Poaching Predators?

Q

QQQQ (Guest)

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I know this is will be controversal.What do you think about taking matters into your own hands when political correctness interferes with proper management.Personally I would not break the law, but probablly would not report such a violation, like I would a deer, elk. sheep, etc. I'm not saying to eradicate these predators(Wolves/Lions), just manage them properly which our F&G agencies have largley failed to do. I have never poached anything, except for a few birds with my pellet gun when I was 12. Please keep this post somewhat courteous!
 
What a stupid post. I had a little toomuch sauce in me, Please do not respond any further.
 
Poaching is Poaching !!
no matter if it is a game animal or a Predator
if you kill it- leave it lying or bury it or take it with you
YOU!!!! have broken the law and should be held accountable
you can not just make up your own laws as you go along
next you might decide you don't like "whatever" and decide to kill them out too!x(
everything has a purpose even "man" that why we have rules/laws


LONG TIME HUNTER
 
You know hunter is right poaching is poaching but i still wish they would do something about the lions here in southeastern utah. Lions kill a deer/elk a week 4 deer/elk a month and 48 deer/elk a year. last year i saw 5 different lions while hunting thats almost 250 deer/elk and if that doesent make you guys worry about our deer/elk #'s then nothing will
 
The numbers are scary in terms of how many deer and elk are killed by lions and other predators as mentioned in some of previous posts. I agree that something needs to be done as far as management goes, I'm not ready to agree with poaching yet, but if the harvest objectives and/or the amount of tags aren't increased, along with all the other factors involved, hunting mulies will become a thing of the past. Another thing to keep in mind is that there are so many people getting into lion hunting that the lions are getting a ton of pressure on them year-round because of the hunters training there dogs off season with pursuit tags. Do you think it makes these lions a little smarter come hunting season? You bet your ass it does. It's pretty hard to tree the same lion twice unless your dogs are top notch. All the Lion hunters I know will tell you about "the huge track they cut, but could never tree it". HHMMMm I wonder why! I'm sure Lion hunters will disagree with me vocally, but know that I'm right.
 
I thought that getting a trophy mule deer on public land was already a thing of the past. You know how you can shoot all the coyotes you want to sometimes they even have a bounty on them I wish they would do the same thing with lions. That would probably piss some people off but I think that it is the point that it has got to.
 
for all of those pissing and moaning about the lion numbers, you better take a look at the other factors. here in MT. you can shoot 6 to 8 does. the people that are whining about the lions are the people that are shooting all the deer they can and wondering where did the deer go. first you better understand the habits of a lion before you go whining about to many. and yes i do chase lions and hunt all of the other types of big game here in MT. here in MT after a fresh snow i have put on up to 300 miles in the mountains and never cut a lion track. they are just not there! if you want to do the mule deer any good get off your butts and kill some coyotes and quit killing so many does.
 
come to utah any time and i could put you on at least 1 lion any day of the week. Hows about you know what youre talking about before you start talking.
 
a different cat every day of the week???? i will drive down there to see that. what town do you want to meet at??? they are huntable cats right,not in some national park and you have the permisson to hunt there?
 
I don't know how MT distributes the lion tags, but here in Utah they are done by harvest objective, the DWR sets a limit on how many lions can be harvested in each area of the state. These hunts are after the limited entry hunts that are drawn for prior to the general over the counter harvest objective hunts begin. In the areas that receive snow regularly the objectives are usually met within 3-6 days!!!! The units that don't receive much snow(winter range for deer)usually lasts for a month or two because of the tougher hunting condions. It is however a very strong point to put an end to the doe hunting and the cow elk hunts too. And for hell sakes take away the over-the-counter statewide archery tags--the deer cant take anymore of the inexperienced rifle hunters turned bowhunters the night before the hunt starts because they didn't draw a rifle tag b.s.--but that's a whole other post in itself...
 
anybody can shoot 6 to 8 does and a buck with statewide tags. all you have to due is draw one tag, then buy the rest over the counter. we can also get two elk tags for most areas in the central part of the state. in 2004 the elk season is going to be greatly extended right now the gun season is 6 weeks long and in some areas it is 10 weeks with a general tag(just where did all those elk and deer go?) the lion season is long with a harvest quota. in most of the areas(75%) the quota is never met even with a 4 1/2 month season. so i would like to travel to this area in Utah where i could run a lion every day i went out. as it is here in MT i log around a 1000 miles for every fresh track i find. so tell me about this area and i will be there.
 
That's insane, at that rate MT will be worse off than Utah. You better pack up your hounds and travel to Utah--anywhere there is fresh snow and a few deer in the area you will cut a track--I guarantee you wont have to drive even close to 1000 miles to cut one. Panguitch, Zion, Monroe, Pavant, Pansagaunt, Fishlake, Boulder,Indian Peaks, Wasatch, I could go on and on....any of these units are good. You better be quicker than the rest of them though, the good units fill up quick. Some of the hunters pay some of the local teenagers to drive around the night before the opener and stomp out the fresh tracks so they can get to them first. That's probably an old trick that you're familiar with already. It seems like everyday I see a different truck with a dog box in the back, there are getting to be a ton of lion hunters and lions, but not enough tags to go around.
 
If your really concerned about deer being killed needlessly then do something about vehicles. They kill more than all of us. Need more animal overpasses and tunnels.
Don't blame it on the poor little kitty. We have plenty of mountain lions to kill deer but we have plenty of each. We have near 5 million deer and growing so don't blame the little poor mountain we call a non-protected varmit. It's probably our cat's sneaking up there and snacking on those big fat deer. There easier to catch than our etty bitty deer.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-04 AT 06:50PM (MST)[p]I'm from Utah and have a pack of hounds, where the hell are all these lions you boys keep talking about??? Treeing lions has been my obsession for over 20 years now and I've hunted nearly every corner of the state (as well as several surrounding states) and I've never seen the cougar hunting tougher than it is right now. 10-15 years ago I used to catch and release 40+ lions a season just hunting weekends, but no longer. I hunt harder now than I ever have and my catch total this season is still in the single digits.......and I dumped on every track I've cut and treed every lion I turned out on!!

Years of over hunting has taken it's toll on the lion population in Utah to where, even in Utah, 1000 miles between tracks isn't all that unbelievable to me. Tell you boys what, I have a truck load of pups that need training and I'll give you $100 for every fresh lion track you can put me on to. But if you call me down and show me a dog or coyote track and tell me it's a lion track, as so often happens, I'm taking my $100 bill back with me.....after I kick your ass of course!!

As for the post that said that lions can't hardly be caught again once they are treed and released, that's horse pucky!! That sounds like an excuse for failure to me. Before the slaughter, I knew just about every lion on the Cache and Ogden units because I had caught them all so many times before. Size, sex, color differentiations, location, scar patterns, and even personality make each lion unique from all the others. After a while you get to recognize the different individuals within the population and I can honestly say it was no difference treeing them the first time as it was the twentieth!!


But then again, what the hell do I know??
 
In Texas we can kill all the mountain lions that we want. There is no bag limit or closed season. You can hunt them from sunup to sundown, 24/7, all year long if you want to.

As far as MT. goes, killing alot of does is good. Just about every place is over ran with does, the buck:doe ratio is so messed up in most places. On my ranch 2 years ago, we only killed 5 bucks but we killed 55 does. Shooting alot of does is good for the herd and for the habitat. Its not going to be the "end" of deer hunting in Montana, trust me.
 
Kevin, you just don't want to give the lion areas or what? cause tell me where i can run a lion every day and i will be there in a hurry i can make SLC in 8 hrs. and for the guy in TX. whitetails and mule deer are two different critters. yes with whitetails and in a controlled area you want a low buck to doe ratio. when you are trying to save the muley bucks from the other hunters so they can grow up, you need a big herd of does to keep them in one place so you can protect them and keep them from roaming around looking for more does cause thats when they get shot by some yahoo. this works very well in MT. but with such a long season and during rut it is a tuff job.
 
Kicken' my ass??? don't think so pal. And yes I am well aware of the difference between a lion and coyote track--it's quite obvious--besides being a completly different shape altogether, the claws are a dead give away everytime! If there aren't any lions left then why do the good units fill up so quick?
 
I agree. The more doe you shoot the more deer you have. We shoot plenty of doe on our place and every year we have more deer. It didn't use to be that way when we couldn't shoot doe. It doesn't make sense but it works. Removing non productive doe means more deer producing food for the young doe and bucks and it takes pressure off the bucks. With plenty of meet in the freezer you don't have to shoot every little buck you see just to keep from getting skunked. You will see many more twins. Barren doe only eat and fall dead. Put them in the freezer.
 
txhighrack,
Are you talking about whitetails or Muley's? I don't think that anyone will disagree with you that the Whitetails are flourishing, it's the Muley's that we're worried about. And if you're in Texas how do know so much about the deer in MT? Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to be the authority on Muley's in MT, but if the trend there is anything like it is in Utah and I'm sure it is, then there is reason to be concerned if there are hunters out there that think that taking 55 does each season is beneficial. Reminds of the elk herd over on Fishlake, the DWR thought that it would be beneficial to sell cow tags to everyone that bought a spike bull tag---for a unit that was so over populated (the DWR thought), after that season they had to shut the entire unit down so the elk herd could recover--that was three years ago and the unit is still closed!!!!! What does this tell you?????
 
hey man i'l take you up on that hundred bucks. I have cut 4 different lion tracks on 4 different shed hunting sessions. Something is wrong when i can find lions and no horns. I live in huntington in case you wanted to know.
 
BadlandCat,

Could I ask a favor? Please ignore the posts by Threelemonbob and Quickdraw or whatever his name was and please take them for what they are, pointless blabbering.

Those were the most unintelligent, uninformed posts I have ever read on a hunting forum and neither of them have any idea what they are talking about, a trend that is becoming more popular everyday on this site.

I ask you not to judge the rest of us Utah hunters by the comments they made. I have no problem with having an intelligent conversation about predators with someone who at least has some basic knowledge. Clearly, neither of these two would qualify.

You are wasting time. It's pointless to try and argue with someone as uninformed as these two when it comes to predators and predator management. So I ask you please do not judge all Utah hunters by a couple of idiots on a website. Thank you.
 
Hey Don't be raggin on my buddy ThreelemmonBob!
He has big time credentials on this site! Hell anyone can see lions or big stupid muleys,you show me a bigfoot like has seen then you can beat on your chest and tell people to squeeze your lemmons!
 
HHMMMmmm, you had to sign on as a guest to post this message huh? Obviously you're a memeber if you watch the forums this close, but that's besides the point. Please enlighten us with all your wisdom and knowledge concerning this post. I am so relieved that we've finally found someone with all the answers, thank you so much for coming to our rescue. If you will please, the podium is all yours--I do look forward to hearing what you have to say.
 
Hell badlandcat, I thought I was coming in on your side of this bar fight!! I ain't hardly finding ##### for lions in Utah and I've hunted several different units!! I could tell you stories about driving around for days and not finding any cougar tracks that would bring tears to your eyes!!! Yeah, you just whacked a buddy badland, go back and reread my post.

Why do the harvest objective fill so quickly??? Do you boys even know what the hell you're talking about?? Since the Cache unit went H.O. back in '97, the quota filled the first couple of years but they HAVEN'T been able to fill it since!! Why?? It ain't because of lack of snow or that nobody's hunting it. Nope, there is a parade of doggers from Weber and Davis counties coming up everyday for weeks after a snow storm desparate to fill a tag. It's because after a while there just AIN'T no more lions to kill!!!

BTW, I have some good buddies that live just over the hill from Huntington in Green River. They have guided run hounds even longer than myself, and they're telling me that they ain't got ##### for lions either compared to what they used to have! Now who should I beleive??? You, the mighty horn hunter, or a professional houndsman with 30 years experience hunting in your backyard?? Hmmmmm, that's a tough one.

Here's my daytime phone number in case any of you boy scouts find a runnable track or want an ass kickin', it's (435)994-0571.
 
if Kevin will go 100 bucks i will go 125.00, but you got to have a fresh track every day for 5 days. not going to drive down there for a day or two. if you quit chasing the deer around trying to get the antlers to fall off maybe they would stay in one area, ya think!!!
 
Quickdraw,

"If the herd there is like the herd in UT, which I'm sure it is, then you should be worried. If there are hunters out there that think that taking 55 does from the herd is good, your in trouble"

Well actually Quickdraw, your wrong. It was my decision to take the 55 (whitetail) does off of the ranch. The ranch is mine, its private land and is normally only hunted by me. And yes taking 55 does off the ranch was/is a good thing because we had to many running around. I wanted the buck:doe ratio at about 1:1.5 and the only way I was going to accomplish this was by taking off ALOT of does. I never said that I do this year after year, although I could, but I dont want to. Since my ranch is low fenced, its hard to get a real good count of the number of does and bucks that are on the ranch. I have a helicopter survey done each year, but even by air we see far fewer deer then are actually out there, mainly because the brush is so thick and alot of the deer with lay down if the helicopter flies or hovers over them.

But like I said, it was totally my choice to take off the 55 does and the 5 bucks. I dont do this every year, but this one particular year it needed to be done. There is normally only 1-3 mature "trophy" bucks taken off the ranch and about 10-15 does that are taken off each year. Plus a few cull and management bucks, but thats normally only about 5-8 more deer.
 
Highrack,
That paints a more clear picture of your situation. I wish we had that problem here--over abundance of deer, but that's just not the case. I look back 10 years ago when I first got involved in bowhunting--if I didn't see atleast 18-20 four-points a day (or in whitetail lingo 10 points if they have eye-gaurds)then I simply wasn't paying any attention. Even 5 years ago I could go out on any given day and see bucks well worth pursuing. In the last year or two, I've had to scout my butt off to find anything worth pursuing. Anymore, I get excited when I see a 24" buck!!! The same bucks we used to see off the side of the road(while traveling back and fourth to different hunting locations!)that we wouldn't even stop the truck for. Don't get me wrong, if a hunter is willing to put in the time and have a little luck on his side, harvesting a monster muley is not out of the question, it's just getting harder. Also, note that I am not blaming this situation entirely on Lion's, I agree that they play a fairly significant role, but other factors such as poor management, highway kills, coyotes,and last but certainly not least the drought situation--has probably taken the biggest tole--the winter-ranges haven't been to productive in the recent past. Hopefully this year will be better with all the snow we've had.
 
>if Kevin will go 100 bucks
>i will go 125.00, but
>you got to have a
>fresh track every day for
>5 days. not going to
>drive down there for a
>day or two. if you
>quit chasing the deer around
>trying to get the antlers
>to fall off maybe they
>would stay in one area,
>ya think!!!


Maybe, not sure why people would still be doing that being that 99.9% of the deer dropped over a month ago???? Anyway, do I hear $150??!!!!
 
125 sounds good to me. Any time you want to come to emery county i'll take you out but what would be the point all you would do is try to chase them around, youre not going kill them. But any time you want to come down e-mail me at [email protected] and i'll put you on a lion best be ready to walk your @ss off. By the way Mr. Embarassment you sound like a real nice guy and it seems you have a lot of answers mabey you should quit trying to hide the fact that you take it in the @ss. Just somen most nice guys seem to do.
 

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