Plumbing Question

Wiszard

Wiszard

Long Time Member
Messages
11,109
Maybe Joey can answer this one for me...or any other plumber we have on MM....I have a 1 BR upstairs apartment and the builder put a 40 gallon water heater in it to supply the hot water. I would like to eliminate the big, bulky water heater with a tankless water heater. I just called our local supply company and they sell a 6.4 gallon tankless for.....$1,200! I was shocked that was their cheapest one. Suggestions on a cheaper way to have hot water in this unit?

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.
 
JUDAS!

Where to Start!

Good Bastards!

Just Read all the Magazines!

We've already had this Discussion!

TANKLESS WATER HEATERS:

Guess they have their Places!

Cabins,Small Houses,Apartments!

Things to Consider:

You Best be Running it on Soft Water!

Pull the Cover off & It's a Maze Of Electronics & Sensors!

What's your Incoming Water Temp?

People read the Magazines & SUCK It to Heart they'll have Unlimited Hot Water,Not So!

They Burn Like a Boiler,Best have a Water Softener or You will Scale the Coil up!

There is Maintenance on them,very few people in this area have the Maitenance done on them until it's too late!

Our Water Temp's are Cooler than Most Places which makes the Tankless heater work harder to heat the Water!

2 ways of venting them:

Out a Side Wall on the Perimeter of your House/Building!

When Vented out a side Wall I've seen the Cold Air come through & Freeze the Coil,when nobody is drawing Hot Water the Unit is OFF,creating NO Heat at all,NO Pilot!(In warmer Climates you may not have this issue!)

When Venting Straight Up the Flue creates a lot of Condensate,you'll need to add a Condensate Tee,then find a place to Discharge the Condensate!

Had a Guy that liked turning his Heat/Thermostat down when He'd leave to go to work,Ended up freezing & Breaking His New Tankless WH,Yup,His Fault!(Can't Blame the WH!)

I have several Customers building Big New Houses & Think they can run the Whole House on one Tankless WH,WRONG!

So you don't like the Price Huh Wisz?

Wait till you get the Vent Pipe & Installation Prices!

When you get the total Price,divide it by what a Tank Type WH will cost you & do the math!

Here's the Deal!

Lot's of GREENIES around thinking they're SAVING the World with their New Tankless WH's that ain't wasting Energy because they don't have a Pilot!

Make sure & Add maintenance Cost & Service in to the Equation too Wisz!

I Install a lot of Deck Mount Big Tub/Jaccuzzi/Jetted Tub Faucets that will Flow 15 to 17 GPM,cut that in 1/2 to 7 to 8 GPM for the Hot side and that one Faucet alone will Flow more Water than the TANKLESS WH will produce,let alone somebody opening another Faucet up somewhere else!

Like I said:

They Have their Places!

You like F'N around with Electronics when it Fails on you, it just might be for you!

Besides that Wisz!

When Ms Wisz gets Tired of your BS and kicks you in to that apartment,she ain't gonna care rather you've got warm water or not!:D:D:D











[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
More than Likely you will need a Bigger Gas Line run to the Tankless WH!

35,000-40,000 BTU's VERSUS 200,000 BTU's when it Fires!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
If you don't wanna Listen to me Wisz?

You can always Check on E-Bay!

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Tankless-water-heaters-BUYER-BEWARE-/10000000002177959/g.html








[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Yeah Steve, they are expensive. I generally have over $1200. in materials invested before i do a job and get about $2500. installed on average. They aren't cheap.

A agree with most of what Bess says there but i believe that they have more uses and are more popular that what he lets on.

Of the couple Dozen i have installed in the last few years, i have yet to have one single call back for service. My customers love theirs.

Your cheapest option initially would be going with a regular 40 gal electric water heater. Make sure if upstairs, that it's set in a pan that drains to the outside in case of leaks.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
I Ain't sayin they Ain't Popular Uncle Sage!

What I'm sayin is:

You ever hear or See where the Manufacturers say anything but Good about them?

F'N Greenies Slick Em right Up!

So You've put a few in!

How many of them ever called you back for any Preventative Maintenance?

Had a Guy call me a few Days ago & said:

She Worked Great till now!

I asked him about maintenance!

Said it hadn't been touched since it was put in 3 years ago!

Now He's PISSED OFF at the World!

Not The Units Fault!

Just sayin...........I see this a lot!

If you're an Electrical Tech it'll Help a bunch in Fixing them!

Now all you gotta do is Stock 20K worth of Misc Parts to Fix the Many Brands on the Market & Fix them Quick!

Remember Uncle Sage,Nobody likes a Cold Shower!:D:D:D










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Go soak yourself Bess! You don't like them, Fine!

As i said, i've been putting them in since i've been in business and have yet to have one call back, for anything or any reason, not one. Don't doubt my findings, go argue with yourself, that should keep you occupied for a long time!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Not Doubting your Findings at all!

You said nobody had called you back for any reason!

There is a Reason to call you back or maybe they're doing their own Maintenance?(I Doubt that very Highly!)

There is some Maintenance/Preventative Maintenance on them sage rather you believe me or not!

You're being kinda cantankerous this afternoon,WTF?

You need me to have TOPGUN send you a PM?:D

RAZZIN Ya sage!

Cabin Fever or WTH?












[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Heck that is a cheap price for a tankless water heater. We had a on demand system put in for our whole house that provides hot water for 3 bathrooms and the kitchen. We also paid 7 thousand for the system and to be installed.
A good amount of that money went towards a lifetime warranty that if something goes wrong the company comes out and fixes it, or replaces it at no cost and that includes all labor in the warranty. We made sure it was a company that has been in business for over 25 years and has a top rated customer service record as we did not want a company that goes belly up in a few years and we are stuck with a worthless warranty contract.

I would not go that route for a rental, put a 40 gallon tank back in and be sure to get a good one. Most renters will not pull any maintance and will let it get to a point of failure before they bellyache to you that it failed.

RELH
 
Smart move RELH!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
RELH, 7K huh? At least you are satisfied with your purchase and guarntee. At $2500. i was about half of my competitor but they have come down a bit. I generally install the Rannia 75 series unit which might be on the small side for a busy 3 bath home.

Bess, yeah, i might be on the cranky side but i posted up that neat ol pic of my family getting ready to go hunting and all you did was look for something to ##### about!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Not at all sage!

But just for you I edited My Posts!

Don't want you thinking I Hi-Jacked your Thread!








[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
As an electrician when I use to wire houses some stupid plumbers would put them under the master bedroom. They were noisy.

I don't do residential electrical anymore but im sure they are more quiet. Personally I wouldn't get one.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-14 AT 11:45PM (MST)[p]Joey, ours is the Navien NP-210 0r 240. I could be wrong on the model numbel. I was wrong on the price, it was $6,300.00 not $7,000.00. Some of the added cost was that we built a new master bedroom and full bath downstairs and the installers had to run new plumbing to that bathroom that was not yet tied into the rest of the house.
We have had it 2 years now and so far no complaints or problems. saves alot on the propane bill that we have noticed.
We did some research on the unit and tankless water heaters in general. It seems that more customers were very happy with the unit had someone install it that had good experience in installing them and getting everything set up right. It's not just the plumbing, but includes the computer pad, air induction, exhaust venting and even proper size gas or propane inlet pipes.
A good majority of the complaints came from home owners that installed it them selfs or used a plumber that had very little experience in working with this type of heater.

We will find out if that warranty is needed in the future!

RELH
 
I seen one in Bako that was coal fired. Worked pretty good. On second thought it was propane.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
My first exposure was standing naked in a plywood shack, 70 miles south of the Arctic Circle, with a 3 inch water line going from the top of a granite hill down to the lake. The water was pumped from the lake into a holding tank, which gravity feed the Rinnai in the shower shack. Absolutely loved it, instant hot water, I'm mean instant! Second and most important, as long as the lake had water and the pump had fuel the hot water never ran out. What an amazing hot water system.

I own a tiny cabin at 9000 feet and I turn all the electricity off when ever I leave because who knows how long before I"ll get back. It takes what seems like hours after I turn on the power on to heat the 40 gallon hot water tank. That's the pits when you've be out all day in the wind, rain, snow and cold and then decide to hole up in the cabin for the night, rather than drive home.

As soon as I got back from the NWTerritories I waddled right down to Peterson Plumbing to order a Rinnai. I got the, "WTF (sorry, but this is what he said) are you thinking" from the owner! I'm mean both barrels.

Seems the perpetual hot water systems have miles (yards???) of tiny,tiny tiny tubes (vains like a car radiator????) that the water has to flow through. The gas heats the vains and because there is such a small amount of water in each vail, as it flows through all the miles of vains, the fire from the gas burner heats it to near boiling, and it seems to do it in a split second. Amazing. So as long as there's gas to burn and water to run, you never run out of steaming hot water.

But...............the got'cha, as it was so politely explained, is hard water! To make the principle work, vains need to be tiny, tiny, tiny. and if you have a lot of minerals in you local water, and we do around my neck of the woods, really hard water, the scale builds up, and solidifies very rapidly in the vains, thus blocking the vain and the flow. Apparently very expensive to repair and or replace. The remedy is a water softener and regular maintenance.

I was scolded that, "if you lived some place where there were less minerals in the water, a Rinnai would be great, but you don't, so get the hell out of here and stop wasting my time"!

My questions is, "why do plumbers all have to be such a$$holes"? :)

DC
 
Because Sometimes they're telling the GAWD-DAMNED Truth!

That's Why!:D










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
You plumbers are just like my dear old mother Bess. She just felt like she needed to deliver it with a cattle prod, "cuz it's true isn't it"! Geez! I can be educated without loosing an eye every time!

THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE ................ UNTIL THE MORAL IMPROVES!

DC
 
RAZZIN Ya Lumpy!}>}>}>!

Sage made me do it!:D:D:D








[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Well I think you got your answer ? I have installed tankless water heaters. New, retrofit and have removed them for unhappy customers. I installed one for a customer that put in a walkin tub for his handicapped wife. After increasing his gas meter to a 2 lb and regulating all of the other gas appliances he was into it about 2300.00 just for the the plumber not including the gas company. Plus they charge you by the month for the larger meter. He had no choice with such a large tub.
My wife like to come out of the shower beat red ! So she likes her water hot. So to get that out of a tankless system for my house. According to the rep and sizing charts to produce 135 degree water. I would need two tankless water heaters a 40 gallon electric water heater. With a recirc pump to get the same out put that I am now getting. With one high recovery water heater putting out 75,000 btu's. We are talking big bucks in equipment here and I still have to have a water heater.
So for most people that like their water hot. Tankless water heaters maintain about 117 to 120 degree water. They just don't cut it. Now in Europe they shower a little different then we do in America. We had some girls from Europe staying with us a few years back. They sponge bath every day and take a bath once a week. So in this case having a hot water heater heating your water and just sitting there. You may save a buck. But running a 200,000 btu water heater every day.Just runs your bill up. Not even counting the cost of the unit.
The other thing is most people think the tankless water heater will last forever or longer then a water heater. Not the case. There warranty is about the same as a good water heater. There you go, you got my 2 cents worth. I can send a crew up next week to install your tankless ;-)
 
Come On BIGJOHN!

We didn't need that!

I had sage Mad enough Yesterday you didn't need to Chime in!:D:D:D









[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-14 AT 03:28PM (MST)[p]Bigjohnt, I hope you are right about the tankless lasting as long as a conventional water heater. We built our house in 1984 and installed a 50 gal water heater when the kids were still loving at home. That darn heater lasted until we installed the tankless system in 2011. 27 years.
If not we will fall back onto the warranty, it breaks, you fix it at no cost to us. Might be the only way we get our money back out of it. Don't tell my wife I said this as it was her ideal to get the tankless.

As for the hot water, we have a jacuzzi tub in the master bedroom bath and we have never had any problems on getting enough hot water, and I mean hot, not luke warm. Even when the dishwasher is using hot water at the same time. Could those customers be installing too small of a unit to take care of their needs?
RELH
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-14 AT 03:40PM (MST)[p]holy moley, we're surrounded by plumbers.................xplans a lot of things about the attitudes we been living with around here. Who else is living on their heads down in a cesspool. Methane alters behavior .................... we knew it all along.

No need to hire no USU PH.d to clear the air on that one.

RAZZIN Ya BC too, an Sage, an John, and apparently a half the other fricking MM'ers that I mistook for normal!! }> }> }>

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-14 AT 05:15PM (MST)[p]Seems some are handy at bringing up worst case Scenarios and that's good, it's needed for a informed decision.

Here about, i've heard of no hard water problems and we all must use Propane. I can get the maximum required 75K BTU with a very short run of 1/2" black pipe but the book calls for a 3/4" line. I'll run a line for free or very little cost if not too involved.

My clients are mostly empty nesters in seasonal second homes or cabins. There are some regular type families mixed in. What can i say, they are all happy with their units and reduced propane bills. You can bet i'd have heard if they weren't.

When i get a few bucks up, i'll be putting one in my house and i'll save serious jack on my propane bill too.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Probably work great for you sage!

Where it's just You & 5 other people/kids can't Open other Faucets in your House,You'll be Smilin!

I've got a couple of Competitors that will put one 5-6 GPM Unit in 3 & 4 Bathroom Houses & they always install the Unit on a far end of the House!

Then they call me!

"I don't understand it,We get Hot water Perty Quick to the one Bathroom but not the other Two Bathrooms/Kitchen"!

Instead of centrally Installing it(Or installing 2 of them like should be!) & Who knows how much water Wasted getting the Hot Water to the other end of the House!

Not Blaming the Unit Sage,with a Regular water Heater You've got the same problem!

As BIGJOHN said!

Some people want extremely HOT Water!

To get Hotter water out of a TANKLESS you've got to Slow the Flow(GPM!)!

I'm SICK & F'N Tired of all this LOW FLOW/NO FLOW BS that originates in KALI!

A couple years later it lands here!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Bess, You could do like Larrbo did. We was just getting to know each other when he asked if i did tankless. Why you betcha i do! I drove on down to Chico, his ,main home and got a chance to drive thru a area that the other people get to live. Nice places! Anyway, he has a big 6-7 bedroom 5-6 bath home, i don't know exactly, being serviced by two little gas conventional units.

Looking in the attic where all the pipes war run was weird, the unit in the back, serviced the hot side fixtures in the front of the home and vice verse. I figured up my materials and time, gave him a price based on the $2500. each, and he gave me the go ahead for a few days from then.

So there was a bunch of pipe swapping the first day and i installed both units the next. This was all by myself, i was a tired pup, But Larrbo claims to like these much better now and i made a nice clean dollar or two for my efforts. We been good Buds ever since!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
If they're Happy that's what counts sage!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
People ask me all the time "Hey Tony, do you know a good plumber?"

Me: "No, but I know a guy"!


2a0fcsk.gif
 
I Have Guys ask me all the time?

You know a Good Carpenter?









[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
I'm sorry I asked. LOL

We already installed a tankless water heater in the downstairs unit which is a salon. I really didn't like that it had to be hardwired, gas run to it and it was so damn expensive. I probably should have just left that unit with a 40 gallon tank and used the money I would've saved for a couple deer tags. :)

I think I'll just put in a smaller gallon water heater. What is the smallest water heater they make? Do they make a 20-30 gallon tank?

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.
 
Yes they do. But if you are trying to shower. A 30 gallon electric will only give you one shower. Electric water heaters don't recover very fast. In our area 50 are more common and are cheaper then a 40. I am not sure what state you are in ?
 
I am not a plumber and have no experience except my own, which generally revolved around replacing tank water heaters in every rental I ever lived. When I did finally build my own place six years ago, a tankless was one place where we splurged. My family and I never run out of water. Never even thought about the hard water thing, but I think we are ok in that respect (or have been, so far). Perhaps the fact that I had the placed plumbed for this out the outset helped to control costs. I would definitely do it again.
 
JUDAS Eel!

I knew that was coming!:D

Now Wisz has got to Think about it!:D

Just Think BIGJOHN!

As soon as they get all Flow Rates down to .5 GPM on all Faucets & Shower Heads these TANKLESS Water Heaters are gonna work just fine!:D









[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
No way am I putting that much time and effort into a water heater. :) Maybe I'll just stick with the 40 gallon tank that is in there. I just hope the thing doesn't explode!

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.
 
>
>I Have Guys ask me all
>the time?
>
>You know a Good Carpenter?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Then where is all my referrals Bess!


2a0fcsk.gif
 
You are welcome Wiz, no problem!

If i were to go to my sink right now to say, wash up my lunch dishes and tidy up. My hot side water would only be a little better than warm to the touch. If i keep it set any higher, she really sucks down the propane. Now when i finished in the kitchen and go over to the W/Htr, i'll hear it kick on. WTF, i'm done and now it kicks on? This newly heated water will be plenty hot...but i already used the hot that i needed. This newly made hot water will sit in the tank, lose temp, might even reheat before i need hot again, and probably again, be just warm enough by the time i need hot water again.

It's a huge waste of energy, huge! Tankless is NOT for everybody or every situation. And they are on the pricy side to have swapped out. Still though, there are many people out there that seriously ought to think about going that way.

Joey




"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
>No way am I putting that
>much time and effort into
>a water heater. :) Maybe
>I'll just stick with the
>40 gallon tank that is
>in there. I just hope
>the thing doesn't explode!
>
>Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good
>health for granted because it
>can be gone in a
>heartbeat. Please go back and
>read the last line. This
>time really understand what it
>says.



JUDAS Wisz!

All this & You're gonna Pusssss out on it?

WTH?

I was Hopin you'd at least let sage have a shot at it!

I'll take a look at when you take your next Huntin Trip!:D










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Good decision ! Here in southern Utah we have very hard water . My last water heater lasted 11 years and I felt very good about that. I know when I lived in Southern California . Our water was great and we didn't need a water softener. But here it is a necessity. Electric water heater will generally last longer then gas water heaters. So you should get many good years of service.
 

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