply at least 10 times more money to the local economy than public grazing will.

Public lands ranchers pay $1.35 per animal unit, where as their private grazing counter parts pay upwards of $11 per amu. The land still costs the same amount to manage... Who do you think picks up the bill for the rest?

How may animals could be supported buy, the riparian areas if they were in good condion? The BLM land? Do you want more animals?
 
I photograph elk in the Upper Rio Grand in Colorado and am in the
hills 7 days a week from June to November. Never miss 1 day. there is a STRONG correlation between livestock grazing and number of elk in a given basin.If one is up the other is down.
 
I would hope that we all could agree that multiple use of public lands is a privliage that we all enjoy. All means ranchers, hunters, hikers, bikers, ATV users, minners, oil/gas exploration etc.

The big question is, how are these lands being managed. I argue that many lands are being raped, pillard, and plundered and not just by ranchers. I look at places like the Colorado River near Moab--it has been loved to death. Too many people using this area for recreation is taking its toll. No doubt many riparian areas are getting beat to death not only by livestock but elk as well. Mitigation for natural resource exploration is a joke in many areas, things don't get done and when done are often done half assed at the expense of all who use public lands.

The last question is how are you involved in your management of the public lands in your area? When a grazing allotment is up for renewal or review do you give comments or just sit back and ##### and moan when decisions are made. When the elk are beating the hell out of the range are you discussing that our do you think the ranchers should just give up their way of life for 40+ years.

Lets don't blame poor range conditions on ranchers alone. The fact of the manner is many allotments are just plan miss managed by our land management agencies who are over worked and under staffed. Lets find out how we can be involved and not sit back and point fingers......

My thoughts...

Todd
 
one thing you have to watch, while i agree that there are some problem areas for grazing, is the alternative. many of these ranches couldn't operate without public lands grazing. do you know what happens to ranch land that is no longer able to sustain a business? ranchers sell to developers because they have no choice. do developers care about keeping the foothills where that ranch once was available for winter range for our wild game? dont think so.
 
I disagree I don't remember how many times I see the water turned on for the cattle and then abruptly shut off when the cows are gone. and day after day deer, elk, etc. show up at the watering hole and low and behold no water. I don't think they care for anything but their investment.
 
For many people who are not involved in the public ranching scene they see only a small glimpse of the overall picture.

I liken it to hunting. There are Anti-Hunters out there who feel that hunters have NO rights to hunt public lands. They see a bloody dead deer some hunter is dragging out and their convictions against hunting become stronger. But their convictions are usually based on emtions, rather than facts. Those against public grazing have some of the same traits. Much is based on emotion, not fact. Grasses are a renewable resource, just like a deer or elk; and they both need to be managed properly.

When deer numbers were highest in the 1950's-60's there were 10 million sheep grazing Utah's public lands along with millions of cattle. Today, there are less than 400,000 sheep and well less than 1 million cows, and deer numbers are way down. Direct correlation.
 
I know you are not trying to say that cattle are good for game numbers.

As far as water, that's biggest farce in the west. You saying that there were no deer in the west before the white man came to North America because ther were no water tanks?

Come on, trying to rationalize that the cattle are good for public land is comical.
 
If you remove the ranchers from using the land then hunters will not be far behind. We have to find a way to maintian multi-use or the land will be locked to all or at least to the "special interest" groups with the largest sums of money. Thats my two cents worth and I'm outta this because its going to get ugly. This has been hashed over here before.

Mike
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Public lands are only for raising more wildlife for me and my buddies to shoot...Period! Anyone who thinks otherwise, you ranchers, hikers, ATVers, photographers, bike racers, birdwatchers, better just watch out!
 
If it wasn't for those so-called ranchers of the late 1700's,Taking up that land for grazing and running cows on it, MOST of the land west of the Missouri river would be under plow and there wouldn't be to many deer or elk, Mountains aren't the only places that is used for grazing permits take a look at all that BLM land, Ranchers will be using those Mountains long after deer and elk hunting is gone. You don't feed the world by being a nice guy, You can b!tch about cows up in the mountains but don't see alot you pushing back from the table.( I know you all love elk meat more but if everyone in the USA ate elk you could just about be out of elk in a year) Please pass another 1/4 lber please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I agree with RE, I see the water turned off when the cows are gone, also i cant count how many i have scene laying in a small creek, polluting the water all the way down.
I dont mind that they use the land, as long as they dont think they own it,(which has been a problem for me in the past) and they go out and sweep the area dead or alive.
 
I like cows. Cow pies are big and round. The deer are used to smelling them. Next time you go hunting find a fresh green one and rub it all over yourself. Just think you could save loads on doe sent! This cattle issue is a tuff one. I dont think we will ever agree on it. Im not even going to try. Do you think cows like mountain bikes?
 
Just another thought. What do you guys think 50 million bison and millions of deer and elk did to the landscape?? Was it "untouched" as many today want it??

There is always a bigger picture. Fighting this over this topic is the same as treehuggers vs loggers, Antihunters vs hunting, wolf lovers vs nonwolf lovers. Can't get anywhere because the one side, usually the those against the activity, won't change their emotional minds.
 
Well lets say that the cattle industry ie local ranchers set up the real profits for a year on the cattle -ie including all expenses per cattle unit & selling price then tally up the total monies for the whole years herd- including local monies made off each rancher who run cattle-
then take what the states can get for selling hunting permits tally in local businesses with what they make ie hotel, motel, gas stations, food stores, hunting supplies including clothing ammo- include guide service fees


DAH- does not take a rocket scientist
 
TJD

Don?t make me puke. You freaking liberals don't have a clue about grazing or a rancher?s way of life
 
Todd,post number 8: "Are land management agencies are over worked and under staffed" seriously, you are kidding on this one,aren't you? It seemed more like a political remark instead of a truthful one. Other than that your response were excellent and educated.

Just curious, Do pack horses in the wilderness cause less land damage than off road 2 wheel bicycles??
 
I agree that there is a place for everyone to use public lands, ranchers included... but their track record to date isn't pointing out the fact that they arn't takeing care of our land.

I grew up in a ranching community where almost all public lands are grazed, even winter game ranges... My family ranches, and also have public alotments, so I do understand the other side of the big picture. Cattle are bad for the environment, period.

If public lands grazing is so great give me one example of what it does to promote sound ecology?

It degrades:
1. water quality
2. water quantity
3. erosion
4. pollution
5. supress game populations
6. compact soil
7. spread diseases
8. the list goes on and on

If public land ranchers are such good stewards of the land then how come 60% of the BLM is in such bad shape that it couldn't get any worse? What about the riparian areas?

No one said anything about getting rid of cows. Public land ranchers only account for less than 3% of the total cattle production in the US. There will be plenty of 1/4 pounderds to go around!

Bison and cows are two totally differnt animals. One evolved with the grasses in the west, the other evolved in Europe/asia. Do a little reserch on that one and you'll see that they are infact very differnt in how they graze and how they go about thier daily lifes.

Yes, I will say that some ranchers will sell out if they don't have thier public allotments, buy if they are such good "stewards" of the land then why don't they put thier land in a conservation easement before they sell? They would be making less money off the sale but since they care so much about the land they wounldn't care right?

There's a big differnce bewteen public lands ranchers and hunters. Hunters don't degrade the environment the way some ranchers do, and hunters don't make money off our public lands at the tax payers expence!

I just can't understad how hunters can sit there and defend public lands ranchers. We see the biggest impact as a result of public land ranching!
 
Yeah you guys are all right. I guess the shortage in water in the last century has nothing to do with our ranges. Wake up jack aces. Ranchers make up our world we live in and hunting really does take a backseat to all you selfish hunters.
 
I'm not entirely against public land grazing, but from what I've seen lately....I'd have to side with the "get the cows outa here" crowd. My gripe is the ranchers who lock up the public land. Here in NM there are thousands of acres that are landlocked. Its not just cow grazing that bugs me about the ranching business. You have large ranches that deal with politicians and negotiate landswaps. Then the rancher ends up getting all the best public land because they contributed some money to some politicians campaign fund.
-Raptor
 
This fight over public land grazing is certainly not going to go away but I'd like to add a few thoughts anyways.

OVER-grazing will damage our natural resources. And this may be fairly common in the West. It is not as simple a problem to solve as some may think. The regulations on a grazing permit alone are so full of red tape and restrictions that ranchers and BLM/USFS employees are often hamstrung to do anyting to help.

To say that all livestock grazing is bad for our landscape is quite ignorant. Have you ever been to Deseret Land and Livestock or Red Canyon Ranch in Wyoming. I know that these are private lands but they do graze livestock there. And I'll bet there isn't a hunter on this board that wouldn't give his right arm to hunt there. The point is that for appropriate grazing to happen management needs to be adaptable which isn't usually the case with any federal agency.

Now some say lets just cancel all public land grazing and that will be the end of the problem. I especially like the the comment of only 3% of cattle are grazed on public lands. That figure is just plain wrong. What it comes from is that is how many cattle go straight from public land allotment to the packing house in the same season. If you know anything about ranching you'd be aware that many mother cows are kept for years while their calves and often sold and sent to feedlots to fatten and then to the packing house. But the public land was still critical and your 3% figure should be much higher.

Finally people say that public land grazing is heavily subsidized and your right. However not nearly so much as other uses such as recreation. Also while AUM fees are quite low on public lands they are not comparable to private land fees. If i'm leasing private land I usaully get more and have more control. Like not allowing ATVs on the property (something else that is fairly destructive to riparian areas)

Thanks for letting me post and for reading
 
remember one thing, anti's are anti everything. hunting, fishing, logging, mining, ranching farming, everything. if you line up with them against ranchers, you're lining up against yourself. wildlife and cattle have gotten along fairly well for a long time. most of the developed water was done by ranchers and benefits wildlife. look how many deer are found along the edges of pastures and fields. there are some jerk off ranchers for sure, but most of them like to hunt and have a real interest in wildlife and get along well with hunters. and jerk hunters cause them a lot of grief on occasion. it's joint use, and we need to make sure it stays that way. if the anti's get just one of the joint users tossed off, then they will have more resources to concentrate on who's left. where my dad and i hunt, in the Az. desert, there are a lot more deer now than there ever have been because of the water development done by the rancher. anytime we run into him he's real willing to tell us where he's seen game and is great to get along with. we gotta stick together guys or we'll be all playin' golf for something to do on the weekend. and i hate golf.
 
Bambistew - Perfect example of the emotions concept. You most likely go to the mountains a few times each year and see some cows, or an overgrazed area (of which there are some, not as many as you Antis would like to believe) and based your opinion on your emotions at the time. You my friend are an Anti. An Anti-grazer. There are Anti-Hunters, Anti-Grazers, Anti-Loggers, Anti-ATVers, etc. Anyone who has such passion to remove another interest off public lands for their benefit is out of control. All these activities have thier place on public lands. They just need to be controled. Your same thought process against responsible public land grazing can be used against the hunting fraternity.

You also said "It degrades:....5. supress game populations ..." Go back and look at when our deer populations in the 50's-60's were highest so were cattle and sheep grazing. You can't correlate the same for elk because they were still recovering from the market hunters of the 1800's. Here in Utah we have some areas that cannot be grazed. Many of these areas have game numbers lower than public lands which are grazed.
 
Yollabolly--

The truth about our land managment agencies is they are so busy dealing with law suits and political red tape that yes, they don't have the time to count cows on allotments or determine when they should be off the allotment. They are too busy filling out this form and filing this form that they don't have time to plan vegetative treatments. I think they are soo busy with those type of things, that they don't have the time to do the things they wanted to do when they went to school. My opinion, if you see differently--your entitled too.

Todd
 
I am not opposed to grazing on public land?but at times it seems that ranchers want to have their cake and eat it to. A recent proclamation by the Farm Bureau states that the organization supports a free market economy?but that same proclamation says that the Bureau is opposed to the selling of public grazing allotments to the highest bidder. If the Sierra Club or Nature Conservancy wants to pay the top bid for a grazing allotment (regardless of if they graze or not)?than in a free market shouldn't they get it? It appears to me that the Farm Bureau only supports the notion of a ?free market? as it pertains to (and directly benefits) their constituents.
 
From one whose family is involved in the Ranching business and grazing public land. I would say times are a changing. If you want some good old fashion discussion on this very issue go to Moosies site and to the sportsmans issue forum and search in the forum for "welfare ranching". This debate is more complicated than just move your off our lands. I don't want to get into it here but would tell you that it is a complicated issue.

Also don't jump on Bambistew he is stating a lot of facts. His family is also involved in ranching and he is passionate about wildlife. He is a good guy.
Nemont
 
My family is into ranching cattle and we are totally or should I say anti-elk and deer. They tear our fences up constantly and they considered waste animals to us. We hope they abolish most of those creatures and shove the leftovers into a zoo.

Ron James
 
Ron James

we had that very same thing occur locally but it was with geese-
the local golf community stated that the goose droppings were slick and messy so they went an killed about a hundred or so then thru them in the trash dumpster- -it only cost them about $1000 per bird after the game wardens got thru with them
so be careful with what you think are pests!!!!

I would beleive the replacement cost will be a little higher!!!!
 
Blanding Boy- Todd, thank you for enlightning me. I believe you. Bureaucratic BS...what a waste. Best of luck with your new book. Rick
 
Blanding_Boy...

It sounds to me, like you are one of the few who really have a clue what issues our public land are faced with today. Was the first time on this site where I enjoyed someone?s post

Remember you can $hit the tourist but there is no shitting skunk #####
 
Cows suck and so do sheep. Graze your Range Maggots on public land at your own risk, if a Grizzly decides to take one of your sheep as a snack then so be it, don't depend on my taxas to pay for your lose. If that happens on your private land then your entitled some compansion. Kill the sheep not the Grizz.
 
I am an avid hunter and was also the third generation of my family to graze public lands (BLM), so obviously those of you that want all cattle off public lands will dis-regard what I have to say, but here it is anyway.

1)Currently, there are less cattle and sheep grazing public lands than at any other time since the Taylor Grazing act.

2)If not for the Taylor Grazing act and the ability for grazing of public lands, it could very well be that these lands would be privately held, purchased generations ago for pennies an acre by ranchers who were grazing them at the time.

3)As far as AUM fees on public vs. private land, you get what you pay for. On public land, the rancher is responsible for fencing, salt, water, rotation, etc. They also wade through miles of red tape to do the right thing. E.G. our grazing association wanted to fence the cattle off a spring. (Yes, the ranchers wanted the cattle off the spring) The property that needed fenced included BLM, BOR (bureau of reclamation) and State land. 3 years later, still no fence because the 3 agencies couldn't agree on how the ranchers (at their expense) should build it.

Typically on the private lease, the owner of the pasture provides fencing, water, management and typically a better rate of gain. On our BLM, it takes 4-6 acres to support a cow/calf for 1 month. On the private pasture I have rented it is usually 1-2 cow/calfs per acre. Result: calves that are 100-150 pounds heavier at weaning than public land, therefore I will pay more for private.

4)Yes, there are some SOB ranchers that will block public lands, but that has nothing to do with grazing. Are you telling me that when the ranch is purchased by some wealthy non-rancher, the gates are wide open? Give me a break.

5)Graze till its gone? If grandpa grazed the land until its gone, what would my dad have left to graze on? If he abused it, what would I have? Sure there are some stunning examples of overgrazing, but are there slob hunters and poachers? Are we all slob hunters just because there are some stunning examples of that?

6)Gov't subsidies? Well, is it the ranchers fault that it takes 4 or 5 BLM personel to manage 1 grazing allotment? If we get rid of public land grazing, will we fire all the range managers? Doubtful. According to some of the arguements presented here, they would have to manage the millions of elk and deer that would suddenly appear.

7)Only 3% of the cattle in the US are from public lands? That is simply not true. As stated earlier, that figure is misleading as most slaughter animals do not come directly from public lands, but, at least in the west (where we are FORTUNATE to have public lands) the majority of the cattle spend a PORTION of the year grazing on public lands.

8)Free market....its a good point, why don't we let the highest bidder take that school section or grazing allotment away from the rancher for a higher price? The basic answer is that the fee paid to the BLM/Forest Service/State is only a small part of the economic contribution of the entire ranch. Most public lands ranches would be out of business without the grazing. This means that the ranch hands would be out of business, the feed store gone, the equipment dealer gone, property taxes lost, etc. Sure, we could keep property taxes....by splitting up the deeded land into ranchettes. How good is that for wildlife, or access? How much game winters on deeded ranch lands? By the way, you cannot graze public lands without a deeded acreage base.

I could go on. I totally acknowledge that there are issues with public lands ranching, as there is with any other industry, or sport...including ours (HUNTING).

O.K. boys, fire away!
 
Ya, that was a great response. I wonder if he is on a rabbit food diet? You know cows and sheep suck so bad. Public land is public land. If you dont like the cows on the land just weight until permits come up then get them for yourself.
 
Idhunters, Good Post. Something worth reading for all involved.

Those who say all grazing on public lands should stop should also be ready to say all hunting should stop. Both are renewable resources that must be managed, and USED. Multiuse means just that. Take away 1 use and the rest may fall also.
 
Good post idhunters.

Sure there are a few slob ranchers that should be delt with but most of them are good, hard working, honest people. Deer numbers usually aren't limited by the summer range that most of the grazing is done on. I would like to see ranchers stop grazing cows/sheep on winter range that is public land. On the other hand there are also a lot of ranchers that have to put up with elk and deer wintering on their private property. Ranchers do a lot more good for deer and elk on their private lands than the damage their cows/sheep do on public land.

How many of you guys that that think all grazing on public land should end also think that Hilary Clinton would make a great president?
 
Good post for the most part. I think we could all agree that there are some abuses of the current system and in truth the system needs to be looked at seriously and evaluated differently depending on where you live summer vs. winter grazing etc.

I think we should all know that grazing if done propertly can really improve range conditions and numbers of deer, elk, antelope, grouse and livestock stocking rates can increase if done properly. I stress properly--there is a right way and a wrong way to graze. Bottom line is that our landmanagement agences likely because of funding issues and manpower issues don't or can't spend the time to make it right.
Todd
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-04 AT 07:19PM (MST)[p]I worked for the state and for the forest service for a few years while I was going to school. It seemed like some people were very busy and some spent more time trying to get out of work than they ever spent doing anything positve. I do think there are lots of very hard working people that work for the goverment. But I have a hard time thinking they are to busy to control the ranges better. When I was growing up We had 3 mountain pastures, The cattle would rotate from one to another after a set lenght of time. Some years we would have to start on the pasture that had a higher elevation than the others. The problem with this is that the grass had not had time to grow. Then the cattle would destroy the range. seemed very unlogical to me.
 
I would have to say that there is no right or wrong with this issue. The hunters and the ranchers just need to learn to work together and respect one anothers interests.

I use to work on a ranch in the summers when I was in college and understand the delicate balance that the grazing areas need in order to produce enough food for the elk and the cattle. Water is the main issue. If there is no water, then the grass just won't grow.

-Mike
 
Yaaaawwwwnnnnn.....i'm bored. Guess I better get up and go check on my cows.
 
One of the biggest problems with having an honest open discussion these days is when people quote statistics without their references. The second biggest problem is that even when the references are quoted people accept them as stated without researching the actual studies to find out exactly what they mean.

Case in point, the statistic about the cost for ranchers to graze public land compared to private. Having the unique perscpective of having ranched in the west using public land as well as having ranch on the plains with all private property, it is discusting the way people use statistics to compare the two.

On public land ranchers pay for the feed only. All of the management and care is provided for by the ranchers themselves.

With private land contracts, it has been my experience that not only are the cattle owners paying for the feed, but they are usually leasing their cattle to another private individual who provides all of the feed, management and care for them.

This is an important difference that is largely overlooked in most statistical analysis.

Just don't believe all of these statistics that people post unless you have researched them for fairness and accuracy.


Another point that is largely misleading is the ripairian area issue. If cattle are the biggest threat to ripairian areas, elk have to be a close second. The idea that cattle are the only animals that do damage to ripairian areas is ridiculous. In all my years in the cattle business, I have never seen a cow roll around in a ripairian area like a pig which is exactly what elk do. As elk hunters you should be able to sympathize with cattle rancers because a true defender of ripairian areas would not only seek to rid public lands of cattle but of elk also.

The reality of public land issues is that everyone thinks that their pet use should be protected and preserved.
 
The idea that buffalo are most sensitive to the enviroment than cattle is just not true. If you have some facts to sustain your research, please show them.

I have had experience with both cattle and buffalo in one of the most sensitive ecological areas in the country- the sandhills of Nebraska. My family has ranch there for several years because it is commonly referred to as "Gods Cattle Country."

About ten years ago Ted Turner bought several large ranches within twenty miles of my family's ranch. They tore out the fences and turned the buffalo loose. Within the first year the buffalo had those sand hills tore up so bad that the Turner's refused to buy any more land in that area. And this is an area where cattle have been grazed on almost every square inch for a hundred and fifty years.

Some of the claims that people make insult their own intelligence or at the very least prove that they have been "buffaloed" by some one who thinks they know more than they really do.

If people are going to make claims, provide something to back them up with.
 
In the end the biggest flaw with the grazing vs. hunting issue is that not to many years ago there were more cattle, more sheep and more wildlife on the range. Noone can honestly make the argument that cattle grazing has ruined the wildlife populations because not to many years ago, at the peak of deer numbers, cattle were on the range. How can we honestly say that it is the cattle that are the problem when the cattle were there back in the "good old days."

Can any of you honestly say that you wouldn't love to have deer populations today what they were twenty or thirty years ago- when the same cattle and more that we're whining about today were grazing public lands.

We definitely have declining deer numbers, but anyone who honestly looks at history, can't argue that cattle are the problem.
 

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