I thought I would stir up some discusion. It frustrates me from time to time the way our general units are managed. I know the game and fish needs to generate revenue. I was also under the assumption that they are in place to manage the critters. That being said, what ideas are out there on how the game and fish could manage game and people for the benefit of both.
people management and general areas
- Thread starter teamhoyt
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Are you talking about general license areas for residents or the entire scheme of things for everyone? I noticed you just voted for #1 to leave things as is in the question thread that Smokestick started and didnt' make any comments. Since you started this thread, do you have any ideas to get the ball rolling here?
sjhgraysage
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Reading between the lines I think I can sense the frustration. We all would like to have a better chance to hunt, see, kill a quality animal every year. (We also don't care to be surronded by a sea of orange everywhere.) We usually are hunting general over the counter tag units and typically don't get that chance every hunting season. I know that is my situation hunting in WA state.
The only answer I can see is limited entry hunting. Alot of guys are absolutely against that because "I want to be able to hunt every year". Although I can see a system that has plenty of quality units and plenty of opportunity units (read - you can or will draw every year). Then a hunter could choose what they want. IMO the bottom line is general units won't produce a lot of quality animals but you can at least hunt every year.
Am I close?
The only answer I can see is limited entry hunting. Alot of guys are absolutely against that because "I want to be able to hunt every year". Although I can see a system that has plenty of quality units and plenty of opportunity units (read - you can or will draw every year). Then a hunter could choose what they want. IMO the bottom line is general units won't produce a lot of quality animals but you can at least hunt every year.
Am I close?
Put all license sales into the state general fund, and have the legislature set their budget. The WY G&F manages money not animals. You will never see decisions based on good science. All decisions are based upon the all mighty dollar! That's the down fall of the current system.
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-11 AT 07:33PM (MST)[p] G14,
This has little to do with revenue and more to do with the apathetic general public that feel that once you get resident status your are entitled to hunt mule deer 60+ days a year.
Most of the general public is quick to ##### about hunter overcrowding, hunt quality, or quality of animals but when asked about what to do to fix it most residents want to see nothing changed. There was a perfect example of this at the Wyoming range forums held earlier this year.
Heres a few ideas that I've heard floated.
1. Pick a opener. Hunt Sept 15th, Oct 1st, or Oct 15th, not all three.
2. Pick a season, Archery, Rifle, or muzzleloader (you would have to create a muzzleloader hunt). Pick one. If additional harvest is needed allow hunters to hunt multiple hunts (this would address the need for more flexibility on the east side of the state) if you need to hunt 60 days a year, hunt elk.
3. Cut commissioner tags to 3 per year per commissioner. Commissioner tags should have stipulations that monies earned should benefit wildlife not general fundraising. There should also be some way to cap the amount of commissioner tags on a unit. Some deer units have been hammered by commissioner tag holders.
4. Raise resident permit fees, cut nonresident LE tags to a rate that is more in line with the rest of the resident states. (Utah <10%, New Mexico 12%, Arizona <10%, Nevada <10% you can see a trend). No change to general NR permit allocations.
The problem we run into is we still have some of the best general hunting in the west. When it further deteriorates Wyoming residents will come together and demand a change. Until then???????
This has little to do with revenue and more to do with the apathetic general public that feel that once you get resident status your are entitled to hunt mule deer 60+ days a year.
Most of the general public is quick to ##### about hunter overcrowding, hunt quality, or quality of animals but when asked about what to do to fix it most residents want to see nothing changed. There was a perfect example of this at the Wyoming range forums held earlier this year.
Heres a few ideas that I've heard floated.
1. Pick a opener. Hunt Sept 15th, Oct 1st, or Oct 15th, not all three.
2. Pick a season, Archery, Rifle, or muzzleloader (you would have to create a muzzleloader hunt). Pick one. If additional harvest is needed allow hunters to hunt multiple hunts (this would address the need for more flexibility on the east side of the state) if you need to hunt 60 days a year, hunt elk.
3. Cut commissioner tags to 3 per year per commissioner. Commissioner tags should have stipulations that monies earned should benefit wildlife not general fundraising. There should also be some way to cap the amount of commissioner tags on a unit. Some deer units have been hammered by commissioner tag holders.
4. Raise resident permit fees, cut nonresident LE tags to a rate that is more in line with the rest of the resident states. (Utah <10%, New Mexico 12%, Arizona <10%, Nevada <10% you can see a trend). No change to general NR permit allocations.
The problem we run into is we still have some of the best general hunting in the west. When it further deteriorates Wyoming residents will come together and demand a change. Until then???????
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-11 AT 08:00PM (MST)[p]
I would have to disagree with your assessment of the number of nonresident LE tags that are allocated. I don't believe that it's hurting the resident hunting at all compared to the way they allow residents to hunt mule deer in so many general areas every year they apply. I also find fault with the theory that putting the money into the general fund is the way to go as was mentioned above. On the contrary, I believe it would then be so politically run that it would be a disaster compared to now.
I would have to disagree with your assessment of the number of nonresident LE tags that are allocated. I don't believe that it's hurting the resident hunting at all compared to the way they allow residents to hunt mule deer in so many general areas every year they apply. I also find fault with the theory that putting the money into the general fund is the way to go as was mentioned above. On the contrary, I believe it would then be so politically run that it would be a disaster compared to now.
1. I agree with Topgun, when the politicians control the funding, everything gets political and totally screwed up.
2. Why have any commissioner's tags AT ALL?? Let everyone have the same chances at getting a tag. Why set aside tags for the rich guys?
3. I really like the way Wyoming runs things for the most part. There are many good units that you can draw easily or hunt on the general tag that are great units if you put some work into it. There are lots of other units where it's easy to fill a tag if that's what you want to do. And, if you don't draw, you can get a pretty good left over tag.
2. Why have any commissioner's tags AT ALL?? Let everyone have the same chances at getting a tag. Why set aside tags for the rich guys?
3. I really like the way Wyoming runs things for the most part. There are many good units that you can draw easily or hunt on the general tag that are great units if you put some work into it. There are lots of other units where it's easy to fill a tag if that's what you want to do. And, if you don't draw, you can get a pretty good left over tag.
Wyoming has some very good habitat, and a good amount of roadless country, the game and fish has little to do with that. The game and fish dept. does a good job managing private land conflicts,a good job with Grizzly bear issues does a pretty good job with fish habitat, but they have no vision or show no leadership when it comes to mule deer. I just don't think most get it and many don't really care about deer hunting itself. Its not going to get better, just worse, the roadless comments make me laugh, take a trip to the Salt river range about the middle of next month, and tell me about roadless country keeping out rif raf, go to little granite creek trail head at the end of Sept, I bet you have never seen so many horse trailers in one spot. Either limit the amount of hunting pressure, or have it like it currently is, (Bad and getting worse), there is no other way.
Topgun,
I agree the nonresident le tags are not hurting the over quality of Wyoming. I should of saved that comment for a different post. I'm not anti nonresident I just get sick of residents crying about how much permits cost and in the same breath complaining about nr hunters. I also believe all western states should allocate the same number of le tags to nonresidents. You pick the %.
I agree the nonresident le tags are not hurting the over quality of Wyoming. I should of saved that comment for a different post. I'm not anti nonresident I just get sick of residents crying about how much permits cost and in the same breath complaining about nr hunters. I also believe all western states should allocate the same number of le tags to nonresidents. You pick the %.
PleaseDear
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I am not going to pull the anti-non-ressy card as we all are non-ressy's in every state but 1.
The more non-ressy tags given the more $$ it generates for the state they hunt and not only revenue for F&G but all the local bsns and fuel tax and--and--and $$$---one would be talking 1-2 ressy tags gained by cutting a percentage of tags issued from 16-20 % to 10% in most true low tag draw LQ units.....not worth the overal lo$$ to me at all.
crowded gen hunts????
I see maybe one or two other bow hunters on my bow elk hunts on the mountain.
I really do not see any real crowd control issue's at all.
If and when I have to go and hunt the rifle dates to fill a tag---I see alot more crowd control issue's but it has not hindered my hunt as it is pretty easy to get away from the initial crowds.
I would be totally against any Pick Your Weapon only penalty that really takes away opportunity and puts hunters in a sheep corral of restricted dates Only.
One of you guys went off on somebody a while back and said if you like another state then move there-----well if ya do not like Wyo---......???
Robb
The more non-ressy tags given the more $$ it generates for the state they hunt and not only revenue for F&G but all the local bsns and fuel tax and--and--and $$$---one would be talking 1-2 ressy tags gained by cutting a percentage of tags issued from 16-20 % to 10% in most true low tag draw LQ units.....not worth the overal lo$$ to me at all.
crowded gen hunts????
I see maybe one or two other bow hunters on my bow elk hunts on the mountain.
I really do not see any real crowd control issue's at all.
If and when I have to go and hunt the rifle dates to fill a tag---I see alot more crowd control issue's but it has not hindered my hunt as it is pretty easy to get away from the initial crowds.
I would be totally against any Pick Your Weapon only penalty that really takes away opportunity and puts hunters in a sheep corral of restricted dates Only.
One of you guys went off on somebody a while back and said if you like another state then move there-----well if ya do not like Wyo---......???
Robb
grosventrehunter
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For the most part I like Wyoming the way it is, however, I believe having a state wide opener would help out a lot. And cut some of the season dates back a little. When you can hunt for almost a month (G/H) with a rifle it doesn't give them much of a chance.
Piper, I couldn't agree more in regards to your comment about the Little Granite Creek trail head. What a joke! Kinda sad looking at the trailhead/ camping area after the season. Most of the non resident hunters on that trail are breaking the law by entering the wilderness without a guide/resident.
Piper, I couldn't agree more in regards to your comment about the Little Granite Creek trail head. What a joke! Kinda sad looking at the trailhead/ camping area after the season. Most of the non resident hunters on that trail are breaking the law by entering the wilderness without a guide/resident.
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-11 AT 08:36AM (MST)[p]Glad I could make you laugh piper . . . I think the Wyoming/Salt River range wilderness areas are a bit different as they are so popular. Certainly there limiting tags would be the way to go. Guys are willing to put in the effort there to bring horses or hire it done. I don't care how you slice it, I'd rather hunt amongst several pack strings than several pick-ups/campers/atv's.
Other areas of the state have a road up every draw in great deer habitat. Limiting access there would make for better habitat and hunting. This could be done in relatively small, but specific areas that have the best habitat.
I've hunted areas with roads that have restricted access (roads only used by foot/horse/bike traffic) and it makes for a better experience in smaller areas.
Other areas of the state have a road up every draw in great deer habitat. Limiting access there would make for better habitat and hunting. This could be done in relatively small, but specific areas that have the best habitat.
I've hunted areas with roads that have restricted access (roads only used by foot/horse/bike traffic) and it makes for a better experience in smaller areas.
Piper is the typical resident. "Problem what problem "? Its why well wait to make changes until its completely in the toilet.
I backpack on 4-6 miles and last year I killed. A 185+ buck. I only saw three other hunters. My spot is the exception to the rule. Ask the guys in Evanston, baggs, and most of region g or h if there is a overcrowding problem. Most will agree hunt quality is not what it should be. A few of us have physical ability or horses and we can get away from the crowds but lots of guys can't. The hunters aren't the only ones who suffer in high hunter density areas. I believe high hunter density affects health of herds, but we all no there is no problem with the health of the mule deer herd in Wyoming?
I backpack on 4-6 miles and last year I killed. A 185+ buck. I only saw three other hunters. My spot is the exception to the rule. Ask the guys in Evanston, baggs, and most of region g or h if there is a overcrowding problem. Most will agree hunt quality is not what it should be. A few of us have physical ability or horses and we can get away from the crowds but lots of guys can't. The hunters aren't the only ones who suffer in high hunter density areas. I believe high hunter density affects health of herds, but we all no there is no problem with the health of the mule deer herd in Wyoming?
G
GntShedz
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If you look in the parking lots of most game and fish stations you will notice by all the new trucks not even being used that they are generating enough revenue. I wish there was more checks and balances in the management process. For instance those who profit off of the killing/hunting of big game animals should not be the ones setting the number of tags and judging for themselves the overall health of the herd. They are simply not making it through hunting seasons. These deer are over hunted. We need as many mule deer as we can possibly handle. Whats going to happen with our low numbers when we really get a bad winter? If the g&f isnt going to do it, take it upon yourselves are responsible caring outdoorsman to take mature prime bucks only and let the rest walk. i have no problems not filling a tag if its not worth filling.
ColoradoOak
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FWIW, I had the WY G&F call a few nights ago to do a deer hunter survey. The survey was pretty extensive...probably 40-50 questions. Some of the things they asked included:
Has quality increased or decreased the last 5 years
Do I think there are more or fewer deer now than 5 years ago
Was the number of deer I saw acceptable
Was the number of bucks I saw acceptable
Was the size of bucks I saw acceptable
How many points and how wide is a "trophy" buck to me
Do I prefer more opportunity or bigger trophies and fewer tags
Do I think habitat quality is important
Do I support WY G&F increasing habitat
Do I think predators are an issue
Would I support predator control
Do I think ATV's have a negative impact
Would I support ATV restrictions
Do I think shed hunting is a negative impact
Would I support shed hunting restrictions
What do I think is negatively impacting deer
What do I think is negatively impacting habitat
Do I think the weather has had an affect on deer herds
I can't remember all the questions, but it seemed like the survey went on and on.
Has quality increased or decreased the last 5 years
Do I think there are more or fewer deer now than 5 years ago
Was the number of deer I saw acceptable
Was the number of bucks I saw acceptable
Was the size of bucks I saw acceptable
How many points and how wide is a "trophy" buck to me
Do I prefer more opportunity or bigger trophies and fewer tags
Do I think habitat quality is important
Do I support WY G&F increasing habitat
Do I think predators are an issue
Would I support predator control
Do I think ATV's have a negative impact
Would I support ATV restrictions
Do I think shed hunting is a negative impact
Would I support shed hunting restrictions
What do I think is negatively impacting deer
What do I think is negatively impacting habitat
Do I think the weather has had an affect on deer herds
I can't remember all the questions, but it seemed like the survey went on and on.
Those questions alone cover a multitude of things affecting the herds, quantity, quality, etc. I see guys shooting little bucks that my Dad always appropriately called "milk suckers"! A lot of them are nonresident hunters used to hunting whitetails and when they see a mulie bigger than the whitetails they are used to hunting that deer is dead and he's probably only 2 1/2 years old or 3 1/2 at best! If many deer like that are shot and then you add in the decent bucks that start going nocturnal when they get to what I would consider shooting size, it'sa no wonder a lot of the guys that hunted in the good old days are crying "foul"!
Cahunter805
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Im a non resident and do feel WY is a great place to hunt. That said why is it that residents can purchase a deer tag and hunt all the general regions if they choose to. I personally feel it should be pick a region and thats it. You want to hunt region G then you apply for that region and hunt it. The F&G can set quotas for residents and nonresidents.
Sorry guys just got back. you guys have listed many of the things that I had in mind. face it you will never make everyone happy. I like to hunt every year, I do not like to hunt with a million people when I do go. BUT the bottom line is we need to manage our animals and our people. Where I hunt south of Rawlins there are thousands of people during deer and elk rifle seasons that is a fact. There are also alot of animals, that is a fact. Winter normally closes access to the forest around November 1st, fact. Rifle season run from Oct 1 this year to the 22 or so with a week break between deer and elk. last year was not that way. Then rifle opens for cow elk the month of november, on what can basically be called the winter range. SO here are a few of my thoughts. This area produces some good deer, as does the limited area near here. The limited area near here has good elk, 21 has good numbers. with a general deer season that runs on 3 weekend days this year, only 2 days a few years back, what happens to these deer? the majority of the population is hunting for a meat deer. with only a couple weekend days to hunt the first forkie that shows himself dies! with the number of people around they don't have any choice other than not fill the freezer. I am a firm beleiver that you have to allow these bucks to grow up. Also this area has the same feed, habitat, genetics to allow these animals to be big, this is the exception on the general. And the naboring limited entry produces. What does pursuing these animals for nearly 2 months do to the health of them going into winter, fawn survival and so on? I'm certian the deer are pressured during elk season and vice versa. So question. Could these seasons be combined? can we have 3 seasons like Colorado to spread out hunters? 4 points or better or shoot a doe? close roads? When we have a deer season that runs only one weekend and we are virtually forcing the meat hunters that need,want theirs freezers filled are we doing the right thing for the health of the herd?
nontypical
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Good points,teamhoyt.For a minute there I thought you were talking about region K!It's the same thing west of your hunting grounds!Yes,Wyoming has good hunting compared to other states!But deer hunting is heading down the toilet!FACT!It's only a matter of time before we turn into what Utah turned into!Those of us who have lived here for many decades know what it once was(and will never be again).Habitat encroachment,development-all that stuff is not going away.Couple that with predation and poor habitat conditions,and it doesn't bode well for mule deer in the west(not just Wy).Mulies are the "cash cow" for most G&F depts in the west,and for some strange reason that is beyond my comprehension,agencies continue to make hay off mule deer while their numbers are shrinking faster than any other big game species.I am of the opinion that something indeed needs to be done,and even though I don't get around as well as I once did,road closures would be a great first step.Like HiMtnHtr said-closures in specific areas would go a long ways towards a more quality hunting experience.G&F can't control development or habitat loss.They don't control predators and have no control over mother nature.The one thing they do control is us.They tell us when we can hunt and with what weapon,and for how long.It's up to them to change things,and they choose not to.They will only do something when our hunting changes into what PleaseDear moved away from.
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-11 AT 04:58PM (MST)[p]Just one thought on my original statement about the funds going into the general fund. I agree politicians would probably screw it up, no doubt. IMO, it can't get any worse. Let's say for example: A police officer's salary depends upon the revenue he generates off of tickets he writes. He would be writing a ton of tickets. People would say that is a conflict of interest, and it is. There is no difference in the Wyoming G&F. They sure aren't going to cut licenses that may affect their buddy having a job, or even them having a job. Therefore, they are managing what is best for them, and not what is best for elk or deer herds. It is a CONFLICT OF INTEREST!!!
What if the price of elk and deer licenses were the same. This would take away any favoritism by the WY G&F to manage for more elk. I don't know if this is a good idea. Thoughts????
I would like to see a muzzleloader season. I would also like to see it required you pick a weapon. This would be huge in the reduction of hunters in the field at a given time.
I would like to see a survey on how many hunters hunt every single opening day throughout the state. Personally, I don't think there are thousands, or even a thousand, hunters hunting every opener. If there are not thousands of hunters doing this, it would do nothing to drastically reduce hunting pressure.
It is my belief, if you are going to be a Wyoming Game and Fish Commissioner you should have to be a hunter, and had a hunting license within the last two years. Is there one Commissioner currently on the board that is a hunter? If someone knows please answer that.
I heard WY G&F uses counts that are 1 1/2 years old when recommending quotas. I don't know if this a fact, but if it is, it is another example of poor management. I heard they do this because the NR elk draw deadline is January. It may have been a rumor.
How about required survey reporting, or no license for the following year?
What if the price of elk and deer licenses were the same. This would take away any favoritism by the WY G&F to manage for more elk. I don't know if this is a good idea. Thoughts????
I would like to see a muzzleloader season. I would also like to see it required you pick a weapon. This would be huge in the reduction of hunters in the field at a given time.
I would like to see a survey on how many hunters hunt every single opening day throughout the state. Personally, I don't think there are thousands, or even a thousand, hunters hunting every opener. If there are not thousands of hunters doing this, it would do nothing to drastically reduce hunting pressure.
It is my belief, if you are going to be a Wyoming Game and Fish Commissioner you should have to be a hunter, and had a hunting license within the last two years. Is there one Commissioner currently on the board that is a hunter? If someone knows please answer that.
I heard WY G&F uses counts that are 1 1/2 years old when recommending quotas. I don't know if this a fact, but if it is, it is another example of poor management. I heard they do this because the NR elk draw deadline is January. It may have been a rumor.
How about required survey reporting, or no license for the following year?
Here are just a few random thoughts. I don't think cutting licenses where needed would result in F&G positions being cut because it still takes the same number of field personnel to cover areas regardless of how many hunters are out there. I also don't care for a pick one weapon and would hate to have to choose to only hunt with one of the 3 or 4 i use. Selfish---probably, but we all want to max our time in the field when some seasons are so short. Take New Mexico for instance wher there are numerous 5 day seasons and you can only draw one. It's lamost not worth going on a hunt that short with high gas costs and other associated costs getting so expensive. I don't have any stats to know whether many people hit a number of openers, which in turn, would increase the hunters in a given area beyond what might make a good, quality hunt. I do think your statement regarding the Commissioners is probably a good one in that hunters should probably be in charge of the overall way the F&G is run. However, the problem with that is that the F&G Departments in most of the states are now charged with so much other stuff that IMO they can't really deal with just hunting and fishing effectively because of so many things they are dealing with. One last thing on game counts and that is that I think it would be simple to have mandatory reporting with hardly any additional cost to the F&G. In New Mexico if you don't go online and fill out your previous years success you are not eligible for a license the following year. There's no reason Wyoming couldn't implement that system quickly and cheaply with a little bit of software. I did it last year for NM and it didn't take but 3 or 4 minutes to give the F&G the information they needed to make informed decisions.
If I were the lord over Wyomings deer managment they would be managed like the antelope are, individual areas with seperate quotas based on the annual conditions. The only difference is there would be a number of choices, looking at each choice on the first draw, like Nevada does.
SMOKESTICK
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Teamhoyt,
I believe that the G&F Department has always managed the hunters more than the wildlife resources. I believe that is part and parcel to the way wildlife managers become over time.
Frankly, I see a lot of problems today because the G&F took their eyes off the resources. As TOPGUN has said, they have far too many demands on them currently. They are too quick, in my opinion, to state their statutory authority to manage all wildlife within the state. It seems to me that a G&F Department should place their emphasis on game & fish issues first and non-game last; however, that is not the order as it appears to me.
Whenever I get into discussions about wildlife management, it seems as though the Department doesn't have any of the data that I am use to using when I made management decisions. One thing that I think Utah got right was when they started managing by average age of harvest and set specific buck:doe ratio's as well as production rates.
WY SFW has talked about pushing for mandatory harvest reporting in order to hunt the next year. I use to get a lot of push back from the G&F but that seems to have waned. I believe that is a much better way to manage the resources, but that is what I was use to doing when I worked for Deseret Land & Livestock. It has always bothered me that every biologist that has a degree was taught how to age by looking at tooth replacement. When was the last time anyone had a biologist age their animal? If there was only one piece of data I could collect it would be age data. Ask any one else that has ever managed wildlife before and they will tell you this as well. It is exactly what the professors said at the mule deer meeting I attended in Pocatello, ID a few years ago.
All of this can be implemented, it only requires that sportsmen unite with a common purpose. If the G&F can keep us divided then we will never be able to hold them accountable. This is not to say the G&F guys are the bad guys only that they do become entrenched in the bureaucracy and sometimes need to be nudged into action.
I believe that the G&F Department has always managed the hunters more than the wildlife resources. I believe that is part and parcel to the way wildlife managers become over time.
Frankly, I see a lot of problems today because the G&F took their eyes off the resources. As TOPGUN has said, they have far too many demands on them currently. They are too quick, in my opinion, to state their statutory authority to manage all wildlife within the state. It seems to me that a G&F Department should place their emphasis on game & fish issues first and non-game last; however, that is not the order as it appears to me.
Whenever I get into discussions about wildlife management, it seems as though the Department doesn't have any of the data that I am use to using when I made management decisions. One thing that I think Utah got right was when they started managing by average age of harvest and set specific buck:doe ratio's as well as production rates.
WY SFW has talked about pushing for mandatory harvest reporting in order to hunt the next year. I use to get a lot of push back from the G&F but that seems to have waned. I believe that is a much better way to manage the resources, but that is what I was use to doing when I worked for Deseret Land & Livestock. It has always bothered me that every biologist that has a degree was taught how to age by looking at tooth replacement. When was the last time anyone had a biologist age their animal? If there was only one piece of data I could collect it would be age data. Ask any one else that has ever managed wildlife before and they will tell you this as well. It is exactly what the professors said at the mule deer meeting I attended in Pocatello, ID a few years ago.
All of this can be implemented, it only requires that sportsmen unite with a common purpose. If the G&F can keep us divided then we will never be able to hold them accountable. This is not to say the G&F guys are the bad guys only that they do become entrenched in the bureaucracy and sometimes need to be nudged into action.
your right about sportsmen not being united, and thats why it is like it is. I do question the mandatory reporting part though, would that do much good when the deer managment is general season over the counter? I was told that they will not reduce the nonresident quotas, and general season resident OTC seems here to stay. The excuse for the young age harvest is always "the rough winters", and the Game and fish says buck to doe ratios are extremely high most everywhere.
SMOKESTICK
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Piper,
One reason to have mandatory harvest reporting would be to collect teeth from harvested game animals. The G&F could then age the teeth of the harvested animals and obtain an average age of harvest. This would help when it comes time to determine overall health of a specific hunt area.
I know that some have asked the G&F to implement a three point or better rule. Basically, this would allow protection of yearling bucks their first hunting season. We have asked that youth hunters be allowed to harvest any deer, while restricting others to three point or better. This would go a long way in increasing the average age of harvest if hunters would simply refrain from killing yearling bucks.
I have often asked the WY G&F Commissioner's why it was important to have mature big horn sheep (rams) around to teach young, adolescent rams how to act as big horn sheep and not so for any other wildlife (ungulate) species? Most often, all I get is a blank stare in return. I have not asked those which were recently appointed, but in the past they didn't get it.
Personally, I also believe the G&F is not aggressive enough nor willing to admit that predators do have an impact on mule deer (and sage grouse) populations.
Most areas where high buck:doe ratio's exist are from wintering areas where some portion of bucks were protected from public hunters by entering private lands, only to return to public lands in time for the post season counts to be conducted. I know areas in Region K where buck:doe ratio's are almost 1:1 and the surrounding public lands are much less. I would guess somewhere in the 7 bucks per 100 does would be the average preseason ratio on surrounding public lands. When the G&F does their post season counts, they are getting somewhere around 30-35 bucks per 100 does. Then they turn around and ask where else can you have an OTC season and have that kind of buck:doe ratio's? No where else does it occur, that I am aware of, but that could happen elsewhere.
One reason to have mandatory harvest reporting would be to collect teeth from harvested game animals. The G&F could then age the teeth of the harvested animals and obtain an average age of harvest. This would help when it comes time to determine overall health of a specific hunt area.
I know that some have asked the G&F to implement a three point or better rule. Basically, this would allow protection of yearling bucks their first hunting season. We have asked that youth hunters be allowed to harvest any deer, while restricting others to three point or better. This would go a long way in increasing the average age of harvest if hunters would simply refrain from killing yearling bucks.
I have often asked the WY G&F Commissioner's why it was important to have mature big horn sheep (rams) around to teach young, adolescent rams how to act as big horn sheep and not so for any other wildlife (ungulate) species? Most often, all I get is a blank stare in return. I have not asked those which were recently appointed, but in the past they didn't get it.
Personally, I also believe the G&F is not aggressive enough nor willing to admit that predators do have an impact on mule deer (and sage grouse) populations.
Most areas where high buck:doe ratio's exist are from wintering areas where some portion of bucks were protected from public hunters by entering private lands, only to return to public lands in time for the post season counts to be conducted. I know areas in Region K where buck:doe ratio's are almost 1:1 and the surrounding public lands are much less. I would guess somewhere in the 7 bucks per 100 does would be the average preseason ratio on surrounding public lands. When the G&F does their post season counts, they are getting somewhere around 30-35 bucks per 100 does. Then they turn around and ask where else can you have an OTC season and have that kind of buck:doe ratio's? No where else does it occur, that I am aware of, but that could happen elsewhere.
I have said for some time that a mandatory report be required or you don't hunt the following year, so I'm with you there! NM has an easy system and there is no reason it couldn't be implemented at little cost to the WY F&G budget. I really wonder how they come up with those counts and ratios because that's not what I see. I have hunted public land out in WY almost every year since 1992 and I have only had one animal checked for age and measurements out in the field by a biologist. That was a pronghorn buck I shot in 2003. The Game Warden for our area is also a biologist and, although he stops at our camp a lot of times if we happen to be in, he has never even asked us what we have harvested or made any attempt to look or age any animal we've had hanging. That seems very strange when he has told me more than once that he enjoys the biologist work much more than the enforcement part of his dual job title. I have really begun to wonder if a lot bigger percentage of mulie bucks are going nocturnal as they reach maturity than most people, including myself, think. The reason I say that is because I see a bunch of nice young bucks a lot of times during the September archery elk season and even most of them disappear during shooting hours when the October season rolls around. I don't think hunting pressure has that much to do with it either because our area doesn't get much human pressure. I know Tom does a lot of his count studies on his horse in order to cover more territory and he does a lot of it on the private ranches. He has come right out and told me that is why he has to really stay in tight with them in order to do that work because they don't have to let him on their property. If most of his data is collected on those ranches where the hunting and hunters are tightly controlled, I can see why the numbers would really be different than the public lands we hunt. I wonder if that's just how Tom works or if it's representative of the way a lot of the numbers we read are obtained throughout the state.
We all can't have what we want. Hunters want to spend as much time in the field as we can, this increases pressure from the masses for extended periods of time going into winter. Outfitters want long seperate seasons so they can take more clients. G&F wants money. If there is no give and take where will we be in 10 years. I came from North Dakota 12 years ago. I personally like their system. every unit in the state is limited quota for rifle. You must apply for a unit and a speicies and a sex, if you don't draw you don't hunt with a gun unless you get a left over tag(mostly for does). muzzleloader is a state wide tag for whitetail deer only, you draw for this as well. If you archery hunt you can buy a tag over the counter as a resident, again statewide unit. Non residents can apply through a draw for an any deer tag or buy a whitetail only bow tag across the counter. The mule deer population trends up and down based on several factors, but since the early 90's the age class of the bucks has grown substantially and continues to do so today. If Wyoming went to a system like this would it help or hinder. Regardless of our different opinions, there are options, please everyone, no NOT going to happen. I for one think its a shame when the potential to have a healthy mature herd is looking you in the face and that oppurtunity is passed on for money or so everyone can hunt all the time or for whatever reason there is. One thing is for certian, sacrifices of some sort will have to be made to get to a better place. Lots of us cuss private land owners for not allowing us to hunt when we see all them big critters in the field, but if it wasn't for this our populations would surely falter.
PleaseDear
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Very interesting and informative last 4-5 post's fella's...
Thanks---
Have a good and safe wknd,
Robb
Thanks---
Have a good and safe wknd,
Robb
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