Perfect Draw System

[jims]

Buzz, Elk96 and I could probably argue until our heads pop in regard to what is the "perfect" draw system for deer, elk, and antelope in Wyo. Buzz, Elk96, and Topgun are to one extreme that a random draw where everyone each year has the same chance to draw tags. Obviously I am somewhat to the other extreme and believe a pt system similar to what currently exists for Wyo nonres works well in a system where there is a large turnover of tags and only a few extremely tough draw units exist. Will this system work 10 to 20 years from today..maybe not, but that's what I'd like each of you to state. Think both short and long term!

Obviously no draw system is perfect or pleases everyone. Whether Buzz and Elk96 believe it or not...not all Wyo residents like the current random draw system. There may also be some Wyo nonres that don't like the current deer, elk, and antelope system...please explain why and how it can be improved! I happen to agree with Buzz that it would be a mistake for Wyo to hastily adopt a system that is bound to cause problems in future years.

I thought I would start a post so that hunters can constructively work together and explain what they believe is a perfect draw system. Think about what you like and dislike about other state's systems and what you believe would work in Wyo.

Obviously other posts seem to drag on and on with a lot of arguing. This post is meant for suggestions/recommendations ONLY. Please only post once (Buzz , Topgun, Elks96, and myself included that means you!). If Buzz, Topgun, and Elk96 try to sabotage this post and don't allow others to voice their opinion without criticizing, it clearly shows that they are only interested in their own agendas and no one else's opinions matters. Hopefully Buzz will give specific details on why they he likes the current res random draw and what advantages it has over pref/bonus pt systems...and will leave it at that! There are definite advantages to all systems.

Please describe what you believe is a perfect draw system and leave it at that! I plan on posting only once and don't plan on criticizing anyone else's recommendations or opinions.

 

[TOPGUN]

A basic random draw with the possibility of also having a set number of years before you can apply again for a hard tag once you do draw or extra chances each year until drawn! The time period could possibly be based on the draw odds for a unit (10% odds= 10 year wait, 20% odds=5 year wait, etc.). However, extra chances each year you don't draw would be much simpler to do.

 

[elks96]

Random draw the very best. Equal chance for everyone every year. But since we have became a society of entitlement, and everyone gets a ribbon even if they suck, we should only go as far as random draw with mandatory wait periods for tags with less than 50% odds.

Jims, you pointed out the very issue with all PP systems... 10 years in they suck and need to be changed, but how can you ever hope to make meaningful change to a system that people have invested 10 years into? You can't and you won't. Once a system starts there is very little that can be accomplished since people are stuck...

 

[jims]

With the increasing demand for a limited supply of tags most Western states have switched from a random to a pref/bonus point system. Although a random draw gives everyone that applies similar chances each year to draw it has it's short comings. Not only are there more applicants that apply each year but some hunters draw multiple tags while others draw none. This means that potentially draw odds will continue to drop each year in a random draw system as more and more applicants apply. Without a waiting list plus new applicants joining the draw each year draw odds will continue to drop.

Many hunters believe that once a tag is drawn a hunter should step in back of the line and allow those that have applied for tags longer a better chance to draw tags. Some states have "waiting periods" or "once in a lifetime" tags to allow others that haven't drawn a better chance to draw extremely high demand tags.

Most pref/bonus pt systems have 2 things in common. 1) After a tag is drawn a hunters pts return to 0. 2) These systems allow those that have applied the longest a better chance to draw tags. Some argue this isn't fair to young hunters and those that are just starting out. I agree completely; however, with application costs at a premium I believe those that have invested both time and $ by applying the longest should be rewarded. Most pref/bonus pt systems give everyone a chance of drawing tags whether they are young hunters or hunters that have applied for the same tag their entire life.

Pref pt system similar to Colo where all tags are allocated to those with highest pref pts is bound for failure unless there is a large turnover of tags. Colo has noticed pt creep in many units because demand is so high for few tags issued. Obviously winterkill, wolves, disease, poor fawn/calf recruitment, etc impact tag numbers. Fewer tags mean possibility of quicker pt creep. Although I have drawn many tags in Colo I agree with others that young or new hunters should have opportunity to draw tags in all units. Currently the toughest units in Colo are pretty much impossible for anyone other than those with max pts to draw. A pref pt system similar to this in Colo or Wyo is bound for failure. Wyo has witnessed failure with the current moose/sheep pref pt system and I am sure this is one reason residents are weary of any draw system.

What systems will possibly work in the next 10 to 20 years in Wyoming? As Wyo and each state's human population continues to rise demand for all tags will continue to rise. Years with winterkill, drought, predators, loss of critical habitat, etc could make tags even tougher than they already are to draw.

The next closest system to the random draw is likely NV's bonus pt system. Everyone is eligible to draw all tags every year ....not just those with the highest pts. NV's system actually cubes the number of years an applicant has applied. If you look at the NV draw stats you will notice that hunters w/0 pts draw tags every year but those that have applied for more years are given a little better chance to draw.

UT's system is fairly similar to NV but tags are segmented into random and bonus pt pools. In the random pool everyone has a chance to draw tags and in the bonus pt pool everyone has a chance to draw. Those with highest bonus pts have a little better chance to draw. This is similar to Wyo's current nonres system other than Wyo has a random plus pref pt pool. Everyone with highest pts are the only ones that can draw tags in the pref pt pool. This system has worked great for me for years and I've drawn many great Wyo tags...maybe not the best/highest demand units in Wyo but I've harvested some great animals and had quality experiences! This system works great in Wyo...especially for antelope where there is a high turnover of tags. Most Wyo antelope units take 0 to 3 pts to draw! Those that want to wait for a premium unit have a great chance some day of drawing that tag.

Many would argue that UT's random/bonus pt system is fairer to everyone vs WY's nonres random/pref pt system. Everyone has the chance of drawing tags in both the random plus bonus pt pools in UT's system. Both UT and NV's systems would benefit those that like to apply for the toughest draw odd tags in the state plus those that like to hunt better draw odds units. I haven't heard too many complaints from NV or UT residents about either of these systems....and I know lots of hunters that have drawn once in a lifetime tags with these systems.

I believe either of these systems would work very well in Wyo in the years to come. There is actually no point creep with either the NV or UT systems since everyone has the chance to draw every tag issued.

Wyo's current nonres pref pt system works great for those that like to draw units with less than max pts but those hunters that like to hunt high demand tags will find it tougher and tougher to draw these tags 10 to 20 years down the road...similar to what is currently happening with the random draw for residents. I have drawn great tags in Wyo with the current pref pt system that I never could seem to draw as a resident in the random draw.

If you think about it point creep happens every year in a totally random draw system....just no one really mentions it. Random tag draw odds continue to drop each year as more applicants vie for tags. Those that draw tags continue to apply and don't go to the end of the line like other draw systems!
If I was going to select a draw system that would likely be a compromise and work well for the majority of hunters I would have to go with systems similar to NV or UT. If you agree that those that apply longer should have a little better chance to draw tags NV's system is likely the best system currently available for high demand tags. A little more conservative approach is UT's random/bonus pt system.

The main benefit that both UT and NV's bonus systems are: 1) All hunters have a chance to draw tags each year, 2) Hunters that have applied longer have a little better chance of drawing tags, 3) Draw odds likely improve every year you apply rather than decrease (point creep) as with totally random draw or pure pref pt systems.

 

[piper]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-13 AT 01:48PM (MST)[p]good post jims, I agree with you on Utah and Nevada, those are the best and fairest systems out there for high demand tags, and both those states have a lot of demand.
Colorados pure preference point system works for the high turnover stuff, but on the high demand stuff it leaves a lot to be desired, I agree.


If I were in charge I would go with either a standard bonus point system in Wyoming, or a preference point system and have a maximum of three preference points.
The reason I wouldn't go with a pure preference point system for residents in Wyoming is because there is some high demand stuff for elk and deer, the demand just seems to get higher every year and that would likely set up point creep just like Colorado experiences.
Its easier for states to start with a moderate system and possibly modify it as time and the demand for tags increases, as opposed to putting in place something like Colorados pure preference point or Wyomings 75% max preference point systems and then back off, as both states have recently tried to do.

 

[treedagain]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-13 AT 02:34PM (MST)[p]to give a little perspective on this issue: in ALL states i put in for EVERY TAG POSSIBLE. most years 30 plus tags applied

WYOMING since 1992 i have drawn 1 elk tag in a premium unit, funny thing it was on my 1st try...lol... so in the next 12 years i have not drawn ANY ELK TAGS..deer and antelope all left-over or 2nd or 3rd choices........
so since the preference system (7 years) 0 elk or deer and 1 antelope tag in a semi-premium unit. but i COULD cash in my points and hunt this year.

IDAHO since 1990 i have drawn 1 deer tag in the drawing in a unit that at times was a 50/50 to draw. 23 years of buying a license to apply. with ANY bonus, preference system i would have drawn at least 8 more tags

COLORADO 14 years of applying 2 elk tags 1 average area and 1 premuim and 1 deer tag in a premium area

NEW MEXICO 14 years of applying with 1 elk tag in a average area

ARIZONA 1 elk tag in about 10 years of applying....screwed up on my deer app 1 year, DO NOT USE THE FAX ON DEMAND, lost my place in line over .25 cents.....have not applied since

NEVADA i have drawn 1 elk, 1 deer and 1 antelope in the past 12 years

UTAH since 1990 i have drawn 2 sheep tags, 2 bull elk tags, and 1 deer tag. give me 5 years and i can draw a Mtn Goat tag. only 1 of those tags was out of the bonus pool (sheep).

MONTANA, about 5 or 6 years of trying to draw a deer tag and none to show

 

[whitwell_56]

I think a mandatory waiting period is about the best option...It improves the odds for people that don't draw each year. Also, all those who have not drawn still have an equal chance at tags.

 

[WapitiBob]

Every nr is included in wyomings pp and random draws.

 

[Silentstalker]

Random draw is the very best way for all hunters IMO. Anytime you go to a point system you begin to get point creep and those kids who will grow up into hunters will eventually get to a point that they will never get tags.

Someone said utahs system was the best. I would argue it is the worst. For most legitimate hunts for sheep, moose, buffalo or goat, youth will never draw. They are so far behind in points and permits are so limited that they will not live long enough to ever draw a tag. In utah you have to pick a species. 1 at a time. No realistic chance of ever drawing. Even what are considered average elk units are 16+ years before you can draw and with point creep once again youth or new hunters will never have a realistic chance to draw a rifle tag.

Unless there are huge tag numbers, point creep will ruin any and all bonus point systems. What good is a resource if you cant hunt it.

If residents dont want a point system, why push for one? As it is now, they can apply and draw most units and seem pretty happy.

 

[piper]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-13 AT 07:41PM (MST)[p] Silentstalker - Wow, I thought I got depressed this time of year. I would argue about your assessment of Utahs draw system, and what does this mean? "What good is a resource if you cant hunt it? strange thinking if you ask me.

My nephew drew a limited entry book cliffs bull tag just last year, he was 17 years old.
I have drawn 2 limited entry bull tags, one limited entry deer tag, and one antelope tag. all of them after the point system was implemented, and all of them as a nonresident.

What in the world are you talking about? most all of the top point holders in Utah have drawn and many elk hunts take far less than maximum to be assured of a tag. If you want meat, hunt a cow elk, or a spike, and if you want to hunt bulls every year, then there are general areas in Utah to hunt, but if you want a great elk hunt put in for the limited areas.
I'm sorry but people can't have everything every year, its just not possible these days

I have some advise, take some antidepressants and lay off the booze for a while.

 

[piper]

sorry jims, I forgot that you asked for no replies, I got carried away.

 

[jims]

Piper, I understand completely that it is sometimes tough not to comment on other people's posts. I'm biting my lip not posting anything as well but please only post one time unless you have something constructive to add to your original post! There have been some great comments and I hope they continue! It sure is interesting hearing different perspectives...keep them coming!

 

[WapitiBob]

Wait periods don't work.
I draw a random tag in a 10% unit and wait in the bleachers for 10 years while Topgun draws a tag and hunts every year cause he apply's in a 90% unit.
What happened to the draw a tag and go to the back of the line?

 

[elks96]

>Wait periods don't work.
>I draw a random tag in
>a 10% unit and wait
>in the bleachers for 10
>years while Topgun draws a
>tag and hunts every year
>cause he apply's in a
>90% unit.
>What happened to the draw a
>tag and go to the
>back of the line?


So the problem with the back of the line is any new hunter will be placed there and as a result they may never have a chance at being in front of the line.

The wait period could be a couple different things... For example you draw a 10% tag maybe your not allowed to draw anything with less than 20% odds for 10 years. 30-50% wait for 5 years. But can still apply for a 50% or better odds... Lets say the 2nd year you draw a 50% maybe you have to wait just 1 year. So forth. Or maybe in the 10 years you give up all LQ hunts and only get to hunt OTC? It could be set up such that it would work.

 

[Triple_BB]

Nevada has the best PP system going. Everyone has a chance. No whining that the kiddies will never draw. Next best is a waiting period, say 3 years or so. It wouldn't guarantee a tag, but you'll have improved draw odds in all areas, some better than others. I'd make it so you could still apply for 2nd & 3rd choice areas every year so you still have a chance of picking up left over or under subscribed tags. Lastly, you could still hunt general season areas every year if you wanted...

 

[Zim]

To me, the perfect draw system is ANY system in which the ground floor buyers don't get thrown under the bus by having politicians cheapen their points down the road in any way, shape, or form. I know of only 2 states that have done so over the last 15 years.......AZ & NH. As far as I can tell anyway. So those are perfect to me.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Hate Club

 

[WapitiBob]

"The wait period could be a couple different things... For example you draw a 10% tag maybe your not allowed to draw anything with less than 20% odds for 10 years. 30-50% wait for 5 years. But can still apply for a 50% or better odds... Lets say the 2nd year you draw a 50% maybe you have to wait just 1 year. So forth. Or maybe in the 10 years you give up all LQ hunts and only get to hunt OTC? It could be set up such that it would work."

I like that idea. When discussing NM a cpl years ago I mention the same type thing. Wait periods based on the hunt type. Std, Quality, or HD. You were on a wait list for the hunt type you drew but could apply in one of the other types.

 

[eelgrass]

Nevada has a pretty good system.

The problem with any LE hunt is that a lot of people have the notion that drawing the tag is more important than the hunt itself. A lot of people put in for hard to draw areas just because it is so desirable to obtain a tag. "I know nothing about the area. I don't even know exactly where it is. All I know is I want the tag because everyone else does." It becomes the hunt itself. Which leads to people putting in their wives, kids, and friends who don't even hunt. "My 14 year old daughter drew the tag. Now I need to teach her how to shoot and buy her some camo. She's been dreaming about this sheep hunt ever since she was 3." Sure she has.

I remember the original intent of a LE area was because an area had very few animals and could not stand the pressure of a lot of hunters.

Now this whole LE points thing is a game within the game.

Eel

 

[nontypical]

You nailed it,eel.

102 deer is a perfect example.10 yrs ago,mostly locals put in for the unit,BECAUSE IT IS CLOSE TO HOME.Now people from all over the state put in because of the "trophy quality".And 6 family members draw it(it happens a lot).Then they ##### because they can't find a deer over 150".

For the sake of simplicity,the Nevada BP system is hands down the best in the west.Tweak that a little bit,and we might have a decent system.

 

[maxxbob1]

First let me say that my objective is to hunt elk every year in an area where I have a chance to run across a monster. I live in New Mexico, I am primarily a bow hunter, and our system works perfectly for me. NO POINTS NEEDED!!! I get to bow hunt for elk every year! On my application, I get three choices - first choice is for a dream hunt with low drawing odds, second choice is for a really good hunt with about 25% draw odds, third choice is for a decent hunt with really good odds. In the last 15 years, I've only NOT drawn once that I can remember and I have gotten my first choice on 3 or 4 occasions. (NM recently changed the rules for Non-residents, so NM is not good or fair for Non-res hunters.) However, I also like to rifle hunt. So Wyoming has my second favorite system. I can hunt every year in Wyoming with my rifle and there are a lot of General Tag areas that are good elk spots with potential for an occasional monster. I used to alternate between doing my rifle hunt in Montana and Wyoming to avoid the "Special" price in Wyoming every other year, but I don't like to compete with the wolves and grizzlies in Montana any more. The Wyoming system works for me and I hope they never change it. I'm not real happy with the cost that I have to pay, but I'll keep paying it because hunting is what I live for. I would prefer to NEVER have to deal with points, but like I said, the Wyoming system works for me!

 

[strang]

My two bits worth, I am a resident hunter and and out fitters and this is this system I have been proposing.
Wyoming Big Game license fee increase


The Wyoming G&F is currently looking for ways to increase revenue to the department. The primary result will be an increase in resident and nonresident license fees. This is a proposal that would let base license fees remain at or near current pricing and still achieve a substantial revenue increase to the department.
You may or may not know that the way the department structures its license drawing system presently. This quote is from the Wyoming state legislature website re license draw procedure.
? ITD?s mainframe computer has an internal random number generator. This copyrighted generator creates a nine-digit random number for each applicant included in a particular draw. Each random number is between 0 and 1 (i.e. 0.362598731), and each number assigned has an equal chance of occurring. The computer assigns the random numbers immediately prior to conducting a draw.
The computer sorts the random numbers from lowest to highest for the applicants queried. The computer then selects the application with the lowest random number and reviews an applicant's first choice for area and type. It assigns the license if sufficient quota is available for the desired area. Antelope, deer, and elk applicants are allowed to enter up to five choices on an application, in case licenses in some areas and types have already been awarded. Beginning in 1998, these applicants will only have three choices, while moose applicants will have two.
The computer initially processes all first choices on all applications. If an area and type is full, and an applicant's first choice cannot be fulfilled, that application is suspended in a temporary file until the computer has reviewed and assigned licenses to all available first choices. The computer retrieves the applications held in the temporary file and goes through the same process, using the application?s same random number, for second, third, fourth, and fifth queries.? This selection method often makes your second choice option superfluous. Since all first choices are processed first leaving GEN license, sub par, doe fawn, or cow calf permits as the only possible draws for second choice.
The "Fair License Fee Proposal"
It suggests rather than raise license fees, the Wyoming G&F ammend the verbage of the ?Computerized Draw Process? paragraph 4 by deleting first choices on all applications. If an area and type is full, and an applicant's first choice cannot be fulfilled, that application is suspended in a temporary file until the computer has reviewed and assigned licenses to all available first choices. The computer retrieves the applications held in the temporary file and goes through the same process, using the application?s same random number, for second, third, fourth, and fifth queries.? and replacing with ?The computer initially processes all choices on all applications. ? If your application is drawn your first choice, second choice, and third choice are considered before your license is suspended or considered unsuccessful. This proposal would apply to deer, antelope, and elk applications only. Presently non resident pref. point applicants have two opportunities to have their first choice option drawn. First in the pref. point draw, and then they are pooled with all other remaining applicants and their first choice is considered again in the random draw. This procedure increases the number of random draw applicants by as much as 75%. Making a successful draw for a non pointed random draw applicant that much more difficult. In this proposal A pref. point applicant would never drop to random draw pool Aplicants in the preference point draw would be processed using their preference points if successful in their 2nd or 3rd choice options within licenses allocated to the preference point drawing and according to their preference point rankings. This would also help break the log jam in the current preference point system. Preference point applicants wishing to retain their preference points if unsuccessful in their first choice option would simply not chose to apply for a second or third choice option.
The revenue increase portion of this plan comes in the form of an additional application charge for each of the second and third choice options, A person applying for only a first choice would see no increase in license costs. Applicants opting for additional choices would pay an additional fee for each additional choice but would genuinely have a chance at that tag, as is generally not the case presently. Youth applications would not be charged this fee and could not be designated as party organizer on group applications. All second and third choices which are cow/calf, doe/fawn, or anterless permits would not be accessed an additional application fee and preference point applicants would not spend their points if successful on these choices.
The big plus is an applicant could apply for those highly coveted tags without hurting your chances of drawing your regular first choice option.
If you agree that the "Fair License Fee Proposal" is a viable alternative to substantial license fee increases please share this page with others. Print it and contact Wyoming Game and Fish and let your feelings be known.
The spreadsheet below reflects the income this proposal would have generated in the 2012 draw had it been in force




CONTACT LIST

HD 60 Representative John Freeman 2340 North Carolina Way Green River WY 82935 (307) 875-7378 [email protected]
HD 20 Representative Kathy Davison P.O. Box 602 Kemmerer WY 83101 (307) 877-6483 [email protected]
HD 36 Representative Gerald Gay 364 South Socony Place Casper WY 82609 (307) 265-5187 [email protected]
HD 18 Representative Allen Jaggi P.O. Box 326 Lyman WY 82937 (307) 786-2817 [email protected]
HD 24 Representative Samuel Krone P.O. Box 2481 Cody WY 82414 (307) 587-4530 (307) 272-0082 [email protected]
SD 21 Senator Bruce Burns P.O. Box 6027 Sheridan WY 82801 (307) 672-6491 [email protected]
SD 17 Senator Leland Christensen 220 West Alta Alta WY 83414 (307) 353-8204 [email protected]
SD 16 Senator Dan Dockstader P.O. Box 129 Afton WY 83110 (307) 885-9705 [email protected]
SD 01 Senator Ogden Driskill P.O. Box 155 Devils Tower WY 82714 (307) 680-5555 [email protected]
SD 08 Senator Floyd Esquibel 1222 West 31st St Cheyenne WY 82001 (307) 638-6529 [email protected]

Wyoming Game and Fish 307-777-4600
live links are available @ www.drawalicensenow.blogspot.com

 

[strang]

Please describe what you believe is a perfect draw system and leave it at that! I plan on posting only once and don't plan on criticizing anyone else's recommendations or opinions. LETS SEE IF EVERYONE CAN ABIDE BT THIS

 

[ICMDEER]

I have tried to stay clear of this issue because of the polarity and derision of those who disagree. But I agree with what seems to be the biggest group; Nevada's system is the best and fairest. I generaly draw Nevada about every 5 years, but the hunts are uncrowded and I have a good experience there. I really like the fact that everyone has a chance to draw any license, and they do have special youth hunts and preferences.

As an outfitter, I often hear that outfitters want preferred license pools. I've never been an advocate for that. But I do think landowners should get licenses (with stipulations). Those licenses should be tied to a biologically sound plan and should require access for a percentage of resident hunters. Right now, most to nearly all of the best ranches in Wyoming are tied up by outfitters or the ranchers take their own hunters. Doing that would at least allow some access to residents for quality, private-land hunts.

I am also an advocate for more seasons and shorter seasons, like is done in Nevada, Colorado, Utah, and New Mexico. I can't understand the downside of having separate licenses and seasons for archery, muzzleloaders (primitive) and maybe an early and late rifle. It reduces the number of hunters in a hunt area at any given time and allows for a more positive experience.

We often hear of the need to recruit young hunters. To me, retention of older hunters is a more critical problem. Most hunters tire of the crowds and poor quality hunts on Wyoming's public lands. I believe that if we make some of these well-documented positive changes, we'll have more hunters in the "mature" category and as a result, more advocates for our hunting industry - and Wyoming's precious wildlife. And more parents who really enjoy the experience and take their kids hunting.

Thanks for starting this thread. It's nice to see some diverse opinions without the usual personal attacks. Well done.

 

[Bill_in_MI]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-13 AT 08:05PM (MST)[p]Agree on the preserving old hunters. Very few young hunters will get in the game if 1)opportunity slips for their dad's and 2) if playing the game gets 2 expensive.


Perfect system for WY that has plenty of elk/deer/ant tags:

1)Nevada type system with a license cost similar to UT, but refundable like NM. Points build for those that keep the license. Everyone is in a draw-able pool.

2)Divide 50/50 tags for high point holders with 50% avail to all the rest. Only if there are at least 2 tags otherwise random draw.

3)85/15 split Res/NR- Halve the current ridicules point cost to make it easier on young families (combined with returnable NR lic if not drawn).

4)Establish a similar to NM High demand unit designation by previous years odds. Upon drawing a HD unit impose a 5 year wait before you can apply for another HD unit. No waiting period for Standard unit.

5)Divide hunts into shorter time periods so there are more tags sold where the success rates wont over harvest.

WY makes more money. Sell more overall tags with more divided seasons. They sell a hunting license reasonably to those who are successful and/or point keepers. They still sell points albeit for less. More family type applications for those that just want to roll the dice with minimal investment resulting in higher recruitment (long range licence sales...). Give people additional draw oppurtunity for being in the game without overly limiting new hunters jumping in down the road. Gives oppurtunity to meat hunters vs. trophy hunters. Manage hunt tag numbers appropriate for season. Non rut=more tags as there is less harvest, unless its a winter ground/migration hunt that would likely be a HD hunt.

Bill

 

[WapitiBob]

not bad

 

[DirtyTough]

I like Nevada's system, except for the fact that they look at all 5 choices before moving on to the next guy.

Add Idaho's system where you can apply for deer and elk, or a OIL tag and it would almost be perfect. Then you get to hunt what you want most.